Unpopular opinion: Pro caddies are extremely overrated

[Creedo77]

18 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Unfortunately the event production seems to cover much of the discussion between pro and caddie of leading players and so cover actual less shots. Makes the end product worse for viewers.

 

A more passive caddie role would force better coverage.

 

The player has to learn to handle the round stress, players of yore did. These days it's like they have an on-course coach and psychologist.

 

Its almost cheating.

So the caddies make golf viewing bad? I’ve heard it all now 

[Rapidcat]

2 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Yes, playing competitively for a long time. There’s a huge difference between a college event and a pga tour event. 
 

There’s a lot more on line when it comes to pro golf, mainly job security. 
 

Im biased in this subject as I’ve caddied for the last 4 years on the Korn Ferry Tour. I know the assumptions that everyone in this thread has. The majority don’t know what goes on in pro golf, at all.

 

The player I work for just got his tour card on Sunday. I know how much stress he’s been under for the last month. Id like to think I helped in the smallest of ways to alleviate some of that stress.

 

Figured you are a current caddie by your response to me.

 

Congrats to you and your player, great job under current regs.

 

My thoughts - a player can have whatever support team they want off the course - on the course its up to them to deal with the comp stress.

 

I flipped on this subject years back when Steve Williams was being put up as NZ sportsman of the year as Tiger's caddie.

 

Give the pro a yardage book (at best) and they make all the on-course decisions from there. I'm fine with someone carrying their clubs but that's it.

 

Sorry, I know you will hate this reply as it is likely your livelihood.

[vandyfan]

11 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Im biased in this subject as I’ve caddied for the last 4 years on the Korn Ferry Tour. I know the assumptions that everyone in this thread has. The majority don’t know what goes on in pro golf, at all.

 

I would say experienced which I am not. Didn't want to attack anyone's livelihood here and I appreciate you sharing your insight. 

 

Also, I hope you are not Tosti's caddy. That guy seems like a wildcard. 

[Creedo77]

9 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

I would say experienced which I am not. Didn't want to attack anyone's livelihood here and I appreciate you sharing your insight. 

 

Also, I hope you are not Tosti's caddy. That guy seems like a wildcard. 

Nah not his guy but he’s going to make some noise up on that tour in both good and bad ways. 

[Creedo77]

16 minutes ago, Rapidcat said:

 

Figured you are a current caddie by your response to me.

 

Congrats to you and your player, great job under current regs.

 

My thoughts - a player can have whatever support team they want off the course - on the course its up to them to deal with the comp stress.

 

I flipped on this subject years back when Steve Williams was being put up as NZ sportsman of the year as Tiger's caddie.

 

Give the pro a yardage book (at best) and they make all the on-course decisions from there. I'm fine with someone carrying their clubs but that's it.

 

Sorry, I know you will hate this reply as it is likely your livelihood.

Yeah, we as a caddie don’t need to be nominated for national awards. 
 

The tours don’t see us as big enough subjects to somehow restrict us to how or what we do on the course. 

Thst remains internet fantasy by everyday golfers 

 

[Rapidcat]

1 minute ago, Creedo77 said:

Yeah, we as a caddie don’t need to be nominated for national awards. 
 

The tours don’t see us as big enough subjects to somehow restrict us to how or what we do on the course. 

Thst remains internet fantasy by everyday golfers 

 

 

Well that may change after Joe LaCava's disgrace in the Ryder cup.

 

Caddie influence has gone too far.

[RobS]

On 10/4/2023 at 4:54 PM, vandyfan said:

I guess alongside this topic (sorry to revive this topic just didn't want to create a new one), what would happen if the PGA/LPGA Tour just got rid of caddies altogether? Would the product really suffer dramatically? As someone who has never played high level golf, I guess I don't really understand the necessity of one. I see how they help and I am not trying to say they are "extremely overrated" but really I just want to see the golfers hit shots. Give them a push cart or a golf cart maybe? Get a volunteer to rake the bunkers and replace divots and away we go. 

 

*ducking* *awaiting pearl clutching*

The necessity varies widely.  For some players, it's little more than a guy carrying the bag, keeping the clubs and the ball clean, raking traps and tending pins.  The opposite end of the spectrum is the player that relies on the caddie for yardages, a lot of green reading, club selection, shot selection, sports psychology etc.  Most players probably fall somewhere in between.  I'd like to see limits placed on the caddies.  I think navigating the course, calculating yardages, club selection and green reading are skills of the game and I'd prefer to see that all fall on the player.

[jimecherry]

1 minute ago, RobS said:

The necessity varies widely.  For some players, it's little more than a guy carrying the bag, keeping the clubs and the ball clean, raking traps and tending pins.  The opposite end of the spectrum is the player that relies on the caddie for yardages, a lot of green reading, club selection, shot selection, sports psychology etc.  Most players probably fall somewhere in between.  I'd like to see limits placed on the caddies.  I think navigating the course, calculating yardages, club selection and green reading are skills of the game and I'd prefer to see that all fall on the player.

they couldnt prevent coaching in tennis so they gave in and have started putting in systems for it. I doubt they could actually get away with limiting how helpful a caddy could be at best they'll end up putting in systems that support it.

[RobS]

3 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

they couldnt prevent coaching in tennis so they gave in and have started putting in systems for it. I doubt they could actually get away with limiting how helpful a caddy could be at best they'll end up putting in systems that support it.

Agreed.  It's never going to happen.  I just think it would be interesting to see how and who it would impact on the player side.

[vandyfan]

I guess I just fall into thinking about how this, randomly, as an alternate "bifurcation" of the game. Most amateur golfers don't have a caddy for their rounds so why do we have it at the professional level? If anything, those guys and girls should be more adept at getting by without a caddy than joe hacker who cannot read a green or judge slope. And yes, I realize Joe Hacker is playing for fun and pros are playing for their livelihood. That is not lost on me. 

 

Also, and not to offend our caddies on this thread, but I don't like the idea of a better golfer having worse finishes than a lesser golfer who has an AMAZING caddy that gets better reads, yardages, psychological coaching, etc. I just want to see great golfers more so than great "teams" I guess? 

[m d g]

On 10/4/2023 at 1:54 PM, vandyfan said:

I guess alongside this topic (sorry to revive this topic just didn't want to create a new one), what would happen if the PGA/LPGA Tour just got rid of caddies altogether? Would the product really suffer dramatically? As someone who has never played high level golf, I guess I don't really understand the necessity of one. I see how they help and I am not trying to say they are "extremely overrated" but really I just want to see the golfers hit shots. Give them a push cart or a golf cart maybe? Get a volunteer to rake the bunkers and replace divots and away we go. 

 

*ducking* *awaiting pearl clutching*

 

Endorsing push carts would be a whole new revenue stream : )

[m d g]

4 hours ago, Rapidcat said:

Give the pro a yardage book (at best) and they make all the on-course decisions from there. I'm fine with someone carrying their clubs but that's it.

 

 

Give the pros range finders...

[third-times-a-charm]

My job would be a lot easier if I had someone tell me how to do it all day long, too. I'd gladly pay them 7%! But wait, thats frowned upon.

 

Sorry to anyone whos a caddie - but any golf outside recreational/country club golf should not have caddies. Pretty sure I've replied in this thread before also LOL but not sorting through 10 pages.

[Santiago Golf]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:53 AM, Creedo77 said:

Nah not his guy but he’s going to make some noise up on that tour in both good and bad ways. 

 

that guy is a maniac 

[Santiago Golf]

19 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

My job would be a lot easier if I had someone tell me how to do it all day long, too. I'd gladly pay them 7%! But wait, thats frowned upon.

 

Sorry to anyone whos a caddie - but any golf outside recreational/country club golf should not have caddies. Pretty sure I've replied in this thread before also LOL but not sorting through 10 pages.

 

This is really dumb take 

 

Owners and CEOs have advisors who basically do a ton of work for them and then have options presented, they make the final decision 

 

PGA/LPGA Tour pro is no different

 

I have caddied since I was 12. I have caddied in a handful of pro events nothing anything big. 

 

Some players need their hand held and some players need a friend/bag carrying. Then there is everything in between. 

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, Santiago Golf said:

 

This is really dumb take 

 

Owners and CEOs have advisors who basically do a ton of work for them and then have options presented, they make the final decision 

 

PGA/LPGA Tour pro is no different

 

I have caddied since I was 12. I have caddied in a handful of pro events nothing anything big. 

 

Some players need their hand held and some players need a friend/bag carrying. Then there is everything in between. 

Fine, be that as it may my opinion is unchanged. Any professional athlete that needs their hand held or cant mentally handle the pressure of decision making in pro sports shouldnt win. 

 

I want to see a professional version of golf with no caddies with players at the highest level and see who comes out on top.

[NV825]

I would love to see a tournament where the pros get a push cart, range finder, approved greens book, and a volunteer that only helps clean up the divots and bunkers.

[Pepperturbo]

Like so many positions in life, some people see their jobs like a professional, others are not remotely professional.   The player plays the game and tells his caddie what he wants, period.  It's NOT a black or white job.

[Barfolomew]

"...but they really make a marginal difference imo."

 

Nope no way.  You're looking at it wrong.  They make a huge difference.  It's just those family caddies were the perfect caddy for that win on that day. 

 

You might be right in that you dont need a "Bones" or famous or technical guy but you it does help tremendously to have the right type of caddy only if they are just hanging out with you cracking jokes or keeping the stress away etc... Someones gotta carry the bag

[bobfoster]

42 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Fine, be that as it may my opinion is unchanged. Any professional athlete that needs their hand held or cant mentally handle the pressure of decision making in pro sports shouldnt win. 

 

I want to see a professional version of golf with no caddies with players at the highest level and see who comes out on top.

I have a different perspective.

 

There are  125 full Tour Cards - plus a few dozen more tour exemptions for various reasons (e.g., a PGAT win in the previous two years, top 50 in the all time money list, those finishing 126 - 150 get limited status to play in some events, & etc.). That's maybe 200 or less in all, at any particular time - out of over 25 million people in the US that play golf. These guys aren't just sort of good, this is the summit-of-Mt. Everest level of the sport. They barely even play the same game the rest of us do. 

 

But before any golfer even actually gets a PGAT Card, they've already spent virtually countless hours alone on the range, have played literally hundreds - often well over 1,000 - rounds without a caddy, carrying their own sticks, making their own choices. I have no need to see the pros "prove" themselves. IMO, they already have, in spades. You don't reach the point where you are teeing off at a PGAT event if can't "mentally handle the pressure", and haven't proved it - playing without a caddy - for years. 

 

Mostly caddies take care of a lot of grunt work. Some golfers barely use their caddies for much more than looping with the bag, cleaning balls, and raking traps. Others bounce ideas off of them, have discussions about distances and wind and conditions and strategy, or like it when caddies keep them calm, or focused. But any golfer with a PGAT Card that uses a caddy has already overwhelmingly proven that they don't "need" one. Your game - with or without caddy - has got to positively crazy good to be there. 

 

At that level, certainly every edge, no matter how small, might help. The margins are incredibly close. This is a tour where a double bogey in the final round can mean the difference between a trophy and T6 ... a single hole, even a single shot, can alter your paycheck by a couple hundred thousand dollars. And in any particular tournament, the assistance of a caddy might provide that narrowest of nudges that helps a guy over the top. But in the long run, over time, the records of the best golfers would likely be little different if the tour had no caddies.

 

Steve Williams is an amazing caddie, probably one of the best ever. And Tiger had a significant relationship with him. I suppose you could even say Stevie sometimes "held his hand". But at the end of the day, in (for instance) 2008, on the 72nd hole of the US Open and needing a birdie to force a playoff, it was Tiger - and Tiger alone - standing over a 12 foot putt on a fast green. And freaking draining it.

 

So I suppose it would be mildly interesting to see "a professional version of golf with no caddies with players at the highest level and see who comes out on top", but I have a feeling that version of golf would look nearly identical to the version we now watch. 

 

 

[tatertot]

4 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Fine, be that as it may my opinion is unchanged. Any professional athlete that needs their hand held or cant mentally handle the pressure of decision making in pro sports shouldnt win. 

 

I want to see a professional version of golf with no caddies with players at the highest level and see who comes out on top.

I agree ... 

 

Also ...

 

Any coach that needs an assistant coach ... FIRED

 

Any executive that needs an assistant ... FIRED

 

Any doctor that needs a nurse ... FIRED

 

Any pilot that needs a co-pilot ... FIRED

 

Anybody that needs help doing their job ... FIRED

 

 

[third-times-a-charm]

15 minutes ago, tatertot said:

I agree ... 

 

Also ...

 

Any coach that needs an assistant coach ... FIRED

 

Any executive that needs an assistant ... FIRED

 

Any doctor that needs a nurse ... FIRED

 

Any pilot that needs a co-pilot ... FIRED

 

Anybody that needs help doing their job ... FIRED

 

 

[bscinstnct]

Not in this case 🤣

 

 

[JungleJimbo]

16 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Not in this case 🤣

 

 

 

Enjoyed this. Thanks for sharing. 

Googled it, to find out that this exchange between Wu Ashun and his caddie = from the 2018 Nedbank Golf Challenge in South Africa.

 

https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/tour-news/funny-caddie-player-exchange-168646