It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[Dollarz]

The argument from the "traditionalists" of not wanting to upset the basic principle of golf is "play it as it lies" is BS. If that's the case play the ball against a rake, or plugged, or in casual water. Or don"t mark the ball on the green. There are many exceptions to the basic rule, this is no different.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, Dollarz said:

The argument from the "traditionalists" of not wanting to upset the basic principle of golf is "play it as it lies" is BS. If that's the case play the ball against a rake, or plugged, or in casual water. Or don"t mark the ball on the green. There are many exceptions to the basic rule, this is no different.

Lol…you just joined for that hot take?

 

If you want to play LCP at the time go for it.  
 

Oh, and welcome to wrx!😏

[NoTalentLefty]

Yes , I do.

[Naptime]

Works for me.  In our friendly games we do it anyway. Play immediately behind the divot.

[scotee]

But wait!...........How on earth can a mere mortal possibly discern what is a divot?   (posted in sarcasm font)

[Shilgy]

12 minutes ago, scotee said:

But wait!...........How on earth can a mere mortal possibly discern what is a divot?   (posted in sarcasm font)

Glad to see you read earlier posts and understand a part of the issue.

(no sarcasm needed)

[scotee]

37 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Glad to see you read earlier posts and understand a part of the issue.

(no sarcasm needed)

 

LOL. Read and understood.  Not rocket science. !0 second agreement between any two sentient players.

[OBbogey5]

What’s a divot? The way these babies pinch and pull at everything within the rules, I don’t want to see them squabble about more stuff on my tv. 

[Chunkitgood]

Some people just don’t get the nature of the challenge of golf, and probably of life, and the difference between the two, and probably never will.

 

BTW, the difference is, life is not fair, and golf is.  Some people want to keep it (golf) that way (fair).

[Titleist84]

How it's not ground under repair has always been a mystery to me. 

[iBanesto]

I can see DeChambeau having a "scientific" argument with the rules official about the definition of a divot.

 

😅

 

 

 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, scotee said:

 

LOL. Read and understood.  Not rocket science. !0 second agreement between any two sentient players.

In a group at home? Go for it.  In a tournament? Lol.

[Soloman1]

3 hours ago, scotee said:

But wait!...........How on earth can a mere mortal possibly discern what is a divot?   (posted in sarcasm font)

 

Are you an agronomist? If you’re not, how could you possibly know?

 

 

(Do you think anyone will get it?)

[Chunkitgood]

19 hours ago, Titleist84 said:

How it's not ground under repair has always been a mystery to me. 

Ground under repair so defined by course management, and I believe marked.  It is, as much as possible in human affairs, a previously and objectively defined course condition, a state of affairs of rare “fairness.”

 

If you had relief from divots, a divot would be whatever the least scrupulous player would deem it to be, a state of affairs that is manifestly unfair.

 

A set of rules for a game to insure competitive fairness needs to maximize objectivity and minimize subjectivity, to the extent that judgment calls are kept to a minimum if they cannot be altogether eliminated.  People being people, you need “trust everybody but cut the cards.”

[golfer07840]

On 3/7/2021 at 10:39 PM, tgoodspe1991 said:

Just finished watching today's coverage and was pretty bummed for Westwood to see his awesome drive on 18 end up in a divot... to me, it pretty clearly affected how average his second shot was.

 

With recent rule changes, golfers can tap down spike marks on greens and fix any blemish they choose. As we're seeing on TV, Pro's can apparently get free 2-club relief from just about anywhere (/s). Yet, if you hit a great drive in the fairway that ends up in a divot, you're screwed. Why?! It seems pretty dumb. 

 

Divots aren't the natural condition of the golf course, they are a "used" condition from groups ahead of you. If you're allowed to tap down spike marks and other blemishes on a putting surface that's in "used" condition caused by those same groups ahead of you, then why not allow players to take quick relief from a fairway divot? Also, if it's a rainy tournament and playing "lift, clean, and place", you're going to be able to move your ball from that divot anyway, so just make the divot rule universal. 

 

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's time for a change.

 

[bobfoster]

3 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Ground under repair so defined by course management, and I believe marked.  It is, as much as possible in human affairs, a previously and objectively defined course condition, a state of affairs of rare “fairness.”

Exactly this cit. GUR is designated as such by course management, and applies equally to all golfers on the course. A divot rule would be about as subjective as it would be possible to get.

 

I guess there are (sort of) two parties in this discussion, the traditionalists (like me), and those in the camp of the OP. Instead of saying "it's time", as though some universal consensus exists that needs to be codified into the RoG, I'd say "who in the world thinks golf was, is, or ever will be free of completely random shot results?" It is played in nature (a fundamentally random place), over by far the longest field of any sport, with immensely varied grasses, trees, hills, rocks, sand, water ... and in all sorts of weather. Sometimes you get good breaks, sometimes bad. Everyone gets them. Winners win despite them. And divots are so far down on the list of random, unfortunate things that can happen as to almost be unnoticeable.

 

Second biggest point (that others have made) is how subjective "divot" is. To write a RoG, the USGA/R&A would need to precisely define what one was. Some - especially fresh ones - are fairly evident. Most are not. What would the definition be? That the grass actually had to have been completely removed? Partially? Many divots are not clean ... what would define the "border" of a divot (@tungstenplug's photo on page two is simply superlative)? Further, what about "repaired" divots, are they divots or not? A divot in Florida where the person was polite enough to fill it with sand, a divot in the New York where the grass was actually replaced? You certainly couldn't "pinch" the ball against the turf like you would a normal fairway shot, but the ball also wouldn't be in some sort of hole. And how would you define the age of a qualified divot? Pretty much every course I play I see fresh divots, and middle-aged divots (the ground/grass has partially fixed itself, but it still is not close to being a normal fairway). At what point is a divot no longer a divot? The Rules bodies can't just say "okay, you can have relief from a divot". 

 

And the third biggest point (that others have made, but I'd like to amplify) is ... bigger picture ... W.T.F? I mean, maybe I'll hit into a divot every couple years or so. During a PGAT event, maybe two or three guys might find themselves in one. And get irritated because maybe they can't design a shot that tries to hit a wedge precisely 94 yards, and spin it back exactly 6 ... but in truth, reflecting back, a lot, if not most of the pros are only slightly damaged by being in a divot, in fact, a lot of the time they are perfectly fine. And for amateurs? Really, for anyone other than single digit cappers, the difference between being in one or not is pretty meaningless. The vast majority of golfers that played a round today are still trying to just not hit it fat or thin, off the heel or toe. 

 

So the Rules bodies should write what would need to be a ridiculously ornate rule, to cover a situation what affects a fraction of 1% of shots, that wouldn't even make a difference to anything but a fraction of a fraction of 1% of shots. 

 

Bottom line, IMO, on those rare occasions when you're in a divot? Man up and hit the damn ball. 😅

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by bobfoster

[JD3]

23 hours ago, OBbogey5 said:

What’s a divot? The way these babies pinch and pull at everything within the rules, I don’t want to see them squabble about more stuff on my tv. 

Even it some players get relief beyond the spirit of the rule, who cares? They're just dropping it back in the fairway anyway. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by JD3

[oikos1]

For goodness sake, a players "intent" is accepted and is part of the rules of golf yet identifying a divot is too "subjective?  Good grief.

[Titleist84]

36 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Exactly this cit. GUR is designated as such by course management, and applies equally to all golfers on the course. A divot rule would be about as subjective as it would be possible to get.

 

I guess there are (sort of) two parties in this discussion, the traditionalists (like me), and those in the camp of the OP. Instead of saying "it's time", as though some universal consensus exists that needs to be codified into the RoG, I'd say "who in the world thinks golf was, is, or ever will be free of completely random shot results?" It is played in nature (a fundamentally random place), over by far the longest field of any sport, with immensely varied grasses, trees, hills, rocks, sand, water ... and in all sorts of weather. Sometimes you get good breaks, sometimes bad. Everyone gets them. Winners win despite them. And divots are so far down on the list of random, unfortunate things that can happen as to almost be unnoticeable.

 

Second biggest point (that others have made) is how subjective "divot" is. To write a RoG, the USGA/R&A would need to precisely define what one was. Some - especially fresh ones - are fairly evident. Most are not. What would the definition be? That the grass actually had to have been completely removed? Partially? Many divots are not clean ... what would define the "border" of a divot (@tungstenplug's photo on page two is simply superlative)? Further, what about "repaired" divots, are they divots or not? A divot in Florida where the person was polite enough to fill it with sand, a divot in the New York where the grass was actually replaced? You certainly couldn't "pinch" the ball against the turf like you would a normal fairway shot, but the ball also wouldn't be in some sort of hole. And how would you define the age of a qualified divot? Pretty much every course I play I see fresh divots, and middle-aged divots (the ground/grass has partially fixed itself, but it still is not close to being a normal fairway). At what point is a divot no longer a divot? The Rules bodies can't just say "okay, you can have relief from a divot". 

 

And the third biggest point (that others have made, but I'd like to amplify) is ... bigger picture ... W.T.F? I mean, maybe I'll hit into a divot every couple years or so. During a PGAT event, maybe two or three guys might find themselves in one. And get irritated because maybe they can't design a shot that tries to hit a wedge precisely 94 yards, and spin it back exactly 6 ... but in truth, reflecting back, a lot, if not most of the pros are only slightly damaged by being in a divot, in fact, a lot of the time they are perfectly fine. And for amateurs? Really, for anyone other than single digit cappers, the difference between being in one or not is pretty meaningless. The vast majority of golfers that played a round today are still trying to just not hit it fat or thin, off the heel or toe. 

 

So the Rules bodies should write what would need to be a ridiculously ornate rule, to cover a situation what affects a fraction of 1% of shots, that wouldn't even make a difference to anything but a fraction of a fraction of 1% of shots. 

 

Bottom line, IMO, on those rare occasions when you're in a divot? Man up and hit the damn ball. 😅

 

 

So you're a traditionalist huh? Should we stop marking our balls on the green and go back to occasionally being stymied?  Just because something was done a certain way doesn't mean it should continue to be done that way.  

[bobfoster]

3 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

So you're a traditionalist huh? Should we stop marking our balls on the green and go back to occasionally being stymied?  Just because something was done a certain way doesn't mean it should continue to be done that way.  

Great! So you didn't have an actual answer to any specific point I made, so decided to do the high level categorization route. Cool! I'll respond at that level:

 

I've changed my mind! Those old guys should be gone and we should go all GenZ!!! All golf should be on YouTube with no commercials! And golfers should Tweet after every shot! And on YouTube, you should get to see five shots a minute, with dramatic music in the background! The announcers should be breathless! And this idea of competition is harmful - everyone should win something just for participating! We should turn this into a modern US progressive campus! (Actually - there is the new Voldmaort Tour where you can get that if you want it).

 

Also, we deeply need safe spaces. Golf shouldn't be "unfair". OMG! You're in a divot! I mean, I get triggered when I do that, I think we need a Committee where I can report that. 

 

Here's what I want the USGA/R&A to do: Acknowledge my feelings. I feel like needing to hit it out of a divot is just unfair and will require therapy - and if I have to, I think the USGA should pay for the therapy. I feel like I shouldn't really need to hit it out of the sand, because that reminds me of Africa and might be racist. And if I'm behind a tree? A foot wedge should totally be allowed. I could hurt a tree for goodness sake. I think that might contribute to global warming! (Not sure how, but I'm pretty sure its a workable excuse these days.)

 

No dude, saying "play it as it lies" has no relation to stymies ... you can't justify changing a fundamental because something frivolous changed - would be like saying "baseball introduced the DH rule, so that obviously justifies changing the definition of what a foul ball means".

 

Shaming me ain't gonna work. I repeat, play it as it lies. If you're in a divot, just hit the damn ball. 

 

Anyone that whines about golf being unfair, is never going to be a very good golfer.

[tiderider]

6 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Great! So you didn't have an actual answer to any specific point I made, so decided to do the high level categorization route. Cool! I'll respond at that level:

 

I've changed my mind! Those old guys should be gone and we should go all GenZ!!! All golf should be on YouTube with no commercials! And golfers should Tweet after every shot! And on YouTube, you should get to see five shots a minute, with dramatic music in the background! The announcers should be breathless! And this idea of competition is harmful - everyone should win something just for participating! We should turn this into a modern US progressive campus! (Actually - there is the new Voldmaort Tour where you can get that if you want it).

 

Also, we deeply need safe spaces. Golf shouldn't be "unfair". OMG! You're in a divot! I mean, I get triggered when I do that, I think we need a Committee where I can report that. 

 

Here's what I want the USGA/R&A to do: Acknowledge my feelings. I feel like needing to hit it out of a divot is just unfair and will require therapy - and if I have to, I think the USGA should pay for the therapy. I feel like I shouldn't really need to hit it out of the sand, because that reminds me of Africa and might be racist. And if I'm behind a tree? A foot wedge should totally be allowed. I could hurt a tree for goodness sake. I think that might contribute to global warming! (Not sure how, but I'm pretty sure its a workable excuse these days.)

 

No dude, saying "play it as it lies" has no relation to stymies ... you can't justify changing a fundamental because something frivolous changed - would be like saying "baseball introduced the DH rule, so that obviously justifies changing the definition of what a foul ball means".

 

Shaming me ain't gonna work. I repeat, play it as it lies. If you're in a divot, just hit the damn ball. 

 

Anyone that whines about golf being unfair, is never going to be a very good golfer.

the quintessential american achievement ... forming a commitee  ... 

 

for the record, i'm with bob on this, tho i reserve the right to be unprincipled ... 

 

god bless america ... 

[Titleist84]

1 hour ago, bobfoster said:

Great! So you didn't have an actual answer to any specific point I made, so decided to do the high level categorization route. Cool! I'll respond at that level:

 

I've changed my mind! Those old guys should be gone and we should go all GenZ!!! All golf should be on YouTube with no commercials! And golfers should Tweet after every shot! And on YouTube, you should get to see five shots a minute, with dramatic music in the background! The announcers should be breathless! And this idea of competition is harmful - everyone should win something just for participating! We should turn this into a modern US progressive campus! (Actually - there is the new Voldmaort Tour where you can get that if you want it).

 

Also, we deeply need safe spaces. Golf shouldn't be "unfair". OMG! You're in a divot! I mean, I get triggered when I do that, I think we need a Committee where I can report that. 

 

Here's what I want the USGA/R&A to do: Acknowledge my feelings. I feel like needing to hit it out of a divot is just unfair and will require therapy - and if I have to, I think the USGA should pay for the therapy. I feel like I shouldn't really need to hit it out of the sand, because that reminds me of Africa and might be racist. And if I'm behind a tree? A foot wedge should totally be allowed. I could hurt a tree for goodness sake. I think that might contribute to global warming! (Not sure how, but I'm pretty sure its a workable excuse these days.)

 

No dude, saying "play it as it lies" has no relation to stymies ... you can't justify changing a fundamental because something frivolous changed - would be like saying "baseball introduced the DH rule, so that obviously justifies changing the definition of what a foul ball means".

 

Shaming me ain't gonna work. I repeat, play it as it lies. If you're in a divot, just hit the damn ball. 

 

Anyone that whines about golf being unfair, is never going to be a very good golfer.

"No dude, saying "play it as it lies" has no relation to stymies"

 

Well you just proved my point.  Being stymied means you would have to play the ball as it lies and not have your playing partner mark their ball.  I also hope you don't mark your ball and clean it before putting, remember play it as it lies.

 

Also please spare me the ignorant hateful stereotypes.

 

 

 

 

[bobfoster]

1 hour ago, Titleist84 said:

"No dude, saying "play it as it lies" has no relation to stymies"

 

Well you just proved my point.  Being stymied means you would have to play the ball as it lies and not have your playing partner mark their ball.  I also hope you don't mark your ball and clean it before putting, remember play it as it lies.

 

Also please spare me the ignorant hateful stereotypes.

 

 

 

 

You called me a "traditionalist". On the freaking 150th anniversary of The Open, and actually used it as a derogatory term. You wanna come at me? You'll get it back. You have no idea what this game is, or its traditions are,

 

OMG!!! I called you a hatefull stereotype!!!! Please run away to your safe place. Everything with be safe and warm in your Mother's basement.

 

If you want life to be "fair", don't play it. It never will be. 

 

Or, you could just grow the hell up.

[Titleist84]

7 hours ago, bobfoster said:

You called me a "traditionalist". On the freaking 150th anniversary of The Open, and actually used it as a derogatory term. You wanna come at me? You'll get it back. You have no idea what this game is, or its traditions are,

 

OMG!!! I called you a hatefull stereotype!!!! Please run away to your safe place. Everything with be safe and warm in your Mother's basement.

 

If you want life to be "fair", don't play it. It never will be. 

 

Or, you could just grow the hell up.

I private messaged you so we can continue this that way no one else has to read your childish insults.

[Hawkeye77]

10 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

I private messaged you so we can continue this that way no one else has to read your childish insults.

 

Spitting coffee on this one, lol.

 

Getting in the childish insult while claiming to take the high road via PM to avoid the childish insults.

 

No way you can fix that "divot", haha. The sod has left the turf.

[QEight]

Who are affected by hitting from a divot hole?

• not the ones already rolling the ball, i.e. lot of the creational players
• not the ones playing on "municipal low maintenance courses" as they have (or should have) LCP anyway
• not the professional players as they 99% of the time seem to have no real issue with it

Who are left?

• "snowflake" players playing on higher level courses trying to play like a pro without a necessary skill

To me this is an issue that can be solved with already existing rules.

 

[JohnnyCashForever]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:54 PM, Chunkitgood said:

BTW, the difference is, life is not fair, and golf is.  Some people want to keep it (golf) that way (fair).

 

I'm agnostic about getting a free drop from a divot, but your interpretation of golf is off target.

 

Golf was never meant to be fair.  IMO, it's the perfect game, but it's not fair.  It's the perfect game because it models life.  Like life, it rewards hard work.  Yet, also much like life, it presents the player with never-ending challenges, unforeseen bad and good breaks, unfair rulings and surprising windfalls from a higher authority, and so forth.  And by doing so, it teaches the player to take the good with the bad, challenges the player to work harder and think smarter to overcome the bad breaks, and encourages perseverance.  That's golf.  It's perfect and unfair.

[tatertot]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:54 PM, Chunkitgood said:

Some people just don’t get the nature of the challenge of golf, and probably of life, and the difference between the two, and probably never will.

 

BTW, the difference is, life is not fair, and golf is.  Some people want to keep it (golf) that way (fair).

Whoever told you golf is fair lied to you. Big time.

[tatertot]

41 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

I private messaged you so we can continue this that way no one else has to read your childish insults.

Oh good, you found your safe place. Stay there.

[Titleist84]

44 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Oh good, you found your safe place. Stay there.

I see you found yours as well keyboard warrior.