"Lag" my first step for powerful swing progression

[chipa]

2 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

 I see this more as a discussion rather than instruction

  I don't think Chipa expects people to copy his swing

 

Nailed on the head, thanks a million.

[chipa]

4 minutes ago, Bocaji said:

1. There is contention onto the validity of your SS measuring device. It looks like a calculator.
2. Can’t see all the moving parts in your swing from said video, that would really be the telling piece (besides Trackman or something) as to whether or not you can actually generate that SS. 
 

3. and if that SS number is somehow right, then I’m pretty sure it’s due to your strength. And I know you’ve suggested it’s not possible to develop high swing speed with manipulations which brings me to point 1 and 2 again. 

 

1. It's an old radar I bought off ebay. Our club pro swung and it measured 110, he says that is normal.

 

2. You don't have to see the moving parts to see the clubhead speed I generated, plus I didn't regrip.

 

3. From what I have read a certain amount of technique is needed to reach high clubhead speeds, that's why you don't see football players generally in the 120's.

[chipa]

10 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

I realize that your legs are attached to your feet and your hips and they are supporting your mid and upper torso - and your feet are in contact with the ground which is providing ample friction - but I'm just not seeing where your legs are doing much more than a little weak kneed shuffle-swivel move under your butt. I don't get the sense that there is any drive coming from your gluts - maybe that's why your legs look so lax and uninvolved. Or, maybe the highly unorthodox use of the arms and hands (which I can't get out of my mind) are throwing me off. I can't unsee it!    

 

    

 

 

I posted a second video where I don't regrip based on yours and others advice - get up to date haha.

 

BTW. My only real point about my legs is they must resist the ground effectively, not that I have superior leg drive.

 

Not only that I'm not promoting my technique only that one should feel the resistance of the rotation of the club in order to generate good clubhead speed, like preloading in other sports.

 

If I was promoting my particular technique I wouldn't be interested in making changes to my swing.  But as you can see my right hand does not come off in the second swing since I have lowered my right hand slightly to take into account my lower right shoulder. Also, since then I have been working on weakening my grip so that I can only see between 2.5 and 3 knuckles, which is a significant change.

Edited March 29, 2021 by chipa

[GreatStrike]

I guess your subject title "Lag" my first step for powerful swing progression was thrown out the window pretty much from the get-go, wasn't it?

 

[chipa]

Just now, Nail_It said:

I guess your subject title "Lag" my first step for powerful swing progression was thrown out the window pretty much from the get-go, wasn't it?

 

 

I still think feeling the resistance to the club rotating is important to progressing in terms of clubhead speed.

 

 

[GreatStrike]

1 minute ago, chipa said:

 

I still think feeling the resistance to the club rotating is important to progressing in terms of clubhead speed.

 

 

 

Club rotating about what - its axis? Or, rotating about the CoM?  

[chipa]

5 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

 

Club rotating about what - its axis? Or, rotating about the CoM?  

 

Rotating about my hands and quite possibly my arms rotating from the shoulders. Its the same feeling of resistance that one would feel throwing a baseball my friend.

[GreatStrike]

The more I try to make sense of what you're saying about your golf swing move, the more confused I get. I never did really understand!  

 

PS - I'm told that Mike Malaska wants to do an instruction video with you.      

[SPIF]

53 minutes ago, miamistomp said:

 I see this more as a discussion rather than instruction

  I don't think Chipa expects people to copy his swing

I don't see it as either.  It appears to be ramblings that are difficult at best to follow, and completely ignoring requests to clarify.  

 

Being in excellent shape does not equate to solid golf swing fundamentals or a strong physics and kinesiology acumen.  That's confusing expertise in one subject as freely transferrable to other unrelated subjects.

[chipa]

14 minutes ago, Nail_It said:

The more I try to make sense of what you're saying about your golf swing move, the more confused I get. I never did really understand!  

 

PS - I'm told that Mike Malaska wants to do an instruction video with you.      

 

Your homemade physics is probably the problem. 😉

[Bocaji]

2 minutes ago, SPIF said:

I don't see it as either.  It appears to be ramblings that are difficult at best to follow, and completely ignoring requests to clarify.  

 

Being in excellent shape does not equate to solid golf swing fundamentals or a strong physics and kinesiology acumen.  That's confusing expertise in one subject as freely transferrable to other unrelated subjects.

The whole basis of his knowledge of the golf swing seems to be predicated on his aforementioned swing speed of 100mph and the claims that it is physically impossible to generate such speed with manipulation (big muscles). I think one can definitely generate speed using muscular effort but golf isn’t just about SS right? Can’t imagine a swing that looks like that being very consistent.

[miamistomp]

1 minute ago, Bocaji said:

The whole basis of his knowledge of the golf swing seems to be predicated on his aforementioned swing speed of 100mph and the claims that it is physically impossible to generate such speed with manipulation (big muscles). I think one can definitely generate speed using muscular effort but golf isn’t just about SS right? Can’t imagine a swing that looks like that being very consistent.

 Consistent is another issue

 

 His home made journey is interesting

 

Here is no single way to swing

[GreatStrike]

I'm curious to know what chipa feels is holding him back being a 15 handicapper. It certainly isn't lack of clubhead speed!     

[chipa]

7 minutes ago, Bocaji said:

The whole basis of his knowledge of the golf swing seems to be predicated on his aforementioned swing speed of 100mph and the claims that it is physically impossible to generate such speed with manipulation (big muscles). I think one can definitely generate speed using muscular effort but golf isn’t just about SS right? Can’t imagine a swing that looks like that being very consistent.

 

With all due respect I did not say I understood the swing completely nor did I promote my swing as a model, in fact I posted my video due to someone challenging me and I knew it had big flaws.

 

Furthermore, I have been taking people's advice and posted a second swing video where my right hand does not come off. Since then I've weakended my grip as well so it should be apparent I'm not promoting my swing method.

 

I am only saying understanding feeling the resistance to the rotation of the club is important because it helps load the muscles and tendons, just like the loading in other sports that I have repeated many times all ready.

 

 

[chipa]

Just now, Nail_It said:

I'm curious to know what chipa feels is holding him back being a 15 handicapper. It certainly isn't lack of clubhead speed!     

 

Did you look at the second video?

 

Did you also see that I am weakening my grip?

 

At least get up to speed before responding.

[GreatStrike]

8 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Did you look at the second video?

 

Did you also see that I am weakening my grip?

 

At least get up to speed before responding.

 

So, do I understand your response correctly - that your newly revised golf swing as seen in the 2nd video (where you keep both hands together on the grip and are working on weakening your grip) is now in shape to move into single digits and beyond. Cool! 

[GreatStrike]

42 minutes ago, chipa said:

Your homemade physics is probably the problem. 😉

 

Homemade physics? I've never heard of them before. How are physics made? I'll have to try some if I can find them. I'll ask around...   

[Scyukon]

Just joined the forum today, and found this thread. All i can say is Chipa is ripped! I’m 55 as well, was well built up.mid 20s, but now after 30 years of life about 70 lbs overweight, and so to see how ripped Chipa is, is awesome! Congrats, you are one disciplined individual!

 

i too am a civil engineer and have tried every swing under the sun over the last 40 years and still chasing lag. Was doing different versions of Mike Austin over the years (first Mike Dunaway, then Dan Shauger) and had some success distance wise, but lacked direction control to score effectively so abandoned it.

 

Oddly enough, the most powerful and accurate swing i ever had was 20 years ago with a homemade version that looked much like Matthew Wolff does today. I very stupidly gave up on it because it looked so goofy and i wanted my swing to look “normal”. I wish the phrase “swing your swing” was around then. So keep up the good fight Chipa in your search for more distance.

 

My newest attempt is to learn ground forces using the zen GRF board which is due to arrive today. I have never seen ground force explained in this manner and now understand why i have been straitening up at impact (one instructor used the phrase “humping the goat” lol). At any rate, may be something for you to study Chipa as you are obviously a very strong dude so if you can learn a bit more about kinetic sequencing you can get back to ripping some 309 yarders. Good luck!

[TheDeanAbides]

7 hours ago, Scyukon said:

Just joined the forum today, and found this thread. All i can say is Chipa is ripped! I’m 55 as well, was well built up.mid 20s, but now after 30 years of life about 70 lbs overweight, and so to see how ripped Chipa is, is awesome! Congrats, you are one disciplined individual!

 

i too am a civil engineer and have tried every swing under the sun over the last 40 years and still chasing lag. Was doing different versions of Mike Austin over the years (first Mike Dunaway, then Dan Shauger) and had some success distance wise, but lacked direction control to score effectively so abandoned it.

 

Oddly enough, the most powerful and accurate swing i ever had was 20 years ago with a homemade version that looked much like Matthew Wolff does today. I very stupidly gave up on it because it looked so goofy and i wanted my swing to look “normal”. I wish the phrase “swing your swing” was around then. So keep up the good fight Chipa in your search for more distance.

 

My newest attempt is to learn ground forces using the zen GRF board which is due to arrive today. I have never seen ground force explained in this manner and now understand why i have been straitening up at impact (one instructor used the phrase “humping the goat” lol). At any rate, may be something for you to study Chipa as you are obviously a very strong dude so if you can learn a bit more about kinetic sequencing you can get back to ripping some 309 yarders. Good luck!

Look up the JuJu Swing on YouTube or Instagram. This 'goofy' swing had been gaining traction as taught by a previous longdrive champion, Brad Petterson. His daughter is 14 and drives it 300 yards using this method. 

[chipa]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Look up the JuJu Swing on YouTube or Instagram. This 'goofy' swing had been gaining traction as taught by a previous longdrive champion, Brad Petterson. His daughter is 14 and drives it 300 yards using this method. 

 

Swings like Juju's confuse many swing gurus because it doesn't fit their particular version of physics.

 

BTW, I don't believe this guy invented this particular way to swing someone showed me something really similar on a driving range back in the 90's.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

On 3/22/2021 at 1:02 PM, wagolfer7 said:

 

Really?  I don't think measuring clubhead speed was that common 25-35 years ago.  And you would of been swinging faster than the PGA players at that time.  I know it's the internet and all.  But calling BS.  

It was quite common for many who aspired to be more like Tiger Woods and ending up being more of a John Daly.

[TheDeanAbides]

30 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Swings like Juju's confuse many swing gurus because it doesn't fit their particular version of physics.

 

BTW, I don't believe this guy invented this particular way to swing someone showed me something really similar on a driving range back in the 90's.

He just refound it. Jimmy Bruen had a swing like this back in the 50s/60s. It's completely conventional minus the wrist c0ck and it works very well indeed. I've experimented successfully with it. 

[Scyukon]

6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Look up the JuJu Swing on YouTube or Instagram. This 'goofy' swing had been gaining traction as taught by a previous longdrive champion, Brad Petterson. His daughter is 14 and drives it 300 yards using this method. 

Thank you for this! This may be another lifeline (or at least give hope) if my current attempt at building a powerful repeatable swing with the zen board does not work. Who knows maybe I end up marrying the two. I have tried a number of times over the last 20 years to recreate what I was doing, because the added whip or lag was good for 40 yards then just as it is now (except instead of going from 270 to 310 then now it’s going from 230 to 270 but oh well Father Time is undefeated). The last time I tried last summer it worked for one glorious range session, and 9 holes on the course. The next range session it was completely gone again so it was off to the next theory. I had my son take a video of the glorious range session so at least I have that to study from and now JuJu.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Scyukon
Add video

[chipa]

25 minutes ago, Scyukon said:

Thank you for this! This may be another lifeline (or at least give hope) if my current attempt at building a powerful repeatable swing with the zen board does not work. Who knows maybe I end up marrying the two. I have tried a number of times over the last 20 years to recreate what I was doing, because the added whip or lag was good for 40 yards then just as it is now (except instead of going from 270 to 310 then now it’s going from 230 to 270 but oh well Father Time is undefeated). The last time I tried last summer it worked for one glorious range session, and 9 holes on the course. The next range session it was completely gone again so it was off to the next theory. I had my son take a video of the glorious range session so at least I have that to study from and now JuJu.

 

I see you looked at Mike Austin's swing but I would look at his stance and how he rebounded off the right side that adds tremendous distance and its what I do when I'm swinging well. As far as the other stuff he teaches he was just like every other teacher out there that understands bits and pieces but doesn't have the swing figured out completely. Also, I think he was way too focused on the mechanics of the downswing, he certainly didn't swing that way. Austin was no different than other instructors that would tell us they have the swing figured out, but the reality is they would all fail the established scientific method of proving a theory, which states that if anyone duplicates the methodology presented they will have predictable results, in this case a repeatable and powerful swing. Nonetheless, every swing theory up to now has failed miserably in that regard.

 

Here is a video describing Mike Austins stance if you haven't seen it before. When it's set up right you no longer worry about the legs, you just reach back until you can't anymore and feel the rebound off the right side. Of course one needs to have the correct hand and arms mechanics worked out as well of course, which in my opinion with the setup is 90% of a swing.

 

Here is a video of the Mike Austin setup which I use. It starts at 89 sec and ends at 3:10 where the instructor talks about how you can rebound off the right side. I feel this setup is essential to my clubhead speed.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by chipa

[TheDeanAbides]

20 minutes ago, Scyukon said:

Thank you for this! This may be another lifeline (or at least give hope) if my current attempt at building a powerful repeatable swing with the zen board does not work. Who knows maybe I end up marrying the two. I have tried a number of times over the last 20 years to recreate what I was doing, because the added whip or lag was good for 40 yards then just as it is now (except instead of going from 270 to 310 then now it’s going from 230 to 270 but oh well Father Time is undefeated). The last time I tried last summer it worked for one glorious range session, and 9 holes on the course. The next range session it was completely gone again so it was off to the next theory. I had my son take a video of the glorious range session so at least I have that to study from and now JuJu.

I found it very intuitive and easy to perform, but you have to get the sequence correct or you'll get stuck. 

 

Brad's a good guy and will look after you if you decide to dive in with both feet. 

[Scyukon]

Indeed i studied 3 versions of Mike Austin’s swing method  (Mike Dunaway, Mike Austin, Dan Shauger) and even they don’t completely agree over what he was doing. Dan Shauger claims that Mike Austin even changed his mind over his approach towards the end of his life so you are correct they did not have it all figured out. The Dan Shauger version relied (my interpretation) on hand flash speed caused by flapping the hands through impact (he called it scooping the ice cream). It worked great if you could time it but resulted in tremendous snap hooks when you did not.  The Mike Dunaway version used more body (likely similar to what you are doing and had a good training exercise using a rope connected to loop in the ground which taught the pivot motions he was using).

[chipa]

4 minutes ago, Scyukon said:

Indeed i studied 3 versions of Mike Austin’s swing method  (Mike Dunaway, Mike Austin, Dan Shauger) and even they don’t completely agree over what he was doing. Dan Shauger claims that Mike Austin even changed his mind over his approach towards the end of his life so you are correct they did not have it all figured out. The Dan Shauger version relied (my interpretation) on hand flash speed caused by flapping the hands through impact (he called it scooping the ice cream). It worked great if you could time it but resulted in tremendous snap hooks when you did not.  The Mike Dunaway version used more body (likely similar to what you are doing and had a good training exercise using a rope connected to loop in the ground which taught the pivot motions he was using).

 

One of the things I read that is also a the main point of contention between the "one piece" and the "left hand first" crowds is that Mike Austin initially said he got the left hand pointed back early in the takeaway(left hand first), but later on stated that he did not turn the left hand over(one piece). From my perspective Mike Austins setup with the hands a little farther forward generally require the left hand to turn over early and his videos seem to prove this. A lot of big hitters do this, like John Daly, etc. This is a marked difference from the one piece crowd which says the left hand does not turn and the angle is held in the back of the hand well into the backswing. What I find personally is that the one piece takeaway forces one make a more of an inside takeaway, which I can't do because it stresses my lower back. I am much more comfortable swinging around a firm right leg, hip and lower back. I do believe this is also a source of my power because it is inherently compatible with the Austin stance.

[Scyukon]

The I think you touch on an equally important item here as well - finding a way to swing pain free. I installed a simulator in my basement 5 years ago, signed up for the full Golftec package, and chased shaft lean like a crazy man, and completely buggered up my back. So i think the pain free swing should be as much a goal as the distance because when golf just hurts physically (on top of the constant mental beating that golf swing junkies endure), you just want to stop for 2 weeks then quit for life!

 

ps i just remembered that i have also studied a 4th Mike Austin method at https://hititlonger.com/ by Steve Pratt if you have not found that already in your journey Chipa. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Scyukon

[chipa]

43 minutes ago, Scyukon said:

The I think you touch on an equally important item here as well - finding a way to swing pain free. I installed a simulator in my basement 5 years ago, signed up for the full Golftec package, and chased shaft lean like a crazy man, and completely buggered up my back. So i think the pain free swing should be as much a goal as the distance because when golf just hurts physically (on top of the constant mental beating that golf swing junkies endure), you just want to stop for 2 weeks then quit for life!

 

ps i just remembered that i have also studied a 4th Mike Austin method at https://hititlonger.com/ by Steve Pratt if you have not found that already in your journey Chipa. 

 

I have 3 fused vertebrae from an accident when I was 22. My right shoulder is lower than my left because of my spine has an artificial curve. I suffer frequently from lower back instability. I also have bad knees.

 

Nonetheless, as long as I don't take the club too far to the inside and keep my right lower back firm I generally do not have pain. In fact I have more pain from sitting and not playing golf. Even with my small size and back surgery I reached 128 mph when I was 35-36. This has to be close to my maximum potential given my age and size so my mechanics sometimes works. Which I attribute to a solid stance and the hand and arm mechanics that keeps everything connected. I can also swing around 115 now if not more.

 

My advice to you from someone with back pain is never ever worry about the downswing nor angles nor handle dragging. Lag is important of course but it is not about impeding the hands from acting, only getting everything into position correctly on the backswing. That is why I started this thread in fact. Lag to me is feeling the resistance of the club rotating about the hands. In order to do this the right hand and forearm must be in the correct position with the shaft as well. Also, in order to get the right hand into position the left hand has to play along as well. My swing mechanics are left hand turns and pushes back and pulls down to start the swing and then I finisih by throwing my right hand through the ball. I swing my 6 irons in the 90's with this technique and the video I posted I reached 100, plus my grip improved because I didn't regrip the right hand - which I do when I don't get my left hand and arm pushed back like it should be.

 

BTW, reaching the left hand back behind the head and pulling downs to start is as classic a golf move as there is. In fact when I start my swing I remember to let the left hand control the club and get it into position to push back then I just rebound off my right side. I don't have any other swing thoughts nor mechanics to think about or do.

[GreatStrike]

44 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

Even with my small size and back surgery I reached 128 mph when I was 35-36.

 

chipa - How confident are you that your clubhead speed was 128 mph or anywhere even close to that figure 20 years ago? 

 

Do you realize that today (forget about 20 years ago) that only two PGA Tour Pros average clubhead speed of 128 mph or higher - Bryson DeChambeau and Cameron Champ?  Only three PGA Tour Pros ever even reached 128 mph in dozens of attempts (Bryson DeChambeau, Cameron Champ & Will Gordon)! Even Rory McIlroy never achieved 128 mph clubhead speed in 86 attempts, yet you claim to have done so! 

 

It is highly unlikely that someone aged 35-36 years old (having already lost some muscle compared to someone five to ten years younger) - and with 3 fused vertebrae that stands only 5' 5" tall with normal length arms for that height - to achieve 128 mph clubhead speed. 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Nail_It