LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[subrew]

19 minutes ago, HomaComa said:

This is a smart solution.

 

I genuinely think Greg massively underestimated the response by the PGAT.  The LIV plan was to have 6-8 events a year, get big stars to sign on, while they would still be able to play in DP Tour and PGAT events.  But obviously that went pear shaped fast, and they needed to create more of a "full series" with 14 events, and some feeder series like the Asian Tour, MENA etc.

 

If he could back in time, he could have more wisely spent some money gobbling up half a dozen regional series.  Call them LIV Asia, LIV Australia, LIV Europe, LIV Americas, LIV Middle East.  He could have probably bought up existing series like the Sunshine Tour, Scandinavia Tour, AustralasiaTour etc, for something like $20m.  These are places that either were forgotten by the PGAT, or are new developing areas.  So now he has half a dozen regional series in under represented places.

 

Then the International Series that travels the world, joining the regional series for events.  Regional series winners get into the International tour based on wins and points.   

 

Then the main LIV54 Tour.  It has the 48 signed on "bigger players" but also allows for additional floating teams.  So when LIV54 London happens, the LIV Europe series gets a team for it's four best players, ranked by people who have won or are highest in points.  Same thing for when LIV54 goes to Australia etc.  They could have an additional floating team made up of the points leaders from the International Series.  

 

 

I really don't think Greg thought he was going to have to create an entire structure below the LIV54 events.  

[Ghost of Snead]

9 minutes ago, Tpfol said:

Is that how this works? Respond to a post without comprehending the context? Cool. 

PGA tour players arent eligible to compete in LIV, per the PGA tour.

Thats why there isnt reciprocity

 

 

What context ? 

 

If they wanted the PGA Tour to look bad, LIV could have offered Rahm a spot @ Adelaide knowing full well that PGA Tour wouldn't grant a release. 

[pingbling23]

13 hours ago, idrive said:

 

They're already scraping the bottom of the barrel now.  They want(ed) the top players. They don't want to add any anymore fillers than they already have.

 

 

The purse is the purse. The total amount paid out is the same for 25 players as it is for a 100 players.

and the top money earners were not willing to split that piece of the pie.  the tour would have to come off more money or the sponsors would have to give more.

[pingbling23]

13 hours ago, grm24 said:

Laughable. Exactly how many times in all levels of professional golf has anybody ever shot 60-60 in the last two rounds of an event and won or shot 60-60 in any consecutive rounds? The answer is crystal clear. 

ok, the lowest consecutive 2 rounds combined for 122 strokes as of 2019 (could be lower now) and its possible it could go lower in the future.  i assume you agree with my point since you chose to attack my arbitrary number.  winning doesnt have to be the result.  would it be possible for the player to move into the top 5, top 10, top 20?  if we want to know who the best golfers are for that tournament then why not have all players play the full tournament?

[dalehead]

3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

LIV Golf will be available on YouTube again starting with the DC event.  Bad news is that for those of you outside of the United Kingdom, Italy, Japan, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland, be prepared for a $3/day fee.

 

In other news, there are some great VPN deals you can get for less than $12/month.

 

 

WTF? At first I thought this was a joke. So I checked in on YouTube. Sure enough they have the first round of the DC event. But it is $2.99 pay per view. What happened to the CW? Well they are also showing the first round on their app. So why would I want to pay YouTube $2.99? Assuming I wanted to watch LIV that is.

[HackerDad78]

17 hours ago, subrew said:

 

The only Nike contract I've seen that has allowed other logos on the shirt, is Nelly's.  And she is likely the most recent Nike signing.  She has Richard Mille on the right shoulder and Cisco on the left.  Both deals she had before signing with Nike.  Even her official "I just signed with Nike" photoshoot have those logos.

That's correct.  Nike's stance is clear - no other logos besides the swoosh.  When Jason Day went over to Nike, they had to honor his agreement with Lexus.  So his first year in Nike, he had a Lexus logo left sleeve.  The following year it was gone. Guessing this will be the case for Nelly over time as well. 

[ahenderX]

7 hours ago, AltC said:

This may be a dumb question- but if the Asian Tour gets OGWR points allocated per tournament/ field and they have an interest in LIV via their financial backers - why don’t the Asian  Tour Co-sanction LIV events - with some consideration of course such as 4 additional spots for the Asian Tour players to break through onto the LIV tour (another team basically) with rotating players based upon recent winners on the Asian Tour? Would the OGWR then not be driven to award points based upon the field? I know there are other considerations but is this not a valid (back door) to get OGWR points allocated?

Below is from Golf News Net (07/27/2022). Similar information was published in a LIV Golf press release that is no longer available on the LIV website.

 

LIV Golf announces plans for 2023 league year, with players expected to compete on Asian Tour

 

"As anticipated from the start, LIV Golf will utilize the Asian Tour and their co-sanctioned International Series as a secondary tour that will feed into and out of the LIV Golf League. In 2023, the International Series will consist of 11 separate 72-hole events, with events spread out geographically.

 

"LIV Golf League players will be 'expected' to compete in a to-be-shared number of International Series events, which will be eligible to offer Official World Golf Ranking points to participants -- something that is not available through LIV Golf's 54-hole, shotgun-start events. International Series events this year have purses of $1.5 million to $2 million."

 

The 2023 Asian Tour schedule consists of six International Series events, none of which had or will have LIV players. LIV's 2023 schedule consists of no International Series events.

Edited May 26, 2023 by ahenderX

[Holy Moses]

17 hours ago, OBbogey5 said:

LIV is an invite only Tour. It’s that simple, no points can be given. 

Thought they had four spots up for grabs each year?

[jdl]

On 5/25/2023 at 12:37 PM, Golferpaul said:

Hmmm..... so excluding several top five finishers (and a winner) at the Masters and PGA isn't making it less accurate?  I'm confused by how you define accurate.

Yes it's clear you are confused. What were the changes to OWGR that you think caused this?

[subrew]

1 hour ago, ahenderX said:

The 2023 Asian Tour schedule consists of six International Series events, none of which had or will have LIV players. LIV's 2023 schedule consists of no International Series events.

 

Is this last bit from the press release, or just commentary?

 

Only reason I'm pointing it out, is quite a few LIV players have competed in International Series events this year.  Only reason I know this was I was on the OWGR site, noticed the International Vietnam event from a few weeks ago, and Anirban Lahiri finished T2, earned 4.59 points, and actually moved up from 102 to 91 in the world rankings.  Paul Casey was also in the event.  And a host of guys were at the Oman event.

 

For many of these guys not eligible for majors, earning 5-10 points at a International event may be their only chance to get points, and try to keep themselves in the top 100.

Edited May 26, 2023 by subrew

[golfortennis]

3 hours ago, subrew said:

 

I genuinely think Greg massively underestimated the response by the PGAT.  The LIV plan was to have 6-8 events a year, get big stars to sign on, while they would still be able to play in DP Tour and PGAT events.  But obviously that went pear shaped fast, and they needed to create more of a "full series" with 14 events, and some feeder series like the Asian Tour, MENA etc.

 

If he could back in time, he could have more wisely spent some money gobbling up half a dozen regional series.  Call them LIV Asia, LIV Australia, LIV Europe, LIV Americas, LIV Middle East.  He could have probably bought up existing series like the Sunshine Tour, Scandinavia Tour, AustralasiaTour etc, for something like $20m.  These are places that either were forgotten by the PGAT, or are new developing areas.  So now he has half a dozen regional series in under represented places.

 

Then the International Series that travels the world, joining the regional series for events.  Regional series winners get into the International tour based on wins and points.   

 

Then the main LIV54 Tour.  It has the 48 signed on "bigger players" but also allows for additional floating teams.  So when LIV54 London happens, the LIV Europe series gets a team for it's four best players, ranked by people who have won or are highest in points.  Same thing for when LIV54 goes to Australia etc.  They could have an additional floating team made up of the points leaders from the International Series.  

 

 

I really don't think Greg thought he was going to have to create an entire structure below the LIV54 events.  

 

I know hindsight is 20/20, but this would have been a brilliant plan.  Accumulate Aces and kings, and then play your hand. 

[HomaComa]

3 hours ago, subrew said:

 

I genuinely think Greg massively underestimated the response by the PGAT.  The LIV plan was to have 6-8 events a year, get big stars to sign on, while they would still be able to play in DP Tour and PGAT events.  But obviously that went pear shaped fast, and they needed to create more of a "full series" with 14 events, and some feeder series like the Asian Tour, MENA etc.

 

If he could back in time, he could have more wisely spent some money gobbling up half a dozen regional series.  Call them LIV Asia, LIV Australia, LIV Europe, LIV Americas, LIV Middle East.  He could have probably bought up existing series like the Sunshine Tour, Scandinavia Tour, AustralasiaTour etc, for something like $20m.  These are places that either were forgotten by the PGAT, or are new developing areas.  So now he has half a dozen regional series in under represented places.

 

Then the International Series that travels the world, joining the regional series for events.  Regional series winners get into the International tour based on wins and points.   

 

Then the main LIV54 Tour.  It has the 48 signed on "bigger players" but also allows for additional floating teams.  So when LIV54 London happens, the LIV Europe series gets a team for it's four best players, ranked by people who have won or are highest in points.  Same thing for when LIV54 goes to Australia etc.  They could have an additional floating team made up of the points leaders from the International Series.  

 

 

I really don't think Greg thought he was going to have to create an entire structure below the LIV54 events.  

Well LIV copied everything from the PGL. The Saudis initially financed the PGL but decided to break off.

[Golferpaul]

2 hours ago, HackerDad78 said:

That's correct.  Nike's stance is clear - no other logos besides the swoosh.  

That has to cost Nike dearly.

[Tpfol]

5 hours ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

What context ? 

 

If they wanted the PGA Tour to look bad, LIV could have offered Rahm a spot @ Adelaide knowing full well that PGA Tour wouldn't grant a release. 

Silly statement

PGA Tour players arent eligible to play LIV or they face being banned.

Period

That's why there isnt reciprocity. Changing the subject to wanting to make the PGA tour look bad? Good grief.

 

[billyspan]

On 5/24/2023 at 7:39 PM, HomaComa said:

 

I did a little bit of research on those tours and one these 54 hole tours is the "GIRA De Golf Professional Mexicana". This particular tour has fields of 70+ players and has a 36-hole cut unlike LIV.

More detail:  The OWGR will begin to include the Gira de Golf Professional de Mexicana after the first week of January '23 following a 16-month application process. The tour was founded in 2017.

[billyspan]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:41 AM, pingbling23 said:

lets be honest about cuts.  it isnt for eliminating the weaker players.  if you want the best over the course of 3 or 4 rounds to win then they should get to play all the rounds.  someone, especially at this level of golf, that misses the cut could go 60-60 on the weekend and possibly win.  cuts are so those players dont have to be paid.

You have a point. If you go back to even Hogan's time only something like the top 20 were paid. Even players that made the cut were "stiffed"!

However, the majors have played a majority role in creating the OWGR into what it is. The majors are 72 holes, 144+ players with a 36-hole cut.  They will judge players on that criteria and the further you are from that the less they will factor in those results.

But who knows?!? The British Open used to have a 54-hole cut (in addition to 36-hole) and the U.S. Open would finish with 36 holes on Saturday. Things can change...

[billyspan]

4 hours ago, subrew said:

 

Is this last bit from the press release, or just commentary?

 

Only reason I'm pointing it out, is quite a few LIV players have competed in International Series events this year.  Only reason I know this was I was on the OWGR site, noticed the International Vietnam event from a few weeks ago, and Anirban Lahiri finished T2, earned 4.59 points, and actually moved up from 102 to 91 in the world rankings.  Paul Casey was also in the event.  And a host of guys were at the Oman event.

 

For many of these guys not eligible for majors, earning 5-10 points at a International event may be their only chance to get points, and try to keep themselves in the top 100.

Correct, I found that bit off as well.

 

Koepka played in (and MC'd) the International Series Oman.

 

 

[billyspan]

8 hours ago, subrew said:

 

I genuinely think Greg massively underestimated the response by the PGAT.  The LIV plan was to have 6-8 events a year, get big stars to sign on, while they would still be able to play in DP Tour and PGAT events.  But obviously that went pear shaped fast, and they needed to create more of a "full series" with 14 events, and some feeder series like the Asian Tour, MENA etc.

 

If he could back in time, he could have more wisely spent some money gobbling up half a dozen regional series.  Call them LIV Asia, LIV Australia, LIV Europe, LIV Americas, LIV Middle East.  He could have probably bought up existing series like the Sunshine Tour, Scandinavia Tour, AustralasiaTour etc, for something like $20m.  These are places that either were forgotten by the PGAT, or are new developing areas.  So now he has half a dozen regional series in under represented places.

 

Then the International Series that travels the world, joining the regional series for events.  Regional series winners get into the International tour based on wins and points.   

 

Then the main LIV54 Tour.  It has the 48 signed on "bigger players" but also allows for additional floating teams.  So when LIV54 London happens, the LIV Europe series gets a team for it's four best players, ranked by people who have won or are highest in points.  Same thing for when LIV54 goes to Australia etc.  They could have an additional floating team made up of the points leaders from the International Series.  

 

 

I really don't think Greg thought he was going to have to create an entire structure below the LIV54 events.  

I think you are right that the goal was 6-8 events. These things are NOT cheap to put on! Adding events hits their bottom line as their revenues do not increase as much as their expenses. I would argue their net is LESS with 14 events vs 8 events.

 

Your argument about taking pro golf to South America, Africa and other places sounds great if your goal is to "Grow Professional Golf through Increased Opportunities".  However, that has NEVER been the goal of LIV. They are for profit.  There is NOT a good ROI in European and Asian pro golf. I would say that pro golf has a NEGATIVE ROI for the African, Middle East, Australasian and South American markets.

The elephant in the room is LIV needs North America and specifically it needs to own the U.S.A professional golf market to hit its well publicized financial goals.

[2bGood]

On 5/26/2023 at 6:20 AM, CDM said:

 

100% correct post...!  Finally some "facts" posted in this thread  🤣

 

I looked into this awhile back when comments where made by Phil............given they came from Phil... 

 

The part I bolded is what is interesting to me and I am not sure how the IRS looks at it.   If the ruling is "not to engage in a regular business for a profit" it was a bit surprising to see that the PGAT did have just over $800 MM in cash asset.

 

NOW I could see it as "reserve" on operation which is allowed or something to that extent but I would have thought it would have been way less. 

 

"not to engage in a regular business for a profit" means that you can not create profit for shareholders or owners. Building a war chest allowed. For the record I am not defending the tax code (would anybody?) just trying to explain what it means.

 

22 hours ago, subrew said:

 

Nothing, because LIV doesn't have any arrangement with the majors.  They do have a way to "play on" to the main LIV Tour.  Scott Vincent won the Asian Tour Order of Merit in 2022, and was granted full LIV status for 2023.  Their International Series is basically their KFT.  I don't recall the exact wording that came out a couple months ago, but the top finishers on the year-end Order of Merit ranking will get LIV spots for 2024, and they will also run a qualifying event to fill a few more spots.  

 

 

LIV needs no arrangement to do this. Our golf club could pass a motion tomorrow that the winner of the Open Championship (or any other event) gets free membership. We don't need the Open Championships endorsement to do this. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by 2bGood

[tiderider]

9 hours ago, Tpfol said:

Invite based on criteria. 

Sort of like when Jack and Arnie walked away from the PGA of America and started their own thing

lol ... bit of a reach there ... 

[bcjim]

3 hours ago, Tpfol said:

Silly statement

PGA Tour players arent eligible to play LIV or they face being banned.

Period

That's why there isnt reciprocity. Changing the subject to wanting to make the PGA tour look bad? Good grief.

 

They ARE eligible to be given the *opportunity* to play SGL. They can accept or decline. Being offered something is no going to get them banned from the PGA Tour. Accepting it might.

[HomaComa]

3 hours ago, billyspan said:

More detail:  The OWGR will begin to include the Gira de Golf Professional de Mexicana after the first week of January '23 following a 16-month application process. The tour was founded in 2017.

Send this to Phil

[Purple Toupee]

On 5/25/2023 at 5:58 PM, bscinstnct said:

 

No, you missed the point. He said “future stars”, that’s what I was referencing 

 

As far as guys who have “made it”. Sure, if LIV offers a player $150MM guaranteed it’s something to consider. 
 

But it looks like LIV is a commercial failure so it’s most likely more risk than guys like Rahm and Scheff are looking for. 
 

And the last person any of these guys trust is Phil lol

I wasn’t referring to what anyone else said, I was referring to your posts.  Twice you posted about Brooks working his way through the minors, and then you brought up Puig and Piot.  That’s where your missing the point of Phil’s post.  He isn’t trying to recruit players like that, he wants to recruit the established players who don’t need to go through the grind anymore.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Purple Toupee said:

I wasn’t referring to what anyone else said, I was referring to your posts.  Twice you posted about Brooks working his way through the minors, and then you brought up Puig and Piot.  That’s where your missing the point of Phil’s post.  He isn’t trying to recruit players like that, he wants to recruit the established players who don’t need to go through the grind anymore.

 

“The grind”?

 

LIV requires 14 events, add majors (for the guys who can get in). With 5 events in Europe or Asia/Australia 

 

Thats 18. If you’re only playing 14, you couldn’t get into any majors. 

 

PGA Tour is 20 and that includes all events including Majors, Fedex, and Players. Not sure if any are overseas besides the Open. 

 

Once again, Phil is self serving up smoke and mirrors ; )

 

 

 

 

[One Putter]

10 hours ago, HomaComa said:

Send this to Phil

He's too busy getting in twitter fights with Brandel. Yes, two guys who are like 60 or whatever fighting online and acting like 5th graders hurling insults. Playing to an audience. And instead of mocking this behavior we take sides and encourage it. We used to be a real society, you know.

[ahenderX]

16 hours ago, subrew said:

 

Is this last bit from the press release, or just commentary?

 

Only reason I'm pointing it out, is quite a few LIV players have competed in International Series events this year.  Only reason I know this was I was on the OWGR site, noticed the International Vietnam event from a few weeks ago, and Anirban Lahiri finished T2, earned 4.59 points, and actually moved up from 102 to 91 in the world rankings.  Paul Casey was also in the event.  And a host of guys were at the Oman event.

 

For many of these guys not eligible for majors, earning 5-10 points at a International event may be their only chance to get points, and try to keep themselves in the top 100.

Thanks for the correction, especially the Oman event. The point I was trying to make is LIV Golf had an opportunity this year to tick off an OWGR requirement by staging enough International Series events to meet the OWGR minimum of 75 players per event.

[freddi22cl]

Phil goes to twitter to take a shot at Chamblee? lol...this guy is like an angry child

[Golferpaul]

21 hours ago, jdl said:

Yes it's clear you are confused. What were the changes to OWGR that you think caused this?

Yes, I'm confused.  The OWGR clearly had several LIV players ranked way too low.  And yet you think it was accurate.  What is accurate about ranking the guy who almost won two major at position 52?  You think Brooks at 52 was accurate?  If so, I'm even more confused about your definition of accurate.

[ws6]

LIV will need new players to keep the tour going.  

 

I'm curious what LIV's plan is to bring in new players?  Is there another path other than bigger contracts and purses?  

[Noles]

7 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Yes, I'm confused.  The OWGR clearly had several LIV players ranked way too low.  And yet you think it was accurate.  What is accurate about ranking the guy who almost won two major at position 52?  You think Brooks at 52 was accurate?  If so, I'm even more confused about your definition of accurate.

Brooks made a decision to play in events that do not receive points.   There were no changes made to the OWGR that caused his drop in the rankings.  Failure to play in events that receive points caused it.  It's on 54 to make the adjustments necessary to receive the points, not for the OWGR to bend over backwards to accommodate 54.