LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[ShowMe]

If you want OWGR points, then play 72 holes not 54.  And give back all your prepaid money.  Until you do that, you are playing with an advantage that PGA Tour pros don't have.  In other words, even the playing field if you want the points.  

[lopey986]

1 hour ago, freeze16172002 said:

yeah I wasnt that clear. What LIV player is excluded from playing majors this year because of the OWGR

Uh, the great Taint Gooch, obviously. 

 

The best golfers on all tours will be in the Masters field this year, LIV included. Maybe eventually we'll run into the issue where an actual top player is being left off because they are with LIV but it's going to be a couple years, most likely, before that happens.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

I would just say even with the multitude of the small tours that are represented, aside from deviating the 72 hole norm, they are all essentially the same correct?

 

Just seems like there should be another way to format things that is fresh and new, and potentially draws in a different demographic and yet still is legitimate competition.

Why not just combine this thread with the ball rollback thread?  That way you can bring in a different demographic by giving them a game that is similar but just doesn’t make them have to walk so darn far.  
Oh, and rank them with some vague criteria.

 

The OWGR were created to rank tournament players. By how they finished in those events.  They were not created to rank players in YouTube friendly hit and giggles.

 

For me this part of the LIV tour discussion thread is over.  They have dropped their so called quest for points so it’s no longer worth discussing.

 

Have a great weekend fellas!

[wedgegame]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

For me this part of the LIV tour discussion thread is over.  They have dropped their so called quest for points so it’s no longer worth discussing.

It won't stop them from whining about it unfortunately.

[freeze16172002]

18 minutes ago, lopey986 said:

Uh, the great Taint Gooch, obviously. 

 

The best golfers on all tours will be in the Masters field this year, LIV included. Maybe eventually we'll run into the issue where an actual top player is being left off because they are with LIV but it's going to be a couple years, most likely, before that happens.

Thats what I was getting at. All the rumbling against the ranking system but no one was hurt ? Gooch played in three last year a T34 and 2 MC's, nobody will miss him

[notsohard]

Much ado about nothing...LIV isn’t wanting OWGR. The scenarios you guys are coming up with is irrelevant. 

Anyone got a decent recipe for a moist tea cake?

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 hours ago, RCGA said:

I can't believe I'm defending LIV, but they sign the top 50 players, are you still defending the OWRG's arbitrary eligibility criteria? 

 

I understand the LIV hate (I'm one on them), but I don't understand the simping for the OWRG.  

 

Honestly, I don't care about OWGR. Outside of inclusion to the majors, the only thing OWGR is useful for is ego stroking. As far as I'm aware, they don't award money based on position in the ranking. A player who is #1 in OWGR doesn't get strokes on the competition in tournaments. Hell, current #1 hasn't won a tournament in 11 months. 

 

The people to whom the OWGR matters the most are the majors. Consequently, they are some of the key stakeholders controlling who does and does not get OWGR points. When the matter was raised and LIV applied, those stakeholders who might have conflicts of interest (Monahan/Pelley) recused themselves from the vote, giving the representatives of the 4 majors a controlling majority in the vote. And they voted "no". 

 

If the people to whom the OWGR matters most (the majors) want LIV players in the majors, they'll change the system. They own it, after all. It seems that they don't believe the LIV Tour is worthy of ranking as it doesn't meet the standards of being egalitarian and merit-based that all other tours meet. 

[Dave230]

LIV should not have launched if they could not get the world rankings points sorted, if that was that important to them. I don't know if a lot of the players are either wilful idiots or badly advised. Same with the Ryder Cup and other tour issues. They set up a tour outside of long-time structures and just expected arrogantly for everyone to move for them.

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, RCGA said:

I can't believe I'm defending LIV, but they sign the top 50 players, are you still defending the OWRG's arbitrary eligibility criteria? 

 

I understand the LIV hate (I'm one on them), but I don't understand the simping for the OWRG.  

That's not even close to accurate - nobody is "simping" for the OWGR, but people are describing its purpose and use accurately vs. using it as a straw man for painting LIV as a victim and so on.

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, ahenderX said:

Thanks. I misinterpreted the “least important major” many have as an opinion with it having a weaker field.

Haha, damn it with faint praise!  It's also received well-deserved attention for better venues.  It's a major - maybe least popular to many if it is ranked but still a major and therefore an extremely important competition in the history of golf and continues to be so.

[One Putter]

16 hours ago, Dave230 said:

LIV should not have launched if they could not get the world rankings points sorted, if that was that important to them. I don't know if a lot of the players are either wilful idiots or badly advised. Same with the Ryder Cup and other tour issues. They set up a tour outside of long-time structures and just expected arrogantly for everyone to move for them.

They tried to fix a problem that didn't exist and created a bunch more for everyone, including themselves.

[billyspan]

On 3/8/2024 at 7:16 AM, bscinstnct said:

 

LIV needs to use it’s resources to harvest all the data and present it ti the majors to make their case

 

They just spent 600MM on JR

 

You’d think they can spend a few measily millions on the analytics software and a team to make their case

 

Maybe that’s what they are going to do but they should have already done it

 LIV has ALREADY done that.  They made a bed with Sports Illustrated.  The SI World Golf Rankings exist. Unsure if so can link it. Some of the metrics are questionable (distance per shot).

 

Computer rankings will still have "feelings".  A human considers the weighting of the various inputs and what inputs/algorithms are even included.

 

Rankings are subjective.  Standings (results) are objective.

 

The Majors (and a few other orgs) have chosen to maintain and use the OWGR.

[CasualLie]

1 hour ago, billyspan said:

 LIV has ALREADY done that.  They made a bed with Sports Illustrated.  The SI World Golf Rankings exist. Unsure if so can link it. Some of the metrics are questionable (distance per shot).

 

Computer rankings will still have "feelings".  A human considers the weighting of the various inputs and what inputs/algorithms are even included.

 

Rankings are subjective.  Standings (results) are objective.

 

The Majors (and a few other orgs) have chosen to maintain and use the OWGR.

 

The same SI that got burned by using AI to write a ton of garbage? Same SI that the publishing company couldn't make licensing payments to the company that owns the SI brand thereby laying off 100 employees and darn near killing the brand?

 

Yep, that Saudi money sure is helping SI.

[notsohard]

Wydnam Clark wants the PGAT to resemble LlV now??

https://x.com/NUCLRGOLF/status/1766627286793527597?t=BzKW43of0UnKwohp4OL8pg&s=09

[dekez]

Why is Clark's caddie always buzzing around on the green?  It has bothered me since he was aligning his putts in the last Open.

[idrive]

Despite the proposed merger remaining up in the air, former Ryder Cup captain Stricker believes those playing on the LIV circuit are keen on a route back to the PGA Tour. "I know the guys, some of them on the LIV tour want to come back and play out on the regular Tour," he said at last week's Cologuard Classic. "I know that for a fact, and so it's kind of a wait-and-see game, especially for us out here."

 

Speaks volumes.

[stinger_gc]

The Hyflyers are hot garbage. Reports say many fans burning their Hyflyer capes and NFTs in the streets of Hong Kong this past week. Begs the question, is Phil on the hot seat? Hyflyers might not even get to 20 points at this pace

 

Edited March 11 by stinger_gc

[bcjim]

3 hours ago, idrive said:

Despite the proposed merger remaining up in the air, former Ryder Cup captain Stricker believes those playing on the LIV circuit are keen on a route back to the PGA Tour. "I know the guys, some of them on the LIV tour want to come back and play out on the regular Tour," he said at last week's Cologuard Classic. "I know that for a fact, and so it's kind of a wait-and-see game, especially for us out here."

 

Speaks volumes.

No doubt. They been paid, now they want out of the exhibition clown show that circumnavigates the globe and to back to playing meaningful events.  So, they can wait til their contracts expire (not long for some) and then requalify for the PGA Tour.

 

Did Phil relinquish his lifetime exemption? Or is that still good?

[lozbain]

On 3/8/2024 at 7:41 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Honestly, I don't care about OWGR. Outside of inclusion to the majors, the only thing OWGR is useful for is ego stroking. As far as I'm aware, they don't award money based on position in the ranking. A player who is #1 in OWGR doesn't get strokes on the competition in tournaments. Hell, current #1 hasn't won a tournament in 11 months. 

 

The people to whom the OWGR matters the most are the majors. Consequently, they are some of the key stakeholders controlling who does and does not get OWGR points. When the matter was raised and LIV applied, those stakeholders who might have conflicts of interest (Monahan/Pelley) recused themselves from the vote, giving the representatives of the 4 majors a controlling majority in the vote. And they voted "no". 

 

If the people to whom the OWGR matters most (the majors) want LIV players in the majors, they'll change the system. They own it, after all. It seems that they don't believe the LIV Tour is worthy of ranking as it doesn't meet the standards of being egalitarian and merit-based that all other tours meet. 

Depending on the sponsor they do get bonuses for OWGR points. Rahm complained about not being #1 once because he would have made more money from Callaway.

 

But again, that is what the up front money was for.

[smashdn]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:23 AM, Shilgy said:

Best answer I can come up with for your Premier League question at the end….

If you want the best players why are you filling it so restrictively?  Wouldn’t you want the best 54 regardless of where they play?

 

Thats probably my biggest issue with LIV getting points….or getting exemptions into majors….with a set number of players.  If they don’t allow churn of the bottom players-no matter who they are- how can you just give them X number of exemptions?

 

Sure that is probably what they want, but the other tours are blocking it.  It has become clear the players are not really free to play where they want (provided they have qualified to).

 

I think there should be churn at the bottom.  But to truly have a league and teams that matter, the churn would have to happen once per year.  I wouldn't have a problem with that but you would still run into situations where guys just don't have the game to stay in that upper echelon and would be dumped at the end of the season.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Sure that is probably what they want, but the other tours are blocking it.  It has become clear the players are not really free to play where they want (provided they have qualified to).

 

I think there should be churn at the bottom.  But to truly have a league and teams that matter, the churn would have to happen once per year.  I wouldn't have a problem with that but you would still run into situations where guys just don't have the game to stay in that upper echelon and would be dumped at the end of the season.

And with LIV it’s dumped at the end of four years.  Yeah, that seems better. /s 

😏

[smashdn]

16 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

And with LIV it’s dumped at the end of four years.  Yeah, that seems better. /s 

😏

 

I didn't say that they had it right.  I can see what they are/were trying to do (from the competition on the course standpoint).  I am not saying it is working currently.  But I can see where it could if tweaks are made.

 

What if they were all one year contracts with a stipulation that each player must also play in a minimum of six other competitions world wide in addition to LIV?  With 54 players maybe the bottom 14 are relegated.  Top 4 finishers get a two year exemption/contract.  Middle 36 make it to the next year.  I don't know what percentages that works out to but would think it similar to PGAT between guys losing cards, keeping cards and those at the top who win and/or have lifetime exemptions.  Teams play no part in exemptions.

 

Just spit-balling. 

[King_Slender]

16 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I didn't say that they had it right.  I can see what they are/were trying to do (from the competition on the course standpoint).  I am not saying it is working currently.  But I can see where it could if tweaks are made.

 

What if they were all one year contracts with a stipulation that each player must also play in a minimum of six other competitions world wide in addition to LIV?  With 54 players maybe the bottom 14 are relegated.  Top 4 finishers get a two year exemption/contract.  Middle 36 make it to the next year.  I don't know what percentages that works out to but would think it similar to PGAT between guys losing cards, keeping cards and those at the top who win and/or have lifetime exemptions.  Teams play no part in exemptions.

 

Just spit-balling. 

 

I've been mulling over how to make a LIV/PGA crossover work and the best I can come up with is something like this:

 

1) LIV schedule drops back to 12 events (was that the original intent before they increased to 14). PGA is give 2 teams to fill every week.

2) PGA Tour Keeps their 8 signature events and 3 weeks of playoffs - LIV players are given 10 spots in those fields

3) All other events are open to PGA Tour pros as well as a defined number of LIV players to strengthen the field

4) Sentry Tournament of Champions includes all PGA and LIV winners

 

[SnowbirdTom]

Cypher/spitball/plead to get the LIV players access to the real golf tour, but crossover ain’t gonna happen. If they ever come back, it’ll be after their contracts expire and they requalify for the big game.

[pingbling23]

I think it’s safe to say there is a higher percentage of pga tour players that would want to play LIV events vs LIV players wanting to play pga tour events.  And I think we can all agree the majority of players want to be able to play wherever they want, whenever they want.  The only thing that has held the flood gate closed is players that don’t have automatic access to the majors.

[NormanFan]

PIF also making a play for tennis.  Can't wait till they try to invade the "big" American sports like NFL, NBA, and MLB.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, King_Slender said:

 

I've been mulling over how to make a LIV/PGA crossover work and the best I can come up with is something like this:

 

1) LIV schedule drops back to 12 events (was that the original intent before they increased to 14). PGA is give 2 teams to fill every week.

2) PGA Tour Keeps their 8 signature events and 3 weeks of playoffs - LIV players are given 10 spots in those fields

3) All other events are open to PGA Tour pros as well as a defined number of LIV players to strengthen the field

4) Sentry Tournament of Champions includes all PGA and LIV winners

 

So everyone else has to qualify for the signature events but LIVis given ten exemptions because they used to be great/good? No thanks

 

Your idea is heavily tilted towards favoring the LIV players that broke their contracts.

[King_Slender]

1 hour ago, SnowbirdTom said:

Cypher/spitball/plead to get the LIV players access to the real golf tour, but crossover ain’t gonna happen. If they ever come back, it’ll be after their contracts expire and they requalify for the big game.

 

Literally EVERYTHING Jay Monahan outlined where the PGA Tour is going/needs to improve is exactly what LIV is doing/trying:

 

-Show more shots on TV (LIV does this)

-Better app for fans to use (LIV does this)

-More money for top players (LIV gives them money, PGA makes them dance for social media engagement)

-Limited fields (LIV does this, PGA put in Premium events)

-Bigger purses (LIV forced PGA to negotiate bigger purses for premium events)

-Different formats with Match play, LPGA team events (LIV has a team event every week)

 

Golf is better when the PGA Tour gives players on other tours (which they've ALWAYS done) the ability to play some of their events.  It only hurts you as a fan. 

[NormanFan]

6 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Literally EVERYTHING Jay Monahan outlined where the PGA Tour is going/needs to improve is exactly what LIV is doing/trying:

 

-Show more shots on TV (LIV does this)

-Better app for fans to use (LIV does this)

-More money for top players (LIV gives them money, PGA makes them dance for social media engagement)

-Limited fields (LIV does this, PGA put in Premium events)

-Bigger purses (LIV forced PGA to negotiate bigger purses for premium events)

-Different formats with Match play, LPGA team events (LIV has a team event every week)

 

Golf is better when the PGA Tour gives players on other tours (which they've ALWAYS done) the ability to play some of their events.  It only hurts you as a fan. 

 

So any PGA guys can just hop over and play the LIV events, just like they would a Euro tour event or Asian tour event, right?  Oh wait....

[Titleist99]

10 minutes ago, King_Slender said:

 

Literally EVERYTHING Jay Monahan outlined where the PGA Tour is going/needs to improve is exactly what LIV is doing/trying:

 

-Show more shots on TV (LIV does this)

-Better app for fans to use (LIV does this)

-More money for top players (LIV gives them money, PGA makes them dance for social media engagement)

-Limited fields (LIV does this, PGA put in Premium events)

-Bigger purses (LIV forced PGA to negotiate bigger purses for premium events)

-Different formats with Match play, LPGA team events (LIV has a team event every week)

 

Golf is better when the PGA Tour gives players on other tours (which they've ALWAYS done) the ability to play some of their events.  It only hurts you as a fan. 

Uh, one question. If LIV is the leader in moving the game forward....do they have any paying media deals for team golf?