Augusta National golf club - 2023

[PracticeSwinger]

[stinger_gc]

LIV needs to hire a new Marketing team lol

[smashdn]

On 11/29/2022 at 8:41 AM, MUNIGRIT said:

Explain why those who went for green on 15 on their 3rd shot had a lower scoring average of 5.0 vs 5.2 for those going for it in two last year? There is more variance with the risk reward of a 3. Now everyone just plays for par and hope to make a 15 footer for a 4. You can try and explain it anyway you want but 3 shot par 5 are boring holes.

 

On 12/12/2022 at 12:56 AM, mallrat said:

A 3 shot par 5 might be boring to you but how is the hole supposed to be played? What was the intent behind the architecture? 

 

 

 

Confucius say, par five golf hole that plays as two shot hole always, is actually par four.

[tgws]

and a "driveable" par 4 is just a difficult par 3

 

but thankfully we get one every tournament now because it's so exciting 

[PracticeSwinger]

In my humble opinion - the best holes design are those that bring score variance into play; from eagle to double... where your chance at eagle comes from a combo of: 1- having the guts to try that shot and 2- executing it... it has to be 1 'and' 2... and if you bailout on #1 than you might give 1.5 strokes to those that achieve it... while if you miss #2 than you can lose up to 2 strokes on those that didn't go for it

 

A standard 'driveable par 4' or a 2shots Par5 is just an easy fluff, confidence hole where you don't gain or lose much... but for example, 15th at Augusta where you had a 2nd shot coming in with a long iron, downhill lie to a firm and tournament speed green - water in front and no bailout behind... magic!

[smashdn]

28 minutes ago, tgws said:

and a "driveable" par 4 is just a difficult par 3

 

but thankfully we get one every tournament now because it's so exciting 

 

I think the problem there is that the old "drive and pitch" par four (the 320-360 yard hole) has become the "driveable par four" when from a design standpoint they are different animals.

 

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/the-challenge-of-short-par-fours

https://thefriedegg.com/why-no-10-at-riviera-is-so-fun-to-watch/

 

Your scorecard distance is going to suffer if you have two short par fours on there.  Next thing you know your course is under 7200 yards and people are writing it off before they ever see it.

[jimecherry]

21 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

In my humble opinion - the best holes design are those that bring score variance into play; from eagle to double... where your chance at eagle comes from a combo of: 1- having the guts to try that shot and 2- executing it... it has to be 1 'and' 2... and if you bailout on #1 than you might give 1.5 strokes to those that achieve it... while if you miss #2 than you can lose up to 2 strokes on those that didn't go for it

 

A standard 'driveable par 4' or a 2shots Par5 is just an easy fluff, confidence hole where you don't gain or lose much... but for example, 15th at Augusta where you had a 2nd shot coming in with a long iron, downhill lie to a firm and tournament speed green - water in front and no bailout behind... magic!

Driveable par 4s with hazards near the green have the variance your referring to. Also I don't think there is a standard layout for driveable par4s

[PracticeSwinger]

2 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

Driveable par 4s with hazards near the green have the variance your referring to. Also I don't think there is a standard layout for driveable par4s

Agree - and the 3rd at Augusta is an interesting example... 340ish... but if you go for it and end up on the low left side in front of the green, it all depends on the pin placement - that green is just devilish...

[Golferpaul]

2 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

In my humble opinion - the best holes design are those that bring score variance into play; from eagle to double...

That's why I liked the old #13.  Scores ranged from a 3 to a 7.  That's excitement.  With the added length, I think we will see fewer 3s and fewer 7s.

[So_Cal]

39 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

That's why I liked the old #13.  Scores ranged from a 3 to a 7.  That's excitement.  With the added length, I think we will see fewer 3s and fewer 7s.

Added length will bring back the variance.  Fewer easy second shots. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

They probably should have left the old tees for weird weather conditions. If they get better weather than last year I think 15 will be good, have to see how 13 plays out come tournament time. I think the element of having to turn it will be missed.

[PracticeSwinger]

9 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

They probably should have left the old tees for weird weather conditions. If they get better weather than last year I think 15 will be good, have to see how 13 plays out come tournament time. I think the element of having to turn it will be missed.

Agree - on 13 to draw it with todays driver at the risk overdoing it and flirting with the creek or not turning it over and finding the pine straw will definitely be missed - can’t imagine Morikawa being all that mad about that… from Golf Digest and others - Reed, playing with DJ said it becomes a 3 shots hole (long iron / hybrid on a sideways lie to a tourney fast and firm green) - Bubba had 227 and 231 after good drives to go at it… we’ll see

[Golferpaul]

12 hours ago, So_Cal said:

Added length will bring back the variance.  Fewer easy second shots. 

The variance never left.  We had the variance last year.  Now there will be fewer guys going for the green in two, so the possibility of a seven is mostly gone.

[So_Cal]

1 hour ago, Golferpaul said:

The variance never left.  We had the variance last year.  Now there will be fewer guys going for the green in two, so the possibility of a seven is mostly gone.

Disagree.  When they go for it it will actually be a challenge brining in more variance.  Hole had become boring and too easy with modern equipment for pros. 

[jdl]

Nice view. 😬

 

 

[tiderider]

 

 

On 3/31/2023 at 6:42 AM, Golferpaul said:

The variance never left.  We had the variance last year.  Now there will be fewer guys going for the green in two, so the possibility of a seven is mostly gone.

my guess is that there were few 7s there now ... a dumped 2nd shot left a pitch/putt for par, giving bogey at worst ... 

 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=msYoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qW4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5988%2C3706432

 

Strange had two big decisions, and went for it ... if he's hitting a 8-6 iron into it, it's not a decision ... 4 wood/4 iron, it's a decision ... bogeyed both times, while langer birdied both times ... 

[Chrysalis99]

I have a feeling 13 is going to be boring with very few players going for it in 2. Granted driver, 8 Iron was not great but with what we’ve heard going for it will be rare and takes away players charging from further down the leaderboard on the back 9. Hope I’m wrong.  

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, Chrysalis99 said:

I have a feeling 13 is going to be boring with very few players going for it in 2. Granted driver, 8 Iron was not great but with what we’ve heard going for it will be rare and takes away players charging from further down the leaderboard on the back 9. Hope I’m wrong.  

Let’s hope it won’t get that boring… from what I read Bubba played it twice said he had two good drives last week - and had 227 + 231 going in… will probably depends on the green firmness (+ tourney speed), weather conditions, lie and where you’re at on the leaderboard… 

[Hankshank]

Saw the girls play yesterday, holes 17 and 18 reminded me over again on Southern Scandinavian HC Andersen’s famous fairy tale “The emperor’s new clothes “

 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Hankshank

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

15 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

Saw the girls play yesterday, holes 17 and 18 reminded me over again on Southern Scandinavian HC Andersen’s famous fairy tale “The emperor’s new clothes “

 

 

 

The ladies were also wearing the Emperor's new clothes???😳

 

[RobotDoctor]

I agree that a tee complex about 20-25 yards should be created as an option.  Let's see how the new tee complex shapes this Masters.  I'll have a look at this on Tuesday, albeit from the landing area looking back.  👍

[mbb86]

I'm sorry, if you do not think the *option* of having the 545 tee on #13 is a good thing then you either (i) don't understand the design of the hole in the first place, (ii) do not understand high level golf in 2023 well enough to have an intelligent opinion on the design of the hole, or (iii) both. 

 

The point of the hole is not that it's a glorified par 4 on Sunday with leaders hitting 3 wood + 7-9 iron. The point of the hole is that you have an awkward f****** draw lie with a longish iron/hybrid/fairway wood that you need to hit perfectly in order to fly the creek onto a left-to-right sloping green if you want to make birdie/eagle and that you have essentially no bail out except the left side of the green. The landing zone margins are infinitely larger with 7-9 iron (which curve a hell of a lot less off that lie and can be stopped on a dime) versus 5 iron or longer. It's the literal point of the hole. 

 

The hole is at it's best when players make a critical make or break decision in the middle of the back 9 on Sunday, a la Phil in 2010 from the pine straw. That moment was all of the various factors-- Phil being Phil, Sunday at the Masters, and amazing golf course design coming together for 15 seconds of awesomeness. That ball is 5 feet from being an instant bogey. If you neuter the hole by everyone hitting 7-9 irons from the middle of the fairway then it's completely ruined its purpose. I have no issue with a bomber trying to roast one 375 off the tee and risk duck hooking it into the creek, i.e. taking the huge risk off the tee in exchange for potentially easier second shot. That's still within the spirit of the hole. But there's a huge difference between the longest player into the field being able to play the hole that way vs the entire field being able to play the hole that way with no risk and hitting stock 3 wood + stock 7-9i all day. One of those is not like the other.

 

If it's wet and into the wind, then yes the hole is probably sort of boring all the way at the back tee. If it's wet and into the wind then they have the option of moving the tee up. But if conditions are good then the back tee is simply a necessity to restore intent of the hole. 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by mbb86

[mbb86]

19 hours ago, Chrysalis99 said:

I have a feeling 13 is going to be boring with very few players going for it in 2. Granted driver, 8 Iron was not great but with what we’ve heard going for it will be rare and takes away players charging from further down the leaderboard on the back 9. Hope I’m wrong.  

 

I'm highly skeptical that a majority of contenders will be laying up in good conditions. But even if that does end up being the case, it basically defers the risk taking to #15 and so basically doubles the drama potential on #15 instead. 

[Hankshank]

5 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

The ladies were also wearing the Emperor's new clothes???😳

 

I’m pretty sure the dress code for playing Augusta N is rather specific on the question of nakedness. 
 

But there aint much festivity for the eyes seeing the approach views on 17 and 18.  
The area 1, 9 , 17 and 18 could be SO much better. I’ve said it before and I will say it again until the Emperor(Bill, Warren, Condolezza whoever) starts listening. 
 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Hankshank

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, mbb86 said:

 

I'm highly skeptical that a majority of contenders will be laying up in good conditions. But even if that does end up being the case, it basically defers the risk taking to #15 and so basically doubles the drama potential on #15 instead. 

I’m leaning that way… as I’ve wrote in the thread earlier - with good drives; guys will have +/-230yds going in - which isn’t that big of a stretch for them, but definitely more interesting than a 8i approach… side hill lie, fast and firm green, not much bailout, leaderboard close by, patrons and the world looking on to see if you lock in your first Major win… looking forward to it

[Shilgy]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:45 PM, black bnr32 said:

I thought it was Tiger that started flying the trees

 

On 12/14/2022 at 4:45 PM, black bnr32 said:

I thought it was Tiger that started flying the trees

No…it was Sam Snead.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/14/sports/sports-of-the-times-the-death-of-golf-s-greatest-tree.html

[Titleist99]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:18 PM, smashdn said:

 

I think the problem there is that the old "drive and pitch" par four (the 320-360 yard hole) has become the "driveable par four" when from a design standpoint they are different animals.

 

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/the-challenge-of-short-par-fours

https://thefriedegg.com/why-no-10-at-riviera-is-so-fun-to-watch/

 

Your scorecard distance is going to suffer if you have two short par fours on there.  Next thing you know your course is under 7200 yards and people are writing it off before they ever see it.

'"Your scorecard distance is going to suffer if you have two short par fours on there.  Next thing you know your course is under 7200 yards and people are writing it off before they ever see it."

 

You learn something new everyday.  LOL! First time ever hearing this in my entire golf life.🤣 And this why you have to buy more land,,,,😄

[Hawkeye77]

7 hours ago, Hankshank said:

Saw the girls play yesterday, holes 17 and 18 reminded me over again on Southern Scandinavian HC Andersen’s famous fairy tale “The emperor’s new clothes “

 

 

 

I saw the women play and the design of 18 and the shots hit in the final round and in the playoff were pretty interesting and highlighted what the design asks of you.  Not "big timing", lol, but you really need to see them in person to appreciate the value of the holes.  17 has been more pivotal in the tournament over the years than you give it credit for.  Good bits as always in this year's "Masters Journal" about each hole - always a good read and tells a lot more about the holes then most of us, me included, really "get".

[Hankshank]

4 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

I saw the women play and the design of 18 and the shots hit in the final round and in the playoff were pretty interesting and highlighted what the design asks of you.  Not "big timing", lol, but you really need to see them in person to appreciate the value of the holes.  17 has been more pivotal in the tournament over the years than you give it credit for.  Good bits as always in this year's "Masters Journal" about each hole - always a good read and tells a lot more about the holes then most of us, me included, really "get".

Having missed few masters sundays this millenia, as well as some odd ones in the old one too what I say is not based on few samples so to speak. And few of the iconic masters shots have been made on those two holes, save some putts. I have seen few ratings where people rate those two holes high. And really, they aint much to see on TV, save the tee shot on 18. Should the view for the approach shot on the last hole on the most prominent of the tournaments played annually in the same course be … a slope? I have seen old pics from when the current 9 was the  last, a far more picturesque view.
 

Great galleries of course, as on all major tournaments, but nothing more. The real party ends on the 16th green, the scene for so many celebrations and great shots.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Hankshank

[Hawkeye77]

30 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

Having missed few masters sundays this millenia, as well as some odd ones in the old one too what I say is not based on few samples so to speak. And few of the iconic masters shots have been made on those two holes, save some putts. I have seen few ratings where people rate those two holes high. And really, they aint much to see on TV, save the tee shot on 18. Should the view for the approach shot on the last hole on the most prominent of the tournaments played annually in the same course be … a slope? I have seen old pics from when the current 9 was the  last, a far more picturesque view.
 

Great galleries of course, as on all major tournaments, but nothing more. The real party ends on the 16th green, the scene for so many celebrations and great shots.

 

 

 

All a matter of taste for sure.  But yes, the course requires you to get back up the hill.  Not sure why the players' view from the fairway has to be some particular view - play the hole you are dealt, but yes, the 18 plays uphill and from a spectators' point of view is quite the theater - and plenty of pressure on players to select the right club to get to the proper part of the green, a pretty famous player (the other GOAT) hasn't found finishing all that easy in a couple of his great wins, and it shouldn't be, again IMO.  

 

Definitely a course that doesn't come anywhere near presenting itself as it really is in 2D on the small screen.

 

They are difficult holes with demanding tee shots and second shots to play to the proper position.  17 green is pretty cool and the 18th is unique.  Celebrate all you want on the par 3 16th, but the Masters requires a tough finishing test for any champion.  Plenty of iconic shots and putts on all the holes, but drama aplenty on the last two and 17 has figured in a lot of wins and "couldn't quite finish" over the years.  Nicklaus's putt on 17 in '86 was a nail biting tough putt and a must make and every bit as big in Masters lore as his putt on 16 in '75.  

Edited April 2, 2023 by Hawkeye77