distance debate

[jvincent]

8 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

ive not heard any of them talk about increasing drag

 

Correct. Because the golfing powers that be, for the most part, don't understand the science.

[Soloman1]

Ever have the feeling like you’ve been through this before?

 

Oh, I think they understand the science. I think it’s risk management they’re concerned about - club manufacturers, amateurs, competitive events, professional events, spectator expectations.

 

Golf is a business, not just a game.

 

They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

[farmer]

5 hours ago, djmohab2 said:

Not to mention, okay lofts have changed, but have shaft lengths? That's why it may not be as simple as you guys are making it out to be. You guys are so consumed by what number is on the sole of the club. Know what distance it goes, know how to hit it. Play accordingly. Who cares what to call them?

My Maltby book has a Tiltleist 5 iron at 37 1/4 inches, pretty much standard for the day.  I have handled a 6 iron from the era of plastic wrapped shafts which was very close to a modern 8 iron.

[gvogel]

6 minutes ago, farmer said:

My Maltby book has a Tiltleist 5 iron at 37 1/4 inches, pretty much standard for the day.  I have handled a 6 iron from the era of plastic wrapped shafts which was very close to a modern 8 iron.

I have a hickory 5-iron that has a loft of about 34*, and 37" length - about the same as a modern 7 iron from 10 years ago.

[ChipStrokes]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

if equipment hadnt changed so radically perhaps we could actually judge if players were bigger, better and faster 

a few pages back you admitted to players being more athletic than they were in the 60s and 70s. 

 

which is it?

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

Ever have the feeling like you’ve been through this before?

 

Oh, I think they understand the science. I think it’s risk management they’re concerned about - club manufacturers, amateurs, competitive events, professional events, spectator expectations.

 

Golf is a business, not just a game.

 

They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

 

Do the guys on the technical committee understand the science? Yes.

 

Do the rest of the USGA executive? No. They are, for the most part, lawyers, businesspeople, etc. 

 

Ultimately, I think they are cowards when it comes to this. They've been bitching and moaning about distance for I don't know how many years now. There is a very simple technical solution available to them that would have negligible, if any, legal repercussions, that they could have introduced any time in the last 5(?) years. 

 

My prediction is if they choose to address it they will come up with something stupid.

[ChipStrokes]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

Hell Im embarrassed to use it now and im a scrub.

then don’t use it.

 

maybe that would end this thread. 

[GolfTurkey]

Why is there this general consensus that rolling back the ball / distance would hurt the shorter guys more?

 

Distance has always been an advantage, but there is a trend towards a higher minimum speed requirement to make it to and be successful on the PGA Tour. Does anyone think Corey Pavin would have more success on tour if he was young now?

Edited February 25, 2022 by GolfTurkey

[Soloman1]

27 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Ultimately, I think they are cowards when it comes to this.

 

I think “cowards” is a strong word and this doesn’t have to be an emotional issue.

[amace04]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

Hell Im embarrassed to use it now and im a scrub.

You shouldn't...

[milesgiles]

7 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

a few pages back you admitted to players being more athletic than they were in the 60s and 70s. 

 

which is it?

 

munigrit said more athletic AND better

 

if they were using remotely comparable equipment we might have some basis to compare

[MUNIGRIT]

6 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

munigrit said more athletic AND better

 

if they were using remotely comparable equipment we might have some basis to compare

They are better. They have better coaching, practice facilities, fitness programs and start at a much younger age. There were a handful of good players back in the day. Now if you don't play well you are off the tour quickly. Guys win right out of college and go to the top right away all the time. That used to never happen. 

[Duct Tape]

16 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

That was folklore back in the day. Lifting weights is bad for your golf swing. That was until TW. But we hear all sorts of dumb s*** like drive for show putt for dough and just need to narrow the fairways for the eliminate the bombers. Golfers are always looking for excuses and this distance argument is one of them.

I’m guessing both Tiger Woods and Patrick Cantlay lift weights.   
 

Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😉

[Titleist99]

Most golfers go to the gym for strength and speed training......not to lift weights. IMO 

[me05501]

How about this idea as an alternative to bifurcation: limit the number of clubs allowed in the pro game to something less than 14. 

 

If it's shotmaking we want to see just let today's pros learn to work around the limitations of a 10-11 club bag. No further ball or gear rules necessary. 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by me05501

[ChipStrokes]

34 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

I’m guessing both Tiger Woods and Patrick Cantlay lift weights.   
 

Sorry, couldn’t resist. 😉

take a good look at patrick cantlay and tell me if you really think he’s ever lifted much more than his golf bag. 

[MtlJeff]

7 minutes ago, me05501 said:

How about this idea as an alternative to bifurcation: limit the number of clubs allowed in the pro game to something less than 14. 

 

If it's shotmaking we want to see just let today's pros learn to work around the limitations of a 10-11 club bag. No further ball or gear rules necessary. 

 

 

 

I was thinking the other day about loft too---Like could you limit the minimum loft on the PGA tour to like 12-13 degrees. It would make it a lot harder for Bryson to play like an LD event.

 

Maybe a dumb idea. But the thought did occur to me

[me05501]

2 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I was thinking the other day about loft too---Like could you limit the minimum loft on the PGA tour to like 12-13 degrees. It would make it a lot harder for Bryson to play like an LD event.

 

Maybe a dumb idea. But the thought did occur to me

 

It does seem logical to impose limits on professional players that do not involve having two kinds of balls or two kinds of clubs. 

 

I actually think limiting the number of clubs would create more interest in what they were carrying and why which would be good for the OEM's.

 

It's not as if scoring is going to change much...most guys would drop two irons and a wedge or fairway wood and adjust lofts to compensate. Maybe they'd start using the whole tee box on par threes (backing up two club lengths to use a longer iron, for example). It would give analysts something else to discuss. 

 

Basically it's something the pro game could do to say they did something, and most players would adapt fairly easily. If they wanted to soften the blow they could start allowing rangefinders during competition. 

[gvogel]

14 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

take a good look at patrick cantlay and tell me if you really think he’s ever lifted much more than his golf bag. 

So you're saying that you don't have to work out to average 306 off the tee.

[Pastit]

17 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

take a good look at patrick cantlay and tell me if you really think he’s ever lifted much more than his golf bag. 

His wallet perhaps ?

[ChipStrokes]

6 minutes ago, gvogel said:

So you're saying that you don't have to work out to average 306 off the tee.

no, i don’t think you really do. 

 

he swings his driver 115mph, which is nothing for someone under 30 who can walk and chew gum. 

 

he hits the center of the face and gets massive amounts of roll on perfect fairways. 

[Duct Tape]

28 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

take a good look at patrick cantlay and tell me if you really think he’s ever lifted much more than his golf bag. 

You do realize thus was a joke, in response to a few posts several pages back?

 

I have no idea about much of anything about Patrick Cantlay except he maybe should smile more. 

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, Duct Tape said:

You do realize thus was a joke, in response to a few posts several pages back?

 

I have no idea about much of anything about Patrick Cantlay except he maybe should smile more. 

i picked up on it after the fact. it was a quality call back. 

[storm319]

On 2/24/2022 at 8:08 AM, amace04 said:

Alternate theory:

Distance is not, and has never been a problem.

 

If it were a "Problem", then evidently Bryson, Rory, DJ, Champ, Wolff, etc. have cleaned up the tournaments over the past several years.

 

44% of approach shots on tour are from 180+  That's a 7i for most.

 

This whole "Driver/Wedge" thing is completely made up.  It maybe happens a handful of times a round for only select players (with the exceptions of driveable Par 4s).

 

What you DO see is players being more aggressive.  The old mindset of laying up to be safe is gone for a lot of guys.  The numbers show going for a green on a short par 4, even if there's a bunker nearby results in lower scores than leaving yourself a 90y wedge in.

 

 

100%. The main incentive for the shift to a more aggressive playing approach and tighter competition on tour...money. Even Champions Tour events payout more than inflation adjusted pre-1980 levels. While I don't disagree that equipment has had an impact, there is no denying the impact that money has had on the tour product we see on tv over the past 20 years and no equipment rollback will bring back that older style of play.

 

Below is a list of Masters winning payouts and inflation adjustments for each decade since 1950 to illustrate just how much more money is at stake today. 

 

Year    Winning Payout    2020 Adjustment
1950       2400                  25800
1960      17500               153000
1970      25000               166800
1980      55000               172800
1990     225000              445600
2000     828000            1244500
2010    1350000            1602300
2020    2070000            2070000

[storm319]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:22 AM, gvogel said:

I would like to see the equipment changed so that elite players could be tested on courses of 6,800 yards or so.  They could move the tees back up, and keep the new tees for the super humans who will be playing in 2050.  That's forward looking.

 

Meanwhile, the pros will play shorter courses, and have a chance to decrease the time spent playing.

 

This would only work if playing time were linear per yard, but that is not the reality. The average PGA Tour event playing length is approximately 7200 yards which is a little over 5-6% longer than your desired length. Given that professionals spend the majority of the hole time on and around the greens, your proposed scaling would likely have a negligible impact to professional playing time.

[Titleist99]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:08 AM, amace04 said:

Alternate theory:

Distance is not, and has never been a problem.

 

If it were a "Problem", then evidently Bryson, Rory, DJ, Champ, Wolff, etc. have cleaned up the tournaments over the past several years.

 

44% of approach shots on tour are from 180+  That's a 7i for most.

 

This whole "Driver/Wedge" thing is completely made up.  It maybe happens a handful of times a round for only select players (with the exceptions of driveable Par 4s).

 

What you DO see is players being more aggressive.  The old mindset of laying up to be safe is gone for a lot of guys.  The numbers show going for a green on a short par 4, even if there's a bunker nearby results in lower scores than leaving yourself a 90y wedge in.

This is a great visual of how that's changed over the years.

https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiMzczZmUyMWQtYzA0Yi00ZmNlLWFmNmEtZWRlNjViZTU2M2Y5IiwidCI6ImJiNjY5NzU2LWM0YTktNDYwMS1hOWYyLWQyNDRlNTQzNzk3MSIsImMiOjJ9

 

A few observations:

Golf courses need to be shorter ......more drivable Par4's and shorter/tougher Par3's.

 

From this day forward the talking point that Touring pros hit driver/wedge into every hole shall be known as

"THE BIG LIE"

[Titleist99]

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Posted yesterday at 09:00 AM (edited)

  On 2/24/2022 at 8:20 AM, dmecca2 said:

Hot take nowadays: Golf is perfectly fine with the parameters set in place. Make the fairways on tour not run out 50 yards and watch what it does to the data. Sure, some classic courses have become obsolete, but that's ok. That happens in a growing game. F1 doesn't race with the same cars from 10 years ago. Sports change, and just because the sport isn't the same as it was when you grew up, doesn't mean it needs to change. Courses that can adapt and host professional events (The ONLY population that this debate is about) will do that. Courses that can't adapt and grow, will still be perfectly fine courses for the other 99% of players.

 

 

The only golf courses that's obsolete and will not get a PGATOUR event is the ones that will not support the infrastructure. The tour is about making money not nostalgia..........

Edited February 25, 2022 by Titleist99

[storm319]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:45 PM, blackbdmillsaps said:

 

Not having to lengthen courses continually for the next 50 years. 

 

This fallacy as well. According to the USGA distance insights report, the vast majority of course lengthening occurred between 1930 and 1990 which is well before the equipment paradigm shifts that people are arguing about. What is the average course increase since 1990 you may ask? 100 yards on average in ~30 years based on USGA data. Even if you look at the more drastic increases of the relatively small number of classic courses, none have been lengthened more than 10% in that time period so the constant bemoaning is over-exaggerated. 

[storm319]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:47 PM, MUNIGRIT said:

It has always changed. You don't want me to point out that they played with feathered ball and hickory shafts at one point do you? You don't think the players in the 50's heard same old grumps whining about these new age guys and steel shafts? How far are we rolling the equipment back? No matter what you do the guys who are long will still be long and guys who are short will still be short. 

 Old Tom Morris was literally fired during his first stint at St Andrews over this. The head pro ran a feathery production business and Tom was promoting the gutty so he had to go. Every paradigm shift in equipment has faced detractors so this argument is not new. 

[storm319]

9 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

They are better. They have better coaching, practice facilities, fitness programs and start at a much younger age. There were a handful of good players back in the day. Now if you don't play well you are off the tour quickly. Guys win right out of college and go to the top right away all the time. That used to never happen. 

 

I also highly doubt there was anyone bank rolling aspiring tour players for a cut of future winnings 50 years ago. The incentive has drastically increased which is a big reason for the flattening of competition.