How should golf view it’s past?

[TiScape]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

They should enact a 2 pitchers per game rule.  A 3rd in case of emergency medical event only ( carried out on a stretcher or breaking a bone etc ). That will surely see more batted  balls. 

Paying a pitcher $20+ million a year and have to pay him even if he’s injured… Not gonna happen. 

[TiScape]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

They should enact a 2 pitchers per game rule.  A 3rd in case of emergency medical event only ( carried out on a stretcher or breaking a bone etc ). That will surely see more batted  balls. 

They will lower the mound or move it back if anything. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.com/mlb-move-mound-back-too-many-strikeouts-home-runs-2021-4%3famp

Edited July 27, 2021 by TiScape

[bladehunter]

3 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Paying a pitcher $20+ million a year and have to pay him even if he’s injured… Not gonna happen. 

Well obviously pay them less. I mean it’s a win win.  Lol. If they only play every 10 days then they are worth less no ?   It’s that or watch the game die in the next 20 years.  I mean baseball with no hits is like nascar with no wrecks.  Or a cake with no eggs. It doesn’t really work.  A pitchers duel used  to excite us because it was a rarity.  

Edited July 27, 2021 by bladehunter

[TiScape]

Just now, bladehunter said:

Well obviously pay them less. I mean it’s a win win.  Lol. If they only play every 10 days then they are worth less no ?   It’s that or watch the game die in the next 20 years.  I mean baseball with no hits is like nascar with no wrecks.  Or a cake with no eggs. It doesn’t really work.  A pitchers duel issued to excite us because it was a rarity.  

Haha sure. I’ll get on the horn with the players union and get back to you! 😂 

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, TiScape said:

They will lower the mound or move it back if anything. 

That might be a solution. I lost count on where it is now , up , down etc.  

[bladehunter]

Just now, TiScape said:

Haha sure. I’ll get on the horn with the players union and get back to you! 😂 

Lol. Oh I know. They are too short sided to understand a smaller piece of pie is better than no pie.   

[TiScape]

6 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Well obviously pay them less. I mean it’s a win win.  Lol. If they only play every 10 days then they are worth less no ?   It’s that or watch the game die in the next 20 years.  I mean baseball with no hits is like nascar with no wrecks.  Or a cake with no eggs. It doesn’t really work.  A pitchers duel issued to excite us because it was a rarity.  

I watch over 100 games a year. Still quite a few hits and definitely not all HRs. But hey, maybe I just get lucky and watch the right games! 😂 

Edited July 27, 2021 by TiScape

[Arn]

Modern golf = Technology.

 

I’d be in no way surprised if old Tom was more skilled than Bruce or Colin.

[Arn]

Welp, I missed the boat, this is now a baseball thread. 

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, Arn said:

Welp, I missed the boat, this is now a baseball thread. 

Yeah sorry. And we know almost everyone here despises baseball now!!! You know “back in my day…” 😂 I’m done ✌

Back to the regularly scheduled program 😊 

Edited July 27, 2021 by TiScape

[Arn]

30 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Yeah sorry. And we know almost everyone here despises baseball now!!! You know “back in my day…” 😂 I’m done ✌

Back to the regularly scheduled program 😊 

I could talk about my Jays and Vladdy Jr all day long!

[TiScape]

3 minutes ago, Arn said:

I could talk about my Jays and Vladdy Jr all day long!

Awesome! He’s amazing!! 👍🏼 Just not here!! 😂 

Edited July 27, 2021 by TiScape

[Hawkeye77]

Should be viewed with respect, reverence, curiosity and in context. 
 

It’s really a part of the game, more so than the history and lore of most other sports are part of those. We play it all our lives and in ways common to all levels. 
 

Give me some good old golf stories or stories about time with a good bird dog and a fire and a nice comfy chair, oh wait, that’s either my living room or basement! 
 

 

 

[ATLgopher]

4 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

But you drop a young Mantle into the MLB and he puts up as good numbers as anybody. 

Sure, if he’s open to taking steroids 

[bscinstnct]

54 minutes ago, ATLgopher said:

Sure, if he’s open to taking steroids 

 

Mickey Mantle on roids put the ball on like Pluto

 

 

[ChrisL52188]

2 hours ago, Arn said:

Modern golf = Technology.

 

I’d be in no way surprised if old Tom was more skilled than Bruce or Colin.

Give the guys today the old clubs that Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer used, I think the new guys would have a hard time getting up to speed. 

[double_d]

18 hours ago, TiScape said:

Speaking of comparing players from different eras… Here’s a pic of the 1950s Lakers. We should talk about how they’d fare against the likes of LeBron and Giannis. I think #24 on the left could shut down Giannis! 😂 

One of them is probably named "Patches O'Houlihan"

[Uncle_Buck2]

18 hours ago, TiScape said:

What do you think the SS difference is?

Ben Hogan clocked 132 MPH with a Spalding radar, so I don't think swing speed would vary much. I would imagine Snead being somewhere in that ball park given his distance. No guarantees on the accuracy of the Spalding radar vs. today's Trackman but it would be hard to believe that it was too far off.  

[bscinstnct]

6 hours ago, pbuck said:

Ben Hogan clocked 132 MPH with a Spalding radar, so I don't think swing speed would vary much. I would imagine Snead being somewhere in that ball park given his distance. No guarantees on the accuracy of the Spalding radar vs. today's Trackman but it would be hard to believe that it was too far off.  

 

I don’t know the specifics but if you go back to the hickory shaft era, those shafts weighed a ton but had like a modern equivalent of a “senior flex” and must twist like a noodle if you swing with a modern swing.

 

So, you see him swing here, and it’s actually not slow, but consider how much effort it takes to just “ride” the flex. You can’t grip it and rip it

 

 

[Uncle_Buck2]

17 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I don’t know the specifics but if you go back to the hickory shaft era, those shafts weighed a ton but had like a modern equivalent of a “senior flex” and must twist like a noodle if you swing with a modern swing.

 

So, you see him swing here, and it’s actually not slow, but consider how much effort it takes to just “ride” the flex. You can’t grip it and rip it

 

 

Have you hit a hickory shaft before? They definitely are not a senior flex... They are like swinging a 2x4. Also, Hogan's swing simply was recorded at 132 MPH, that's not my opinion, that's what the history books say. 

[dbleag]

On 7/26/2021 at 9:21 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

Should be viewed with respect, reverence, curiosity and in context. 
 

It’s really a part of the game, more so than the history and lore of most other sports are part of those. We play it all our lives and in ways common to all levels. 
 

Give me some good old golf stories or stories about time with a good bird dog and a fire and a nice comfy chair, oh wait, that’s either my living room or basement! 
 

 

 

One of my favorite books is "Gettin' To The Dance Floor" by Al Barkow. 

 

It is a quick read with single chapters on many golfers who weren't famous enough for an entire book.  

 

Definitely takes me back in time.

[MtlJeff]

Golf like most sports should view it's past as these guys being the best in the world at that present time. Any comparison of eras you just need to factor that in, because guys who played in the 1950s aren't as good as the guys now. Some will argue they are, but basic commonly accepted things like capitalization of talent globally , higher wages etc...not to mention technological advancements, will simply produce better candidates. Some of the earliest athletes weren't even allowed to play against black guys let alone non-americans, so there's almost no argument for sports being well represented or fully capitalized several years ago, almost certainly there were far more chumps

 

There are very few (if any) economic rules that would say more candidates and higher paid wages will equal worse quality.

 

Furthermore sports that have clear athletic measurables you can usually see the progress over time. I remember reading how former Nebraska QB Eric Crouch ran a 10.4 100M in high school (no idea why i remember this, but he was my favorite player to watch in NCAA football). This was his second sport and he did it in high school. In 1914-1915 he would have held the world record LOL.

 

[smashdn]

On 7/26/2021 at 10:01 AM, MattyO1984 said:

My questions if I can are:-

1. Is that fair?

2. Should we consider that there is a modern period when golf, as we know it, should be considered as being played, if so when is that?

3. From what player or players should we look at and think, yeah, they could compete on the Tour as it currently is?

 

1. Not fair.  But you can't really change how some folks think.  You get the same thing in baseball.  Guys that had slews of complete games and even wins are sort of poo-pooed since the game was different then.  Four man rotation, no dh, deadball, etc.

2. I would vote steel shafts.  At that point you could swing out of your shoes if you wanted.  That would also capture the longest period of static equipment after golf became widely played, roughly 1930 to 1990.  Plus you PGA Tour came of age during that time too.  The rise of the professional golfer.

3. Bobby Jones, Hagen, Braid, Young Tom. 

 

The ability to have the accessibility to actually play the game is a big thing too.  Golf has not always been very egalitarian in nature how it is in the US.  (I can't speak to other countries aside from Germany where the perception at least, is that it is not an "everyman's game," but one played by "rich old men" according to some of my former German co-workers.  Most courses are private and to play as a guest you have to have a low enough handicap to do so.)

 

That being said, going along with your question 3, you may have players then that were "good" in some part due to fewer people actually playing the game.  Fewer "athletically-talented" people doing and more who just had the free time and wanted to gamble and drink (sounds sort of familiar still though).

[smashdn]

On 7/26/2021 at 7:12 PM, bladehunter said:

Well obviously pay them less. I mean it’s a win win.  Lol. If they only play every 10 days then they are worth less no ?   It’s that or watch the game die in the next 20 years.  I mean baseball with no hits is like nascar with no wrecks.  Or a cake with no eggs. It doesn’t really work.  A pitchers duel used  to excite us because it was a rarity.  

 

Does it have no hits because of the pitching or because of the [teaching of] hitting?  Why is no one embarrassed to strike out three times in a game?

 

The pitching dynamic changes when a runner gets on base but no one wants to do what it takes to get on base.

[bladehunter]

31 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Does it have no hits because of the pitching or because of the [teaching of] hitting?  Why is no one embarrassed to strike out three times in a game?

 

The pitching dynamic changes when a runner gets on base but no one wants to do what it takes to get on base.

Probably true. All swinging for the fence.  

[smashdn]

On 7/26/2021 at 10:00 PM, ChrisL52188 said:

Give the guys today the old clubs that Sam Snead and Arnold Palmer used, I think the new guys would have a hard time getting up to speed. 

 

I don't have any old balls to use but I can tell you from going back and forth from a Titleist 913 to either a macgregor or hogan persimmon driver on a reg flex steel shaft it is different.  You got to be dead nuts on with getting the ball on the face if you hope to get it to go anywhere.  It is humbling for sure.

 

Those guys played a "low spin" iron and wedge game too.  Lots of release and not as much hit, hop and stop.

[bscinstnct]

3 hours ago, pbuck said:

Have you hit a hickory shaft before? They definitely are not a senior flex... They are like swinging a 2x4. Also, Hogan's swing simply was recorded at 132 MPH, that's not my opinion, that's what the history books say. 

 

No, really? I just had read that the old hickory shafts had a flex similar to modern senior flex. And it looks like Jones is really trying to “hold” and manage the flex with that tempo. 
 

Amazing Hogan recorded at 132. But it’s a little hard to believe. I’m sure Hogan was swinging over 115 and probably 120+ at times. 
 

But 132 is faster than Jack or TW or pretty much anybody in history. 

[Uncle_Buck2]

27 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

No, really? I just had read that the old hickory shafts had a flex similar to modern senior flex. And it looks like Jones is really trying to “hold” and manage the flex with that tempo. 
 

Amazing Hogan recorded at 132. But it’s a little hard to believe. I’m sure Hogan was swinging over 115 and probably 120+ at times. 
 

But 132 is faster than Jack or TW or pretty much anybody in history. 

Keep in mind 132 was not measured during a tournament, TW was swinging around mid 120s in the 2000s era, so he could probably crank it up to ~132 if he was just spanking balls at a range like Hogan.

 

Additionally, I think that was just Jones' tempo. To be honest, I don't see him holding off anything, it looks like a normal full release to me, very Fred Couples-esque. Byron Nelson swung aggressively and played hickory shafts in his early amateur career, so I'd be hard pressed to believe his swing changed once he made the switch to steel.

 

It's all opinion I guess 🤷‍♂️

 

Article on Hogan if you're interested: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/if-ben-hogan-met-trackman#:~:text=Hogan with the driver clocked,“He was a machine.”

[gvogel]

39 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

No, really? I just had read that the old hickory shafts had a flex similar to modern senior flex. And it looks like Jones is really trying to “hold” and manage the flex with that tempo. 
 

Amazing Hogan recorded at 132. But it’s a little hard to believe. I’m sure Hogan was swinging over 115 and probably 120+ at times. 
 

But 132 is faster than Jack or TW or pretty much anybody in history. 

Interesting story about Jones.  He had a favorite hickory shaft supplier in either Kentucky or Tennessee.  He once went through 1500 shafts to find 1 or 2 that suited him.  His shafts were certainly not modern senior in flex.  More likely pretty darn stiff, responsive and as little torque as he could find.

[Shilgy]

On 7/27/2021 at 7:03 AM, pbuck said:

Ben Hogan clocked 132 MPH with a Spalding radar, so I don't think swing speed would vary much. I would imagine Snead being somewhere in that ball park given his distance. No guarantees on the accuracy of the Spalding radar vs. today's Trackman but it would be hard to believe that it was too far off.  

Seems odd a guy swinging 132 with the driver would hit 1 iron from 200.  Even with old balata and swinging for precision those numbers don’t match.