Opinions on posting "combined " 9 hole scores ?

[J2putts]

Just curious as to how other people feel about it ? To me .. posting 9 hole/combined rounds, really isn't an accurate gauge on someone's true skill level.  Playing great for 9 holes is a lot easier , than putting 18 holes together.  Also ...you're playing in different green/weather conditions , from one 9 hole round , to the next ..that could be days/weeks later.  I've never shot under par for 18 holes .. but I've shot as low as 4 under,  for 9 holes.  I could be posting "combined " scores that would get me probably close to scratch. The lowest I've been is 1.9 last year . I get that if EVERYONE posted combined 9 hole scores.. it wouldn't matter,  but I feel like majority of people don't,  myself included ...unless I'm playing 9 hole matches in tournament play 

Edited March 19, 2023 by J2putts
Added more info

[Bonneville85308]

Personally, I won't post a 9 hole score unless I know I'm going to be playing and posting another nine on the same course within the next couple days under similar conditions, such that those two nines get combined. I think it gets hokey if a score from some 9 hole course I played in New York in cold wet April conditions gets combined with a 9 hole round I played in hot dry Arizona conditions 3 months later.

[ezpz]

Your handicap is a representation of how you got it. This wouldnt even be the most egregious thing I've seen but if people post scores like this and expect their handicap to hold up in 18 hole ++ tournaments or travel well to other courses then they will be in for a rough time.

[mizuno player]

Well, it is required to post all acceptable scores. If you play 9 and it's acceptable post it. It can in my opinion give someone a lower handicap if enough combined scores are posted. However, I feel it all evens out. 

[Hawkeye77]

OP, if you aren’t posting rounds as required and your handicap if you did would be markedly lower you are a sandbagger looking for excuses to justify it.

 

I doubt anyone would “feel” that was okay - except apparently you. 
 

 

[J2putts]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

OP, if you aren’t posting rounds as required and your handicap if you did would be markedly lower you are a sandbagger looking for excuses to justify it.

 

I doubt anyone would “feel” that was okay - except apparently you. 
 

 

Well ,fortunately I have only played gross /stroke play tournaments over the last 2 years .. so I'll somehow manage to sleep at night.  Majority of people I've posed this question to "feel" the same way I do . The true measure of someone's ability is revealed over 18 consecutive holes ! Not 9 holes at a time ...days apart...under different conditions...

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, J2putts said:

Well ,fortunately I have only played gross /stroke play tournaments over the last 2 years .. so I'll somehow manage to sleep at night.  Majority of people I've posed this question to "feel" the same way I do . The true measure of someone's ability is revealed over 18 consecutive holes ! Not 9 holes at a time ...days apart...under different conditions...

The situational ethics of folks never cease to amaze me - if you aren’t going to post scores in accordance with the rules then don’t profess to have a handicap. The 18 holes “true measure” stuff is hogwash. 

[J2putts]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

The situational ethics of folks never cease to amaze me - if you aren’t going to post scores in accordance with the rules then don’t profess to have a handicap. The 18 holes “true measure” stuff is hogwash. 

Yeah , ya got me ! The guy giving 6 shots to the "I'm a 10 handicaps" that proceed to shoot 78 , is unethical because I think posting a combined 72 , two weeks apart , is b.s.  GUILTY 

[bill.ig]

Here are two pages from the USGA:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/whs-articles/only-time-for-nine-you-can-still-post-your-score-21474870775.html

This is from the Rules of Handicapping:

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

See section 2.2 which talks about minimum number of holes and refers specifically to 9 holes. Section 2.1 specifically lists some examples when you shouldn’t post (e.g., when being coached). Nine holes doesn’t appear on the list of examples.

 

I post my 9 hole scores when played in season.

 

 

[TroyB123]

7 hours ago, J2putts said:

Just curious as to how other people feel about it ? To me .. posting 9 hole/combined rounds, really isn't an accurate gauge on someone's true skill level.  Playing great for 9 holes is a lot easier , than putting 18 holes together.  Also ...you're playing in different green/weather conditions , from one 9 hole round , to the next ..that could be days/weeks later.  I've never shot under par for 18 holes .. but I've shot as low as 4 under,  for 9 holes.  I could be posting "combined " scores that would get me probably close to scratch. The lowest I've been is 1.9 last year . I get that if EVERYONE posted combined 9 hole scores.. it wouldn't matter,  but I feel like majority of people don't,  myself included ...unless I'm playing 9 hole matches in tournament play 

I'm confused at your point here.  If you post only your good nines and then wait for another good nine to improve your handicap, then year you are probably overselling your vanity handicap.   In reality, you should be posting any round you plan on playing by the rules and that would likely blend some 45s and 35s.   

 

18 holes also afford you the ability come back from a bad front nine, so while it is easier to shoot a great 9, it is also easier to shoot a crap 9.   Only combining good nines or bad nines as you see fit isn't keeping in line with the spirit of handicaps.   Posting all nines is.  Plenty of golfers of all skill level play far more nines than 18s depending on work/family, and should be just as valid measure of skill if you are not manipulating them to only include good or bad nines.

[Augster]

What you “feel” is irrelevant. What others in your circle “feel” is also irrelevant. 
 

If you don’t post postable 9’s, you’re a sandbagger. It’s simple. You’re either a handicap cheat, or you aren’t. 
 

If you “feel” so deeply the USGA should see it your way, start a grassroots movement to get nine hole rounds removed from posting. It can be done with enough of an uprising. 
 

In the meantime, while waiting for the changes to occur, post your scores. 
 

You’re either a handicap cheat, or you aren’t. “Ain’t no such thing as half-way crooks.”

[AzRoger]

15 hours ago, J2putts said:

Just curious as to how other people feel about it ? To me .. posting 9 hole/combined rounds, really isn't an accurate gauge on someone's true skill level.  Playing great for 9 holes is a lot easier , than putting 18 holes together.  Also ...you're playing in different green/weather conditions , from one 9 hole round , to the next ..that could be days/weeks later.  I've never shot under par for 18 holes .. but I've shot as low as 4 under,  for 9 holes.  

I would take the opposite view, I more often play better on the back nice when playing 18 holes, certainly don't find playing just 9 holes 'a lot easier'. The handicap system now uses PCC to compensate for unusual weather and playing conditions, I believe that includes 9 holes. You carry a 1.9 handicap and never shot under par? That is unusual.

[J2putts]

4 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

I would take the opposite view, I more often play better on the back nice when playing 18 holes, certainly don't find playing just 9 holes 'a lot easier'. The handicap system now uses PCC to compensate for unusual weather and playing conditions, I believe that includes 9 holes. You carry a 1.9 handicap and never shot under par? That is unusual.

The lowest I got to is 1.9 ... my home course is a tight , par 70 , Ross , small fast greens . Playing "scratch " there , means you're shooting 2 over . So ...it's not "unusual" at all . The PCC doesn't come in to play in the scenario I mentioned.  If you're playing 9 holes in April , up north , and it's 45 degrees , sunny and blowing 15 mph , there isn't going be a PCC adjustment.  I find the insinuation that I'm sandbagging to be comical.  I have plenty of tournament scores...and I play to my number.  The lowest tournament score I posted last year , not at my home course was 71 ..AND that was canceled after 14 holes due to weather,  and I took the remaining 4 hole, equitable strokes . The lowest I shot at my home course in competition last year was 74 . So there's no "sandbagging " going on , far from it !  90% of the 9 hole rounds I play are by myself anyway,  and therefore,  unpostable.  It was a question posed ...as to the true ability of a player to shoot those combined scores ..over 18 consecutive holes . The outrage is hilarious....

[davep043]

16 hours ago, J2putts said:

Just curious as to how other people feel about it ? 

 

16 hours ago, Bonneville85308 said:

Personally, I won't post a 9 hole score unless I know I'm going to be playing and posting another nine on the same course within the next couple days under similar conditions, such that those two nines get combined. 

I have a simple word for every player who understands the rules regarding posting scores, and consciously chooses not to follow them.  Its the same word I use for people who know the rules of golf, and chooses not to follow them.  Either way, its cheating.  

[naval2006]

I think after the WGH rules in 2019 stating the particular ways in which you can post a score is the main issue.  I agree that 9 hole rounds are not a good representation of a player's skill, but the powers that be don't seem to care.  However, in real life we come across all these different attitudes towards 9 holers, rounds without a marker, rounds with a lot of gimmies.  This is all way more incosistent than the old only scores posted in competition procedure.  

 

 

[J2putts]

23 minutes ago, davep043 said:

 

I have a simple word for every player who understands the rules regarding posting scores, and consciously chooses not to follow them.  Its the same word I use for people who know the rules of golf, and chooses not to follow them.  Either way, its cheating.  

So when you're playing a leisure round of golf with your buddies,  and you can't find your tee shot . You're the guy that goes back to the tee. .and re tee's EVERY time? Unless you are , unless you putt out every putt , every time ... you are cheating as well . But based off your previous comments ..you seem to be the beacon of golf integrity.  So I'm assuming you've NEVER done any of that , ever . 

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, J2putts said:

Unless you are , unless you putt out every putt , every time ... you are cheating as well

Actually, you're wrong.  If you play in accordance with Model Local Rules, even if that rule isn't in effect, you can generally post your score.  If you don't finish a hole, you can still post your score.  If you don't play all 18 holes, but play at least 14 (or at least 7 for a 9-hole score), you can still post your score.  And by "can post", I really mean you are "required to post" if you're in the USGA areas, and you're playing an approved format with at least one other person present.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, J2putts said:

So when you're playing a leisure round of golf with your buddies,  and you can't find your tee shot . You're the guy that goes back to the tee. .and re tee's EVERY time? Unless you are , unless you putt out every putt , every time ... you are cheating as well . But based off your previous comments ..you seem to be the beacon of golf integrity.  So I'm assuming you've NEVER done any of that , ever . 

Of all the folks in the rules forum @davep043 is one of the many whose integrity most would assume is without question. And your silly finger pointing response just further demonstrates you don’t really know the ROG.

 

Try learning them and putting them into practice (and don’t take shots at people who do, IMO).  Even kids starting out find the rules fun to learn and the golf experience more rewarding when played by rules. Maybe it’s a minority of golfers, but nothing wrong with it. 

[davep043]

Edit, the following is incorrect, see @Newby's post for the correct information.

Just for information, 9-hoole scores aren't handled identically all over the world.  For instance, in England a 9-hole score is doubled and included in your scoring record.  For the OP, he might indeed have a substantially lower handicap if his occasional 4-under 9-hole scores were included in the system as 8-under 18-hole scores.  

Edited March 20, 2023 by davep043

[Newby]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Just for information, 9-hoole scores aren't handled identically all over the world.  For instance, in England a 9-hole score is doubled and included in your scoring record.  For the OP, he might indeed have a substantially lower handicap if his occasional 4-under 9-hole scores were included in the system as 8-under 18-hole scores.  

I'm afraid that is no longer the case. It was the situation prior to WHS.

In the CONGU area (ie GB&I) the following applies

 

5.1b For a 9-hole Score
A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential for immediate use in the scoring record.

*  A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential by adding net pars for the remaining holes plus one additional stroke

(which is applied to the first hole not played), or 17 points in Stableford format.
* The second 9 holes used for scaling up is always the same 9 holes that have been played.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Newby

[Bigarch]

This is the biggest misconception about golf handicaps.  It's meant to be a reflection of your ability and what you are capable of. That's why it only counts the best scores which makes it more fair for everyone.  It's not a bowling average where there is a bar set for what you should score every game.  If you want and have a USGA handicap, then play and post by the rules.  If you don't, then don't.  If you are playing golf, you play by all the rules.  Otherwise, it's just a game you like to call "golf".

[davep043]

4 minutes ago, Newby said:

I'm afraid that is not the case.

In the CONGU area (ie GB&I) the following applies

 

5.1b For a 9-hole Score
A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential for immediate use in the scoring record.

*  A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential by adding net pars for the remaining holes plus one additional stroke

(which is applied to the first hole not played), or 17 points in Stableford format.
* The second 9 holes used for scaling up is always the same 9 holes that have been played.

My apologies, I looked in the right document, but quoted the way 9-hole scores are treated for PCC calculation.  

[Newby]

2 minutes ago, Bigarch said:

If you don't, then don't.  If you are playing golf, you play by all the rules.  Otherwise, it's just a game you like to call "golf".

Some times called 'Flog'

[Bye]

I was talking to someone about this the other day. We have a few low handicap players who like posting a 9 hole score, a few of them now have + handicaps when before they were between 2 & 4 on CONGU . I think it is fine when someone is new to or coming back to the game and is getting a handicap. But once someone has 20 scores in, it seems pointless to me and especially for low handicaps. 

 

Personally I think CONGU was a better system of identifying a players true ability when playing regularly. For a long time someone with a handicap of below 5 could only get a reduction when playing in a competition round. 

 

The new system defiantly takes form more into account. 

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

The OP's talk about 9 holes being a "true measure" of skill was just part of the litany of excuses for maintaining a higher handicap, doing what he wants, ignoring pretty easy rules to follow - that's where the "hogwash" comment came from.

 

My personal feelings I suppose represent my life experience. I grew up until HS playing a 9 hole course, my grandparents played a country 9 holer, most golf events until I got older were 9 holes except for "higher up" events (not saying I played "elevated events", lol).  You can't have a handicap system that requires you play an 18 hole round for posting purposes for a lot of reasons.  I've played 9 holes under conditions that tested me more and was more challenging than three 18 hole rounds, that's all a matter of the situation.  Plenty of courses with 18 or more holes can only have 9 hole leagues or they wouldn't have the time slots, participation, etc. to have them - those rounds at my course count for the majority of rounds posted by those who don't play as often. If I was playing a competition, I agree that 18, maybe even 36, is a better test to weed out a champion. Having said that, if the competition is designated 9 holes, show up and play your best under the situation, it's still real, for some maybe even more pressure.  For the average am posting scores and playing golf, the system is the system and 9 hole rounds absolutely need to be posted for it to be representative.  

 

As I said, if you don't want to maintain a real handicap (by the way, do whatever makes you happy) then don't.  If you profess to have one, follow the rules of golf and that includes rules applicable to reporting scores.  It's intellectually and just plain honest (not a matter of sleeping at night, haha, you've got to have a conscience for there to be dissonance).

Edited March 20, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Newby]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

My apologies, I looked in the right document, but quoted the way 9-hole scores are treated for PCC calculation.  

What page were you looking at? I can't see anything that refers to doubling.

[wobgon]

14 hours ago, J2putts said:

Well ,fortunately I have only played gross /stroke play tournaments over the last 2 years .. so I'll somehow manage to sleep at night.  Majority of people I've posed this question to "feel" the same way I do . The true measure of someone's ability is revealed over 18 consecutive holes ! Not 9 holes at a time ...days apart...under different conditions...

Not sure how someone feels about the rules has any bearing on this issue.

[davep043]

18 minutes ago, Newby said:

What page were you looking at? I can't see anything that refers to doubling.

 

https://static.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/clubs/1000-1/uploads/downloads/whs/congu_advice_170223.pdf

The section heading G5.6/1 (2)

"In contrast to the CSS calculation, 9-hole scores are included in the PCC calculation; the 9-hole
scores being doubled (not scaled up) to get equivalent values for 18 holes. "

[davep043]

15 hours ago, J2putts said:

 Majority of people I've posed this question to "feel" the same way I do . 

 

This sounds eerily similar to some of out politicians who begin sentences with "Everyone knows.....".

 

5 hours ago, J2putts said:

 ..AND that was canceled after 14 holes due to weather,  and I took the remaining 4 hole, equitable strokes . 

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "equitable strokes".  In the old days, Equitable Stroke Control was the maximum you could take on a hole for handicap posting purposes.  Under the current rules, you should take par plus applicable handicap strokes for holes not played, essentially "net par".  

 

4 hours ago, naval2006 said:

This is all way more incosistent than the old only scores posted in competition procedure.  

I realize this is a huge change for many parts of the world, everyone moved closer to the USGA model in many ways.  For me, the changes were very minor.  I've said it before, I'd love to see the USGA move closer to the rest of the world in the next revision to the WHS, and I feel "virtually certain" that there WILL be another revision.

[pseudoswede]

When I play 18, I can rarely put two nines together--I truly personify the "Ray-Ray". I also rarely have time to play 18, so most of my scores are combined 9 hole rounds. One day, I can shoot even par; the next week, on the same course in similar weather, I'll shoot a 48.

 

tl;dr - I'm consistently inconsistent regardless if I play 9 holes back-to-back or week-to-week.