LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[JungleJimbo]

22 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

I think the rule is you can film at a PGAT event but you can film a player.

 

 

 

 

 

[stinger_gc]

25 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

The SSG deal was for an investment of up to $3B, it was never an investment of $3B. The first tranche was used exclusively to retain players via illiquid equity. If there is one, I would assume the second tranche will be used to improve the product and drive ROI. While I believe TV ratings are down 20% on average, I haven't heard of a corresponding revenue drop. SSG will certainly spring into action, likely with expense reduction, if their ROI is threatened. Nothing has occurred to date so things might be better than the general public thinks. 

 

I do think it's inevitable that more players will join LIV. Guys like Clark, Finau, and Horschel would've left already had LIV met their number. I believe the PGAT has asked LIV for $3B. LIV could simply plow that money into player contracts, marketing, media etc., and roll the dice they get that thing humming. My gut tells me we'll end up with a single tour again...just not certain which one. 

I still don’t think LIV is the end game for the PIF. It’s a crappy product per tv ratings and outside of the Adelaide every event is forgettable. Also outside of Tiger and maybe Rory, these guys are replaceable.  The Sunday tv ratings for the masters weren’t that high but Th/Fri were the highest rated broadcast in years.

Edited May 14 by stinger_gc

[Archimedes65]

3 hours ago, CDM said:

Not really surprising, expected it earlier.  When they said he would not be part of the talks last June I wonderd if he was to "close" to the PIF or something else but if he was not in the discussion why be there?  I expected hm to resign at the end of last year honestly. 

 

The players are going to drive this into the ground and it will only get worse.  Sad to say as the PIF, more so Yasir comments have been pretty clear lately they plan on going no where.

 

It will only drive more divide with the players on the PGAT as it has already been noted by PGAT staff / leadership stating they can not compete with PIF on the money side, let alone continue with what they setup they put in place revenue wise.  *Can not continue to do spend what they are.   

 

Loosing 3 top sponsors and a fourth now upset and yet no one can see the issue they are fighting. 

 

The SSG is investment I hoped would be great, even Jay noting it was done with the intent of PIF being part of it all,  but it will only be a band aid if the players do not stop letting emotion drive this.   

 

I would bet a few "certain" players want to be paid if deal is done and sure it is not a small number.  Thing is you know PIF is sittting there thinking.... nevermind we will just use it to sign more players. 

 

Who says LIV could not go to 72 holes?  Use the Asian Tour or other tour association as way to qualify for LIV.  They could open events up to a percentage of people to qualify.   

 

I know that fully goes against what they setup (54) but they could do it. would legitmize the structure.... get OWGR points which is really all that is holding them back (so to speak) over the Majors.   There would be nothing stopping them at that point. 

 

 😂  The tour with 20% of the top talent, zero big sponsors, no real TV contract, no tradition/history and crappy venues is the Big Bad that’s going to destroy the tour that has 80% of the top talent, a long list of big name sponsors, a major network TV contract, basically their own TV network, the best venues in the U.S. locked up, and the biggest names in the history of golf (Woods and Nicklaus) supporting it…. 😂

 

LIV won’t destroy the Tour.  The best they’re gonna do is keep burning money adding little bits of talent here and there, damaging the overall game a bit in the process.  Arena football and the UFL coexist with the NFL.  I think the PGA Tour can survive LIV.  Unless of course Norman unleashes the Better Majors that he’s working on. Then the Tour’s f*****.

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

The SSG deal was for an investment of up to $3B, it was never an investment of $3B. The first tranche was used exclusively to retain players via illiquid equity. If there is one, I would assume the second tranche will be used to improve the product and drive ROI. While I believe TV ratings are down 20% on average, I haven't heard of a corresponding revenue drop. SSG will certainly spring into action, likely with expense reduction, if their ROI is threatened. Nothing has occurred to date so things might be better than the general public thinks. 

 

I do think it's inevitable that more players will join LIV. Guys like Clark, Finau, and Horschel would've left already had LIV met their number. I believe the PGAT has asked LIV for $3B. LIV could simply plow that money into player contracts, marketing, media etc., and roll the dice they get that thing humming. My gut tells me we'll end up with a single tour again...just not certain which one. 

How profound! 
Guys like Clark, Finau, and Horschel would've left already had LIV met their number.

 

Of course they would…just like Rahm did when they upped the deal high enough they took the money. And who wouldn’t?  Except for perhaps Tiger and Rory what players have enough to be able to look wife and family in the eye and turn down hundreds of millions?

 

But what happens at the end of next year? The first wave will have their contract up and will want to get another big deal to stay. Will the PIF continue to prop this thing up forever?
 They may have enough cash to as you and others like to point out but they only have so much face to save.  Do they want to look like good businessmen and dump LIV or have that fiasco added to the apparent NEOM fiasco?

[Cactus Jack]

1 hour ago, stinger_gc said:

I still don’t think LIV is the end game for the PIF. It’s a crappy product per tv ratings and outside of the Adelaide every event is forgettable. Also outside of Tiger and maybe Rory, these guys are replaceable.  The Sunday tv ratings for the masters weren’t that high but Th/Fri were the highest rated broadcast in years.

Th/Fri were the highest in years…with Bryson in the lead. Maybe there are a few stars that move the needle when in contention. 

Edited May 14 by Cactus Jack

[stinger_gc]

1 minute ago, Cactus Jack said:

Th/Fri were the highest in years…with Bryson in the lead. Maybe there are a few stars that move the needle when in contention. 

 Tiger playing was the biggest reason for the bump. 

[drn92]

26 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

How profound! 
Guys like Clark, Finau, and Horschel would've left already had LIV met their number.

 

Of course they would…just like Rahm did when they upped the deal high enough they took the money. And who wouldn’t?  Except for perhaps Tiger and Rory what players have enough to be able to look wife and family in the eye and turn down hundreds of millions?

 

But what happens at the end of next year? The first wave will have their contract up and will want to get another big deal to stay. Will the PIF continue to prop this thing up forever?
 They may have enough cash to as you and others like to point out but they only have so much face to save.  Do they want to look like good businessmen and dump LIV or have that fiasco added to the apparent NEOM fiasco?

Why does LIV need to pony up big for contract renewals. Unless things change, the LIV players are not going to get starts on the PGA unless they get sponsor exemptions. I thought there were suspended for a period of time and I’m sure the remaining PGA players would not be excited with them coming back with no repercussions. 
 

drn92

[Cactus Jack]

23 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

How profound! 
Guys like Clark, Finau, and Horschel would've left already had LIV met their number.

 

Of course they would…just like Rahm did when they upped the deal high enough they took the money. And who wouldn’t?  Except for perhaps Tiger and Rory what players have enough to be able to look wife and family in the eye and turn down hundreds of millions?

 

But what happens at the end of next year? The first wave will have their contract up and will want to get another big deal to stay. Will the PIF continue to prop this thing up forever?
 They may have enough cash to as you and others like to point out but they only have so much face to save.  Do they want to look like good businessmen and dump LIV or have that fiasco added to the apparent NEOM fiasco?

I should have said, Clark, Finau, and Horschel wanted to go, but LIV didn’t want them based on their self proclaimed value. 
 

The next round of contracts is likely make or break for LIV. I think Mickleson takes a non-playing role, and the likes of Poulter, Westwood, and Na are gone. Brooks, Bryson, DJ etc, will get paid as well, if not better, than their first deal. DJ might walk away and retire. Many others will walk freeing up a lot of cash to sign more big names. I don’t see a scenario where the spending stops. 

[Shilgy]

12 minutes ago, Cactus Jack said:

I should have said, Clark, Finau, and Horschel wanted to go, but LIV didn’t want them based on their self proclaimed value. 
 

The next round of contracts is likely make or break for LIV. I think Mickleson takes a non-playing role, and the likes of Poulter, Westwood, and Na are gone. Brooks, Bryson, DJ etc, will get paid as well, if not better, than their first deal. DJ might walk away and retire. Many others will walk freeing up a lot of cash to sign more big names. I don’t see a scenario where the spending stops. 

So you expect the PIF will just continue to dump billions with, essentially, ZERO return?

 

Why?

16 minutes ago, drn92 said:

Why does LIV need to pony up big for contract renewals. Unless things change, the LIV players are not going to get starts on the PGA unless they get sponsor exemptions. I thought there were suspended for a period of time and I’m sure the remaining PGA players would not be excited with them coming back with no repercussions. 
 

drn92

I would expect they will need to get paid in a big way for extensions for the same reason they paid Rahm such a silly money amount.  Just the threat of not staying will force them to pay IF they wish to have LIV continue.

[JungleJimbo]

6 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

Whoa...Jimmy Dunne resigns. Players outnumber independent directors, making his role superfluous. 

 

https://www.si.com/golf/jimmy-dunne-resigns-from-pga-tour-board

 

 

Some interesting counterpoints on reddit.

 

 

 

 

[idrive]

1 hour ago, Cactus Jack said:

I should have said, Clark, Finau, and Horschel wanted to go, but LIV didn’t want them based on their self proclaimed value. 
 

 Wrong.

 

Finau wouldn't have signed at any price. He rejected their offer. He will never sign with liv = Morals.

Clark turned them down as well. He said his legacy and the money is what he plays for. There is no legacy with the exhibition tour.

Horschel would have signed but his asking price was well above what liv wanted to pay.

[notsohard]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

 Wrong.

 

Finau wouldn't have signed at any price. He rejected their offer. He will never sign with liv = Morals.

Clark turned them down as well. He said his legacy and the money is what he plays for. There is no legacy with the exhibition tour.

Horschel would have signed but his asking price was well above what liv wanted to pay.

-Finau spoke with his wife and the issue for him was leaving the country while his family is young..morals had nothing to do with it.

-Clark, correct.

-Horschel quietly regrets not taking the offer LIV threw at him. But he has been collecting some $$ since as his form has improved on the PGAT.

Edited May 14 by notsohard

[freeze16172002]

7 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

I should have said, Clark, Finau, and Horschel wanted to go, but LIV didn’t want them based on their self proclaimed value. 
 

The next round of contracts is likely make or break for LIV. I think Mickleson takes a non-playing role, and the likes of Poulter, Westwood, and Na are gone. Brooks, Bryson, DJ etc, will get paid as well, if not better, than their first deal. DJ might walk away and retire. Many others will walk freeing up a lot of cash to sign more big names. I don’t see a scenario where the spending stops. 

You would resign DJ and for more than the previous contract. I would be counting the days to cut him loose. I could sign 10 kids out of college for the same price. LIV got zero returns on signing any major winning player, why keep going that route

Edited May 14 by freeze16172002

[idrive]

4 hours ago, notsohard said:

-Finau spoke with his wife and the issue for him was leaving the country while his family is young..morals had nothing to do with it.

 

 

That might have been the official liv assessment as they don't want to own that part of their problem but is not the main reason.

 

As I stated - Morals. I'm not going to name the family Tony is very tight with that was consulted...

[Hawkeye77]

Kind of interesting once again that an announcement LIV would seemingly want to have made is put out there just before a major —- Dunne a little too tight with Mr. PIF —- good riddance. 

[Danielson]

14 hours ago, beluga99 said:

Thanks for trying Jimmy.  Fortunately the negotiations are in safe hands with Tiger, Patty Ice and Jordan.  I think Webb might be in there still.  Or did he try to resign and give his spot on the board to Rory, which was then blocked?  I need to keep up.

 

My dream is to see a Q&A panel with all members of the PGA Board involved in the "negotiations", with journalists and writers who aren't afraid of asking searching questions.  It would be amazing.  Jay would sit in the middle, and Tiger would be on one side, and Patty Ice on the other side.  The rules are they can't leave, can't say "no comment" and can't confer with each other.  I would pay good money to see it.

 

It would certainly give us a terrific insight into where "negotiations" are actually at, and the actual state of the PGA Tour.  It may also reveal a lot about the current state of the PGA leadership.

 

It will never ever make sense to me that Patrick Cantlay is some sort of PGA Tour power broker now. Unexplainable.

[Shilgy]

20 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

 

Some interesting counterpoints on reddit.

 

 

 

 

I think the reply in your copy paste about Dunne is closer to the truth than what was said in the first post.

 

 

 

Edited May 15 by Shilgy

[notsohard]

"Framework agreement" does not happen..lawsuit is back on the cards.

[Hawkeye77]

47 minutes ago, notsohard said:

"Framework agreement" does not happen..lawsuit is back on the cards.

Pretty sure the lawsuits were dismissed with prejudice and release agreements were executed so I think it is doubtful any new litigation is happening unless something new has been done to cause one and don't think that is the case.

[idrive]

“I’m not going to lie; for everybody who said this would be easy, some things have been, but not being able to defend some titles that mean a lot to me hasn’t,” Rahm said in March. “I love Palm Springs. I’ve been able to win twice there. Riviera is about as charismatic of a golf course as we have. It’s definitely a week that it’s fantastic for a lot of us, and it’s a fan and player favorite. Not being there was difficult. I still watched the broadcast. I still watch golf because I love watching it. But it’s hard.”

Rahm ranks second in the LIV Golf individual standings but is yet to win an event. His Legion XIII team has two victories.

Earlier on Tuesday, Tiger Woods described talks between the PGA Tour and PIF as having a “long way to go.”

“I think there’s a way of coexisting,” Rahm said before the Players Championship. “And if there’s some type of union, I don’t know what that looks like, but…I just want to be able to see the best in the world compete against the best in the world, whatever that looks like.

“I hope I get to tee it up at The Players again.”

 

Sounds to me like JR has some remorse.  I'd go as far as to say he'd do it differently if he could do it all over.

 

In regard to the lawsuits... I have a hard time believing Big Al wants to see a court room anytime soon. While money isn't an issue with the pif I can't believe they want to be dragged into an American court room either. I also believe it would make live/pif even that more disliked... if that's even possible.

 

The PGAT doesn't want to go to court for no other reasons than the stupid amount of money spent.

 

Just keeps getting uglier and uglier.  Thanks Greg and Phil.

[Holy Moses]

LIV and the PIF behind the scenes have to be so mad at Rahm and his continued public  love for the PGA Tour. Rahm was lied to by Norman telling him a merger was imminent. It’s not and Rahm is stuck and regrets it. “I feel like a PGA Tour player,” but you’re not Jon because as Brandel says, “Feel is not real.” 
 

Money can buy unhappiness. 

Edited May 14 by Holy Moses

[tomjas]

Rahm hasn’t won yet and is frustrated 

 

You only need to watch LIV to know that 

[Shilgy]

56 minutes ago, tomjas said:

Rahm hasn’t won yet and is frustrated 

 

You only need to watch LIV to know that 

And that’s why he misses the PGA Tour? 🤣

[idrive]

Golf Central analyst Arron Oberholser had some strong words for Jon Rahm ahead of this week’s PGA Championship. 

 

"As a PGA Tour player and as a PGA Tour member, still a card-carrying PGA Tour member and someone who supports the PGA Tour, [I’m] not happy with what’s going on right now obviously, I’m incensed by the level of naivety. […] You’re going to sit there and tell me you still feel like a PGA Tour member, I want to support the PGA Tour... I wanted to wring his neck through the television. I’m that mad right now. I’m that mad.”

 

I'd be willing to bet other PGAT members feel the same way about JR.

 

IMO, JR's frustration comes from potentially, finally realizing the Norman basically fibbed to him telling him a merger/deal, was close/imminent.  Obviously, it's not and wasn't.  Imagine, Greg telling fibs to entice a player on top of a boatload of money.

[Archimedes65]

3 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Pretty sure the lawsuits were dismissed with prejudice and release agreements were executed so I think it is doubtful any new litigation is happening unless something new has been done to cause one and don't think that is the case.

 

This.  Neither party can refile suit with the claims that were dismissed.  There would have to be entirely new grounds for suit, of which there aren’t any.

 

The PGA Tour just needs to call LIV’s and the LIV Player’s bluff and say ‘best of luck’ and move on.  Make all those guys fulfill their contracts to play meaningless golf tournaments on crappy golf courses that require them to spend 13 hours on a plane to get to for the next 3-5 years, all while getting no OWR points and having to either qualify or play the Asian tour to gain access to the Majors.  And make LIV keep writing big checks for zero return on their investment.

 

Imagine them coming home from one of their sparsely attended exhibition golf tournament and weenie roast and seeing a PGA Tour event like last weekend’s Wells Fargo Classic at an iconic course, with huge crowds, cheering on some of the biggest names in golf.  I’d let them stew on that for a few years while people forget they were even once golfers.

Edited May 15 by Archimedes65

[Hawkeye77]

17 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

This.  Neither party can refile suit with the claims that were dismissed.  There would have to be entirely new grounds for suit, of which there aren’t any.

 

The PGA Tour just needs to call LIV’s and the LIV Player’s bluff and say ‘best of luck’ and move on.  Make all those guys fulfill their contracts to play meaningless golf tournaments in crappy golf courses that require them to spend 13 hours on a plane to get to for the next 3-5 years, all while getting no OWR points and having to either qualify or play the Asian tour to gain access to the Majors.  Make LIV keep writing big checks for zero return on their investment.

Totally agree, you don't let them basically buy the Tour and then wait and see what happens.  Can't just let 'em in in the big way Dunne was selling.

 

And to the stuff further above about Rahm being conflicted and so forth ---- he made his bed, now he's simply whining looking for sympathy after pocketing $500 plus million ---- he's not sad, he wouldn't do it differently and if he thought his move would "bring people together" it was only in an "I'm so big I'm going to deal a big blow to the Tour" ego driven way.  Come on people!

 

Don't be taken in --- he completely wants it both ways now that he's got . . . . over $500 million, over $500 million. 

Edited May 15 by Hawkeye77

[bekgolf]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Totally agree, you don't let them basically buy the Tour and then wait and see what happens.  Can't just let 'em in in the big way Dunne was selling.

 

And to the stuff further above about Rahm being conflicted and so forth ---- he made his bed, now he's simply whining looking for sympathy after pocketing $500 plus million ---- he's not sad, he wouldn't do it differently and if he thought his move would "bring people together" it was only in an "I'm so big I'm going to deal a big blow to the Tour" ego driven way.  Come on people!

 

Don't be taken in --- he completely wants it both ways now that he's got . . . . over $500 million, over $500 million. 

 

I have zero interest in seeing any of the players who went over.  It's sad because I really liked following Bryson and Rahm on tour.  The were two fantastic golfers with a lot of personality involved in their games. 

 

The Liv guys left their fans on the PGA Tour.  Did they really think that people would follow them over to Liv just because we liked seeing them on tour?  It's a significant miscalculation by all involved. 

 

It's so sad that this happened to professional golf.

[Archimedes65]

Todd Lewis said tonight that he spoke to Tiger today and asked whether there was a sense of urgency, and Tiger said ‘We’re not going to do a deal, just to do a deal.”

 

There clearly isn’t even a framework of a deal in place at this point.  The whole announcement of a ‘framework agreement’ and the original deadline of 12/31/23 really seems bush league at this point.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, Archimedes65 said:

Todd Lewis said tonight that he spoke to Tiger today and asked whether there was a sense of urgency, and Tiger said ‘We’re not going to do a deal, just to do a deal.”

 

There clearly isn’t even a framework of a deal in place at this point.  The whole announcement of a ‘framework agreement’ and the original deadline of 12/31/23 really seems bush league at this point.

 

It was Jimmy selling a used car.  "Better hurry up, lots of interest in this 2000 Saturn".

[redfirebird08]

Anyone see Scheffler’s comments? That is the most outspoken he has been on the topic until now. Wonder how many others on Tour have a similar feeling about not flying overseas with young children at home. 
 

"I think the PGA Tour has always been the best place to play and that's where all the eyes are," world No. 1 golfer Scottie Scheffler told ESPN. "We tried a little bit of the world tour stuff with tournaments in China, Korea and stuff like that, and they hadn't really worked out.”

 

Scheffler continued, "It's just what you're used to, and I think that's where we always go back to -- just being comfortable. Eight to 10 times [outside the U.S.] would be a lot just based on traveling and our bodies. I think that's a big ask, especially with people having families. The guys that come over from Europe and they play over here, they usually come over in stretches."