It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[smashdn]

9 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

That may be but that's after the fact.

 

My view was that because of the divot(?) he likely took a much more conservative route and hit the middle of the green thinking maybe he makes a 40 foot putt,,,,,,,,,, instead of shooting for the pin.

 

But if he takes the 1 shot unplayable he now has to hole the next shot from the fairway to tie.

 

Which play would you think has a better shot at making birdie ?

 

Which would YOU do ? I know what I would've done. 

 

I'll answer this two ways because I think both are important and valid.

 

First, in the context of my own game, keeping in mind I am like a 13 cap, I am not playing in MacKenzie tour qualifying events.  I would play it down and depending upon the lie either try for the front of the green and roll it on or for a spot in front of the green where I could pitch it up and have a good opportunity at getting up and down.  Aggressive I guess but allowing for the fact I am more than likely not going to be on the green.  If I am being honest, I am equally not as likely to being on the green with a shot from that distance from the fairway.

 

Now in the context of, lets assume a scratch a player's game, if the lie really was that bad where I felt the ball would behave with so much uncertainty, I would take the drop.  Hitting the ball from such a lie might bring OB or another unplayable scenario into play.  I have confidence with a good lie I can get on the green and no worse than two putt.  If I can chip or pitch it from the divot down the fairway to a yardage I do that.  Chop it out and get it closer to the hole as long as there is no trouble along the path and I feel reasonably certain I can get a club on the ball and get it going the direction I want.

 

I didn't go back and read the particulars of that situation regarding the scores.  If he needed birdie from the divot to win or tie or whatever I am of the mindset that from the distance he was at it was not likely based upon the SG data.  Scoring well from the divot or fairway in that scenario was not a forgone conclusion.  If you have to have birdie you play it from the divot.  If you have to have birdie the divot didn't sink your chances either though.

 

What do they say about games lost on a referees call at the last or a missed buzzer beater?  If you leave it in the hands of the ref or have to have that shot fall at the end, there was likely a missed opportunity earlier that put you or the team in that scenario.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

If you have to have birdie you play it from the divot.

 

Thanks, our little sub-discussion was about Lee Westwood's situation on the 72nd hole and whether or not he played it safely.

 

He did the latter (IMO).

 

I was surprised because one would think Westwood's 20+ years on Tour(s) have made him very comfortable $$$-wise and the trophy would/should(?) have been more important than the difference in $ between 1st and 2nd place.

 

Of course I have no idea what Westwood's finances really are but that's what I would've been thinking.

[cliche]

pros should not get a relief from a divot. whats next? relief from a plugged bunker lie? relief from an embedded ball?
just freaking play as it lies or take a drop with a penalty stroke if you dont like it, just like us amateurs

[davep043]

19 hours ago, cliche said:

relief from an embedded ball?

Perhaps you're not aware, we already get relief from an embedded ball in the General Area.

[3whacker]

here we are in a urinating match on wether pros should get relief from divots....but yet today at the Byron Nelson, they are playing LIFT, CLEAN and PLACE....anyone else see the irony in that

 

 

You cant have it both ways...either they play the ball down and dirty or you let them put their hand on it

[davep043]

15 hours ago, 3whacker said:

here we are in a urinating match on wether pros should get relief from divots....but yet today at the Byron Nelson, they are playing LIFT, CLEAN and PLACE....anyone else see the irony in that

 

 

You cant have it both ways...either they play the ball down and dirty or you let them put their hand on it

I think the bulk of this discussion has been about changing the Rules of Golf, not just having a "divot rule" for Tour pros.  The PGA Tour, and all the rest, play under the Rules of Golf, they don't make up their own rules.  The Rules of Golf specifically outline a Model Local Rules for preferred lies, and the PGA Tour chooses to utilize that Local Rule at times.  I see absolutely zero irony, the players this week are under the Rules of Golf.  I think the Tour probably over-uses the Local Rule, but that's a separate discussion.

[smashdn]

Dave,

 

I was coming at you with both barrels until you said they overuse it in your last sentence.

[BURKMI19]

On 5/11/2021 at 12:22 PM, cliche said:

pros should not get a relief from a divot. whats next? relief from a plugged bunker lie? relief from an embedded ball?
just freaking play as it lies or take a drop with a penalty stroke if you dont like it, just like us amateurs

I think your reaction might be an overreaction.  We aren't considering a hazard condition which you get with a bunker, being in the bunker is the risk which someone takes (IE going for the green or challenging a carry of a fairway bunker off the tee).  And actually embedded ball does have a relief rule.  Now in the spirit of fairness, I feel that the fairway should be just that "FAIR", a player should be rewarded for being in proper position "in the short grass" and much like on the putting green they shouldn't be penalized for the course in front of them being in not appropriate condition.

Getting relief from an actual divot in the fairway, which we can all agree is actually pretty recognizable, is not an unreasonable rule to adjust.  Remember, the "play it as it lies" concept is really old and players years ago with old equipment didn't dig up the turf like is done now.  

Really to institute the divot relief rule, what they would want to do is track tour and other events to see how many times players end up in a divot and need a couple minutes to get relief.  I would imagine it actually isn't all that frequent of an occurrence.  

[JaNelson38]

The problem you have with automatic relief from divots is that a player can completely change the circumstances of their shot, even if they have to replace within a club length or two of where their ball is.

 

Take for example:  you're playing on a fairway that slopes from one way to the other, and your ball comes to rest on a divot at the base of a slope where the stance you will take will make the ball severely below your feet.  But, two club lengths away, you can place your ball where you'll have a relatively level lie and a level stance.  You've just gained a huge advantage over other players playing the same hole by being able to basically place your ball wherever you want.

 

Then you get into the argument about what is a divot.  And make no mistake, pros will try to take advantage of it.  If a ball is in a small depression that kinda looks like an old divot but really isn't, they'll simply call it a divot and move it.  You'll have rules officials being called in pretty much every fairway at all times.  And a game that is already painfully slow on the tour level just became that much slower.  And keep in mind that the "fairway" with regards to golf rules includes areas around the greens, not just in the fairway 175 yards away.

 

LC&P is different because the goal is being able to clean mud off your golf ball, similar to the embedded ball rule.  And being able to tamp down a spike mark on a green doesnt take away the challenge of actually making a putt....you can't move your ball on the green.  

 

Are balls ending in divots bad luck?  Yep.  But this game has a lot of luck involved in it, as does every sport.  Being in the rough isnt the same from hole to hole.  Bunker lies can be good, bad, or indifferent.  Some 4-foot putts are harder than others.  You can't 'even out' the field when it comes to luck in sports.

Edited May 14, 2021 by JaNelson38

[davep043]

3 hours ago, BURKMI19 said:

Getting relief from an actual divot in the fairway, which we can all agree is actually pretty recognizable

I'd say we won't all agree, and that's been demonstrated over and over again in divot threads.  Some fresh divot holes are clearly recognizable, others not so much, due to depth of disturbance and repair and/or regrowth.  Assuming we can ever get past the basic question, does a player DESERVE a perfect lie if he hits a ball into the short grass, the rules would still have to define in words what constitutes a divot hole, and when a divot hole has either been repaired enough or has healed enough to no longer deserve relief.

Edited May 14, 2021 by davep043

[cliche]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:58 PM, davep043 said:

Perhaps you're not aware, we already get relief from an embedded ball in the General Area.

i know. i was was meant to be sarcastic. but when reed and rory (was it him?) got a relief in a tournament because the ball was a bit down in the second cut, that rule was taken to far. imo, pros got a little spoiled over course conditions and how manicured they are.

[pgatw]

Late to the thread. Should we get relief from divots, no. Play the ball as it lies.

[JaNelson38]

43 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I'd saw we won't all agree, and that's been demonstrated over and over again in divot threads.  Some fresh divot holes are clearly recognizable, others not so much, due to depth of disturbance and repair and/or regrowth.  Assuming we can ever get past the basic question, does a player DESERVE a perfect lie if he hits a ball into the short grass, the rules would still have to define in words what constitutes a divot hole, and when a divot hole has either been repaired enough or has healed enough to no longer deserve relief.

This is a pertinent point.  And it encompasses more than just divots.

 

There are a lot of courses where just because you're in the fairway off the tee doesn't mean youre necessarily in a good spot.  What if your swing is hindered by overhanging limbs?  Are we going to allow relief from that too?  Like I referenced before....is the ball severely above or below your feet necessarily an advantage over a guy in the rough but on a level lie?  Augusta is a pefect example of this, where literally the only level lies on the course are off the tee boxes.

 

If relief is granted from divots, you start down the slippery slope of basically being able to place your ball wherever you want as long as its in the 'fairway'.

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, BURKMI19 said:

I think your reaction might be an overreaction.  We aren't considering a hazard condition which you get with a bunker, being in the bunker is the risk which someone takes (IE going for the green or challenging a carry of a fairway bunker off the tee).  And actually embedded ball does have a relief rule.  Now in the spirit of fairness, I feel that the fairway should be just that "FAIR", a player should be rewarded for being in proper position "in the short grass" and much like on the putting green they shouldn't be penalized for the course in front of them being in not appropriate condition.

Getting relief from an actual divot in the fairway, which we can all agree is actually pretty recognizable, is not an unreasonable rule to adjust.  Remember, the "play it as it lies" concept is really old and players years ago with old equipment didn't dig up the turf like is done now.  

Really to institute the divot relief rule, what they would want to do is track tour and other events to see how many times players end up in a divot and need a couple minutes to get relief.  I would imagine it actually isn't all that frequent of an occurrence.  

 

Was going to ignore your post since it's so hard to get through 1 "run-on" paragraph/post but the highlighted part caught my eye.

 

Surely you are aware that perhaps THE main precept of golf is "Play the course as you find it" ?

 

In point of fact, Rule ONE, very first bullet point says "Play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies". Don't think that could be more prominent.

 

Anyway, I suppose one can't blame you for not reading through 16 or so pages only to learn how difficult it is to recognize a divot nor how difficult it would be for the Rule of Golf to define.

[nsxguy]

52 minutes ago, cliche said:

i know. i was was meant to be sarcastic. but when reed and rory (was it him?) got a relief in a tournament because the ball was a bit down in the second cut, that rule was taken to far. imo, pros got a little spoiled over course conditions and how manicured they are.

 

I believe BOTH Rory and Reed ( a bit late ?) called over an official who agreed with the players that the ball was indeed embedded.

 

And sarcasm ------------->

[smashdn]

32 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Surely you are aware that perhaps THE main precept of golf is "Play the course as you find it" ?

 

In point of fact, Rule ONE, very first bullet point says "Play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies". Don't think that could be more prominent.

 

But, but, but, shouldn't we play the course the way it was found before anyone has a chance to play it that day?

 

Probably ought to take a break somewhere in the round and let the greens crew come out and cut and roll the greens.  Not really fair that the greens grow and they may get bumpy as the day wears on.

 

[reelop19]

Playing good shots from a divot is a state of mind for good golfers, especially professionals. How a golfer hits from a divot is a good indicator on if I’d enjoy a gin and tonic with him/her or not. 

[Soloman1]

I wasn't listening. Can you guys start over?

[nsxguy]

24 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

But, but, but, shouldn't we play the course the way it was found before anyone has a chance to play it that day?

 

Probably ought to take a break somewhere in the round and let the greens crew come out and cut and roll the greens.  Not really fair that the greens grow and they may get bumpy as the day wears on.

 

 

How predictable was that ?!?!?!

 

But, but, it took you a whole HALF HOUR. What took you so long !??!?!

[sui generis]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

Dave,

 

I was coming at you with both barrels until you said they overuse it in your last sentence.

 

The PGA Tour and other similar businesses are essentially sports-based reality TV. They are there to sell TV advertising, otherwise how would old white men know which car to buy or what ED pill to get. So, make it fun! 🙄

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, cliche said:

i know. i was was meant to be sarcastic. but when reed and rory (was it him?) got a relief in a tournament because the ball was a bit down in the second cut, that rule was taken to far. imo, pros got a little spoiled over course conditions and how manicured they are.

Why would Rory not get relief in the second cut if the ball was embedded? Do you know the rule 16.3 about embedded ball?

[BURKMI19]

On 5/14/2021 at 10:47 AM, nsxguy said:

 

Was going to ignore your post since it's so hard to get through 1 "run-on" paragraph/post but the highlighted part caught my eye.

 

Surely you are aware that perhaps THE main precept of golf is "Play the course as you find it" ?

 

In point of fact, Rule ONE, very first bullet point says "Play the course as you find it and play your ball as it lies". Don't think that could be more prominent.

 

Anyway, I suppose one can't blame you for not reading through 16 or so pages only to learn how difficult it is to recognize a divot nor how difficult it would be for the Rule of Golf to define.

"Was going to ignore your post"  or I love this "I suppose one can't blame you".  I'm so glad you aren't going to blame me for not knowing the USGA golf rule book verbatim.  And also, the benefit of it being a rule book is that the governing bodies (with input) would establish what relief from a fairway divot would be constituted as

 

It's not a difficult concept because we are really only talking about a few select situations occurring for legitimately getting relief:

         A) Sand filled

         B) Chunk of turf missing which my ball is sitting down in

         C) An old divot which someone tried to replace but clearly didn't regrow

 

Should I be penalized for hitting my tee shot in the "fairway" by being forced to hit out of a bunker-type lie because my ball is in a sand filled divot?  

Should I be penalized for hitting my tee shot in the "fairway" by being forced to hit my ball out of what is clearly an old divot.  My ball sitting down in a rut which is not naturally occurring but from someone else who actually modified my potential playing conditions.

I mean we aren't talking about dried out fairway, or the rough, or naturally occurring situations.  We are talking about "play it as it lies" or "play the course as you find it", but we also need to consider that everyone should get a proper lie in the fairway.  A man-made-divot from someone's golf club taking a chunk out of the turf is not difficult to determine.  I'm sorry it's not.  The rule should be adopted to allow for this.

 

Let's keep this witty banter going mate, I'm loving it.

Edited May 18, 2021 by BURKMI19
spellcheck

[smashdn]

25 minutes ago, BURKMI19 said:

everyone should get a proper lie in the fairway. 

 

Why?

 

25 minutes ago, BURKMI19 said:

A man-made-divot from someone's golf club taking a chunk out of the turf is not difficult to determine.  I'm sorry it's not. 

 

In the picture that has been posted a few times with the six divots, which ones should you get free relief from?

 

 

 

Also, you are not penalized for hitting into a divot.  You are penalized for taking relief.

Edited May 18, 2021 by smashdn

[nsxguy]

On 5/18/2021 at 9:08 AM, BURKMI19 said:

"Was going to ignore your post"  or I love this "I suppose one can't blame you".  I'm so glad you aren't going to blame me for not knowing the USGA golf rule book verbatim.  And also, the benefit of it being a rule book is that the governing bodies (with input) would establish what relief from a fairway divot would be constituted as

 

It's not a difficult concept because we are really only talking about a few select situations occurring for legitimately getting relief:

         A) Sand filled

         B) Chunk of turf missing which my ball is sitting down in

         C) An old divot which someone tried to replace but clearly didn't regrow

 

Should I be penalized for hitting my tee shot in the "fairway" by being forced to hit out of a bunker-type lie because my ball is in a sand filled divot?  

Should I be penalized for hitting my tee shot in the "fairway" by being forced to hit my ball out of what is clearly an old divot.  My ball sitting down in a rut which is not naturally occurring but from someone else who actually modified my potential playing conditions.

I mean we aren't talking about dried out fairway, or the rough, or naturally occurring situations.  We are talking about "play it as it lies" or "play the course as you find it", but we also need to consider that everyone should get a proper lie in the fairway.  A man-made-divot from someone's golf club taking a chunk out of the turf is not difficult to determine.  I'm sorry it's not.  The rule should be adopted to allow for this.

 

Let's keep this witty banter going mate, I'm loving it.

 

Firstly, my not blaming you was for not reading the 16 pages of THREAD here, NOT for not reading the Rules or knowing them verbatim. Reading is fundamental - hence the problem with run on posts.

 

Secondly, as for your "not a difficult concept", I'm not going to rehash everything that's been discussed previously.

 

You can read the rest of the thread and check out the pics of various conditions of what you, and others no doubt, would take relief from; after all they are used to be divots.

 

And then tell us how difficult (or not) a concept it really is. Your A/B/C doesn't quite cut it.

 

And finally (you're welcome BTW 🙃) - you're not talking about dried out fairway ? Why not ?

 

Shouldn't you get relief from dried out fairway ? After all, it's in the fairway - why should you have a dried out lie ? Aren't you entitled to a perfect lie every time ?

 

And while we're at it, those pesky mounds on the fairway aren't very nice. Why should you have to hit with the ball above or below your feet ? You hit it in the fairway, right where you were supposed to.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by nsxguy

[geesecougar2]

I tied my personal best this past weekend, and had to hit my approach out of a divot on 17. If I had to do it, so do the pros 🙃

[BURKMI19]

On 5/18/2021 at 9:33 AM, smashdn said:

Also, you are not penalized for hitting into a divot.  You are penalized for taking relief.

Ok so if you an I tee off on a par 4 and end up in the "fairway".  How am I not penalized versus you if I am in a divot and you have a normal fairway lie?

[smashdn]

6 minutes ago, BURKMI19 said:

Ok so if you an I tee off on a par 4 and end up in the "fairway".  How am I not penalized versus you if I am in a divot and you have a normal fairway lie?

 

We can make the exact same score from our respective locations or you can make an even better score.  You have hit into a challenging lie not one that penalizes you.  It's only problematic if you cannot execute the shot.  It is only a penalty (within the rules) if you want relief.

 

A penalty occurs within the rules.  What you are describing is rub of the green.

 

There are so many what-ifs that can occur in the general area and fairway.  What if my ball comes to rest against a stick in the fairway and I cannot possibly move it without moving my ball?  What if my ball bounds through a soggy spot caused by a leaky sprinkler head and picks up mud?  What if the ball is against a clump of poa annua in the fairway?  What if my ball comes to rest in a small pile of sand dropped from the gator while they are filling a new bunker?  What if I hit into an unmarked area of hard pan in the fairway?

[BURKMI19]

16 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

We can make the exact same score from our respective locations or you can make an even better score.  You have hit into a challenging lie not one that penalizes you.  It's only problematic if you cannot execute the shot.  It is only a penalty (within the rules) if you want relief.

 

A penalty occurs within the rules.  What you are describing is rub of the green.

 

There are so many what-ifs that can occur in the general area and fairway.  What if my ball comes to rest against a stick in the fairway and I cannot possibly move it without moving my ball?  What if my ball bounds through a soggy spot caused by a leaky sprinkler head and picks up mud?  What if the ball is against a clump of poa annua in the fairway?  What if my ball comes to rest in a small pile of sand dropped from the gator while they are filling a new bunker?  What if I hit into an unmarked area of hard pan in the fairway?

I think we are going in different directions here mate.  You are now throwing out situations which don't have any bearing on this conversation about divots in the fairway.  We are also using two different versions of the concept for "penalty".  You are arguing for an actual penalty for breaking the rules (IE penalty stroke) which is not what I am referring to.  I am using penalty in its form here meaning "to be put at a disadvantage" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penalize).  

 

1.  Executing a shot "successfully" out of a fairway divot no matter how big has nothing to do with whether it is "problematic" because anyone can do it.  The point is that it shouldn't exist within the rules, why even have a fairway cut of grass then?

2.  "Rub of the green" is referring to a ball being deflected or stopped by an outside agency like, not sure how a divot has anything to do with that.

 

If my ball is in a divot and yours is sitting normally in the fairway grass, how am I not at a disadvantage?  My ball would be sitting down, I potentially am restricted to which clubs I could use, I am restricted as to ball flight, I am at a disadvantage for how the ball will come out of the lie, etc

 

I have been "penalized" even though I hit my tee shot in the "fair"way.

Edited May 21, 2021 by BURKMI19
spelling correction

[davep043]

30 minutes ago, BURKMI19 said:

2.  "Rub of the green" is referring to a ball being deflected or stopped by an outside agency like, not sure how a divot has anything to do with that.

As there's no longer a definition for "rub of the green" in the RoG, lets look at Merriam-Webster for guidance.

Quote

Definition of rub of the green:  something happening to a golf ball in play that affects its course or status not caused by a player or caddie involved in the match

So I'd say that two balls ending up in somewhat differing lies after similar shots is indeed "rub of the green". 

 

You'd like similar shots to produce identical results, and this just isn't something that's appropriate under the rules.  Shots bounce in different directions based on a few inches difference in landing location, nearly identical shots end up behind a tree, or just clear of it.  Yes, the results of two nearly identical shots might favor one player over another, that's just golf.  There's no guarantee of identical results for nearly identical shots, nor should there be.   

And I think that @smashdn's examples are quite applicable to the conversation.  If you want to somehow mandate consistency in results from similar shots, you really can't do it for one specific type of misfortune while ignoring all other types of potential misfortune.  Equity in golf means treating similar situations similarly.   

[smashdn]

29 minutes ago, BURKMI19 said:

 

I think we are going in different directions here mate.  I know.  Don't use "penalty."  Penalty has a meaning in this context and it is part and parcel to the application of the rules.  That is why I used the word "problematic."   It is semantics but in this cause semantics are very important.  Hitting into a divot brings about a new and different (perhaps more) challenging situation.  They call that the lie.  You may get a good lie, you may get a bad lie.  There is nothing entitling you to one type or the other regardless of where you are on the course, save for the teeing ground, where you have control of your lie.  You are now throwing out situations which don't have any bearing on this conversation about divots in the fairway.  I disagree.  These situations are akin to a divot in the fairway.  Mud on the ball does not entitle you to lift and clean the ball (unless there is a local rule in place at the time.  In my situation I posed it would not.)  Unmarked hardpan does not entitle you to free relief.  A pile of sand dropped by the greens crew in the fairway does not get you free relief.  A ball against a clump of grass in the fairway does not entitle you to free relief.  We are also using two different versions of the concept for "penalty".  You are arguing for an actual penalty for breaking the rules (IE penalty stroke) which is not what I am referring to.  I am using penalty in its form here meaning "to be put at a disadvantage" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/penalize).  I understand.  I chose not to use penalty because in the whole of the thread there are conversations where penalty means exactly that, a penalty within the rules.  To the larger point, you can get relief from divots in the fairway, it is just not free relief.

 

1.  Executing a shot "successfully" out of a fairway divot no matter how big has nothing to do with whether it is "problematic" because anyone can do it.  The point is that it shouldn't exist within the rules, why even have a fairway cut of grass then?  What shouldn't exist within the rules?

2.  "Rub of the green" is referring to a ball being deflected or stopped by an outside agency like, not sure how a divot has anything to do with that.  Fair enough.  Call it condition the ball is found in.

 

If my ball is in a divot and yours is sitting normally in the fairway grass, how am I not at a disadvantage?  It is a disadvantage if you want to see it as that I suppose.  Practically it may be.  In your mind it may be.  Why not just look at it as a situation where it is more challenging to get the result you want?  My ball would be sitting down, I potentially am restricted to which clubs I could use, I am restricted as to ball flight, I am at a disadvantage for how the ball will come out of the lie, etc

 

I have been "penalized" even though I hit my tee shot in the "fair"way.  

 

As far as I know, fairway does not exist within the rules.  Therefore there is nothing that entitles you to any type of lie within the fairway or rough or, in the case of Kiawah this week, a waste area.  If you get out of your head that you are somehow always supposed to be guaranteed a good lie just because you hit it in grass that is shorter than other grass this becomes sort of elementary.  It also will become clear as to why your ball resting against a stick that you cannot move is analogous to a divot.