distance debate

[Hickory4ever]

Personally, I don’t want to see great courses (Augusta, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, etc.) become irrelevant for Tour use because of what is essentially an equipment arms race. 
 

As for the ball, I remember playing with the wound balata balls. Better golfers chose them to optimize their ability to stop the ball. Off a driver, that extra spin could come back to bite you if you lunged at the ball. 
 

If and when any changes are made, I would simply play the appropriate tee blocks. I really don’t get the resistance to bifurcation, the balls and clubs in a pros bag (with the exception of drivers and FW) don’t resemble what the overwhelming majority of golfers play.

 

 

 

[dmecca2]

1 minute ago, Hickory4ever said:

Personally, I don’t want to see great courses (Augusta, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, etc.) become irrelevant for Tour use because of what is essentially an equipment arms race. 
 

As for the ball, I remember playing with the wound balata balls. Better golfers chose them to optimize their ability to stop the ball. Off a driver, that extra spin could come back to bite you if you lunged at the ball. 
 

If and when any changes are made, I would simply play the appropriate tee blocks. I really don’t get the resistance to bifurcation, the balls and clubs in a pros bag (with the exception of drivers and FW) don’t resemble what the overwhelming majority of golfers play.

 

 

 

None of those courses are at risk of becoming obsolete. The few that truly are at risk..... are they really great courses? Or is the nostalgia blinding?

[Bye]

22 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

Can't say I have. But I also don't trust what the average golfer feels or thinks is accurate. They're usually wrong.

I play on the same course now as I did when I was using a balata and the 1st generation of titanium drivers. I have seen it first hand through the years... 

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, Bye said:

The first titanium drivers mitigated some of the spin, a friend of mine had a 6.5 degree driver with a 100mph swing speed. The technique was different too, we had to learn to keep the ball down in the wind. 

 

I agree though, the OEM's would have something new within months if anything was changed. And I am aware that equipment is only part of the equation.

 

Just a funny aside to that.  I once had aspirations to get into the sport of long drive and taught myself to play a low lofted longer driver.  As a result of that, I don't know how to reliably lower my AoA anymore so I just go with it.  Problem with that is, I can't use modern drivers, at least not very easily (takes a lot of tinkering).  The modern drivers launch too high for their loft, and spin too low.  I have to use an older, higher spin, but really low lofted driver in order to keep the ball in the air on the course.  Point is, they have come a long ways with the drivers spin mitigation wise, and that combined with my swing style, creates low spin dyeing quails.  As a result of that, I would love to try a wound ball if they made them new today just so I can buy a shiny new driver and actually be able to game it.

[Bye]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Just a funny aside to that.  I once had aspirations to get into the sport of long drive and taught myself to play a low lofted longer driver.  As a result of that, I don't know how to reliably lower my AoA anymore so I just go with it.  Problem with that is, I can't use modern drivers, at least not very easily (takes a lot of tinkering).  The modern drivers launch too high for their loft, and spin too low.  I have to use an older, higher spin, but really low lofted driver in order to keep the ball in the air on the course.  Point is, they have come a long ways with the drivers spin mitigation wise, and that combined with my swing style, creates low spin dyeing quails.  As a result of that, I would love to try a wound ball if they made them new today just so I can buy a shiny new driver and actually be able to game it.

I feel your pain. I was quite good with the a persimmon, steel head and early TI drivers. I struggle to keep it on the course with the new ones too.  

[dmecca2]

10 minutes ago, Bye said:

I play on the same course now as I did when I was using a balata and the 1st generation of titanium drivers. I have seen it first hand through the years... 

So many variables my head is spinning

[storm319]

1 hour ago, dmecca2 said:

 

Problem with this test is that these balata golf balls are no longer accurate because of their age. Sure they're still sealed in a box, but the shelf life of those liquid filled balls is not long at all. Their approximation of 1-2% loss from age is a guess at best and seems generous to get the results they want. I don't get why people go through the time to do these tests when there is a major scientific flaw like this.

Conformation bias

[clevited]

4 minutes ago, Bye said:

I feel your pain. I was quite good with the a persimmon, steel head and early TI drivers. I struggle to keep it on the course with the new ones too.  

 

I have a collection of older clubs, including some laminated woods.  One of them is amazing.  I can actually get really nice numbers off the tee and I like to bring it with me to the range on occasion just for fun.

[Bye]

5 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

So many variables my head is spinning

Probably nearly as much as the ball use to. 

[Hickory4ever]

1 minute ago, dmecca2 said:

None of those courses are at risk of becoming obsolete. The few that truly are at risk..... are they really great courses? Or is the nostalgia blinding?

There are a lot of courses with exceptional design that are not suitable for tour play today and the list will grow. Your question are they really great golf courses, apparently they are given the demand as private courses or as premium destinations if accessible to the public. 

 

Call it nostalgia if you will, many of the current pros favour playing on some of these tracks. I would urge you and others to not be so dismissive of others opinions. I like to play well designed golf courses that challenge my golfing abilities and course management skills, regardless of when they were designed. 
 

In my opinion, a few equipment changes would be beneficial. 

[dmecca2]

13 minutes ago, Hickory4ever said:

There are a lot of courses with exceptional design that are not suitable for tour play today and the list will grow. Your question are they really great golf courses, apparently they are given the demand as private courses or as premium destinations if accessible to the public. 

 

Call it nostalgia if you will, many of the current pros favour playing on some of these tracks. I would urge you and others to not be so dismissive of others opinions. I like to play well designed golf courses that challenge my golfing abilities and course management skills, regardless of when they were designed. 
 

In my opinion, a few equipment changes would be beneficial. 

Really great golf courses can still be really great golf courses for the other 99%.

 

In my opinion, there is no problem with distance, and bifurcation creates a whole slew of trickle down problems that just creates more of a mess than a solution.

[StudentGolfer4]

36 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

None of those courses are at risk of becoming obsolete. The few that truly are at risk..... are they really great courses? Or is the nostalgia blinding?

I could not disagree with this any more. In 86 shinnecock hosted the us open at 6900 yards, in 04 is was just shy of 7000 yards. In 2018 is was 7450 

 

In 1999 Pinehurst was 7200 yards par 70. I. 2015 it was 7550

 

Between 2002 and 2009 bethpage was lengthened 200 yards. 

In 2000 the masters played just shy of 7000 yards. In 2021 it was just under 7500. They have made changes to lengthen it again for the 2022 event. 
 

In 98 the Olympic club was 6800 it was 7200 in 2013. (Sure it’s not quite as elite as the others mentioned). 

 

And yes, without question, all of the courses listed above are some of the very best in the country. 
 

To say great courses are not in danger of becoming obsolete is false. I would argue that without the significant lengthening some of them would already be there. 

[ChipStrokes]

19 minutes ago, Hickory4ever said:

I like to play well designed golf courses that challenge my golfing abilities and course management skills, regardless of when they were designed. 

how far professional golfers hit the ball won't have any affect on your ability to do that.  

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, dmecca2 said:

None of those courses are at risk of becoming obsolete. The few that truly are at risk..... are they really great courses? Or is the nostalgia blinding?

When the 13th hole at Augusta National becomes a drive and short iron, that hole, at least, is obsolete.

[dmecca2]

10 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I could not disagree with this any more. In 86 shinnecock hosted the us open at 6900 yards, in 04 is was just shy of 7000 yards. In 2018 is was 7450 

 

In 1999 Pinehurst was 7200 yards par 70. I. 2015 it was 7550

 

Between 2002 and 2009 bethpage was lengthened 200 yards. 

In 2000 the masters played just shy of 7000 yards. In 2021 it was just under 7500. They have made changes to lengthen it again for the 2022 event. 
 

In 98 the Olympic club was 6800 it was 7200 in 2013. (Sure it’s not quite as elite as the others mentioned). 

 

And yes, without question, all of the courses listed above are some of the very best in the country. 
 

To say great courses are not in danger of becoming obsolete is false. I would argue that without the significant lengthening some of them would already be there. 

The courses that have the ability to be lengthened will be lengthened and be better courses because of it. Those are some of them. Those that cant be lengthened will either be ok as is for the pros, or be amazing courses for the other 99% of golfers.

[dmecca2]

1 minute ago, gvogel said:

When the 13th hole at Augusta National becomes a drive and short iron, that hole, at least, is obsolete.

 

True. But that is a unique dogleg and I think they have it figured out. It played well last year.

[MUNIGRIT]

6 minutes ago, gvogel said:

When the 13th hole at Augusta National becomes a drive and short iron, that hole, at least, is obsolete.

Whats obsolete about it? Just the labeling of par. It is already an easy par 5 or hard par 4. 

[ChipStrokes]

10 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Whats obsolete about it? Just the labeling of par. It is already an easy par 5 or hard par 4. 

its easier than when Jack played it, so it's bad

 

- everyone in favor of equipment rollbacks

[Pastit]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

When the 13th hole at Augusta National becomes a drive and short iron, that hole, at least, is obsolete.

It’s been obsolete since c Faldo’s time. At least as originally designed. Love to see the late 1930’s cards for that whole period to help this argument. Only the very longest player should reach it in 2 with a 50 mpg gale behind. It’s a par 4. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Pastit

[dmecca2]

18 minutes ago, Pastit said:

It’s been obsolete since c Faldo’s time. At least as originally designed. Love to see the late 1930’s cards for that whole to help this argument. Only the very longest player should reach it in 2 with a 50 mpg gale behind. It’s a par 4. 

You watch the tournament last year?

[Pastit]

6 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

You watch the tournament last year?

Probably but I no longer have the TV package allowing Amen Corner to be viewed specifically. My point is that I’d hope to see from pre-WW2 cards that it was only hit in 2 shots rarely and in exceptional conditions. For that to happen now the tee would have to be back down 11. 
 

I’m sure it was Bubba who hit a 7i in there for his 2nd. 

[oikos1]

1 hour ago, Hickory4ever said:

Personally, I don’t want to see great courses (Augusta, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, etc.) become irrelevant for Tour use because of what is essentially an equipment arms race. 
 

As for the ball, I remember playing with the wound balata balls. Better golfers chose them to optimize their ability to stop the ball. Off a driver, that extra spin could come back to bite you if you lunged at the ball. 
 

If and when any changes are made, I would simply play the appropriate tee blocks. I really don’t get the resistance to bifurcation, the balls and clubs in a pros bag (with the exception of drivers and FW) don’t resemble what the overwhelming majority of golfers play.

 

 

 

Honestly, what you mention above are PGA Tour issues.  Surely the Tour is most concerned about the venues they host tournaments at, and since you have suggested bifurcation, then certainly the PGA Tour could make specific equipment requirements for professional golfers.

 

There is no reason the USGA/R&A need to do anything.  Golf courses are not becoming obsolete due to advances in equipment technology.  It's a PGA Tour issue and they will change when the almighty dollar tells them it's time to change.

[dmecca2]

12 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Probably but I no longer have the TV package allowing Amen Corner to be viewed specifically. My point is that I’d hope to see from pre-WW2 cards that it was only hit in 2 shots rarely and in exceptional conditions. For that to happen now the tee would have to be back down 11. 
 

I’m sure it was Bubba who hit a 7i in there for his 2nd. 

Then you would have noticed how many pros laid up or hit long irons into the green. Bubba has a unique ability to curve the ball a massive amount. That helps on dogleg holes.

 

There are only a select few par 5's that pros hit rarely and in exceptional conditions. Generally, they are the least exciting, most hated holes on tour.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Whats obsolete about it? Just the labeling of par. It is already an easy par 5 or hard par 4. 

 

I would encourage you to read up on the intended challenge that hole was supposed to present the golfer.  Several choices.  It was never intended to be an easy par five.  Perhaps a short par five that, due to the lack of length, tempted the golfer into biting off more than what was advisable off the tee and with his second shot.  

 

This doesn't do the intent justice but offers a glimpse > https://www.augusta.com/masters/story/news/2018-04-07/no-13s-challenge-has-faded-recent-years-augusta-national

 

http://theaposition.com/brianmccallen/golf/262/augusta-nationals-alluring-13th-hole

 

You can lay back some off the tee and stay up high and on relatively flat ground to prevent the hanging lie, or bite off more off the tee with a draw and be closer to the green, but at the expense of being on the hanging lie.  Hanging lie with a persimmon 4 wood or 2i is probably no picnic.  Hanging lie with a 8i today who cares?  So you are back there in the fairway with your trusty baffing spoon in hand and contemplating do I go for the green or do i play out short right and pitch on.  Who is laying up with a short or mid iron in hand?

 

Being able to go up over that dog leg has all but killed that hole (from a strategy standpoint), even with 55 yards added.

 

 

[Pastit]

8 minutes ago, dmecca2 said:

Then you would have noticed how many pros laid up or hit long irons into the green. Bubba has a unique ability to curve the ball a massive amount. That helps on dogleg holes.

 

There are only a select few par 5's that pros hit rarely and in exceptional conditions. Generally, they are the least exciting, most hated holes on tour.

It def suits a LH fade but now only those hitting the pine straw area tend to lay up. But, in Faldo’s time, and before, the choice was a risky long iron off a downhill lie so there was no decision to be made. This is a game changer but it’s still an interesting hole but nowhere near the original test. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Pastit

[oikos1]

10 minutes ago, Pastit said:

Probably but I no longer have the TV package allowing Amen Corner to be viewed specifically. My point is that I’d hope to see from pre-WW2 cards that it was only hit in 2 shots rarely and in exceptional conditions. For that to happen now the tee would have to be back down 11. 
 

I’m sure it was Bubba who hit a 7i in there for his 2nd. 

2021 Masters scores on #13 Bubba Watson:

 

Round 1 : 4

Round 2: 4

Round 3: 5

Round 4: 5

Total: -2

 

2021 Masters scores on #13 Will Zalatoris: (finished 2nd)

 

Round 1 : 4

Round 2: 5

Round 3: 6

Round 4: 5

Total: Even

 

2021 Masters scores on #13 Hideki Matsuyama: (Winner)

 

Round 1 : 4

Round 2: 3

Round 3: 5

Round 4: 4

Total: -4

 

That is exactly what one would expect to see for scores on #13 for the eventual winner. 

 

The idea that #13 at Augusta is obsolete is absurd.  The back nine at Augusta is the greatest risk/reward, make a charge back nine in golf.  No lead is safe.  A pro has a chance at 6 under or 6 over.  Guess what?  That's what the majority of those being entertained want to see. 

[Pastit]

3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I would encourage you to read up on the intended challenge that hole was supposed to present the golfer.  Several choices.  It was never intended to be an easy par five.  Perhaps a short par five that, due to the lack of length, tempted the golfer into biting off more than what was advisable off the tee and with his second shot.  

 

This doesn't do the intent justice but offers a glimpse > https://www.augusta.com/masters/story/news/2018-04-07/no-13s-challenge-has-faded-recent-years-augusta-national

 

http://theaposition.com/brianmccallen/golf/262/augusta-nationals-alluring-13th-hole

 

You can lay back some off the tee and stay up high and on relatively flat ground to prevent the hanging lie, or bite off more off the tee with a draw and be closer to the green, but at the expense of being on the hanging lie.  Hanging lie with a persimmon 4 wood or 2i is probably no picnic.  Hanging lie with a 8i today who cares?  So you are back there in the fairway with your trusty baffing spoon in hand and contemplating do I go for the green or do i play out short right and pitch on.  Who is laying up with a short or mid iron in hand?

 

Being able to go up over that dog leg has all but killed that hole (from a strategy standpoint), even with 55 yards added.

 

 

Thanks for posting, you nailed it. I’ll enjoy the links.  Cheers

[Pastit]

2 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

2021 Masters scores on #13 Bubba Watson:

 

Round 1 : 4

Round 2: 4

Round 3: 5

Round 4: 5

Total: -2

 

2021 Masters scores on #13 Will Zalatoris: (finished 2nd)

 

Round 1 : 4

Round 2: 5

Round 3: 6

Round 4: 5

Total: Even

 

2021 Masters scores on #13 Hideki Matsuyama: (Winner)

 

Round 1 : 4

Round 2: 3

Round 3: 5

Round 4: 4

Total: -4

 

That is exactly what one would expect to see for scores on #13 for the eventual winner. 

 

The idea that #13 at Augusta is obsolete is absurd.  The back nine at Augusta is the greatest risk/reward, make a charge back nine in golf.  No lead is safe.  A pro has a chance at 6 under or 6 over.  Guess what?  That's what the majority of those being entertained want to see. 

I’m nearly 75 and can still eagle a par 5 of 532 yds with modern gear. Albeit on a running links course with 3 wood 2nd. Of course I enjoy it, but the 13th at Augusta is clearly emasculated. 

[Hickory4ever]

8 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Honestly, what you mention above are PGA Tour issues.  Surely the Tour is most concerned about the venues they host tournaments at, and since you have suggested bifurcation, then certainly the PGA Tour could make specific equipment requirements for professional golfers.

 

There is no reason the USGA/R&A need to do anything.  Golf courses are not becoming obsolete due to advances in equipment technology.  It's a PGA Tour issue and they will change when the almighty dollar tells them it's time to change.

I agree that it is a PGA tour issue and that the almighty dollar will be the driving force. I don’t believe the pro tours want to get into the rules business except with a few local rules. Making rules doesn’t make you popular.
 

The next years are going to be interesting, the post Tiger era. TV revenue is such a big contributor that is undergoing a significant shift to online systems which may change the economics somewhat. I also believe that the potential lack of star power could have impacts. I am an avid golf nut that is watching less golf (does not affect my desire to play) because watching Driver short iron to almost all par 4’s and 5’s as entertaining, especially with an army of no names. 
 

I thank everybody for this lively banter as it has kept me entertained during the off season. 

 

 

[klebs01]

The idea that this doesn’t impact 99% is just wrong. I agree that it’s not 100%, but it’s closer to 10%. Nearly every decent course in my area is dealing with problems from distance. Struggling to lengthen courses and move tees and sometimes greens due to safety issues and how far the ball is traveling now. If you just play with 3 times a year golfers at a local dog track you may not see it but there are tons of decent golfers that hit it 300+ regularly now. The biggest reason to roll the ball back is because it’s flying farther offline, both on and off the course.