***Merged SGL topic thread - Phil/Bryson/DJ/College players/PGA Tour changes*** (*** NO POLITICS ***) (*** TOPIC IS MODERATED ***)

[dcmidnight]

I think at the end of the day you either believe that the PGA Tour should be about talent or it shouldn't be. And no, I guess I'm just not in the camp or "everyone gets orange slices at halftime and all the kids get trophies at the end of the game". Not sorry I guess.

 

There's plenty of guaranteed money on tour - its called making cuts. And if you're not the best 70th or so player that week, see you next week. Although yes you probably still got your sponsor money that week and got paid for the Pro Am if you played (is that still the case?).

 

Players come and go all the time. Five years from now there will be players in the Top 20 I will enjoy watching that I haven't heard of yet. Oh well, live goes on.

Edited February 3, 2022 by dcmidnight

[golfortennis]

59 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

They give to charity instead of to the government through taxation, just far less as a percentage than those with good charity ratings do

 

But it's more than that.  To maintain the not-for-taxes< I mean profit, status, they have to spend a certain percentage of the money they bring in.  Unfortunately how much goes to charity vs. "administration" is not much of a factor.  It's why you have so many 7 figure salaries, and the huge new headquarters.  That money can't sit in reserves beyond a certain amount.  Like has been said before, there's a lot of profit to be made in non-profits.

 

To put another example on it, look at the facilities colleges athletic departments are building, and salaries coaches are making.  Donations fly in by the brinks truck on an hourly basis, and you are getting lockerrooms where each locker has a TV.  YOu have volleyball coaches and water polo coaches making far more money than any market that exists for their services would dictate.  But that money needs to be spent in order to maintain the tax designation.  

 

It could be a worthwhile discussion whether that money is better used than going to the government(although not here for obvious reasons), but I do think a number of behaviors would change with a change in the tax status.  

[Ole3wiggle]

13 minutes ago, DON SVO said:

So many people are trying to peg this on Phil wanting more money. This dislike some folks have for Phil seems as if it is making them miss the whole context. I look at it like this (since his b!tch is about too many overpaid salaried suits in office buildings working for a "non-profit" )

 

NHL minimum salary: $750,000/season under contract

NBA minimum salary: $925,258/season under contract

MLB minimum salary: $570,500/season under contract

NFL minimum salary: $660,000/season under contract

PGA minimum salary: $0

 

This is a slight stretch but say a good PGA player who has a bad year might play 20+ tournaments and not make hardly any cuts whatsoever and lose his card. That player earns next to $0 and is actually in the hole, Tour earnings-wise, based upon expenses. A bench-warming dugout catcher for the Yankees makes over half a million with zero expenses. The poor 4th string linebacker getting bull dozed by Ezekiel Elliott in practice every week makes $660,000 a year with zero expenses. That I think is where Phil is coming from, a bunch of salaried C-level execs refusing to allow PGA Players guaranteed money and therefore a guaranteed living. I don't claim to have the answers to how to solve it, I just agree that the disparity is tremendous. The new players on Tour, the guys who are in a rut, the folks playing through injuries to keep their cards... Phil is saying that the PGA could do better to make sure those guys have more stability and they're not doing it, which is opening doors for other organizations to fill in the gaps.  

I'm pretty sure they've had that conversation about guaranteed money and it always gets shot down. Guess who doesn't like it? Guys like Phil, who generally are at the top of the leaderboard and know over the course of a season they'll be in enough top 10s to make $. They don't want that top tier money to be less

[DON SVO]

2 minutes ago, One Putter said:

The comparison to other sports leagues is just absurd. In other sports leagues, there are teams, and the teams are the ones that decide what to pay players, not the league itself. Also the team can cut a player that isn't good enough at any time if they choose. Who would be the "team" in this situation?

 

The whole point of the PGA tour is you have to earn your way on. Key word there, earn. If you take that incentive out and just start handing out money and trophies and puppies to everyone then you're losing sight of the most important thing: genuine competition to see who is the best.

 

Actually, minimum salaries are negotiated between the respective league and Player's Association/Union via Collective Bargaining Agreements. The teams, should they so choose to be in said league, negotiate with them as well and agree to said minimums. Teams don't get to say squat to the min.

 

Also, I'm not losing sight what what you think is what's most important: apparently the important issue here is that a decent amount of Tour players are getting to where they are looking to get paid and, in some instances, get paid better. Which I am all for. 

[Soloman1]

38 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

...average salary earnings on Tour was $1.49M.

 

If you, Musk and Bezos are in a room, your average net worth is over $150 billion. What's it like having all that money? 😉

[thesloth]

5 hours ago, DON SVO said:

So many people are trying to peg this on Phil wanting more money. This dislike some folks have for Phil seems as if it is making them miss the whole context. I look at it like this (since his b!tch is about too many overpaid salaried suits in office buildings working for a "non-profit" )

 

NHL minimum salary: $750,000/season under contract

NBA minimum salary: $925,258/season under contract

MLB minimum salary: $570,500/season under contract

NFL minimum salary: $660,000/season under contract

PGA minimum salary: $0

 

This is a slight stretch but say a good PGA player who has a bad year might play 20+ tournaments and not make hardly any cuts whatsoever and lose his card. That player earns next to $0 and is actually in the hole, Tour earnings-wise, based upon expenses. A bench-warming dugout catcher for the Yankees makes over half a million with zero expenses. The poor 4th string linebacker getting bull dozed by Ezekiel Elliott in practice every week makes $660,000 a year with zero expenses. That I think is where Phil is coming from, a bunch of salaried C-level execs refusing to allow PGA Players guaranteed money and therefore a guaranteed living. I don't claim to have the answers to how to solve it, I just agree that the disparity is tremendous. The new players on Tour, the guys who are in a rut, the folks playing through injuries to keep their cards... Phil is saying that the PGA could do better to make sure those guys have more stability and they're not doing it, which is opening doors for other organizations to fill in the gaps.  

The biggest difference is the athletes playing in those team-based leagues have no autonomy. Once signed and receiving their guaranteed money (or not guaranteed), those players are told when and where to play for the next 6-10 months. The PGA tour system allows guys to play as much or as little (not 100% true, but true enough) as they want, when they want. For the guys who make decent money at it, I can’t imagine a better setup than being paid extremely well and having complete control over your schedule and  commitments. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by thesloth

[Holy Moses]

20 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

But it's more than that.  To maintain the not-for-taxes< I mean profit, status, they have to spend a certain percentage of the money they bring in.  Unfortunately how much goes to charity vs. "administration" is not much of a factor.  It's why you have so many 7 figure salaries, and the huge new headquarters.  That money can't sit in reserves beyond a certain amount.  Like has been said before, there's a lot of profit to be made in non-profits.

 

To put another example on it, look at the facilities colleges athletic departments are building, and salaries coaches are making.  Donations fly in by the brinks truck on an hourly basis, and you are getting lockerrooms where each locker has a TV.  YOu have volleyball coaches and water polo coaches making far more money than any market that exists for their services would dictate.  But that money needs to be spent in order to maintain the tax designation.  

 

It could be a worthwhile discussion whether that money is better used than going to the government(although not here for obvious reasons), but I do think a number of behaviors would change with a change in the tax status.  

I’m with you. Just pointing out how little the Tour gives compared to other non-profits in order to keep from having to pay taxes

Edited February 3, 2022 by Holy Moses

[DON SVO]

1 minute ago, Ole3wiggle said:

I'm pretty sure they've had that conversation about guaranteed money and it always gets shot down. Guess who doesn't like it? Guys like Phil, who generally are at the top of the leaderboard and know over the course of a season they'll be in enough top 10s to make $. They don't want that top tier money to be less

 

We know it keeps getting shot down, which is Phil's point. I know you don't like him, but what if Phil is really rooting for the underdog here and not for his own pocket book? The guy's making a bucket load more cash off the course as he always has (it's something like 10:1 even when he was winning a lot), he realistically doesn't need the Tour to guarantee him anything. What he's trying to accommodate would help the Tour players as a whole. Would a minimum $20k tee up money per tournament help Phil or the Wes Roach/Josh Teater/Ricky Barnes type more?

[dcmidnight]

  

1 minute ago, DON SVO said:

 

We know it keeps getting shot down, which is Phil's point. I know you don't like him, but what if Phil is really rooting for the underdog here and not for his own pocket book? The guy's making a bucket load more cash off the course as he always has (it's something like 10:1 even when he was winning a lot), he realistically doesn't need the Tour to guarantee him anything. What he's trying to accommodate would help the Tour players as a whole. Would a minimum $20k tee up money per tournament help Phil or the Wes Roach/Josh Teater/Ricky Barnes type more?

 

Because Phil has a recent history of shooting his mouth off and being out of touch with whats actually going on on Tour?

 

Remember last year Phil whining about the new regulations on driver length and him lashing out about how butthurt he was that the players werent consulted and on and on and on. Rory had to step out and say hey, the players were absolutely consulted, the Tour came through the PAC as it should have and here are all the reasons we thought it was a good idea.

 

Also why is Phil crying about the players not having enough votes? Its not 4 votes out of 200 - its 4 out of 9 which is, last I checked, the size of the PGA Tour Board. The 4 players are chosen from the 16 player PAC - which I cant remember Phil ever serving on.

 

Has he ever spent his own personal time working these issues in a forum where it could actually make a difference?

 

Or is it too easy for him to call in to some of these podcasts from his G6 and whine about how little money is made on Tour?

[DON SVO]

2 minutes ago, thesloth said:

The biggest difference is the athletes playing in those team-based leagues have no autonomy. Once signed and receiving their guaranteed money (or not guaranteed), those players are told when and where to play for the next 6-10 months. The PGA tour system allows guys to play as much or as little (not 100% true, but true enough) as they want, when they want. For the guys who make decent money at it, I can’t imagine a better setup than being paid extremely well and having complete control over your schedule Andrew  commitments. 

 

That's getting a bit into the weeds ()regarding setting when and where to play etc.), but other pro sports players contracts also often times have bonuses, spiffs, and incentives well above and beyond their structured guaranteed agreements. This whole thing is for the guys who would be akin to the other sports' league minimum types, it's who would benefit more. 

[DON SVO]

Just now, dcmidnight said:

  

 

Because Phil has a recent history of shooting his mouth off and being out of touch with whats actually going on on Tour?

 

Remember last year Phil whining about the new regulations on driver length and him lashing out about how butthurt he was that the players werent consulted and on and on and on. Rory had to step out and say hey, the players were absolutely consulted, the Tour came through the PAC as it should have and here are all the reasons we thought it was a good idea.

 

Also why is Phil crying about the players not having enough votes? Its not 4 votes out of 200 - its 4 out of 9 which is, last I checked, the size of the PGA Tour Board. The 4 players are chosen from the 16 player PAC - which I cant remember Phil ever serving on.

 

Has he ever spent his own personal time working these issues in a forum where it could actually make a difference?

 

Or is it too easy for him to call in to some of these podcasts from his G6 and whine about how little money is made on Tour?

 

I disagree with your opinion of him being "out of touch", he actually one of the most vocal and active players. You keep on about how much money Phil is making for some reason, which makes me wonder why you're defending an ocean of seven-figure C-suite types at the pGA Tour "non profit" office who Phil is saying ignore the new and lower tier PGA Tour player who might jump ship for a paycheck. I find that ironic.

[straightshot7]

I don’t see what’s wrong with Phil’s idea that maybe the players should get some of the media rights/profit from the use of the media. 
 

that would benefit all of the players, not just the rich ones like Phil. 

 

and I haven’t seen the financials, but maybe there should be a base salary to cover expenses for players that make the Tour. 
 

they still have to earn the big bucks. But giving them a base does not detract from that. 
 

a base could help a player that has a ton of potential (in the 100-150 ranking region) but struggles to continue to pay for the travel expenses. 

[dcmidnight]

1 minute ago, DON SVO said:

I disagree with your opinion of him being "out of touch", he actually one of the most vocal and active players. You keep on about how much money Phil is making for some reason, which makes me wonder why you're defending an ocean of seven-figure C-suite types at the pGA Tour "non profit" office who Phil is saying ignore the new and lower tier PGA Tour player who might jump ship for a paycheck. I find that ironic.

 

And I find it ironic that the first I hear Phil talking about how little money is made on Tour is after he's wrung just about every last dollar he can out of the Tour.

Also we really need to stop comparing minimum earnings to those in the NFL say. A bench RB in the NFL might have a career span of two years or less - and is basically suffering brain damage every play he gets into a game. There is simply no comparison from a physicality standpoint.

[DON SVO]

1 minute ago, dcmidnight said:

 

And I find it ironic that the first I hear Phil talking about how little money is made on Tour is after he's wrung just about every last dollar he can out of the Tour.

Also we really need to stop comparing minimum earnings to those in the NFL say. A bench RB in the NFL might have a career span of two years or less - and is basically suffering brain damage every play he gets into a game. There is simply no comparison from a physicality standpoint.

 

A low-level newbie PGA player will typically burn out and disappear just as quick, dude. There's a reason the joke exists about good golfers having a Tour card or an Insurance Agency.

[dcmidnight]

Just now, DON SVO said:

 

A low-level newbie PGA player will typically burn out and disappear just as quick, dude. There's a reason the joke exists about good golfers having a Tour card or an Insurance Agency.

 

So your answer is paying guys $20k/wk tee up money? So...$500k minimum tee up money a season just for showing up?

No thanks, just not something I'm at all interested in seeing.

[Holy Moses]

4 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

And I find it ironic that the first I hear Phil talking about how little money is made on Tour is after he's wrung just about every last dollar he can out of the Tour.

Also we really need to stop comparing minimum earnings to those in the NFL say. A bench RB in the NFL might have a career span of two years or less - and is basically suffering brain damage every play he gets into a game. There is simply no comparison from a physicality standpoint.

There is no comparison in revenue either. The NFL does 10x the revenue the PGA Tour does.

[DON SVO]

1 minute ago, dcmidnight said:

 

So your answer is paying guys $20k/wk tee up money? So...$500k minimum tee up money a season just for showing up?

No thanks, just not something I'm at all interested in seeing.

 

That's essentially what happened in just about every other pro sport, and those league minimums were born from they very situations/discussions we're having here. Fun, progressive times for the PGA! 🤣

[One Putter]

20 minutes ago, DON SVO said:

 

We know it keeps getting shot down, which is Phil's point. I know you don't like him, but what if Phil is really rooting for the underdog here and not for his own pocket book? The guy's making a bucket load more cash off the course as he always has (it's something like 10:1 even when he was winning a lot), he realistically doesn't need the Tour to guarantee him anything. What he's trying to accommodate would help the Tour players as a whole. Would a minimum $20k tee up money per tournament help Phil or the Wes Roach/Josh Teater/Ricky Barnes type more?

Lmao. Phil is doing nothing but pissing on your shoes and telling you it's raining.

[tacklingdummy]

18 minutes ago, thesloth said:

The biggest difference is the athletes playing in those team-based leagues have no autonomy. Once signed and receiving their guaranteed money (or not guaranteed), those players are told when and where to play for the next 6-10 months. The PGA tour system allows guys to play as much or as little (not 100% true, but true enough) as they want, when they want. For the guys who make decent money at it, I can’t imagine a better setup than being paid extremely well and having complete control over your schedule Andrew  commitments. 

 

 

On the PGA tour, players have to play a minimum of 15 tournaments.  

[DON SVO]

1 minute ago, One Putter said:

Lmao. Phil is doing nothing but pissing on your shoes and telling you it's raining.

 

Man you really don't like him at all hahahaha!

[dcmidnight]

6 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

There is no comparison in revenue either. The NFL does 10x the revenue the PGA Tour does.

 

I saw 12x but the point is the same. MLB/NFL arent even on the same scale as the PGA - no reason salaries should be "just because".

[dcmidnight]

5 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

On the PGA tour, players have to play a minimum of 15 tournaments.  

 

And everyone seems to forget that players get a $50,000 bonus for doing this.

 

Again - is this like Phil - where people hoot and holler about wanting something but it turns out it already exists?

[DFS PFD]

While they may not be guaranteed to become millionaires just for one season of play on tour, don't they all get absurdly generous retirement and benefits? And why is it so appalling they go out and just play for their money like they always have and payouts have never been higher. The opportunity is there, don't just hand it to them. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

If this is true.....DeChambeau with eight PGATOUR wins, and one major championship would be a fool not to take the money and run.

 

I would be the first to sign up..... who cares about a PGATOUR ban!

 

100%, PGA Tour is pretty lame except for a few tourneys.  

[tacklingdummy]

1 minute ago, dcmidnight said:

 

And everyone seems to forget that players get a $50,000 bonus for doing this.

 

Again - is this like Phil - where people hoot and holler about wanting something but it turns out it already exists?

 

I know this, but 50K is really nothing for 15 events. After travel costs for 15 weeks, paying caddies, and taxes they are still in the hole unless they make several cuts. 

[One Putter]

6 minutes ago, DON SVO said:

 

Man you really don't like him at all hahahaha!

I enjoy watching him play golf...hell, i root for the guy to win. He's awesome. But it's clear what his motivations are. Him trying to spin it any other way is funny to me.

[mat562]

You're 51, set for life, and you, your family and your descendants will enjoy a lifestyle that billions can only dream of, Phil.

 

Get a grip, lad.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by mat562

[DON SVO]

Just now, One Putter said:

I enjoy watching him play golf...hell, i root for the guy to win. He's awesome. But it's clear what his motivations are. Him trying to spin it any other way is funny to me.

 

I strongly disagree with your sentiment because I'm not looking at what Phil said applying to Phil... if what he's talking about came to fruition, every card-carrying PGA Tour player would benefit. Other organizations are trying to implement what he is talking about and it's about to cause a sizable ripple effect in the near future. It'll all be exciting to see unfold. 

[Paddy_2_Iron]

I honestly don't know all the details except what has been provided on here, but from the outside looking in, it looks entirely feasible.  He is absolutely an outside the box thinking and if they can get the leagues vision to align with Dechambeau's vision it will happen. 

 

Money CHECK

Vision of getting golfer to match his style of play CHECK  (He has stated on more than one occasion that's important to him.  

League modifying tourneys to fit his style of play (Again assuming they would do this with that pay out).  

He's not only in it for the presitige he wants to make his mark and he can absolutely do that globally.  

[dcmidnight]

3 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

I know this, but 50K is really nothing for 15 events. After travel costs for 15 weeks, paying caddies, and taxes they are still in the hole unless they make several cuts. 

 

And I think I'm fine with that. If you're playing 15 events you probably have some sponsors of some kind anyway. 

And if you miss 13 cuts out of 15 events? Meh, I think I'm also OK saying its next man up.

Clearly I'm in the minority but I'm fine with that too.