Is this a fair money game?

[PixlPutterman]

Money aside, is this game fair to all parties?

 

4some

 

2v2

 

3 handicap and a 4 handicap against a 5 and a 6

 

Match play best ball with pops

 

Seems to me the addition of pops favors the higher caps. 

 

I've never played match play with pops.

 

I shot 1 under on the front and they shot 39 each...and we're 1 up on the front from getting two pops and to my no pops.

 

I feel like it should be stroke play or remove the pops?

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by PixlPutterman

[jvincent]

Assuming the caps are legit it shouldn't matter.

[PixlPutterman]

I guess I'm not a fan of match play then I don't like beating somebody by five strokes which is more than our handicap differential but losing the game..

[Loki]

What is a pop?

[jvincent]

13 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

I guess I'm not a fan of match play then I don't like beating somebody by five strokes which is more than our handicap differential but losing the game..

And such are the vagaries of match play. Score doesn't matter. Your birdie to my triple is still only one hole.

[nsxguy]

Just now, Loki said:

What is a pop?

 

A stroke.

 

@PixlPutterman

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

 

You're playing a four-ball

 

IF those caps are your COURSE handicaps, as I read it, you'd first take 90% of your CH.

 

So it'd be 3, 4, 5, and 5

 

1st player gets 0, 2nd gets 1 shot on the #1 hdcp hole, 3rd and 4th get 2 shots, 1 each on the 1st and 2nd hdcp hole.

[GHIN n Juice]

Either everyone gets all their pops, or you play net off the lowest cap.  So, the 3 would be scratch, the 4 would get1, the 5 would get 2 and the 6 would get 3.

[PixlPutterman]

Okay then it's official I just don't like match play outside of straight up lol

[PixlPutterman]

9 minutes ago, jvincent said:

And such are the vagaries of match play. Score doesn't matter. Your birdie to my triple is still only one hole.

Which is pretty much exactly what happened and then they popped on two holes that we both got pars on which gives them birdies

[TwistedSister]

I play a good buddy of mine when we play.  He is +1 and I vary from 2-4.  We usually take one off the difference.  So mostly I get 1 per side.  Generally goes down to the last hole on each side.  Usually one will win one side, one the other, and the total is usually 1 up  either way. 

[TwistedSister]

4 minutes ago, PixlPutterman said:

Which is pretty much exactly what happened and then they popped on two holes that we both got pars on which gives them birdies

How often do you have a Triple at 1.9 cap.  At a 4...  I rarely have a triple. 

[PixlPutterman]

39 minutes ago, dhacker56 said:

How often do you have a Triple at 1.9 cap.  At a 4...  I rarely have a triple. 

Other way around, they got a double/triple on a par 5 and I got a birdie. Put me up one, we par'd out but their two pops swing it back their way.

[SylvesterLundgren]

Personally, I’ve never truly understood this “handicap system” and how many strokes you’re supposed to give etc. 

 

but for me, the people I have played with you got a mulligan off the first tee if you miss/rust. Then a shot a side.  IMO you guys are right near eachother (on paper) really no need for all these extra strokes lol but that’s my version of playing “straight up”. 

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, dhacker56 said:

How often do you have a Triple at 1.9 cap.  At a 4...  I rarely have a triple. 

Our ex-club champ made a triple on the 18th hole of the final round of this year's club championship which forced a playoff that he lost.

 

Tee shot OB, and chopped it around on his second ball. He's a +3 and probably hasn't made triple on that hole in many years. Golf happens.

[david.c.w]

2 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

Okay then it's official I just don't like match play outside of straight up lol

 

I get your frustration, but this is how it works.  All the time.  Everywhere.  The whole point of the WHS.

[LBB]

I generally dislike giving strokes for match play...but it's also how skins are determined for clubs.  So it is what it is.  I've benefited with skins where I made birdie on a hole I had a stroke on and also lost out on a skin where I was the only one to birdie a hole, but no stroke for me, and someone(s) else tied with a par and a stroke, or bogey with 2 strokes.

 

Is it "fair"???  I think if you play enough times it evens out so long as handicaps are accurate, but over the course of one 9 or 18 hole round you can find examples where golfers both played exactly to their handicap from a net score perspective, but one golfer may win 1up just because they took advantage of the holes they had strokes on most efficiently in relation to their opponent.

[2bGood]

I don't like giving strokes.

 

I like getting strokes.

 

The handicap system we have allows players of different abilities to have a competitive match, it is a nice option rather than searching high low for friends with the same ability. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by 2bGood

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, GHIN n Juice said:

Either everyone gets all their pops, or you play net off the lowest cap.  So, the 3 would be scratch, the 4 would get1, the 5 would get 2 and the 6 would get 3.

 

Nope.

 

If everyone got all their strokes the "other 3" would get their strokes on hdcp holes 4 and 5 where they are less likely to need them.

[nsxguy]

13 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

Other way around, they got a double/triple on a par 5 and I got a birdie. Put me up one, we par'd out but their two pops swing it back their way.

 

The "beauty" of match play is that one can have a blow up hole and only lose the one hole and still have a chance.

 

In stroke play, between 2 players very close in ability, a blow up hole basically ends the match right there,,,,,,,,,, unless the other player also has a blow up hole,,,,,,,,,, which, as has been pointed out, happens rather seldom.

[b.helts]

I don’t think I have ever gotten shots. I mean that literally in 30+ years of playing. 
 

But I’ve given hundreds, thousands of shots in all kinds of games with all kinds of people. 
 

The golf handicap system, while not perfect, is absolutely amazing.

 

Play better 😃

[GHIN n Juice]

12 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Nope.

 

If everyone got all their strokes the "other 3" would get their strokes on hdcp holes 4 and 5 where they are less likely to need them.

I don’t think you understand how handicaps work.  If the course rating dictates that certain holes are the 4,5, or 6th hardest hole then that is where the handicap should be applied.

[Schulzmc]

1 minute ago, GHIN n Juice said:

I don’t think you understand how handicaps work.  If the course rating dictates that certain holes are the 4,5, or 6th hardest hole then that is where the handicap should be applied.

The hole ratings are not the "hardest" holes but rather the holes where the poorer golfer is more likely to need a stroke. For example, our 10th hole (par 3) is a very difficult hole, but is rated #18. Most players, including the low handicap golfers, are happy with a bogey. Since even the better players get a 4, I don't need a stroke there. Hence the #18 rating.

[nsxguy]

Just now, GHIN n Juice said:

I don’t think you understand how handicaps work.  If the course rating dictates that certain holes are the 4,5, or 6th hardest hole then that is where the handicap should be applied.

 

Now I understand why you're "confused".

 

I don't think you understand how handicap strokes are allocated.

 

If you played somebody that was 17 strokes worse than you you'd be giving him or her 1 stroke on 17 holes.

 

So which hole would he/she be most likely to NOT need the shot ? i.e. the hole where he'd MOST LIKELY be able to compete with you straight up ? The hardest hole on the course ? Or the easiest one ?

 

Of course it's the easiest hole where he's most likely to be able to compete "equally" with you. So he gets strokes on all BUT the easiest hole.

 

Same principle here. The 3 is giving 1 shot to the 4. Where is the 4 more likely to NEED the shot ? #1 hole ? Or #4 hole ?

[GHIN n Juice]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

Now I understand why you're "confused".

 

I don't think you understand how handicap strokes are allocated.

 

If you played somebody that was 17 strokes worse than you you'd be giving him or her 1 stroke on 17 holes.

 

So which hole would he/she be most likely to NOT need the shot ? i.e. the hole where he'd MOST LIKELY be able to compete with you straight up ? The hardest hole on the course ? Or the easiest one ?

 

Of course it's the easiest hole where he's most likely to be able to compete "equally" with you. So he gets strokes on all BUT the easiest hole.

 

Same principle here. The 3 is giving 1 shot to the 4. Where is the 4 more likely to NEED the shot ? #1 hole ? Or #4 hole ?

You are just stating my 2nd scenario.  You are describing playing net off the low cap.  I’m saying they can do that, OR everyone gets all their strokes.

[GHIN n Juice]

6 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The hole ratings are not the "hardest" holes but rather the holes where the poorer golfer is more likely to need a stroke. For example, our 10th hole (par 3) is a very difficult hole, but is rated #18. Most players, including the low handicap golfers, are happy with a bogey. Since even the better players get a 4, I don't need a stroke there. Hence the #18 rating.

 
Okay, you got hung up on the semantics of the word “hardest”.  Use whatever word or phrase you like.  The point is that hole ratings are organized in such a way that a 5 hcp would get strokes on holes identified as 1-5 on the rating system.

[nsxguy]

Just now, GHIN n Juice said:

You are just stating my 2nd scenario.  You are describing playing net off the low cap.  I’m saying they can do that, OR everyone gets all their strokes.

 

And I'm explaining to you how strokes are allocated and why.

 

Per the USGA, everyone getting all their strokes is NOT a "fair" game.

 

Of course you can do whatever you like but everyone getting all their strokes is an advantage to the LOWER caps.

[jvincent]

The only scenario where everyone should get all their strokes is in a net stroke play tournament.

[GHIN n Juice]

Jesus, all I’m saying is there are different ways to play it.  I’ve played match play events several ways and they all work out fine.  The 2 most popular ways, besides scratch, that I’ve played are those noted above. 

[2bGood]

30 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The hole ratings are not the "hardest" holes but rather the holes where the poorer golfer is more likely to need a stroke. For example, our 10th hole (par 3) is a very difficult hole, but is rated #18. Most players, including the low handicap golfers, are happy with a bogey. Since even the better players get a 4, I don't need a stroke there. Hence the #18 rating.

I guess this is next level information - so most should ignore it....

 

But the actual handicap allocation is even more complex than that if done under the guidelines from the RB's (that clubs don't need to follow) 

 

- odds on the front and evens on the back (to account for nine hole matches)

 

- each three hole group should have a high, mid and low stroke hole (to account for hot and cold streaks)

 

-the final three holes of either nine should not include the lowest stroke hole (so that the strokes are still relevant and the match is not over)

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by 2bGood

[nsxguy]

17 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The hole ratings are not the "hardest" holes but rather the holes where the poorer golfer is more likely to need a stroke. For example, our 10th hole (par 3) is a very difficult hole, but is rated #18. Most players, including the low handicap golfers, are happy with a bogey. Since even the better players get a 4, I don't need a stroke there. Hence the #18 rating.

 

Welllllllll, yes and no.

 

At some point many scores were actually recorded on every hole, averaged and compared to par. That is what determines the holes rankings.

 

There are a couple of exceptions/recommendations that are often followed.

 

One exception to this is to make all the odd numbered ratings on one 9 and the even numbered ratings on the other 9.

 

To do this you may have to swap pairs of holes that are very close in rating.

 

Another recommendation is to try to avoid the 1st or 2nd hole, nor the 8th or 9th hole or EACH 9, a very difficult rated hole.