***Merged SGL topic thread - Phil/Bryson/DJ/College players/PGA Tour changes*** (*** NO POLITICS ***) (*** TOPIC IS MODERATED ***)

[me05501]

2 minutes ago, Loki said:

Isn't the tour owned by the players? That would mean the players can change things.

 

It is not. 

[dcmidnight]

5 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

That's true, but there is no situation where players in those leagues have to perform and not be paid for the work. 

 

Right but think about the other half of what you are saying. There are plenty of situations in those leagues where they dont have to perform at all (bench players/injuries on guaranteed contracts) and they get paid boatloads of money.

[RCGA]

5 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

 

 

The equivalent would be if a hockey team required every player to find their own transportation to an away game and only paid the players who scored or got an assist. 

 

It's kind of like that, though. Does Patrick Mahomes get a massive contract if he plays like Dwayne Haskins?

[Holy Moses]

3 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

I wish someone would tell that to Trae Young, who was healthy enough to play for the Hawks on Sunday vs. the Lakers but sat out Monday vs. the Raptors...which happened to be the game we attended. 😕

Gotta be healthy for the stretch run and the playoffs

[dcmidnight]

I guess I'm still confused too - who exactly are the "aggrieved parties" I'm supposed to be worried about? Is it the bottom of the money list guys who aren't making $10,000 all year? Like Fred Funk or Arjun Atwal or Parker McClachlin?

 

Or is just "we know these guys make boatloads of money but they should be making more"?

 

Median salary on Tour was $996K - average salary on Tour was $1.49M.

 

That doesnt even start to speak to off course earnings, PIP or FedEx money.

Edited February 3, 2022 by dcmidnight

[dcmidnight]

And I wont even pretend to know how the PGA Tour pension program works.

[One Putter]

 

Cya later bryson! He gonna be the king of the bonesaw tour.

[me05501]

12 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

I guess I'm still confused too - who exactly are the "aggrieved parties" I'm supposed to be worried about? Is it the bottom of the money list guys who aren't making $10,000 all year? Like Fred Funk or Arjun Atwal or Parker McClachlin?

 

Or is just "we know these guys make boatloads of money but they should be making more"?

 

Median salary on Tour was $996K - average salary on Tour was $1.49M.

 

That doesnt even start to speak to off course earnings, PIP or FedEx money.

 

"Salary" should not be in the lexicon of this discussion. Salaries are guaranteed. "Earnings" is the right word. 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by me05501

[One Putter]

I say let anyone who wants to do this, do it. If the PGA wants to ban them who cares. I'll still follow the PGA because i live in America but i'd check in on the other thing too.

[00steven]

Seems to me the likely guys to hump may be the older vets when aren’t too worried about playing the tour again and have had a great career. Maybe guys like Phil and DJ would do it if the cash is right.

[farmer]

Without TV it's going to be troublesome to sell the brand.  Tourney's will have to be on tape delay, which is annoying.  Some of the mid-east is not entirely safe.  Hard sell for married guys with kids.

[tbowles411]

Funny.  Is his perceived reputation driving the "well wishes" or is this a real question?  Replace the name.  Phil isn't too happy with the PGA Tour right now.  Say he gets $200M to leave.  Would you feel the same or be outraged he'd abandon the PGA Tour for cash?

[tacklingdummy]

21 minutes ago, Loki said:

Isn't the tour owned by the players? That would mean the players can change things.

 

In the interview (Mickelson with Gary Williams), Mickelson said that the players do not have good representation with any of the decision making with the PGA Tour. He said that if players have any grievances with the PGA tour they have to talk to PGA tour commissioner who ultimately makes the decisions, so therein lies the conflict. Also, in that interview Mickelson said that of the 200 players on the PGA tour, only 4 of the players have votes. So, that is very little representation of all the PGA tour players. 

 

Mickelson is 51, and yeah he has a few years exemption for his PGA win, but he is still on his way out. I don't think he is going to benefit much on the PGA tour much for his opinions in the article. Mickelson is voicing his opinions for current and future players on the PGA tour and likely echoing what all the rest of the players are talking about right now, but are afraid to say publicly. 

[NoCalHack]

None of this worries me at all.  The Saudi human rights debate notwithstanding,  let the billionaires compete for players.  Ultimately, this has no effect on me as a consumer and may only help because they need to put out a good product for us to make more money.

 

From the standpoint of the players, I don't blame them for looking to get paid.  It's economics.  Tour players are rich, but very few have enough FU money that they don't care about tens of millions of dollars.  

 

From the standpoint of the PGA, they will be more motivated to keep their players happy but also make a better product.  They have a huge advantage because of tradition.

 

The breakaway leagues will at least bring ideas.  The Saudi league is a little more complicated, because I don't know if they really care that much about money.   But obviously the challenge is overcoming the political issues. The other breakaway league does care about money, so I see it being difficult for them to compete with the Tour.  What do they have to offer besides ideas? I can't go to google and tell them I have a great idea to make their product better.  They will just tell me to F off and take my idea if its that good.

 

 

 

[kmay__]

Lol

[NJBigFish22]

I don’t see this getting off the ground.  I don’t think a player in their prime would leave no matter how much is offered.  Someone like Phil could take since he is near the end, but that is also the problem, cause unless he has 10 years of being competitive this new tour won’t gain enough traction.  I think they need to go after top college players before they hit the tour, or players that are consistent but not winning regularly.  If all you have is someone like Bryson and a bunch of scrubs, what will that look like?  

[vandyfan]

Bryson makes a ton of sense as he seems very transparent (to me at least) about this being a cash grab. All the guys want the money (look at all the ads Rickie does), which is fine, but Bryson is in another strata with this stuff. He is very into being a pitchman/huckster, loves producing youtube videos about himself, rattles off his sponsors like a NASCAR driver and even says things like "the only time I am on an 18 hole golf course is if I am getting paid to do it." Does he like golf? Maybe he used to or still does at times but what he really likes is money. He likes being seen in private jets, fancy cars, etc. Attention, money, etc. 

[oikos1]

.

Edited February 3, 2022 by oikos1

[JonnyKrasnodar]

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/lee-westwood-signs-super-league-nda

 

May have been referenced already but Westwood has signed an NDA with the Saudi backed golf league apparently. Found his comments interesting around PGA/Euro tour incursion in the middle East and Asia as a reason for having the discussion when they have done a fair bit for golf over the period. And he's happily taken the paychecks at the expense of others. Interesting times ahead no doubt.

 

 

 

[DON SVO]

So many people are trying to peg this on Phil wanting more money. This dislike some folks have for Phil seems as if it is making them miss the whole context. I look at it like this (since his b!tch is about too many overpaid salaried suits in office buildings working for a "non-profit" )

 

NHL minimum salary: $750,000/season under contract

NBA minimum salary: $925,258/season under contract

MLB minimum salary: $570,500/season under contract

NFL minimum salary: $660,000/season under contract

PGA minimum salary: $0

 

This is a slight stretch but say a good PGA player who has a bad year might play 20+ tournaments and not make hardly any cuts whatsoever and lose his card. That player earns next to $0 and is actually in the hole, Tour earnings-wise, based upon expenses. A bench-warming dugout catcher for the Yankees makes over half a million with zero expenses. The poor 4th string linebacker getting bull dozed by Ezekiel Elliott in practice every week makes $660,000 a year with zero expenses. That I think is where Phil is coming from, a bunch of salaried C-level execs refusing to allow PGA Players guaranteed money and therefore a guaranteed living. I don't claim to have the answers to how to solve it, I just agree that the disparity is tremendous. The new players on Tour, the guys who are in a rut, the folks playing through injuries to keep their cards... Phil is saying that the PGA could do better to make sure those guys have more stability and they're not doing it, which is opening doors for other organizations to fill in the gaps.  

Edited February 3, 2022 by DON SVO

[MtlJeff]

This is similar to what multiple sports are going through or have gone through. The specific arguments might be faulty and whenever a multi-millionaire like Phil complains about it there's a lot of people who will roll their eyes.

 

But i said during the early threads on competitive leagues, the PGA tour has some shortcomings versus other pro sports leagues (most glaring is no guaranteed money) and there is always the risk someone can come along and offer better things

 

A great comparison, of all things, might be the WWE (pro wrestling). For years they were the only game in town, and while they paid people well--in many ways the contracts were not favorable to the performers in odd ways. Eventually AEW came along and took a ton of their guys just by doing some basic things.

 

The specifics of Phil's arguments might seem silly but there seems to be real blood in the water here

[golfortennis]

4 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

I don’t see this getting off the ground.  I don’t think a player in their prime would leave no matter how much is offered.  Someone like Phil could take since he is near the end, but that is also the problem, cause unless he has 10 years of being competitive this new tour won’t gain enough traction.  I think they need to go after top college players before they hit the tour, or players that are consistent but not winning regularly.  If all you have is someone like Bryson and a bunch of scrubs, what will that look like?  

 

I think the only way a player turns this down is if in some way the majors ban them from the tournament.  Which would be very wrong IMO, but otherwise, I don't see why the cash would be turned down.  It's a lot of money.

[elwhippy]

He lives such a poor lifestyle. Aw diddums. The PGA Tour will outlast this flash in the pan series. Cricket had some get rich quick schemes and these went bust, UEFA and the fans scared off the European Football Super League. I wouldn't watch these events out of principle. 

[oikos1]

56 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

As long as you are ok with the winners making less and those missing the cut making something. The top players, who really control the Tour, aren’t going to go for that. We’ve seen some of the top male tennis players moving the ATP Tour to shift money around to those who don’t make it that far through tournaments, but pro golfers are a different animal. Most just really don’t care.

You don't think that Rham, Morikawa, Koepka, Dechambeau, etc. wouldn't like to get an extra $1 million for say, 10 tournaments that they guarantee they play in?  The real question is how much money is there to divvy up.  The Tour has already shown through the PIP that roughly $40 mil to a few players wasn't that big of a deal.  How much more does the Tour have to play with?

[Holy Moses]

2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

You don't think that Rham, Morikawa, Koepka, Dechambeau, etc. wouldn't like to get an extra $1 million for say, 10 tournaments that they guarantee they play in?  The real question is how much money is there to divvy up.  The Tour has already shown through the PIP that roughly $40 mil to a few players wasn't that big of a deal.  How much more does the Tour have to play with?

They’ve doubled their TV deal and I think I read have close to a billion in the bank. If you think your league is in mortal danger, you’ll find the money.

[oikos1]

1 minute ago, Holy Moses said:

They’ve doubled their TV deal and I think I read have close to a billion in the bank. If you think your league is in mortal danger, you’ll find the money.

Exactly.

[drpino]

https://www.si.com/golf/news/miceli-pro-golfers-should-shut-their-mouths-and-realize-how-good-they-have-it

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hundreds-of-pro-golfers-have-over-1-million-in-their-pga-tour-retirement-accounts-2019-04-24

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/golden-retirements-pga-tour-pros-get-a-gift-that-keeps-giving

 

https://www.pgatour.com/tour-insider/2016/08/17/fighting-for-your-job-on-tour.html

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by drpino

[One Putter]

2 minutes ago, DON SVO said:

So many people are trying to peg this on Phil wanting more money. This dislike some folks have for Phil seems as if it is making them miss the whole context. I look at it like this (since his b!tch is about too many overpaid salaried suits in office buildings working for a "non-profit"😞

 

NHL minimum salary: $750,000/season under contract

NBA minimum salary: $925,258/season under contract

MLB minimum salary: $570,500/season under contract

NFL minimum salary: $660,000/season under contract

PGA minimum salary: $0

 

This is a slight stretch but say a good PGA player who has a bad year might play 20+ tournaments and not make hardly any cuts whatsoever and lose his card. That player earns next to $0 and is actually in the hole, Tour earnings-wise, based upon expenses. A bench-warming dugout catcher for the Yankees makes over half a million with zero expenses. The poor 4th string linebacker getting bull dozed by Ezekiel Elliott in practice every week makes $660,000 a year with zero expenses. That I think is where Phil is coming from, a bunch of salaried C-level execs refusing to allow PGA Players guaranteed money and therefore a guaranteed living. I don't claim to have the answers to how to solve it, I just agree that the disparity is tremendous. The new players on Tour, the guys who are in a rut, the folks playing through injuries to keep their cards... Phil is saying that the PGA could do better to make sure those guys have more stability and they're not doing it, which is opening doors for other organizations to fill in the gaps.  

The comparison to other sports leagues is just absurd. In other sports leagues, there are teams, and the teams are the ones that decide what to pay players, not the league itself. Also the team can cut a player that isn't good enough at any time if they choose. Who would be the "team" in this situation?

 

The whole point of the PGA tour is you have to earn your way on. Key word there, earn. If you take that incentive out and just start handing out money and trophies and puppies to everyone then you're losing sight of the most important thing: genuine competition to see who is the best.

[oikos1]

58 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

 

You dont think the PAC hasn't thought about this? My guess is the conversation went something like this. First, all the players who you would deem worthy of "appearance fees" - are already making millions in endorsement fees every year. Chances are most of those go bye bye if they start playing some random new Saudi tour. Second, all the same players are the ones in the running for the *75M* annual FedEx pot and the *50M* annual PIP pool. 

 

So for those "appearance fee" players, chances are they look at things and go hey you know what, we have it pretty good already.

 

And if not hey best of luck in the Saudi league and I will never watch you for one minute ever again - but dont let the door hit you on the way out, there are a handful of young guys waiting to take your place.

Lol. 

[DFS PFD]

For $135MM I would be wheels up on my way out of the PGA Tour if I was Bryson. That is a serious chunk of change depending on payment structure and guaranteed money.