Status of private clubs in your area?

[Golferpaul]

On 12/1/2021 at 11:53 AM, Dr.Zevia said:

 Let's not forget younger people don't look favorably at the idea of a private clubs that aren't inclusive for everyone ect.
Wherever you may be, are the local private clubs starting to get hard up for new members?

Almost all private clubs are inclusive.  And I would disagree that younger people are any different.

 

Our club just maxed out for the first time since I joined 18 years ago and that was just after they raised the initiation fee to $125,000.   Now we have a waiting list.

[Woodridge]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:13 PM, Snowman9000 said:

@Dr.Zevia

The club I just left was in a county seat of 15,000 people in a county of 60K or so, but adjacent to the farther suburban counties of Chicago.  New owners took over, started making improvements, and In 2018 or 2019 they bought out an 18 hole daily fee course that is across a rural road from their property.  Then Covid hit.  Between the improvements, the extra 18 holes, and Covid, the membership jumped from "not enough" to 640 at last count.  And a lot of the new members are young and middle age.    Last I heard, they might have to start a waiting list.

 

Part of the explanation is that there are no other courses in the county.  There are a handful that are roughly a half hour drive in all of the various directions.  To me this is how it must have been back in the day, before all the courses were built (a half hour away) in the 80s/90s/00s.  You either joined the country club or you didn't golf.  I realize this is specific to this locale.

I recognize my club. I knew membership had gone up, but didn't realize the number. I typically play the 'new' course during the day when folks are working, but it's become a lot busier during the past couple years. They continue to make improvements on both courses and the facilities which is good. It will be interesting if they end up having a waiting list. I drive around 25 minutes to get there as the public courses near me aren't great and were over crowded, even pre-covid.

[charli]

private clubs in our area have stopped accepting new members. Dues have went up along with initiations taking a nice leap. 

[PuffyC]

On 12/3/2021 at 2:25 PM, ssf301 said:

For places like CA where the cost of living is so high and the cost of property is so high, I think the overall outlook is not good.  I believe private club membership in those areas will decline in the future and courses will be developed. 

I was in the LA area a few weeks back and got to talk to a few folks who live out there. I’ll just say they have some very different opinions on things and seemed downright hostile towards golf and golf courses in general. 

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, Woodridge said:

I recognize my club. I knew membership had gone up, but didn't realize the number. I typically play the 'new' course during the day when folks are working, but it's become a lot busier during the past couple years. They continue to make improvements on both courses and the facilities which is good. It will be interesting if they end up having a waiting list. I drive around 25 minutes to get there as the public courses near me aren't great and were over crowded, even pre-covid.

Yeah, if you were there in the bad old days, you could just drive up and tee off.  Not now.

[Robber6656]

15 hours ago, PuffyC said:

I was in the LA area a few weeks back and got to talk to a few folks who live out there. I’ll just say they have some very different opinions on things and seemed downright hostile towards golf and golf courses in general. 

What was their problem?

[Woodridge]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:53 PM, Snowman9000 said:

Yeah, if you were there in the bad old days, you could just drive up and tee off.  Not now.

True. I've been scolded for not calling ahead.

[BigDaddyBazinga]

I am in North Atlanta area and my private clubs is doing exceedingly well.  Initiation has gone up substantially this year and membership is full-no wait list tho.  Good range of ages for the membership.  I do have friends at two supposedly private clubs close by that were bought by Club Corp several years ago and they complain the condition of the courses has deteriorated significantly since the buyout.  They also complain they constantly get paired with nonmembers but the club continues to claim they remain private.

[Shades234]

Are you not living in the 2021 covid golf boom? Every decent club in San Diego is full or nearly full. Initiation fees are as high as they were before the recession. Private clubs are not struggling out here.

[Jason Kennemer]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:19 PM, Telo said:

Same here, my dude. Millennial who's either golfing or thinking about golfing. I'm well into my career and we can easily afford the cost of most of the local clubs, but they don't interest me. I'm a muni rat at heart and at $30-40 with a cart it would take a lot of rounds to make a club make sense.

I bet you’d be surprised, depending on how much you practice & play golf. And if the family uses it for the pool, tennis, pickleball, workout facilities, F&B, you may get a lot of value and more time on the course.

 

But, if you don’t have the time, have your own pool (or plan to put one in $$), and only play 1-2 times per month, it probably doesn’t make sense.

[Golfnuck]

On 12/1/2021 at 12:19 PM, Medson said:

Just curious. Are all these waitlist the result of COVID golf boom?

 

Not at my club.

 

We had a full waitlist of over 60 full play members in 2019.  

 

COVID forced us to suspend moving any members off of the waitlist AND to suspend the addition of any new members onto the wailtlist.

[Pepperturbo]

On 12/1/2021 at 9:53 AM, Dr.Zevia said:

Let's not forget younger people don't look favorably at the idea of a private clubs that aren't inclusive for everyone ect.
Wherever you may be, are the local private clubs starting to get hard up for new members?

 

To the first comment, younger people that don't have fathers and mothers holding private club memberships, more than likely won't see private club value.  Surely the average 20-35 yr old adult can't afford memberships in private clubs anyway, so what they think about them is kind immaterial to the future of private clubs.  All that age group can look forward to is maybe a Jr club membership, if nearby clubs have that category.  

 

As to the "aren't inclusive to everyone etc." comment, private clubs are not looking for that type person, so they don't matter  Besides, that segment is limited in numbers, and not often even golfers.  Having been on membership committees of two private clubs, I can say without hesitation, we never saw youth with that attitude; may be that's because we only looked at youth that were golfers and hoping to improve; not make their choice in club a political statement. 

 

Look what happened to private clubs in China recently.  The government said members are too bourgeois and need to open up to all folks, clubs said no, and some even shut down.

 

When you're around as long as I have been, you see how cycles in economy and cycles in golf and club membership go up and down.  Better clubs with great tracks are economically, fine.  Some in our area have raised their fees.  The spread of TT's has more people looking at private clubs.  Yes, most clubs have member openings, but that doesn't mean they have fallen on hard times.  NOBODY I am acquainted with is struggling.  Additionally, it all depends on the economic structure of where the club is located. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[ShortGolfer]

There is a private club minutes from where I live that has special membership categories for members under 26 and under 36.

 

They have a deal with the town that resident seniors don't have to pay green fees if they play on Mondays.

[GolfCarl]

I think private clubs will do well until there is an economic downturn (who knows when that will be but with 10% inflation in 2021...) or boomers age out.  

[Carl Spackler3]

In Charlotte and 30 mins N-S-E and West. Every course has a jam packed tee sheet 7 days a week. Every private club is completely full with a waiting list, some several years long.

[Golfnuck]

On 12/1/2021 at 9:53 AM, Dr.Zevia said:

I was having a discussion with a friend the other day regarding the future of private golf clubs.  I quipped the number of private clubs will continue to decline in the coming years.  His retort was there are no shortage of members where he plays.  I ask what's the average age of the members, and he says about 65.  The fact in the next 10 years at least half of the membership will have passed away or have stopped playing seemed to be lost on him.  I also mention the next generation of people that would need to join said club to keep it afloat are now saddled with student loan and mortgage debt.  Let's not forget younger people don't look favorably at the idea of a private clubs that aren't inclusive for everyone ect.
Wherever you may be, are the local private clubs starting to get hard up for new members?

 

You must hang out in a completely different crowd.

 

At my club we have a waitlist of over 70 members for full play and including other categories the total waitlist is 100 members.

 

We froze all new applications starting in January of this year.

 

The average age of our club is well under 60.  Our intermediate membership (under 35) has a waitlist.

 

The initiation fee for our intermediate is $45k.

 

As to your comment that younger people "don't look favorably at the idea of a private club that aren't inclusive for everyone etc." in my interactions with our younger members I do not find that to be the case and in fact they tend to feel the more exclusive our club becomes the better.

 

As to the comment about this next generation being saddled with student loans and mortgage debt?  There are lots of intermediate members with Porsches, BMW and Audi's.  I personally know that many of them own their own condos and in Vancouver a very small one bedroom condo will set you back at least $700k.  Obviously the bank of mom and dad is helping many of them but in the last few years a lot of younger professionals have seen their income rise considerably.

 

Every private club in Vancouver BC are full and with waitlists.  Most will significantly increase their initiation fees and dues in the near future.

 

Not sure where you live but the private club situation in Vancouver is alive and doing very very well.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Golfnuck

[pb_n_joe]

Relocated from SF to LA / Orange County late last year. Reached out to about a dozen clubs in the area to inquire about junior exec memberships and every single one had a waitlist. Most said there were no waitlists pre-covid. Barring a massive economic downturn, it feels like the demand from the under 40 crowd is here to stay. As others have alluded to, this cohort has benefited from significant wealth creation over the last ~10 years, recognize the benefits of private club memberships, and are willing to pay for it.

[HackerDave]

Our club is doing remarkably well.   We are well positioned for population growth and have marketed ourselves as a family club forever.   We have the largest junior golf program in the state due to having a younger membership.   

 

Also belong to a small club in a more rural area where we have a cottage.  They have never been busier.  This is a club that was at deaths doorstep 10 years ago and this year stopped taking applications.    

[ChaosTheory]

Oh for the good old days before death’s door and maxed out.

[ChipNRun]

On 12/1/2021 at 4:03 PM, Moonlightgrm said:

I am sad to report that our club (we’ve been members for 24-years) went semi-private a couple of years ago. Our club was always in pristine shape with a challenging 18-hole Geoffrey Cornish layout. We hosted the LPGA Friendly’s Classic golf tournament for four years. Since we were bought out, the new ownership has done next to nothing to maintain our course. ...

 

The ownership has informed us that “public play will save the day”. They will never go back to private. ...   We miss the country club atmosphere.

 

Here's the situation in the St. Louis area. In the 1960s, the region had a good mix of private clubs and public courses. As the area grew, some nine-hole layouts and struggling clubs that became the first semi-privates became housing subdivisions, shopping malls or industrial cites.

 

In the 1990s, the area joined the national boom in golf residential developments. Many developers had the idea they would sell memberships to homebuyers, and then take the swanky layout private once the lots were all gone. Well, some plans were more successful than others. Some made this move successfully, while others got stuck in the netherworld of semi-privates. Turns out, not everyone wanted a posh house along a fairway. In fact, some said "sell me the lot and keep your golf."  But, your scattering of members don't generate enough $ to keep the course afloat. As @Moonlightgrmsaid, "Public play will save the day."

 

And, public golfers showed up in droves because many earlier public tracks no longer existed.

 

But... the Recession of 2008 took a chunk out of overbuilt golf courses and fancy courses. Several semi-privates went under, especially those that had gone cheap on course construction and needed a rebuild in days of declining play. One tell-tale sign: The back nine is 500 yards shorter than the front nine, because poor housing and golf coordination cut into playable space.

 

And, two of the fancier clubs were bought and turned into semi-privates. But, they got altered. Fairways were widened on longer holes (cut down trees!), half the sand bunkers filled in, tee boxes moved up on forced-carry holes. Reality: fancy courses with exotic bunkering can't be maintained without a wealthy private clientele.

Edited December 21, 2021 by ChipNRun

[Oh Hi Carl]

I live in an extremely expensive area and have never been able to afford a club less than a 45 drive away.  Now I'm worried that will be the same case in the areas where I hope to retire.  At least some of those retirement areas have strong public golf options.  

[ChaosTheory]

11 hours ago, Oh Hi Carl said:

I live in an extremely expensive area and have never been able to afford a club less than a 45 drive away.  Now I'm worried that will be the same case in the areas where I hope to retire.  At least some of those retirement areas have strong public golf options.  

After the pandemic clears, who knows what will happen to all the new golfers?  Wait until the next recession, and see how many drop out.

[Oh Hi Carl]

10 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

After the pandemic clears, who knows what will happen to all the new golfers?  Wait until the next recession, and see how many drop out.

Yup, it kinda feels like the first few weeks of January when the gym is full of New Year's resolution people who won't be there by March. 

[RoyalMustang]

This is a really interesting topic, and one that I am keenly interested in.  

 

I agree with the premise that "old money" courses in "old money" cities won't have an issue going forward.  The kids grew up going to that course and have a trust fund giving them $1M a year-why would they not continue to be a member?  A friend of mine has a membership to one of the most exclusive clubs in the entire US (they confiscate your cell phone at the door) and it was a gift from his parents.  He plays when he can, maybe 2X a month. These clubs aren't going anywhere.

 

2nd-tier clubs may be the haunting ground of the professional class: those making $300-750k a year.  Salaries are up; top MBA students are pulling down nearly $200k a year after leaving school and can expect to make significantly more 3-5 years later.  As long as salaries are strong and people are starting families, they will want to join clubs. However, how many of these people actually want to golf?  Most of my MBA buddies don't golf that much; they like to travel and do more experience-oriented things.  The vision of the lily-white country club; the gathering place for ladies who lunch over 3 glasses of wine and where little kids are watched over by nannies, seems outdated.  I know fewer and fewer people who want to interact like that: even those I know who belong to prestigious clubs don't really enjoy interacting with the "see and be seen" crowd.      

 

ClubCorp-managed clubs-ugh. Talk about sucking a viable entity dry.  If it is managed by ClubCorp, don't join!  You will be playing on a cow pasture in no time.  

 

What I see an opportunity in is for clubs that are oriented toward golfers.  Not really social clubs, but golf clubs.  Those that want to get a reliable tee time and have a course that challenges them.  Those that don't need white glove service or status, but do enjoy the game and want the camaraderie that surrounds it.    

 

[cacophony82]

I live in the DFW area - most high end clubs are on a wait list - tier one currently in the 75-225k area most on a wait or social only.   Low to mid tier clubs are flush and charging 5-60k typically full or close to full.  

[drl1534]

Clubs in my area Northeast PA, seem to be pretty full. My club is pretty much maxed out and has been over the last 5-10 years. What I see in our area that could be part of it is prorated fees based on age in order to appeal towards younger membership. Similar to what other replies have stated, the majority of members seem to be 65+. The best way to keep the younger generations involved is to run deals when joining. My club has run promos waiving initiation fees and given a few months discounted/free to members 25-30 in order to try and up that % of members in the last year or two. 

[Schley]

The question isn't if they are doing well, they are across the board. Private golf club health mirrors the macro economy to a large extent, no secret there. If you were going to prescribe a situation after covid hit to allow the economy to recover and put as much money as possible in the system, you have it. Politics aside, the macro economy was flushed with various government infused programs with a good intent. The consequence of that has been hyper inflation and now must be quelled. Is a recession coming, no idea, but certainly a downturn will happen as a year from now we can't be talking about 6.5% inflation for 2022 or we all we will in a worse place.

[jimokane]

On 12/7/2021 at 1:59 PM, BigDaddyBazinga said:

I am in North Atlanta area and my private clubs is doing exceedingly well.  Initiation has gone up substantially this year and membership is full-no wait list tho.  Good range of ages for the membership.  I do have friends at two supposedly private clubs close by that were bought by Club Corp several years ago and they complain the condition of the courses has deteriorated significantly since the buyout.  They also complain they constantly get paired with nonmembers but the club continues to claim they remain private.

 

Are you at liberty to mention your club and the two Club Corp clubs referenced? A few years ago, I looked at Eagle's Landing on the South Side and Rivermont on the North side. I didn't pull the trigger on either. Still looking for the right place in Atlanta for me. 

[Golferpaul]

On 4/5/2022 at 12:34 PM, jimokane said:

 

Are you at liberty to mention your club and the two Club Corp clubs referenced? A few years ago, I looked at Eagle's Landing on the South Side and Rivermont on the North side. I didn't pull the trigger on either. Still looking for the right place in Atlanta for me. 

I was a member at Rivermont 20 years ago. I really enjoyed the club.

[miamigolfman]

As a 30-soemthing professional with two small kids (4 and 2), there are few things I want more than a CC membership.  Living in Jupiter, FL there are 5x more private clubs than public. This makes public golf expensive ($100+ per round) and VERY difficult to get a decent tee-time.  ALL the clubs around me have wait-lists.  Between the $100 rounds and $20 bucket I am spending close to the yearly price of some memberships by me.  

 

And being a younger person, I can say the privacy is very welcomed.