Pete Cowen : "Worlds BEST golf coach TRANSFORMS my game in 25 MINUTES!!"

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, jholz said:

My issue is with the way all of this is presented and the style of pedagogy that Cowan is using. It's tried and true Socratic method, but the bad kind. Classic "sage on the stage" stuff. He wants it to sound mysterious and complicated. We might as well get into a discussion of Hogan's secret.

This is a pet peeve of mine as well. Broadly speaking I think of it in terms of guys that have spent so long within whatever their teaching style is that they seem to be completely disconnected from that state of mind any given student might be in. If someone is just saying "yeah" or "ok" after you've dropped paragraph after paragraph of swing theory on them, stop. They probably aren't absorbing anything and are just agreeing with your rehearsed performance because it's awkward if you don't. Like watching Gankas grab someone's hips and torque them in a direction and going "feel that?". Yeah, I feel you turning my hips, wtf am I supposed to do with this information lol. 

Far be it for me to criticize well established instruction because obviously i'm nobody, but god if this doesn't just feel like "i'm going to throw a bunch of my thoughts at you and if you don't get it then you're just not loading your shoulders for the shot you want or not using natural forces". And sure, this is a 20 minute session so maybe we're just treating like a puff piece, but ffs....he spent several those minutes doing math around the 10,000 hours concept while Jamie just sits there listening and likely planning the rest of his day in his head. 😆

[mudge]

17 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

This is a pet peeve of mine as well. Broadly speaking I think of it in terms of guys that have spent so long within whatever their teaching style is that they seem to be completely disconnected from that state of mind any given student might be in. If someone is just saying "yeah" or "ok" after you've dropped paragraph after paragraph of swing theory on them, stop. They probably aren't absorbing anything and are just agreeing with your rehearsed performance because it's awkward if you don't. Like watching Gankas grab someone's hips and torque them in a direction and going "feel that?". Yeah, I feel you turning my hips, wtf am I supposed to do with this information lol. 

Far be it for me to criticize well established instruction because obviously i'm nobody, but god if this doesn't just feel like "i'm going to throw a bunch of my thoughts at you and if you don't get it then you're just not loading your shoulders for the shot you want or not using natural forces". And sure, this is a 20 minute session so maybe we're just treating like a puff piece, but ffs....he spent several those minutes doing math around the 10,000 hours concept while Jamie just sits there listening and likely planning the rest of his day in his head. 😆

Yeah based on that video I’d have no idea he’s considered “one of the world’s best instructors.” I got absolutely nothing from watching it.

[Valtiel]

30 minutes ago, mudge said:

Yeah based on that video I’d have no idea he’s considered “one of the world’s best instructors.” I got absolutely nothing from watching it.

It's not hard to imagine that these old guard coaches have only worked with the best of the best for so long that they can't really relate to the more pedestrian golfers anymore. Surely Cowen isn't out there keeping his teaching chops sharp with weekend golfers, he doesn't need to and would likely have zero interest in that anyway. 

Pete said plenty of useful things in the video of course, obviously he immediately identified that Jamie's main issue is an overly flat takeaway that gets around behind him which leads to a pretty stuck downswing which combined with trying to clear aggressively and jumping gets him pretty flippy and hand timing based. Pete's points about natural forces and getting the club into a good position makes sense of course and definitely for what Jamie struggles with, but it was explained in such an out of order way that it was pretty clear Jamie wasn't getting much of it. The fact that his backswing is too flat and stuck behind him was only mentioned briefly much later and IMO that should have been led with and harped on straight away. Get him understanding what he's doing wrong first and THEN start talking about downswing position and grip stuff etc etc. 

[mudge]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

It's not hard to imagine that these old guard coaches have only worked with the best of the best for so long that they can't really relate to the more pedestrian golfers anymore. Surely Cowen isn't out there keeping his teaching chops sharp with weekend golfers, he doesn't need to and would likely have zero interest in that anyway. 

Pete said plenty of useful things in the video of course, obviously he immediately identified that Jamie's main issue is an overly flat takeaway that gets around behind him which leads to a pretty stuck downswing which combined with trying to clear aggressively and jumping gets him pretty flippy and hand timing based. Pete's points about natural forces and getting the club into a good position makes sense of course and definitely for what Jamie struggles with, but it was explained in such an out of order way that it was pretty clear Jamie wasn't getting much of it. The fact that his backswing is too flat and stuck behind him was only mentioned briefly much later and IMO that should have been led with and harped on straight away. Get him understanding what he's doing wrong first and THEN start talking about downswing position and grip stuff etc etc. 

 

The student's issues were clear for anyone to see. The issue for me was all of Pete's talk came across as hokum, instead of being simple and to the point.

[Hilts1969]

 

Lets hope Pete is reading this thread so he can learn how to do it properly:-)

[sg91]

I’ve always liked the way Cowen talks about the swing and have had success with his drills before; the axe drill is a staple for getting me back into a solid wind up. Took the feel of loading up the left shoulder for a fade and hit it great. Much lower, more driven fade that curved much less than normal.

 

I can see why his players tend to have the reputation being “flushers” and why Rory went to him with his struggles last year.

 

I don’t know whether people realise but this wasn’t so much a lesson as much as it was a sponsor engagement with a YouTuber. There’s clearly been a bunch of stuff edited out and if it was actually a lesson, it would have been at Rotherham rather than at one of Callaway’s UK facilities.

Edited March 26, 2022 by sg91

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, sg91 said:

I don’t know whether people realise but this wasn’t so much a lesson as much as it was a sponsor engagement with a YouTuber. 

 

1 hour ago, badhabit said:

 

That was my sense of it too. 

That would make more sense as i'd hope a normal lesson/coaching session wasn't approached like this.

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

18 hours ago, badboggs said:

I've never understood the fascination teachers seem to have with gravity acting on the club.  From a force point of view gravity most certainly has very little impact on a golf swing.  Granted I'm only about 10% through the video but I've always wondered about that.  I've heard Malaska say the same kind of thing.  I'm no biometrics expert but I'd guess gravity is almost a negligible contribution to a golf swing dynamics.  Am I way off here?

I think gravity has some impact on the swing.  How many people get to the top and throw the club out and over and hit the big slice or massive pull?  A lot.  If you allow gravity to let your hand drop, then get the club moving out and around you (now using force to fight gravity) you have both used gravity and fought gravity.  

 

Of course I have never consciously thought about gravity over the ball.  Just a thought of what is happening based of your comment.

 

[vman]

7 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Lets hope Pete is reading this thread so he can learn how to do it properly:-)

Now that did make me laugh. Pete did a great description of a round of golf, "10 seconds of good and 50 seconds s***!"

I'll be honest, I have no clue whatsoever how to load my shoulders.......but I wouldn't admit that to Pete.😆

[GungHoGolf]

On 3/25/2022 at 10:12 AM, KD1 said:

I logged on specifically to see if anyone was talking about this video yet, lol.

 

I couldn't quite follow some of what he was talking about.

 

1) The opposing forces in the grip. To be clear, he suggests you should apply force in your grip such that the inside of your wrists would rotate closer together?? How much force/tensions are we talking about here? Adding any tension at the wrists is the opposite of what I've always heard but of course I'm open to what ever he's preaching...

 

2) When he keeps talking about your should and shoulder muscles he's referring to the triceps, right?

 

I had 'aha moment' #7,105 at the range a couple days ago that specifically involved my lead triceps and then I saw this video. I figure I need to ask questions before I get too excited because I'm a real sucker for confirmation bias.

1) Your guess is as good as mine. 

 

2) The main adductor and extensor muscles of the shoulder (what moves the lead upper arm down and forward in the downswing) are the pecs and lats. The triceps main function is extension of the elbow (although it does play a minor role in both adduction and extension of the shoulder). 

[ezpz]

People like Cowen make me wish I studied lit crit instead of STEM, just so I could understand wtf they were talking about.

[TexasTurf]

Mind blown. He talks about what the muscles are doing instead of what the bones and joints are doing. 

 

Thank you so much for sharing.

[bogeypro]

On 3/25/2022 at 7:47 AM, i*windows said:

Absolutely brilliant video with maybe the best coach alive, Pete Cowen. (It's not me in the video, just the title 😉 )

 

 

I thought it was all very vague.  

[Qegurezi]

Sooooooo much knowledge but such a complex delivery. 

[naval2006]

I love it when expert WRXs question reputable teachers like Cowen, Ballard, Leadbetter, Harmon, et. al.   Timeless classic. 

[otto6457]

I would love to see Cowen give a real lesson to a good player where he's not playing an Obi Wan Kenobi part for a YouTuber video.  I would imagine there's a WHOLE lot less pontificating and more hands on instruction.  I love to watch really good coaches work.  It's great to watch where they focus and the corrections they make. 

[JungleJimbo]

9 minutes ago, otto6457 said:

I would love to see Cowen give a real lesson to a good player where he's not playing an Obi Wan Kenobi part for a YouTuber video.  I would imagine there's a WHOLE lot less pontificating and more hands on instruction.  I love to watch really good coaches work.  It's great to watch where they focus and the corrections they make. 

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

I tried the twisting towel feel on my swing and it did help bring it on plane during the backswing however, it tends to leave the cup in the lead wrist on the downswing so I was hitting them right, I'm a bit more bowed lead wrist normally on the downswing which is why I can have tendency to bring the club inside sometimes on backswing.

[moehogan]

39 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

I tried the twisting towel feel on my swing and it did help bring it on plane during the backswing however, it tends to leave the cup in the lead wrist on the downswing so I was hitting them right, I'm a bit more bowed lead wrist normally on the downswing which is why I can have tendency to bring the club inside sometimes on backswing.

Try reversing the windings in transition and through the DS. This will bow the lead wrist and bring the elbows together.

 

BS: hands wound together on top of grip

DS: hands wound together under grip

 

In the DS, you should really be able to feel pressure at the TGM Pressure Point #1 (trail hand heel pad against the base of the lead thumb). Increase the pressure of the trail hand middle finger for a draw - increase the pressure of the trail hand ring finger for a fade.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by moehogan

[Mob]

I don't think this is an effective teaching video.  His explanation isn't very clear.  Basically, he is talking about over rotation of forearms through the downswing because the hands aren't opposing each other, but he never even says that.  Mike Malaska does a much better job of talking about over rotation of the forearms and how to address it.

[Valtiel]

On 3/27/2022 at 8:54 AM, naval2006 said:

I love it when expert WRXs question reputable teachers like Cowen, Ballard, Leadbetter, Harmon, et. al.   Timeless classic. 

Reputable teachers are not above reproach, and whatever the intent of this video was, Jamie appears *to me* to get very little from it and seems largely confused. How many students can a reputable teacher leave confused before their methods can be questioned? I don't like the idea that these people can't be commented on because they have a name and reputation. Because at the end of day two things can be true; that someone can be very capable and useful to an already accomplished professional player while being not much good to a less skilled one. They can also have encyclopedic knowledge of the game and the swing while having esoteric and hard to penetrate ways of explaining it.  

Edited March 29, 2022 by Valtiel

[MPStrat]

Some people get understandably confused when a teacher doesn’t speak their golf swing language and dismiss the information. In this era of social media, groupthink has become increasingly prevalent. As it relates to the golf swing, this is a blessing and a curse. I believe it can make incompetent teachers better but can discourage independent thought. Teachers like Pete Cowen who have their own unique presentation are refreshing to me. 

[EagleAteBirdie]

Cowen doesn't need the publicity and this video is for the benefit of Robinson who needs clicks and views to afford the fuel for his recently purchased Aston Martin.  He was very fortunate to even get any time with Cowen because he picks who he teaches with players queuing for his services.

 

As for the content this was not an orthodox lesson and I wasn't expecting it to be in such a short space of time.  Cowen was trying to offer as much information as possible for the benefit of the viewers rather than focus on 1 or 2 items that he and his team would work on and drill with the student.  Also, Robinson gives swing tips as well as review content so it put him in a very uncomfortable position when an elite golf coach informs him that he has no real face control and relies solely on hand/eye coordination.  

 

I though what Cowen had to say was pure gold and if put in the same position I would bombard him with questions to further expand on those points and other thoughts on the swing.  He simply tells it how it is won't shy away from any questions regarding the golf swing.  His thoughts on gravity and momentum are spot on and transformed my chipping and pitching once I better understood it.  If you hit behind the ball on these type of shots even though your weight is left and sternum is over the ball then that piece of information may apply to you.

[ezpz]

6 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Some people get understandably confused when a teacher doesn’t speak their golf swing language and dismiss the information. In this era of social media, groupthink has become increasingly prevalent. As it relates to the golf swing, this is a blessing and a curse. I believe it can make incompetent teachers better but can discourage independent thought. Teachers like Pete Cowen who have their own unique presentation are refreshing to me. 

I think its more a case where is lingo is so self-referential that it makes it very hard to access for an outsider. His stuff about "pressure on the ball", what does that even mean? But I'm sure Thomas Pieters and the host of other pros understand what he's talking about or they wouldnt seek out his services. The same goes for the Robinson video, although I'm not quite sure James is getting what Pete is saying either.

[Hawkeye77]

I've got his older instructional dads, haven't looked at them in a long time.  You can find other stuff out there from some clinics - he's consistent with his ideas and a ground forces guy and yes, likes to go on a bit but clearly a world class teacher with results and a bit of a maverick in some ways which I enjoy - it's his way or literally the highway in many ways.  He did pull back a few years ago from travel and was handing off some guys to guys that work for him then seemed to be showing up again, etc.  

 

He's easy to listen to on his instructional dvd and the full swing stuff is what you see a glimpse of with Robinson but more in depth yet not real technical.  He has an interesting point of view.

 

I did find his video that included bunker play impossible to watch - to many lines drawn in the sand, too verbose, and just not the technique that spoke to me at all - Monte makes it so much easier, and it should be.

 

It's out there, subject to comment and criticism, but it's just a glimpse into a "lesson", a sponsor opportunity for Robinson and even though he's with Callaway, there may be a limit to what Pete has to do and maybe he won't go a minute over, lol.  

 

Not every instructor speaks to everyone, so if he doesn't trip your trigger, he's not for you (look at the people swooning over Dr. Kwon as if he's he greatest discovery in the modern teaching age - smoke and mirrors compared to Cowen, lol, or anyone else who can look at a golf swing and tell a student what the root issue is vs. lots of nonsense).

 

Robinson was a little intimidated and I could see myself having the exact same lesson and being put on the spot and . . . just tell me Pete I don't know the answer you want!  

 

There's a lot in this video IMO, even if tidbits, that would help a lot of folks if they watch and process a variety of things he is talking about and doing with Robinson, but again, if you listen to someone on golf instruction and it's not reaching you, turn it off and move on - Cowen wouldn't care, that's for sure!

[ezpz]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

 

Not every instructor speaks to everyone, so if he doesn't trip your trigger, he's not for you (look at the people swooning over Dr. Kwon as if he's he greatest discovery in the modern teaching age - smoke and mirrors compared to Cowen, lol, or anyone else who can look at a golf swing and tell a student what the root issue is vs. lots of nonsense).

 

 

This seems to be inherrent to the way many golfers look at improvement, always looking for the next big thing (S&T/GG/Kwon whatver) or some legendary old thing (god help the guys still looking for hogans secret). The groundforce stuff is an incredible way to unlock potential provided it is done under supervision by someone who knows what they're doing, but in the end it is just technique and not skill building. What I gather from his interviews is that Cowen is heavily into building skills as well as helping, mostly high level, golfers with their technique.

Edited March 29, 2022 by ezpz

[EagleAteBirdie]

1 hour ago, ezpz said:

I think its more a case where is lingo is so self-referential that it makes it very hard to access for an outsider. His stuff about "pressure on the ball", what does that even mean? But I'm sure Thomas Pieters and the host of other pros understand what he's talking about or they wouldnt seek out his services. The same goes for the Robinson video, although I'm not quite sure James is getting what Pete is saying either.

 

I agree, he doesn't fully understand the concepts and feels because it is vastly different to what he is currently doing and as a youtube golf pro he is probably too embarrassed to ask.  That and the limited time available.  It is not a 5 minute fix.

[hammersia]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:05 AM, JungleJimbo said:

 

 

I still don't get it. Cowan on this video said "more centred with the wedges" and "open quicker for more fade, ?pressure", and that's it really.

10G for that. 

 

I've watched a lot of coaches at The Open and it's similar, you're just paying someone to say"nice shot" and tell you how great you are. 

[MC21]

I watched this video the other day and tried the towel drill with some foam balls and then tried using that feeling at the driving range over the weekend. 

 

Contact was consistently in the center of the face, but the face was shut and everything was hooking dramatically. Once I realized that I didn't need to actively do anything with my hands or arms to square the face and only focused on rotating I started to hit the ball much better. I also had to weaken my right hand grip from slightly strong to neutral. From there it almost felt like I was trying to hit a cut, but the results were a 1-2 yard draw and a center strike. It was a drastically different feeling than what I was used to, but the results were very good and repeatable.

 

The opposing forces of the fingers makes me feel like my hands are clamped onto the grip and I have a great awareness of where the clubface is throughout the swing. It took a while to do this without having a lot of tension in my forearms, but once I felt like I was only holding it with the 3 fingers of my left hand and 2 fingers of my right the tension reduced significantly. 

 

 

[mudge]

14 minutes ago, hammersia said:

I still don't get it. Cowan on this video said "more centred with the wedges" and "open quicker for more fade, ?pressure", and that's it really.

10G for that. 

 

I've watched a lot of coaches at The Open and it's similar, you're just paying someone to say"nice shot" and tell you how great you are. 

I saw that video too. Maybe there’s some sort of initiation where Pete goes into what fade/draw pressure means. Same for when he talks about fade/draw spirals in the shoulders, or spring loading the shoulders because the ball is on the ground.