LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Titleist99]

13 minutes ago, bcjim said:

When you chip away all the filler and has-been golfers,  who are these guys even beating?  Even is they got points,  it would hero level points. If that. Beating Chase koepka isn't going to boost MY rating!

What they're saying is that the bottom of LIV Golfs roster is comparable to the PGATs bottom roster, even though the PGAT has 150 players and LIV  has 48.

 

Somewhat ridiculous in my mind.

[Barfolomew]

Awesome Sunday back nine.... many guys fighting....... ending up with a Spanish battle ⚔️ Rahm vs Sergio Garcia with 3 to go and then Niemann joins em with a sweet birdie putt then brings it home.... nice he didn't waste a great 59 lol

 

Great start to the season 💪🌮

[Louis_Posture]

24 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

Yeah I did catch that from him as well. I think he also said something at the end of his interview along the lines of "I want to win majors, but I cant get in", to which the interviewer said "oh well hopefully that changes" or something to that effect. Which it wont since this is a non-OGWR counting event. It is sad, since there are a lot of guys that deserve exemptions into majors, like Niemann. Probably been one of the hotter players on any tour since fall. But that's another discussion.

On the PGA Tour from sponsor contracts Koepka and Rahm were probably pulling in $40 milllion per year, DJ, $35 million,DeChambeau $30 million and Nieman about $10 million. But that was not enough moey for these guys

so they jumped ship to join LIV. I am glad for themand their bank accounts but don't want to hear any of them complaining about not getting to play in this or that Major. They made their beds and can lay in them.

[Louis_Posture]

2 hours ago, beamlith said:

. Put guys like Phil and Dustin on the hot seat to perform or have their rank taken.

What is their rank?

[jjtour]

9 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

What they're saying is that the bottom of LIV Golfs roster is comparable to the PGATs bottom roster, even though the PGAT has 150 players and LIV  has 48.

 

Somewhat ridiculous in my mind.

 

It's a weird system for sure, since the bottom of LIV's roster, eg. Westwood, Kaymer, Mickelson, some of the asian tour guys, would not even have cards on the PGAT given their current form. Mickelson would for a lot of reasons but it wouldnt be from current merit, put it that way. But that also doesnt mean the top guys deserve nothing. A lot of what LIV does isnt ideal but some points for top finishers would be the sweet spot. Like half points value of a PGAT event and even that to just the top half of the field would be about right IMO. You can adjust the weighting give or take. But winning or top 5 a LIV event isnt nothing. Any time you're beating a guy like Rahm, Brooks, Bryson, C Smith, etc. you're golfing your ball.

[jjtour]

9 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

On the PGA Tour from sponsor contracts Koepka and Rahm were probably pulling in $40 milllion per year, DJ, $35 million,DeChambeau $30 million and Nieman about $10 million. But that was not enough moey for these guys

so they jumped ship to join LIV. I am glad for themand their bank accounts but don't want to hear any of them complaining about not getting to play in this or that Major. They made their beds and can lay in them.

 

There are only a few guys that wouldnt have major's status that should. Thinking like Neimann, maybe Abe Ancer, Gooch, Leishman, Meronk. Guys like Bryson, DJ have exemptions that still exist for a while. So they are laying in their cash filled beds and getting their major starts regardless. Just think it's better for the fans to have the most complete fields for majors, actual best on best not what has been picked by one tours status in OWGR or not. When you look at top 100 in the world now though, there are some guys in there I wouldnt think would be top 300 in the world, some surprising names. But have been bumped up since these LIV guys have left. Since there is really only two majors that would be fully based on exemptions anyways, Masters and US PGA, then I dont know if this is the biggest hill to die on either in grand scheme of things.

[ASN21]

Always happy to read that Sergio lost. Still have zero interest in watching LIV.

[woahnelly]

9 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

There are only a few guys that wouldnt have major's status that should. Thinking like Neimann, maybe Abe Ancer, Gooch, Leishman, Meronk. Guys like Bryson, DJ have exemptions that still exist for a while. So they are laying in their cash filled beds and getting their major starts regardless. Just think it's better for the fans to have the most complete fields for majors, actual best on best not what has been picked by one tours status in OWGR or not. When you look at top 100 in the world now though, there are some guys in there I wouldnt think would be top 300 in the world, some surprising names. But have been bumped up since these LIV guys have left. Since there is really only two majors that would be fully based on exemptions anyways, Masters and US PGA, then I dont know if this is the biggest hill to die on either in grand scheme of things.

 

https://tugr.org/rankings

 

These are more unbiased 

 

Brian Harman is currently 10 in OWGR. How can it be taken seriously? 

[subrew]

27 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

It's a weird system for sure, since the bottom of LIV's roster, eg. Westwood, Kaymer, Mickelson, some of the asian tour guys, would not even have cards on the PGAT given their current form. Mickelson would for a lot of reasons but it wouldnt be from current merit, put it that way. But that also doesnt mean the top guys deserve nothing. A lot of what LIV does isnt ideal but some points for top finishers would be the sweet spot. Like half points value of a PGAT event and even that to just the top half of the field would be about right IMO. You can adjust the weighting give or take. But winning or top 5 a LIV event isnt nothing. Any time you're beating a guy like Rahm, Brooks, Bryson, C Smith, etc. you're golfing your ball.

 

Many pages back we discussed how to deal with all of these "limited field" and "invitation" only events, and the idea of only awarding points to the top 50% could be applied.  I.e. if there was a cut at the half way point, nobody who fell below that line should get points at all.  Even in a PGAT elevated event.  

 

For the Pebble event, OWGR applied the same normal cut line, in this case T66 and better.  Even though there were only 77 players.  So Rory still got OWGR points for finishing T66, 15 shots off the lead.  Instead, they should have made a "points cut" at around 38-40 players (and ties) and nobody below that point should earn points.

 

Same thing should be applied to Tiger's Hero event, where only 19-20 players play.  The fact tiger finished near DFL and still got points was stupid.

 

And you could do the same for LIV, only the top 26 (and ties) get points.  Then throw in whatever reductions you want for 54 holes etc., and apply it to all events that play 54 holes.  

 

But it wouldn't really be hard to apply a half way "points cut" across the entire structure of golf, to deal with the limited field no cut events.  

Edited February 5 by subrew

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, jjtour said:

 

The argument for LIV as a whole is why are they bothering with Polo shirts at all. If they want to be casual, a smart marketing move IMO would be drawing from the world of basketball or Soccer. Have a team kit type deal that you can market the hell out of. Not these half a** polo shirts with a Clip art logo on it. Think of all the most iconic jerseys in sports, Yankee pin stripes, Chicago Bulls red/black/white uni's, Barcelona FC and Real Madrid "Los Blancos", I could go on. But it's something you identify with. I dont know how much I'm identifying with the Cleeks or Iron Heads at the moment

 

It's golf?

 

Maybe I should have said more casual.  I don't know if it is a desire to be more casual per se, but rather a desire to appear less stodgy and perhaps appeal to a younger, less tied to tradition crowd?

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with a polo.  I bet 90% or more of my craps have a collar.  I am covered in dirt sitting at my computer at work and I have on tan slacks, a golf polo under a work logo quarter zip.  If I were to get a logoed shirt for one of these LIV teams, I would have intentions of wearing it on the golf course and for that reason I would want it to have a collar.  And if I chose to wear it off the course, I would still want it to have a collar, but that is just what I typically wear around.

 

Interestingly enough, when I get logo gear for other sports, it usually is a polo shirt or quarter zip that I wear over a polo shirt.

[pdxhak]

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/39464920/world-no-4-viktor-hovland-withdraws-wm-phoenix-open

[jjtour]

11 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

 

https://tugr.org/rankings

 

These are more unbiased 

 

Brian Harman is currently 10 in OWGR. How can it be taken seriously? 

 

How can Brian Harman be taken seriously? I get your joking but he wouldnt be one that I'm looking at. Nothing taking away from Nick Dunlap and his win, but when he is ranked higher than Neimann, given Neimann's play in the last few months alone, regardless of multiple PGAT wins in the past. Maybe OWGR is skewed the wrong direction. The TUGR rankings look okay, almost skews more towards LIV though being weighted stronger. I would say there should be a middle ground.

[j.b.newton]

10 minutes ago, pdxhak said:

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/39464920/world-no-4-viktor-hovland-withdraws-wm-phoenix-open

I do love the conspiracy theories coming from this.....

 

I'm sure they will range from he has already signed a combo deal with Rory to create a new team all the way down to he is sick and had to withdraw for those reasons.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

It would be very difficult to say liv is growing the game when you see how much it has divided the fans. You know, the guys that actually play golf, watch golf.

 

Participate on golf forums.

 

I dare say there has never been this much division, disagreement in the professional golf world. Now the time is spent on beating each other over the head rather than talking golf.

 

You coming from a position of experience, I would say you are spot on with your assessment.

 

---

 

And for something that is LIV Golf related, what is the plan for accommodating more players mid season?  I liked the suggestion that they do have Monday qualifier type events where four spots are up for grabs to form a "free-agents" type of team for that event.  Maybe at some point there will be a LIV Academy type thing or official feeder system with more promotion and relegation opportunity.

[woahnelly]

3 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

How can Brian Harman be taken seriously? I get your joking but he wouldnt be one that I'm looking at. Nothing taking away from Nick Dunlap and his win, but when he is ranked higher than Neimann, given Neimann's play in the last few months alone, regardless of multiple PGAT wins in the past. Maybe OWGR is skewed the wrong direction. The TUGR rankings look okay, almost skews more towards LIV though being weighted stronger. I would say there should be a middle ground.

 

Yeah I think there are some other models out there that may be a bit more accurate, this specific one is just not as fragmented and biased as the OWGR. Gooch might be too high, but he's tough to quantify. Was never a world beater on the PGA tour but he's in his prime right now. Id guess he was 50's/60's before joining LIV? 

[bcjim]

26 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

 

https://tugr.org/rankings

 

These are more unbiased 

 

Brian Harman is currently 10 in OWGR. How can it be taken seriously? 

Um, in addition to being the current BO champion he had 3 2nd place, 7 top 10, and 13 top 25 finishes and was 8th on the money list. 

[Titleist99]

51 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

It's a weird system for sure, since the bottom of LIV's roster, eg. Westwood, Kaymer, Mickelson, some of the asian tour guys, would not even have cards on the PGAT given their current form. Mickelson would for a lot of reasons but it wouldnt be from current merit, put it that way. But that also doesnt mean the top guys deserve nothing. A lot of what LIV does isnt ideal but some points for top finishers would be the sweet spot. Like half points value of a PGAT event and even that to just the top half of the field would be about right IMO. You can adjust the weighting give or take. But winning or top 5 a LIV event isnt nothing. Any time you're beating a guy like Rahm, Brooks, Bryson, C Smith, etc. you're golfing your ball.

I totally understand your position but #1 their competition is chosen. #2 How many points-1/2,  1/4, 1/8th? #3 What are you giving points for, a team effort? A singles effort? Both? You're playing the exact players over and over again, does that factor in?

 

I can think of ten more questions.

[grm24]

17 minutes ago, woahnelly said:

 

Yeah I think there are some other models out there that may be a bit more accurate, this specific one is just not as fragmented and biased as the OWGR. Gooch might be too high, but he's tough to quantify. Was never a world beater on the PGA tour but he's in his prime right now. Id guess he was 50's/60's before joining LIV? 

35th after his last PGA Tour event (Colonial) in late May 2022. 

[Louis_Posture]

47 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

There are only a few guys that wouldnt have major's status that should. Thinking like Neimann, maybe Abe Ancer, Gooch, Leishman, Meronk. Guys like Bryson, DJ have exemptions that still exist for a while. So they are laying in their cash filled beds and getting their major starts regardless. Just think it's better for the fans to have the most complete fields for majors, actual best on best not what has been picked by one tours status in OWGR or not. When you look at top 100 in the world now though, there are some guys in there I wouldnt think would be top 300 in the world, some surprising names. But have been bumped up since these LIV guys have left. Since there is really only two majors that would be fully based on exemptions anyways, Masters and US PGA, then I dont know if this is the biggest hill to die on either in grand scheme of things.

For 50 years the PGA Tour has operated tournaments which provided opportunities, money, career etc... for players. Also the Masters, US Open, British Open and PGA Championship were Majors because PGA Tour players made it so.

My point is that the PGA Tour deserves respect for its 50 plus years of accomplishments. The players like Nieman not already qualified to play in a Major,who disrespected the PGA Tour by leaving it to join LIV don't deserve to play in Majors. 

[Pops99]

1 hour ago, jjtour said:

 

Yeah I did catch that from him as well. I think he also said something at the end of his interview along the lines of "I want to win majors, but I cant get in", to which the interviewer said "oh well hopefully that changes" or something to that effect. Which it wont since this is a non-OGWR counting event. It is sad, since there are a lot of guys that deserve exemptions into majors, like Niemann. Probably been one of the hotter players on any tour since fall. But that's another discussion.

Oh no, if it isn't the consequences of his own actions. 

 

If only he knew this when signing with LIV....

[woahnelly]

27 minutes ago, bcjim said:

Um, in addition to being the current BO champion he had 3 2nd place, 7 top 10, and 13 top 25 finishes and was 8th on the money list. 

 

True I always viewed him as a 20s guy but he was def playing good golf before his major triumph

[KennyP]

I'm interested in seeing what the Masters committee do with invites this year.

[Louis_Posture]

4 minutes ago, KennyP said:

I'm interested in seeing what the Masters committee do with invites this year.

 

Here are the criteria used for Masters Tournament invitations:

Former winners of The Masters

Winners of the U.S. Open in the last five years

Winners of the British Open in the last five years

Winners of the PGA Championship in the last five years

Winners of the Players Championship in the last three years

Winner and runner-up from the last U.S. Amateur Championship

Winner of the last British Amateur Championship

Winner of the last Asia-Pacific Amateur Championship

Winner of the last Latin America Amateur Championship

Winner of the last U.S. Mid-Amateur Championship

The top 12 finishers (including ties) from last year's Masters tournament

The top 4 finishers (including ties), from last year's U.S. Open

The top 4 finishers (including ties) from last year's British Open

The top 4 finishers (including ties) from last year's PGA Championship

Full PGA Tour event winners since 2023 Masters

All players who qualified for the 2023 Tour Championship

The Top 50 in the Official World Golf Ranking at the end of 2023

The Top 50 in the Official World Golf Ranking published the week before the Masters

Special invitations

[jjtour]

46 minutes ago, Pops99 said:

Oh no, if it isn't the consequences of his own actions. 

 

If only he knew this when signing with LIV....

 

LOL. I love the argument that LIV golfers are evil and PGAT not, they both play for money and not pure for the love of the game amateur last time I checked. Not talking politics here at all. The argument that you signed with LIV therefore you're not worth any world ranking points as a professional is absolute BS. I'm not saying full points, I'm saying find a system that rewards every professional playing vs their competition. Or you get rid of exemptions for EVERYONE and make it qualification based right from the start. Dunno how the Masters is gonna do that, but US Open, Open Championship already do. Just expand it. You wanna play majors show up to the qualifier, not given to one guy or another based on being on a more elite tour. I would argue that European Tour players are undervalued in world rankings given their difficulty of travel alone, but I hear little in response to them getting more points than what they do now. Everything is about the US PGAT, which should not be the case.

[jjtour]

59 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

For 50 years the PGA Tour has operated tournaments which provided opportunities, money, career etc... for players. Also the Masters, US Open, British Open and PGA Championship were Majors because PGA Tour players made it so.

My point is that the PGA Tour deserves respect for its 50 plus years of accomplishments. The players like Nieman not already qualified to play in a Major,who disrespected the PGA Tour by leaving it to join LIV don't deserve to play in Majors. 

 

Okay so I dont think the PGAT made the PGA, US Open or British majors since they have been around long before the PGAT. I 100% am on the side of history with you, 90% of the PGAT events are made up cash grabs though, not holier than thou events. An event like the Canadian Open, with a long and rich history predating PGAT has been basically pushed aside for whatever event the tour deems is a better cash grab for players. I dont see hate towards players that skip the Canadian Open, cuz they "disrespected it", end of the day pro golf should be more of an open shop to anyone that can qualify for the majors. I would argue for more open qualifying events, less closed shop. See who actually the best players are,  based on traditions or not.

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

7 hours ago, jdl said:

How did it show people were wrong?

Go watch or listen to it yourself and you will know

[BlackDiamondPar5]

22 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

LOL. I love the argument that LIV golfers are evil and PGAT not, they both play for money and not pure for the love of the game amateur last time I checked. Not talking politics here at all. The argument that you signed with LIV therefore you're not worth any world ranking points as a professional is absolute BS. I'm not saying full points, I'm saying find a system that rewards every professional playing vs their competition. Or you get rid of exemptions for EVERYONE and make it qualification based right from the start. Dunno how the Masters is gonna do that, but US Open, Open Championship already do. Just expand it. You wanna play majors show up to the qualifier, not given to one guy or another based on being on a more elite tour. I would argue that European Tour players are undervalued in world rankings given their difficulty of travel alone, but I hear little in response to them getting more points than what they do now. Everything is about the US PGAT, which should not be the case.

There has been a system for getting points. However Norman's arrogance wouldn't allow LIV to comply with the OWGR framework. This is not an OWGR problem, it's self-inflicted problem by LIV! 

 

Throwing a tantrum like a child that doesn't get their way won't get you points. Next time follow the rules! 

Edited February 5 by BlackDiamondPar5

[Pops99]

19 minutes ago, jjtour said:

 

LOL. I love the argument that LIV golfers are evil and PGAT not, they both play for money and not pure for the love of the game amateur last time I checked. Not talking politics here at all. The argument that you signed with LIV therefore you're not worth any world ranking points as a professional is absolute BS. I'm not saying full points, I'm saying find a system that rewards every professional playing vs their competition. Or you get rid of exemptions for EVERYONE and make it qualification based right from the start. Dunno how the Masters is gonna do that, but US Open, Open Championship already do. Just expand it. You wanna play majors show up to the qualifier, not given to one guy or another based on being on a more elite tour. I would argue that European Tour players are undervalued in world rankings given their difficulty of travel alone, but I hear little in response to them getting more points than what they do now. Everything is about the US PGAT, which should not be the case.

That's not the point. They KNEW when they left they had no OWGR points and none were forthcoming (unless they actually believed Third Leg Greg). And now they want to whine about not being in the majors. They KNEW this. 

[aus10KC]

2 hours ago, woahnelly said:

 

https://tugr.org/rankings

 

These are more unbiased 

 

Brian Harman is currently 10 in OWGR. How can it be taken seriously? 

 

The problem with TUGR in my opinion, is that it's ranking scores not tournament results on position finished.

 

 

[jjtour]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

I totally understand your position but #1 their competition is chosen. #2 How many points-1/2,  1/4, 1/8th? #3 What are you giving points for, a team effort? A singles effort? Both? You're playing the exact players over and over again, does that factor in?

 

I can think of ten more questions.

 

1. Competition is chosen. So is PGAT, last time I checked you dont play against some random locals at whatever tour stop of the week. You play against the same guys over and over. 

2. How many points? Given the size and strength of field, no cut. I would argue for about 1/2 to 1/3 points for points finishers, and only about half the field would get points. You dont just get points for showing up. Which to my understanding, was the case with some PGAT events until recent changes (HERO World Challenge)

3. Singles or Team. Last time I checked one of your teammates doesnt hit YOUR ball for you. This is a singles game until they start playing alternate shot or Scrambles, which they are unlikely to do.

 

You can have as many questions as you want, I dont see a world where zero points is the answer for any professional tour. Yes I get the argument on closed shop for LIV, that's likely the easiest reason to not give them points. If LIV was smart they would rectify that and comply but sounds like they have dug in and drawn their line in the sand and that's on LIV brass for a giant F up to not get their league points.

 

For arguments sake, lets say Jon Rahm or Rory or whoever else was given an secret exemption to some little state open to come play that awards OWGR points. They didnt qualify, they just get an exemption cuz that state open wants eye balls on and it's gonna be a surprise for all involved. Rory or Jon plays well but some local stud careers and beats them by one. Is your argument for that local stud to get OWGR points and/or Rory/Jon? Or nah cuz not everyone could have known or played in this event.