distance debate

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

What I can see is that John Daly (remember him?) was around 288 - 289 for around 6 years, but then gained 16 yards after 1996 to 2002.  Same fat guy, same great tempo. 

Watching the ‘92 Masters….Ted Schulz(sp?) PW into 16.  Jacked up lofts in ‘92?😏

 

And John wasn’t fat yet then. And drivers were about 250cc in ‘96.  Guess they’ll need to be smaller yet than most suggested.

[MUNIGRIT]

41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Watching the ‘92 Masters….Ted Schulz(sp?) PW into 16.  Jacked up lofts in ‘92?😏

 

And John wasn’t fat yet then. And drivers were about 250cc in ‘96.  Guess they’ll need to be smaller yet than most suggested.

Yup Fred hit 7 iron after an offline drive. He hooked it 50 plus yards and was long. Interesting to know what the loft was on that iron. Course was soggy so let's get out in front of that too.

[farmer]

I think I posted this earlier, but just in case.  According to my 1974 Maltby club repair book, club lofts are about one club stronger today than in 1974.  PW was 50-52* and down in 4* increments, generally.

[munichop]

So all of you are saying Augusta should have kept the course the same distance?

[Nard_S]

20 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Just like every sport players have got bigger, faster and evolved. Maybe not on the top end elite guys but the whole group in general. Trying to say I cherry picked DL3 and Norman is funny because that just shows you the evolution. Yes they were one of the longer players but now days a large percent of the field would swing at a similar speed. So they even had a bigger advantage back then.

I'm bigger , stronger & better, my driving average is up 25 yards from 25 years ago. Not the gear at all.

[Nard_S]

20 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

 

double post.

 

edit II: .....meanwhile Augusta has spent millions redefining the course just to keep approach irons relevant. What's new is they just regraded greens, and according to Tiger it is to put bite back into the landing and match the dececnt angle the ball now comes in on........yeah, nothing to see here.... PGA guys are just super strong now.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Nard_S

[Titleist99]

Augusta National is the wrong golf course to use for any distance debate because they have no rough there. The course is a second shot golf course and the best iron player combine with the best putter will win the event.......

Look for the best greens approach stat to play heavy in this test of golf......IMO

 

By the way, unmanicured rough looks terrible on television and the Masters Just isn't having that......(LOL!)

[oikos1]

20 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Augusta National is the wrong golf course to use for any distance debate because they have no rough there. The course is a second shot golf course and the best iron player combine with the best putter will win the event.......

Look for the best greens approach stat to play heavy in this test of golf......IMO

 

By the way, unmanicured rough looks terrible on television and the Masters Just isn't having that......(LOL!)

It's the wrong golf course to use for any debate except for who wins there.  It is the most manipulated golf course in the history of golf.  It literally is golf's Shangri-la.

[Titleist99]

3 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

It's the wrong golf course to use for any debate except for who wins there.  It is the most manipulated golf course in the history of golf.  It literally is golf's Shangri-la.

100%

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

double post.

 

edit II: .....meanwhile Augusta has spent millions redefining the course just to keep approach irons relevant. What's new is they just regraded greens, and according to Tiger it is to put bite back into the landing and match the dececnt angle the ball now comes in on........yeah, nothing to see here.... PGA guys are just super strong now.

Justin Thomas was commenting yesterday about how difficult it is to walk Augusta.  And one of his reasons is that they have to walk 50 to 75 yards, or more, behind where the tees were originally set up.  Then, after they hit their drives, they pass those tees again on the way to their balls. 

[munichop]

Of course ANGC should be used for comparisons. It is the only major that stays on the same property every year. So if you believe distance gains are not an issue why then did the golf course get lengthened so much? Are you claiming they wasted all that money? They themselves have publicly said they try to maintain the shot values. To observe all they have done and conclude distance isn’t a fundamental issue to be addressed is just absurd. BTW Rory carried a driver 324 on the range this morning…

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, gvogel said:

Justin Thomas was commenting yesterday about how difficult it is to walk Augusta.  And one of his reasons is that they have to walk 50 to 75 yards, or more, behind where the tees were originally set up.  Then, after they hit their drives, they pass those tees again on the way to their balls. 

Well then….50 yards a hole…your minimum…..would be 900yards.  Pray tell when they added by your estimate over 1000 yards to the course?  
Yes, the ball and woods go a bit further than 25+ years ago.  But embellishing that much makes your point worthless.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Shilgy

[StudentGolfer4]

It is interesting that Fred Ridley made a statement last year about not wanting to see an 8000 yard masters while simultaneously pushing the course past 7500 yards and purchasing pretty much all the land adjacent to where the course currently is. (I don’t have proof of the second part but this is what numerous locals told me when I was in town. Some of you may be familiar with the Hooters in Augusta. Apparently that shopping center and vacant buildings behind hooters are now owned by the course too. 
 
The comment about it being a difficult walk due to the walk back to tees is a good point. After walking the course, it seems like every tee box on the front required a walk back, aside from 3 and the par 3s. This is not an issue from the member tees, nor it is a problem specific to Augusta. 

[StudentGolfer4]

8 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Well then….50 yards a hole…your minimum…..would be 900yards.  Pray tell when the added by your estimate over 1000 yards to the course?  
Yes, the ball and woods go a bit further than 25+ years ago.  But embellishing that much makes your point worthless.

I didn’t read this as saying it was a new problem or occurrence. With member tees being played around 6300 and the Masters playing 7500 the idea of a walk back 50-75 yards does add up though.
 

Obviously I don’t know how JT meant it but to me it seems like if it’s an extra 50 yard walk that could just mean he has to walk 25 back to the box and then 25 back up to where they started. Not necessarily 50 hards back to the box. Where the tee box is on 2 at Augusta is a good example of this. Coming off of 1 green instead of continuing to walk the direction of the hole/fairway, you turn around and walk 30-40 yards back to the tee box. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

It is interesting that Fred Ridley made a statement last year about not wanting to see an 8000 yard masters while simultaneously pushing the course past 7500 yards and purchasing pretty much all the land adjacent to where the course currently is. (I don’t have proof of the second part but this is what numerous locals told me when I was in town. Some of you may be familiar with the Hooters in Augusta. Apparently that shopping center and vacant buildings behind hooters are now owned by the course too. 
 
The comment about it being a difficult walk due to the walk back to tees is a good point. After walking the course, it seems like every tee box on the front required a walk back, aside from 3 and the par 3s. This is not an issue from the member tees, nor it is a problem specific to Augusta. 

Augusta National has been tinkered with continuously since it was built.  Makes one wonder what technology made them add 250 yards from 1937 to 1952.  Or why it was reduced 135 yards from 1981 to 1982.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Shilgy

[Titleist99]

32 minutes ago, munichop said:

Of course ANGC should be used for comparisons. It is the only major that stays on the same property every year. So if you believe distance gains are not an issue why then did the golf course get lengthened so much? Are you claiming they wasted all that money? They themselves have publicly said they try to maintain the shot values. To observe all they have done and conclude distance isn’t a fundamental issue to be addressed is just absurd. BTW Rory carried a driver 324 on the range this morning…

LOL!.....what difference does it make if one player hit a drive of 324 yards on the range!?!

Yepers, Rory, Champ, Bryson and other long hitter are tearing up Agusta National alright.

 

ANGC just like buying up land. They don't have to lengthen their course....they WANTED to lengthen their golf course.....big difference. But you knew that anyway, right!?!

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

LOL!.....what difference does it make if one player hit a drive of 324 yards on the range!?!

Yepers, Rory, Champ, Bryson and other long hitter are tearing up Agusta National alright.

 

ANGC just like buying up land. They don't have to lengthen their course....they WANTED to lengthen their golf course.....big difference. But you knew that anyway, right!?!

[milesgiles]

6 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

LOL!.....what difference does it make if one player hit a drive of 324 yards on the range!?!

Yepers, Rory, Champ, Bryson and other long hitter are tearing up Agusta National alright.

 

ANGC just like buying up land. They don't have to lengthen their course....they WANTED to lengthen their golf course.....big difference. But you knew that anyway, right!?!

 

sorry who are you quoting when you say they WANTED to lengthen? Which committee member?

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

It's the wrong golf course to use for any debate except for who wins there.  It is the most manipulated golf course in the history of golf.  It literally is golf's Shangri-la.

Fred Ridley, Chairman of ANGC confirmed our comments this afternoon......How bout that.

[Titleist99]

11 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

sorry who are you quoting when you say they WANTED to lengthen? Which committee member?

It's based on the fact that everyone plays the same golf course and the lowest score wins. That is the concept of the game of golf.

 

That's why you can have a wonderful event on a golf course like Pebble Beach that's 7000 +/- yards with no problem.......

 

Just common sense to me.......IMO

[woodriff]

15 hours ago, farmer said:

I think I posted this earlier, but just in case.  According to my 1974 Maltby club repair book, club lofts are about one club stronger today than in 1974.  PW was 50-52* and down in 4* increments, generally.

I’m surprised it’s only one club stronger. I was thinking 1 1/2 or a full 2 clubs stronger.  Thanks for the info. 

[oikos1]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

sorry who are you quoting when you say they WANTED to lengthen? Which committee member?

Lol.  As if members speak their minds openly about Augusta policies and procedures.  Further more, you seem to be suggesting that Augusta was forced to lengthen the course.  Augusta does whatever Augusta wants.  Any course changes are the result of a choice made by Augusta National to make such changes.  I highly doubt they would ever admit making changes to satisfy anyone or anything other than the image of the business that is Augusta National.

[Titleist99]

"August National strive to be relevant to all age groups"

                                                     ~Fred Ridley

                                                  Chairman, Augusta National

[Titleist99]

23 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  As if members speak their minds openly about Augusta policies and procedures.  Further more, you seem to be suggesting that Augusta was forced to lengthen the course.  Augusta does whatever Augusta wants.  Any course changes are the result of a choice made by Augusta National to make such changes.  I highly doubt they would ever admit making changes to satisfy anyone or anything other than the image of the business that is Augusta National.

Well said,......the sad part about it, is the fact that we have to repeat common knowledge.

(I kid)

 

[Shilgy]

22 minutes ago, woodriff said:

I’m surprised it’s only one club stronger. I was thinking 1 1/2 or a full 2 clubs stronger.  Thanks for the info. 

Depends on the brand.  Most players clubs these days start with 46* PW.  That is one club stronger than the old specs of 50*.  Many game improvement clubs are one club stronger than that.  Buddy got the PXG 0211.  Looked up the specs and club for club they are identical o mine for loft and play length.  Except his clubs have one number less on every club. So my 6 iron specs are identical to his 7 iron specs.

 

But who really cares except the guys complaining about too many wedge shots on tour?  The same guys that complain about distance complain about loft jacking.  As if renumbering clubs would make some happy.

[Titleist99]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Depends on the brand.  Most players clubs these days start with 46* PW.  That is one club stronger than the old specs of 50*.  Many game improvement clubs are one club stronger than that.  Buddy got the PXG 0211.  Looked up the specs and club for club they are identical o mine for loft and play length.  Except his clubs have one number less on every club. So my 6 iron specs are identical to his 7 iron specs.

 

But who really cares except the guys complaining about too many wedge shots on tour?  The same guys that complain about distance complain about loft jacking.  As if renumbering clubs would make some happy.

Truth right here.......gospel.

[woodriff]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

It's the wrong golf course to use for any debate except for who wins there.  It is the most manipulated golf course in the history of golf.  It literally is golf's Shangri-la.

When you say manipulated how do you mean. As in slight changes from year to year? 

[Titleist99]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Augusta National has been tinkered with continuously since it was built.  Makes one wonder what technology made hem add 250 yards from 1937 to 1952.  Or why it was reduced 135 yards from 1981 to 1982.

Wow! If these numbers are true, then excitement is the only reason then and certainly the only reason now.....not necessity.

[Danielson]

It feels like the tour has a million dials to turn to make golf more interesting, and won't turn any of them because the pros will complain about it. And I don't blame them, it's how they make a living and a rule change has the potential to really change the earning potential for a ton of players. From a viewers standpoint where I don't actually care whether a guy makes 1M or 20M, I wish they'd either give courses more bite or roll back the ball. These players are too good to play with gear that's this good on courses that aren't setup specifically to be tough. I think you'd still have the spectacle of guys mashing the ball farther than you could dream of, but the approach shots would require more imagination.

 

For the people who don't want any changes, where do you see pro golf going in the future? Courses just keep getting longer and longer until they run out of land or have to build new 8000+ yard tour stops? I don't think it's imminent but eventually they're going to have to do something otherwise the TV product is going to get more and more boring.

[Shilgy]

41 minutes ago, woodriff said:

When you say manipulated how do you mean. As in slight changes from year to year? 

https://www.liveabout.com/what-are-the-yardages-at-augusta-national-during-the-masters-1564592