distance debate

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That would be elite male players. 

 

ou can't unring the bell.  No matter what is done with equipment, the Old Course will never play like it did in 1970 nor will Merion.  Golf in 2022 is fundamentally different than it was 50 year's ago.

 

Why cant it be unrung? I’m not trying to go back 50 years, 22 years would be fine. Is the sky supposed to fall in if you took the 460 security blankets off them?

[milesgiles]

16 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

The argument for reigning in distance is that many of the "classic" courses are no longer viable for elite competitions because they either need to be tricked up (uncharacteristically long rough, ultra fast greens) because there is no longer a strategic component to their layouts for the majority of the field because of length.

 

If it were only a handful of players it wouldn't be an issue, but if the majority of players hit it far enough that's where the perceived issue is. Essentially the golfing powers that be don't want to see the game turn into a driver-wedge fest.

 

The powers that be don’t care enough about it or they would have done something a long time ago.

 

As a fan, I care that golf has become one dimensional 

[jvincent]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

The powers that be don’t care enough about it or they would have done something a long time ago.

 

As a fan, I care that golf has become one dimensional 

 

I actually think TPTB really do care. But for a variety of reasons were paralyzed into inaction.

 

If/when something happens I'll just deal with it. I'll make a bold prediction that it won't really impact my game since I'm not getting any younger.

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, milesgiles said:

 

Why cant it be unrung? I’m not trying to go back 50 years, 22 years would be fine. Is the sky supposed to fall in if you took the 460 security blankets off them?

Take it off.  Nothing will change.  The pros will still hit it 3 bills in the air.  They will still annihilate the Old Course when the wind doesn't blow.  Everyone will still play bomb and gouge because it is the optimal way to play most courses.

[Pastit]

38 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The relevance to the past will be far less than advocates think it will be.

I can think of 2 high-profile sports important to USA and U.K. audiences which might move this debate forward. I defer to USA respondents for their sports - I can now think of another. Previously I stated the changes in the F1 rules over time to deal with power increases endangering life:

 

BASEBALL:  shall bats change to overcome challenges from the ball ( or whatever it’s called - sorry ) ? Or should balls change to wobble in flight to beat the bat ?

BASKETBALL: should basket dims increase or decrease to make a score easier or more difficult.

 

CRICKET: should the ball be smaller to encourage big-hitting and eliminate fielding ?

 

Have any of the above happened in major ways ?

 

GOLF: Should we go on allowing 2- mtr tall athletes to overpower 600 yd par 5s - effectively eliminating them as par 5’s for a select group and making them par 4’s ?

 

OR: return to fat old men hitting 2 persimmon woods to par 5’s + a wedge on windy days. With caddies in dirty macs and sleeping under hedges. You decide. 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Pastit

[ThinkingPlus]

14 minutes ago, Pastit said:

I can think of 2 high-profile sports important to USA and U.K. audiences which might move this debate forward. I defer to USA respondents for their sports - I can now think of another. Previously I stated the changes in the F1 rules over time to deal with power increases endangering life:

 

BASEBALL:  shall bats change to overcome challenges from the ball ( or whatever it’s called - sorry ) ? Or should balls change to wobble in flight to beat the bat ?

BASKETBALL: should basket dims increase or decrease to make a score easier or more difficult.

 

CRICKET: should the ball be smaller to encourage big-hitting and eliminate fielding ?

 

Have any of the above happened in major ways ?

 

GOLF: Should we go on allowing 2- mtr tall athletes to overpower 600 yd par 5s - effectively eliminating them for a select group and making them par 4’s ?

 

OR: return to fat old men hitting 2 persimmon woods to par 5’s + a wedge on windy days. You decide. 

 

I would do nothing.  Things are fine the way they are.

[Titleist99]

49 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

The argument for reigning in distance is that many of the "classic" courses are no longer viable for elite competitions because they either need to be tricked up (uncharacteristically long rough, ultra fast greens) because there is no longer a strategic component to their layouts for the majority of the field because of length.

 

If it were only a handful of players it wouldn't be an issue, but if the majority of players hit it far enough that's where the perceived issue is. Essentially the golfing powers that be don't want to see the game turn into a driver-wedge fest.

If everyone plays the same golf course and the lowest score win, no course is obsolete because that's the object of the game. What you call tricked up, is call course defense by others. 

 

The reason a classic course or any other course don't have a PGATOUR event is they do not have the property for the infrastructure needed.

 

If anyone thinks that Pro golf is Driver / wedge I suggest they rewatch the Honda Classic......I didn't see anyone over power PGA National.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Titleist99

[Nard_S]

4 minutes ago, Pastit said:

BASEBALL:  shall bats change to overcome challenges from the ball ( or whatever it’s called - sorry ) ? Or should balls change to wobble in flight to beat the bat ?

BASKETBALL: should basket dims increase or decrease to make a score easier or more difficult.

Pitchers have complained that the seams on the ball are smoother, so they're breaking & curve pitches don't break as much as they used to. Analytics has eliminated "small ball" baseball. Only 100 mph heat & HR's (or bust) prevails. The game is in a death spiral.

 

NBA has implemented rule changes that protect the offense to a higher degree. It's arguable, that it's a better league. For my money Jordan era rules were better and the games were more intense. It's now a 3-point clinic, with mail-it-in defense. I pay attention in the playoffs.

 

The NFL has made changes that by and large have improved the game. Their revenue backs it too. Once Tiger takes a final bow, we will see what happens to PGA because nobody has that guy's thunder. Not a one. 

[Pastit]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I would do nothing.  Things are fine the way they are.

Thanks but I was hoping you guys over there would point out that your non golf sports haven’t changed in major ways ( about which I can only guess there’s no change ) whereas golf has. 

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Thanks but I was hoping you guys over there would point out that your non golf sports haven’t changed in major ways ( about which I can only guess there’s no change ) whereas golf has. 

I don't watch baseball.  It's boring and always has been. 

 

I enjoy playing basketball, but don't watch the NBA because they won't officiate it properly. 

 

The NFL has mucked with the rules so much they can hardly tell when a ball has been caught or not.  I watch, but get frustrated.

 

All these sports have pretty much continuously changed over the years.  Some changes could be categorized as good, some bad, and most are just different.  Golf should be no different.

[StudentGolfer4]

37 minutes ago, Pastit said:

I can think of 2 high-profile sports important to USA and U.K. audiences which might move this debate forward. I defer to USA respondents for their sports - I can now think of another. Previously I stated the changes in the F1 rules over time to deal with power increases endangering life:

 

BASEBALL:  shall bats change to overcome challenges from the ball ( or whatever it’s called - sorry ) ? Or should balls change to wobble in flight to beat the bat ?

BASKETBALL: should basket dims increase or decrease to make a score easier or more difficult.

 

CRICKET: should the ball be smaller to encourage big-hitting and eliminate fielding ?

 

Have any of the above happened in major ways ?

 

GOLF: Should we go on allowing 2- mtr tall athletes to overpower 600 yd par 5s - effectively eliminating them for a select group and making them par 4’s ?

 

OR: return to fat old men hitting 2 persimmon woods to par 5’s + a wedge on windy days. You decide. 

 

Basketball. Yes the three point line has been changed but it was changed to encourage outside shooting to reduce the physicality we saw in the 90s and make the skill of outside shooting more important. Reggie Miller hated the change because it made 3s easier. Many critics want to see the line lengthen again. The college 3 point line was moved back in 2008 to make it longer. In the NIT they have experimented with moving it back even further. Summer of 2021 the ncaa voted to move the womens line back to the international line. A move of 16 inches or so. 
 

Baseball, yes the ball changed in 2021 to fly shorter. This was done to combat the record number of homer runs hit during the 2019 season. According to the scientist working with the mlb a difference in seam height lead to less drag and increased the number of home runs. It was a very small change. The ball commonly goes through small changes. The early 20th century is referred to as the dead ball era because the baseball wouldn’t fly anywhere. 
 

In American football they have increased the distance extra points are kicked from. This was to make it more difficult. Football May nit be the best example bf they use a specific ball for kicking. 
 

Changing or limiting equipment isn’t new in golf either. Remember when they changed the grooves on wedges around 2010 to produce less spin? The idea what with less spin people who need to hit more fairways and this would help combat bomb and gouge. The change to wedges was because of the distance people were hitting it. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by StudentGolfer4

[ChipStrokes]

2 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I don't watch baseball.  It's boring and always has been. 

i played baseball from around 3 years old up through the professional level. what i’ve found is that people who find baseball boring don’t really understand it. 

 

golf is very much the same. i used to find it dreadfully boring to watch until i started to play. 

[Nard_S]

Tennis has had to slow the ball down. The power racket, the power game ushered in  a 1-dimensional boredom that needed fixing. They BIFURCATED ball specs for men's tennis. What do you know.

[Pastit]

15 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I don't watch baseball.  It's boring and always has been. 

 

I enjoy playing basketball, but don't watch the NBA because they won't officiate it properly. 

 

The NFL has mucked with the rules so much they can hardly tell when a ball has been caught or not.  I watch, but get frustrated.

 

All these sports have pretty much continuously changed over the years.  Some changes could be categorized as good, some bad, and most are just different.  Golf should be no different.

Thanks. My view is that post c 2005 drivers have: extended enjoyment of senior golfers pro and amateur; eliminated skill from driving for amateurs thus levelling up that part of the game; often diminishing enjoyment from main tour golf which, I suppose, is the same reduction of skill as in the amateur game. Maybe the lowest loft could be made 15D with 43.5” shafts and no rebound club faces. I could enjoy that.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Pastit

[StudentGolfer4]

4 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Tennis has had to slow the ball down. The power racket, the power game ushered in  a 1-dimensional boredom that needed fixing. They BIFURCATED ball specs for men's tennis. What do you know.

Tennis also increased the racquet size. Racquets got physically bigger in the 70s as well. Instead of 9 inches they can be found closer to 12 these days. 

[Blaiser]

I'm all for people bombing it. To me, it's a lot of fun. I can appreciate the skill it takes to swing that fast and not hit it into the parking lot.

 

That said, I really don't mind if the pro's get nerfed. It will still be golf, and will be fun to watch players vying for the win.

 

The only thing that concerns me is recreational players will probably adopt the nerfed equipment too. Pace of play is already rough when it takes people 3-4 flushed shots to reach the green -- with the current equipment.

 

Bifurcation is fine (personally don't think it needs to happen) as long as amateurs still use the longer stuff.

[Pastit]

2 minutes ago, Blaiser said:

I'm all for people bombing it. To me, it's a lot of fun. I can appreciate the skill it takes to swing that fast and not hit it into the parking lot.

 

That said, I really don't mind if the pro's get nerfed. It will still be golf, and will be fun to watch players vying for the win.

 

The only thing that concerns me is recreational players will probably adopt the nerfed equipment too. Pace of play is already rough when it takes people 3-4 flushed shots to reach the green -- with the current equipment.

 

Bifurcation is fine (personally don't think it needs to happen) as long as amateurs still use the longer stuff.

But that would stop recruitment of new Seve’s. I well remember Seve and Greg Norman competing next to each other with Persimmon drivers on Moortown Practice ground c 1980. Seve’s ball was still rising as Greg’s was dropping. 

[jvincent]

22 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

If everyone plays the same golf course and the lowest score win, no course is obsolete because that's the object of the game. What you call tricked up, is call course defense by others. 

 

The reason a classic course or any other course don't have a PGATOUR event is they do not have the property for the infrastructure needed.

 

If anyone thinks that Pro golf is Driver / wedge I suggest they rewatch the Honda Classic......I didn't see anyone over power PGA National.

 

Yes, they all play the same course.

 

Again, the arguement is that most/all of the original architectural decisions have been rendered moot by the current distance the players hit the ball. You can combat that by changing the course (moving bunkers, etc) or by shortening the ball.

 

The cry from the amateurs is that we are going to suffer. But guess what, I hit the ball as far at 56 as I do when I was 30. So yes, my course hasn't changed. But the younger kids coming up are blowing it well past me. So even my course now has to address the long hitters if they want to stay "relevant"

 

I'll extend the arguement to the course rating / handicap system. Give how far the youngsters are hitting it I'd argue it needs a complete re-thinking.

[gvogel]

On 2/27/2022 at 2:57 PM, Pastit said:

I was thinking of that drive at St Andrew’s when he went through the 18th green and nearly off the course playing with Doug Sanders ( of wobbly knees fame ). I still see modern pros short of that green with latest gear. The corollary: is it a bit rich of Jack to complain about big hitting ?

Jack had a pretty good tail wind at his back.  And Jack was pretty long.

I've seen Rory drive that green, in less windy conditions.

[Pastit]

5 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Jack had a pretty good tail wind at his back.  And Jack was pretty long.

I've seen Rory drive that green, in less windy conditions.

Rory: Yes, likely with his 3 wood. Jack definitely opened his shoulders that day - needs must. You’ll likely remember Sanders, years later, being asked how often he recalled that day’s events - “ at least once per day “.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Pastit

[Nard_S]

8 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Tennis also increased the racquet size. Racquets got physically bigger in the 70s as well. Instead of 9 inches they can be found closer to 12 these days. 

Just like golf clubs. 

Look at what happened to that game. Not really a good tale, courts are empty.  Used to be "it". McEnroe, Conners & Bjorg. Man that was good stuff. No one cares about Tennis anymore. I remember watching it go down & was like, "this sucks". Funny, bigger, stronger & faster did not sell. Still doesn't. Female tennis better. The French Open, clay court is still very cool. But that charm of the rally and the grind of it, replaced with missile serves & stab return, ruined a perfectly healthy game. Golf's already there, a guy named Tiger has kept it out of ICU for 20 years.

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Take it off.  Nothing will change.  The pros will still hit it 3 bills in the air.  They will still annihilate the Old Course when the wind doesn't blow.  Everyone will still play bomb and gouge because it is the optimal way to play most courses.

 

complete supposition. Tiger, Nick, Jack etc dont agree. You simply cant swing as hard with a regulation size clubhead (lets say <250 or so) without fear of a big miss. 

[milesgiles]

28 minutes ago, Blaiser said:

I'm all for people bombing it. To me, it's a lot of fun. I can appreciate the skill it takes to swing that fast and not hit it into the parking lot.

 

That said, I really don't mind if the pro's get nerfed. It will still be golf, and will be fun to watch players vying for the win.

 

The only thing that concerns me is recreational players will probably adopt the nerfed equipment too. Pace of play is already rough when it takes people 3-4 flushed shots to reach the green -- with the current equipment.

 

Bifurcation is fine (personally don't think it needs to happen) as long as amateurs still use the longer stuff.

 

pace of play is rough for a lot of reasons, but one is that amateurs dont play off the correct tees, they tend to head too far back. The. they HAVE to swing flat out to reach in regulation, the ball gets sprayed everywhere, and you have 5 hour rounds.

[gvogel]

54 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Pitchers have complained that the seams on the ball are smoother, so they're breaking & curve pitches don't break as much as they used to. Analytics has eliminated "small ball" baseball. Only 100 mph heat & HR's (or bust) prevails. The game is in a death spiral.

 

NBA has implemented rule changes that protect the offense to a higher degree. It's arguable, that it's a better league. For my money Jordan era rules were better and the games were more intense. It's now a 3-point clinic, with mail-it-in defense. I pay attention in the playoffs.

 

The NFL has made changes that by and large have improved the game. Their revenue backs it too. Once Tiger takes a final bow, we will see what happens to PGA because nobody has that guy's thunder. Not a one. 

Tiger and Phil won't be at Augusta this year, but I bet a lot of people will be watching anyway.  By the way, I'm from the USA, but I was rooting for Shane yesterday.  Golf will be golf.  It will be different, but many will find new players to cheer.

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

.

 

If anyone thinks that Pro golf is Driver / wedge I suggest they rewatch the Honda Classic......I didn't see anyone over power PGA National.

 

What I didnt see was hardly any of the tours top 20, most of whom rely on long driving. What does that tell you?

[ThinkingPlus]

6 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

What I didnt see was hardly any of the tours top 20, most of whom rely on long driving. What does that tell you?

That the course is hard and doesn't fit their schedule.  They wanted a week off and why not take it when the tour is playing a brutal water/wind festival in the Palm Beaches.  Exponential penalty golf is not fun.

[ThinkingPlus]

22 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

complete supposition. Tiger, Nick, Jack etc dont agree. You simply cant swing as hard with a regulation size clubhead (lets say <250 or so) without fear of a big miss. 

Yes it is my opinion.

[ChipStrokes]

26 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

complete supposition. Tiger, Nick, Jack etc dont agree. You simply cant swing as hard with a regulation size clubhead (lets say <250 or so) without fear of a big miss. 

no one seems to ease off their three or five wood. 

 

i know i don’t. 

 

you keep pushing this “i don’t like it so it must change” argument. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by ChipStrokes

[milesgiles]

17 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

no one seems to ease off their three or five wood. 

 

i know i don’t. 

 

you keep pushing this “i don’t like it so it must change” argument. 

 

golf changed, radically, when it didnt need to at all

 

 

[milesgiles]

51 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Rory: Yes, likely with his 3 wood. Jack definitely opened his shoulders that day - needs must. You’ll likely remember Sanders, years later, being asked how often he recalled that day’s events - “ at least once per day “.

 

I believe the quote was 'sometimes I go a whole 15 minutes without thinking about it'