Complaints about slow play...

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, charli said:

Just because you think your on pace doesn’t mean you shouldn’t let someone through. ThAts not how it works 

 

Exactly. And that is the very reason not to publish any guidelines for the time of a round.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

Play this course in 4 hours.

 

The clock starts when the first player in your group hits their tee shot on hole #1. 

 

Your checkpoints:

 

    Hole  #4 completed at actual start time plus 0:50
    Hole  #9 completed at actual start time plus 1:55
    Hole #13 completed at actual start time plus 2:50
    Hole #18 completed at actual start time plus 4:00

 

1) When playing stroke play, play “ready golf.”
2) Hit your shot in 40 seconds or less.
3) Keep up with the group ahead.
 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sui generis said:

Play this course in 4 hours.

 

The clock starts when the first player in your group hits their tee shot on hole #1. 

 

Your checkpoints:

 

    Hole  #4 completed at actual start time plus 0:50
    Hole  #9 completed at actual start time plus 1:55
    Hole #13 completed at actual start time plus 2:50
    Hole #18 completed at actual start time plus 4:00

 

1) When playing stroke play, play “ready golf.”
2) Hit your shot in 40 seconds or less.
3) Keep up with the group ahead.
 

 

Which course would that be?

 

What if the group ahead is playing 4:15, what then?

 

What was your point?

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

41 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

Which course would that be?

 

What if the group ahead is playing 4:15, what then?

 

What was your point?

 

My home course, where 4 hours is reasonable.

They are unlikely to be. And, if they weren't keeping up, they'd make an effort to.

To show that creating an expectation of pace of play is a useful managerial tool.

 

I know, I know, that's not how YOU do it over there. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

My home course, where 4 hours is reasonable.

They are unlikely to be. And, if they weren't keeping up, they'd make an effort to.

To show that creating an expectation of pace of play is a useful managerial tool.

 

I know, I know, that's not how YOU do it over there. 😉

 

On my, your home course is the dream of golf in the universe. So far I have never seen a golf course where every group plays with the same pace and that pace is 4 hours or less.

 

Is that valid for the Book of Guinness records?

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

To show that creating an expectation of pace of play is a useful managerial tool.

 

 

... I think most of us have played behind groups, especially with multiple tee times that think 5 hours or more, playing a social round of golf where 10 minute stops every time the cart girl passes and thinks 5+ hours is perfectly OK. Having an expectation for pace is an absolute necessity for those kind of players.

... One of my ex playing pards back in Chicago played in a weekly Saturday group and rotating each week on 4 different courses and they had the first tee times. Their expected tee time was 3:20 minutes because the course wanted to set a pace for others to follow full well knowing rounds would take progressively longer throughout the day. If they could not set a 3:20 pace they would lose the opening round to another group. 

[sui generis]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

On my, your home course is the dream of golf in the universe.

 

Just shows what can be done if the course sets their mind to it.

[Mr. Bean]

48 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Just shows what can be done if the course sets their mind to it.

 

Not to mention if that was true.

[Double Mocha Man]

9 hours ago, sui generis said:

2) Hit your shot in 40 seconds or less.

 

40 seconds is way too long.  Does everyone think they're Jordan Spieth?

[sui generis]

21 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

40 seconds is way too long. 

 

Rule 5 - Playing the Round - Purpose of Rule: Rule 5 covers how to play a round – such as where and when a player may practise on the course before or during a round, when a round starts and ends and what happens when play has to stop or resume. Players are expected to:

 

Start each round on time, and play continuously and at a prompt pace during each hole until the round is completed. When it is a player’s turn to play, it is recommended that he or she make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds, and usually more quickly than that.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=5

[Double Mocha Man]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

When it is a player’s turn to play, it is recommended that he or she make the stroke in no more than 40 seconds, and usually more quickly than that.

 

I am in the "More quickly than that" camp.

[sui generis]

4 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

I am in the "More quickly than that" camp.

 

That's where everyone "thinks" they are. 

 

Next time you're playing use your stopwatch and time the other players. You may find a low end of around 30 seconds extending up to a minute or more for full shots even without extenuating circumstances. 

[Double Mocha Man]

I'm the 8 to 10 second guy. Playing partners comment on it all the time. I take a quick half swing to make sure the joints are still functional, then I hit the shot.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Slow play is a very touchy subject nowadays. My group will only play if we can get first tee time out on the weekend. And when we do. We will finish well under 4hrs as a 4 some. Almost every time we are first out. We usually finish in 3 1/2 hours. We still get complaints that we are playing slow. But no matter what. We still allow the group to pass us. It’s just common golf courtesy. Just cause the card states to keep a pace of 4 1/2 hours. Doesn’t mean you have to. If the opportunity is open to play faster. Take it, and keep up with the group in front. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

I'm the 8 to 10 second guy. Playing partners comment on it all the time. I take a quick half swing to make sure the joints are still functional, then I hit the shot.

 

Cut your mocha intake in half.

 

But 8-10 seconds ? I'd love to see that. Never have before.

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Cut your mocha intake in half.

 

But 8-10 seconds ? I'd love to see that. Never have before.

I've timed play in our group(s) for tee shots, not the time the player takes but the time between the sound of the club hitting the ball.  Typically it is around 30 seconds between contact from one player to the next.  We had one new player join the group(s), and when he was next to play, it was nearly 60 seconds for him to hit after the previous player.  It took a couple months, but we convinced him that he was slow compared to the rest of us.  He did get the interval time down to about 40 seconds.  The 60 seconds seemed like an eternity.

[Double Mocha Man]

23 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

But 8-10 seconds ? I'd love to see that. Never have before.

 

While others in the group are hitting or preparing to hit their approach shot I have already scoped my distance and selected a club. As soon as their shot lands, and perhaps I've commented on it, I step up to the ball, check my aim once, and pull the trigger.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

40 seconds is way too long.  Does everyone think they're Jordan Spieth?

 

If everyone used max 40 seconds for their strokes rounds would be much shorter than today.

 

Furthermore I can tell you that once a player is put on clock they tend to have severe difficulties in managing their stuff under that 40 seconds. They just cannot seem to be able to put another gear in and speed up their actions because they have grown accustomed to playing slowly. And those players are numerous.

[thorens]

On 7/8/2022 at 5:33 PM, bladehunter said:

...   It’s a real skill to learn to play slower.  ... You have to learn to just check out between shots.  ...

Exactly. My wife decided yesterday she wanted to play some speedgolf so we booked this mornings first tee time at our home course. We teed off together and then she  took off and I followed her alone by walking briskly but otherwise playing my normal pace.

 

I finished my full 18-hole round in 1:43 and scored 84. It was a smooth round with no penalties or other surprises although I visited far too many bunkers.

 

When we drove home it hit me: During a 4 hour round I spend most of the time waiting for someone else to do something. It is no wonder I find slow play infuriating.

Edited July 12, 2022 by thorens
I hit send by accident far too early...

[david.c.w]

17 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

On my, your home course is the dream of golf in the universe. So far I have never seen a golf course where every group plays with the same pace and that pace is 4 hours or less.

 

Is that valid for the Book of Guinness records?

 

I am surprised that this is such a surprise for you.  At my home club we are consistently at or under 4 hours, and never over 4:15.  We do NOT have an overly zealous PoP policy.  It just works.  We have generous fairways and the greens are the defense, so limited time is lost looking for balls.  

 

We do have the known slow play offenders.  But even behind them we finish between 4 and 4:15.

 

Private?  Yes

Packed tee sheet?  Yes

Knowledgeable members?  Yes

Respectful members?  Yes

Forgiving course?  Yes

 

Maybe we are a perfect storm, but I can't believe we are unique.

[denkea]

10 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

That's where everyone "thinks" they are. 

 

Next time you're playing use your stopwatch and time the other players. You may find a low end of around 30 seconds extending up to a minute or more for full shots even without extenuating circumstances. 

Funny you should say that.  I used to play with a guy that always complained about others being slow.  The fact was this guy was slower than anyone I played with.  Once when he had complained on the previous hole about someone playing slow I time him on his second shot (par 4) on the next hole.  He hit his shot at the 1 minute 45second mark.  We didn't play too much together very long.

[HenryReardon]

I agree with the comments in this thread that merely just “play faster” isn’t a real fix for this issue. It’s an exciting time for our game to be as busy as it is in a lot of ways, but the overbooking of most muni tracks certainly is making it difficult.
 

Curious to see if anyone else has noticed this but often times the starter will allow a 2 or 3 ball to go off, then a 4 ball then a 2 ball etc. even in the morning on a busy day. This seems to perpetuate the problem. Course layout is a factor, but having groups inherently playing faster and slower sandwiched like that is setting up for failure.

[Double Mocha Man]

16 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

While others in the group are hitting or preparing to hit their approach shot I have already scoped my distance and selected a club. As soon as their shot lands, and perhaps I've commented on it, I step up to the ball, check my aim once, and pull the trigger.

 

Now, to qualify this... if I'm the first to my ball the time is longer, because I need to determine the distance, select and pull out the club... then hit.  So, 20 seconds.

[bobfoster]

On 7/11/2022 at 2:29 PM, sui generis said:

 

Just shows what can be done if the course sets their mind to it.

Was invited by a friend to play a course last weekend. The Colts Neck Country Club in central NJ. (Actually, quite a beautiful course - but with so much freaking sand that David Hasselhoff would have been in heaven.) Made it clear from the very start that they took PoP very seriously. Scorecard is here:

 

http://www.coltsneckgolfclub.com/course/

 

Look at the very bottom. For each hole, they give a time. Starting from zero, a stopwatch should read 13 minutes after the first par 4. 26 after the second par 4. 40 after the third par 5, 51 after the next par 3, etc. And they actually checked your time on the ninth. Sounds a bit draconian, but actually didn't feel that way. They were sort of subtle, and apparently hardly anyone ever needed to be "put on the clock" once they understood they would be put on the clock. The course simply established an environment that was understood from the very first tee for anyone that played there. And (according to my friend) establishing that milieu actually meant that rounds rarely even took the full four hours. 

 

Have been saying this all along - the reason for slow play is not golfers, it is course management. Any course that decides it wants a four hour round - even on busy weekends - and uses policies, and gives rangers the teeth to implement them - can achieve it.

 

It was positively refreshing. Occurred to me that the USGA/R&A have been messing around for RoG changes for years trying to solve this problem - and this course just went about and quietly solved it. In an incredibly soft - but incredibly effective - way.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, bobfoster said:

1) For each hole, they give a time. Starting from zero, a stopwatch should read 13 minutes after the first par 4. 26 after the second par 4. 40 after the third par 5, 51 after the next par 3, etc. And they actually checked your time on the ninth.

 

2) Sounds a bit draconian, but actually didn't feel that way. They were sort of subtle, and apparently hardly anyone ever needed to be "put on the clock" once they understood they would be put on the clock. 

 

1) This is how it's done in every competition around here.

 

2) What was the penalty if you were put on clock? And would they time you for single shots or the entire hole? How much extra time are you allowed to use?

 

The challenge with this is that you need manpower. Potentially more than just one extra person per shift.

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[Carl Spackler3]

On 7/5/2022 at 8:46 PM, 4thand11 said:

...I think are overdone.  That is not to say slow play is not an issue, or that it is not annoying.  But waiting in the fairway for a minute while the group in front of you clears the green, is not slow play.

 

For ex... last weekend I was playing as a single with a group of 3 people.  They were all very nice, and probably average golfers.  One was a senior who played fine but moved a little slower, one was a woman who was pretty good but did not hot the ball very far.  At any rate we were moving at what I consider a decent pace of 4 hours for 18.  The group ahead of us was a threesome and they were excellent golfers, I was watching smoe of their shots.  They played very quickly and got way out in front of us.

 

Anyway as I mentioned, we were going along fine and when we teed off on the 9th hole, the group behind us was on the 8th green and yelled "Hey how about picking the pace up?"  They may have been waiting for a minute here and there as we finished up putting, but at no point were they waiting on the tee box for us for an extended time, or did they ever catch up to us while we were teeing off.  I told them we were playing the front 9 in a 2-hour pace which is fine.  They said, "Hey buddy there's no one in front of you for an entire hole".  I said, "Who cares I don't control how fast they play".

 

My point is this: the obsession with slow play has gotten out of hand.  If you can play a round as a foursome in 4 hours, that is a fine pace.  Especially at a muni where players of all ages and abilities are playing.  If you have to wait 30 seconds to hit your approach shot, that is not an excuse to start yelling at the group in front of you. 

 

Also a related anecdote, once I was playing and there WAS a REALLY slow group 2 groups in front of us and they were causing a legit backup.  The group in front of us was playing quickly but were waiting on every tee box.  So at one PAR 3 a group of meatheads comes up to the tee box while we are still waiting to tee off.  They yell at the group on the green, "Hey let's EFFING GO A**HOLES!!!".  I should note that the group in front of us consisted of a dad and his 14 year old daughter (she was an excellent player by the way).  So these morons are cursing out a 14yo girl because they are annoyed by a backup, without even stopping to think if the people they are yelling at were the cause of the backup.  It's obnoxious and I guess people just suck sometimes.

This is so completely wrong and selfish I still don’t know if you are serious or trying for big reactions. There is no acceptable time limit for golf. Play to the group in front of you if the group behind you is waiting for you. If that’s 3 hrs you play in 3 hours .

[towncrier]

It’s really unfortunate that the knuckleheads who need to heed these suggestions about picking-up their pace and/or allow quicker groups to play thru are not the folks who subscribe to these forums.  

[Dpavs]

The term slow play was primarily invented so that when we ran out of other things to complain about... we'd still have that. (JK, of course)

For me, the occasional wait is not a problem and I know there may be times when a half to nearly a full hole will open up in front of group but as long as it closes back down in short order it's not a big deal. That said, when it gets too extreme and gets to the point where you are literally waiting 3-5 minutes on the group in front of you hole after hole after hole, then it's pretty annoying.

 

Now if slow play was the only issue encountered on the course... I'd probably consider myself lucky because sadly there are far worse things going on all the time.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Dpavs

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:29 PM, Carl Spackler3 said:

This is so completely wrong and selfish I still don’t know if you are serious or trying for big reactions. There is no acceptable time limit for golf. Play to the group in front of you if the group behind you is waiting for you. If that’s 3 hrs you play in 3 hours .

 

I disagree. There are absolutely acceptable time limits for golf. A course will look at their course layout, at "typical" pace of play, and decide that a foursome should be reasonably able to complete the course in some time (maybe 4 hours, maybe 4:15, or less). If you've got the sixth tee time of the day, and you're a foursome following five groups that are not larger than a twosome, it is unreasonable to expect you to be right on their butts. 

 

I.e. the OP's pace was entirely reasonable. However, the mistake was that if OP's group was playing at a reasonable pace, allowed a gap in front of them, and there was a faster group behind, OP should have let them play through instead of being argumentative. OP didn't recognize that just because the group wasn't literally rushing to get around them that if the group commented on the pace of play and the gap in front of them, the group clearly believed they were faster players than OP's group. 

[eugkim]

I think the issue is pretty simple. It doesn't matter how quickly you play (within reason). If 1 or 2 holes in front of you is open and the following group is waiting for each shot, they should be waived through. I never get why people have a bug up their butt about letting someone through. I play at a very fast pace, but will absolutely let someone (usually a single) through if there is nobody ahead of me. Some people are just stubborn and won't budge.

 

I had an instance where my son and I saw a foursome teeing off on 12 while we were teeing off on 10. By the time they were teeing off on 13, we were coming up to the tee. One of them was the head of the golf committee - I saw him talking to the others, then he came up to me and said, apologetically,  that we were free to go to the next hole, but they (his playing partners) weren't going to let us through. I took in in stride and moved on, but I thought it was a shameful display of etiquette. 

 

For me, a 4 hour round is long. If the course is packed, I can live with it. If everyone is playing at that pace because of one group, I don't think it's fair.