Golf clubs have the smallest handle of anything I can think of that you’d attempt to generate power with, why?

[KGrinols]

21 hours ago, MikeW2 said:

My curiosity comes from the fact that I have very small hands, wrist to tip of longest finger is just under 7 inches, but like the feel of a thicker grip. Which ironically I held for the first time ever yesterday.

 

Can't speak for original person you quoted, but I am 8" from wrist to tip of middle finger.

I used Regular MCC+4s for years and have now moved to Midsize gross because they just feel so much better to me.

 

With traditional grips I get a lot of 'slop' in my hands at the top of my swing, because it feels like there's room to bounce around in my hands unless I squeeze the absolute hell out of the grip.  

 

At the top and at off center impact, there were times I could feel the grip twisting in my hands, which caused a lot of wear and tear on my hands.  I would (and still do with some practice clubs I keep around) get calluses on my left pinky and ring finger, just beneath the first crease, and also on my left thumb pad.

 

I could easily go bigger, but didn't want to stray too fast from 'normal' due to stigmas.

 

For OP and just food for thought, also consider a string wheel, handle bars on a bike or motorcycle, every tool in the world, shovel, rake, broom, car jack, pretty much everything in the world that goes into a humans hands is ergonomically designed, except the golf club.

 

So the real question is, are ergonomics counter productive to a good club?  If so why?

 

The only thing I can think of at the moment... Is a whip.  That's one thing that has a similar size grip to a golf club, and I'm wondering if there is something about that quick transitioning movement that benefits smaller grips.

 

I think most evidence is circumstantial, because everything is compared to a 100+ year old standard.  So logically, anyone who switches for 5 minutes will have a negative result, even if the switch was a known benefit.

[jonsnow]

I had a lesson Saturday with a teacher who was a really good college player (SEC individual champion while at Alabama back in the 90s). He is about the same size as me (6-1 & 230ish) with similar size hands. He asked why I play midsize grips, He actually plays undersize grips. He said larger grips tend to ride up into the lifeline of your left hand during the swing if you don't pay close attention to your grip. I found that to be accurate in my case.

[ac6]

21 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

The first grips were strips of leather wrapped around wooden shafts, which gave the approximate size of today’s grips.

 

This--plus, it wasn't until recently that materials have been good enough to give you a significantly larger grip without ruining the swingweight of the club. 150 years ago if you wanted that you had to get a hickory stick that was way too heavy and stiff to use as a club. 30 years ago if you wanted it you had to get it in solid rubber and adjust for the extra 50 grams you were adding at the butt end of your club. 

 

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

We grip the club in the fingers rather than the palms because of the need for that finer control. Which is a reason the grips aren't the size of a tennis racket or baseball bat--how are you going to grip in the fingers with something that big? 

 

I think this one's a chicken-and-egg thing to me. Golf technique developed the way it did because the equipment looks the way it does, and vice versa. I also think a crucial difference is that baseball/tennis balls are heavier than golf balls and more importantly they are moving. Gripping the racket/bat in the palm puts you in a more advantageous position to resist and reverse the force of the ball. 

[ac6]

Another thought -- some tennis players wrap extra tape around the butt of their racket to create a severe flared shape. Baseball bats have a severe flare as well. In both cases, it helps the thing not fly out of the player's hand. The rules of golf state it's illegal to have bulge or waist on grips, but the grip may taper. I'm wondering if that might be within the rules of golf--think the maximum legal size butt diameter tapering down to a midsize grip within an inch of the end. Might feel weird, but might also reduce top hand tension 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, ac6 said:

I also think a crucial difference is that baseball/tennis balls are heavier than golf balls and more importantly they are moving. Gripping the racket/bat in the palm puts you in a more advantageous position to resist and reverse the force of the ball. 

 

Good point. In baseball you're swinging a bat with a static weight of about 2 lbs, about twice the weight of a typical iron (and more than that of a driver). You're hitting a ball three times heavier than a golf ball. And that baseball could be moving 100 mph one direction and you're trying to hit it >100 mph the opposite direction.

 

I can imagine if you tried to grip a bat in your fingers to do that, you'd break your fingers!

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Good point. In baseball you're swinging a bat with a static weight of about 2 lbs, about twice the weight of a typical iron (and more than that of a driver). You're hitting a ball three times heavier than a golf ball. And that baseball could be moving 100 mph one direction and you're trying to hit it >100 mph the opposite direction.

 

I can imagine if you tried to grip a bat in your fingers to do that, you'd break your fingers!

And if you could make legitimate contact to return one of Rod Laver’s first serves with a skinny little grip on your racquet, you’d break your wrist!
 

It’s just about the tool being designed properly for the job, nothing more.

[SEP1006]

9 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

We grip the club in the fingers rather than the palms because of the need for that finer control. Which is a reason the grips aren't the size of a tennis racket or baseball bat--how are you going to grip in the fingers with something that big? 

 

 

Well I tend to disagree with this for a couple or reasons.

 

1. You have no choice but to grip a standard size grip in the fingers or else the club would twist in your hand. There just wouldn't be enough surface contact for control in the palms.

 

2. I always gripped the Jumbomax XL's in my palms, definitely gave me more control of the club face.

 

 

 

 

[KGrinols]

After reading this thread and watching a few videos, I think I may have stumbled onto realizing I've been holding the golf club wrong...

 

Where would you guys say you hold the club in your left hand?  I watched a bunch of YouTube videos last night, I'm now just curious where YOU specifically place the club in your lead hand.  Any pictures?

 

I've been laying the club across the base of all 4 fingers for about 10 years since I started.  Like so:

 

 

[EdStraker]

I played tennis for a long time and was on the college team that competed at D1 level. My golf swing is better after I started using JumboMax MidSize UltraLite grips. The good thing about the UltraLite version is that this grip is actually lighter than the MCC +4 Midsize  I used to use, so the swing weight is back to what it was for the clubs out of box.

 

Some of the other tennis players I know prefer the bigger grips too.

 

[ac6]

16 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Well I tend to disagree with this for a couple or reasons.

 

1. You have no choice but to grip a standard size grip in the fingers or else the club would twist in your hand. There just wouldn't be enough surface contact for control in the palms.

 

2. I always gripped the Jumbomax XL's in my palms, definitely gave me more control of the club face.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you, plus you can control the face angle of a tennis racket just fine, both a racket face and club face are controlled primarily by forearm rotation, not finger manipulation

[bladehunter]

16 hours ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Well I tend to disagree with this for a couple or reasons.

 

1. You have no choice but to grip a standard size grip in the fingers or else the club would twist in your hand. There just wouldn't be enough surface contact for control in the palms.

 

2. I always gripped the Jumbomax XL's in my palms, definitely gave me more control of the club face.

 

 

 

 

Agree. I think it’s contextual.  I think that those with small hands may have tendency for a larger grip to ride up into the palm because they can’t wrap all the way around with their fingers. It’s a misfit.  But large hands ( long  fingers ) have no issue wrapping the butt of the club up in the fingers. 
 

im 8 1/4 inches from wrist crease to tip of middle finger .  I have no issue wrapping my pinkie on the left hand all the way around a midsize grip and locking it in.  
 

that being said.  I e always oscillated between standard and midsized. I prefer standard on my driver and 3 wood.  And midsize on my irons and wedges.  Put a midsize on my driver and I’ll block everything off the planet.  

Edited July 11, 2023 by bladehunter

[596]

Jumbo Max XL on all my clubs.  I wear an xxl golf glove.  I'll never go back to a regular golf grip.  Much less torque on mishits. Much easier to hold on to with arthritic hands. Easier to control the club face. Saw an increase in distance. But only a few yards.  Did not see anything going right which I was always told would happen with a larger grip.  

 

I've had many people try my clubs and the vast majority really liked how the grip size felt in their hands. It does need to be held more in the palm then the regular grips which are held in the fingers. But most people hold the regular grips more in the palm then they should anyways. 😁

[ac6]

38 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

that being said.  I e always oscillated between standard and midsized. I prefer standard on my driver and 3 wood.  And midsize on my irons and wedges.  Put a midsize on my driver and I’ll block everything off the planet.  

 

Same size hands here. I use midsize +4 on all my clubs, but I am really picky about the installation on the longer clubs because unlike my irons, they all have a different shaft and slightly different tapers in the butt section. So the tape job and stretch really matters to me

[TLUBulldogGolf]

4 hours ago, KGrinols said:

After reading this thread and watching a few videos, I think I may have stumbled onto realizing I've been holding the golf club wrong...

 

Where would you guys say you hold the club in your left hand?  I watched a bunch of YouTube videos last night, I'm now just curious where YOU specifically place the club in your lead hand.  Any pictures?

 

I've been laying the club across the base of all 4 fingers for about 10 years since I started.  Like so:

 

 

 

More towards the base of my fingers in my left hand but I don't know that there is a huge difference when you actually go to grip it. I had it more angled towards my palm previously and developed hand pain until I got it back into my fingers. 

 

Regarding the topic as a whole, if I were to go larger it would have to be a soft grip but they just don't hold up for me, so I play just under a midsize, but I have shortish fingers. Especially with the feel shots a bigger grip just doesn't work for me, but it could just be a case of that's what I've always used and am used to it. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[Lefty_3Jack]

I wear a medium to medium large glove.  My handsize is 7/8 palm 1/8 stubby fingers.  I've played with midsized grips for the last 5 years and really like the feel of them.  I do keep regular sized grips on my wedges though.  It hasn't lessened my hook at all and if anything I wonder if it causes me to grip the club overly strong to get a better handle on it.  Reading this has me wondering if moving back to standard would be beneficial. 

[bladehunter]

39 minutes ago, ac6 said:

 

Same size hands here. I use midsize +4 on all my clubs, but I am really picky about the installation on the longer clubs because unlike my irons, they all have a different shaft and slightly different tapers in the butt section. So the tape job and stretch really matters to me

Yep. Same.  I use 3 extra on the bottom hand and I do stretch them quite a bit on my irons.  I want them firm.  That’s the one draw back of midsized. The butt section is squishier than standard.  I hate a squishy grip. This is my left hand on an extra hybrid I have that’s midsize stretched like my irons.  I can still wrap my middle finger all the way under my palm pad and most fitters will claim that’s too small.  

Edited July 11, 2023 by bladehunter

[nvr3putt]

5 hours ago, KGrinols said:

After reading this thread and watching a few videos, I think I may have stumbled onto realizing I've been holding the golf club wrong...

 

Where would you guys say you hold the club in your left hand?  I watched a bunch of YouTube videos last night, I'm now just curious where YOU specifically place the club in your lead hand.  Any pictures?

 

I've been laying the club across the base of all 4 fingers for about 10 years since I started.  Like so:

 

 

Your index and thumb needs to make a crease, similar to how your right thumb and index finger creates one. 

[MattC555]

I switched over to midsize about a decade ago when they became the new hot thing.  I wear a cadet large glove for reference - large palm relative to my hands, 7.5" wrist to finger tip.  Recently I've been moving the grip more into my fingers and find a standard grip to be preferable.  Most of my set right now is midsize, but my driver, 7W, and 60° are standard.  Would probably drive some nuts, but I wanted to see which I prefer.  I think I'm leaning back towards standard grips with just one wrap of tape.  Less blocks and feels like I have more control.  YMMV

[PedronNiall]

S'more science:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27267082/

• Increased club head speed in undersized grips.
• No difference in average forearm activity throughout the swing for pros regardless of grip size, increased forearm activity in ams with all grip sizes--undersized, standard, jumbo.

https://jumbomax.com/pages/independent-testing

• *Conducted by an outside agency for the company
• Mean increase in both club head speed and carry distance for 14 out of 15 participants
• Study does not appear to have been peer reviewed as of yet and isn't published anywhere that I could find

Going to still say we need to see more done around this. In Finch's video he noted that part of his intent was to move the grip more toward his palm like one might hold a hammer or manipulate a hockey stick vs more towards the fingers as a traditional golf grip promotes. No real argument that wouldn't be the outcome for larger grips and that it could be useful for that alone for players who have issues with pain in their fingers. Would like to see real info on differences in wrist strain and impact based on grip size. As far as fatigue, from the above it looks like average ams can tire themselves out with anything.

 

Would also hope that someone does more detailed analysis to figure out if there are factors around optimization that affect the outcome of grip size on spin, dispersion, and distance. So far some people see more distance with undersized grips and others see more with oversize, though it's worth noting that the jumbomax grips showing those outcomes above and in the prior video I posted are larger but still come in size categories suited to different hand profiles.

 

Was everyone in all the studies using traditional hand/finger alignment for all grip sizes? Did those using the jumbomaxes tend to alter their grips to accommodate them, and by doing so create a grip profile that allowed for more speed? Too many unknowns here to say what's what. Still accurate to say that the current norms around grip recommendation are rooted in tradition rather than research and there are a lot more studies available about tennis grips than golf grips.

[Zitlow]

21 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

S'more science:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27267082/

• Increased club head speed in undersized grips.
• No difference in average forearm activity throughout the swing for pros regardless of grip size, increased forearm activity in ams with all grip sizes--undersized, standard, jumbo.

https://jumbomax.com/pages/independent-testing

• *Conducted by an outside agency for the company
• Mean increase in both club head speed and carry distance for 14 out of 15 participants
• Study does not appear to have been peer reviewed as of yet and isn't published anywhere that I could find

Going to still say we need to see more done around this. In Finch's video he noted that part of his intent was to move the grip more toward his palm like one might hold a hammer or manipulate a hockey stick vs more towards the fingers as a traditional golf grip promotes. No real argument that wouldn't be the outcome for larger grips and that it could be useful for that alone for players who have issues with pain in their fingers. Would like to see real info on differences in wrist strain and impact based on grip size. As far as fatigue, from the above it looks like average ams can tire themselves out with anything.

 

Would also hope that someone does more detailed analysis to figure out if there are factors around optimization that affect the outcome of grip size on spin, dispersion, and distance. So far some people see more distance with undersized grips and others see more with oversize, though it's worth noting that the jumbomax grips showing those outcomes above and in the prior video I posted are larger but still come in size categories suited to different hand profiles.

 

Was everyone in all the studies using traditional hand/finger alignment for all grip sizes? Did those using the jumbomaxes tend to alter their grips to accommodate them, and by doing so create a grip profile that allowed for more speed? Too many unknowns here to say what's what. Still accurate to say that the current norms around grip recommendation are rooted in tradition rather than research and there are a lot more studies available about tennis grips than golf grips.

 

That's interesting. People who push the club may benefit from jumbo grips and people who sling the club may benefit from standard or undersized grips. 

[zacgolf]

 

[SEP1006]

7 hours ago, zacgolf said:

 

 

 

Been saying this for the last 8 years here. My exact experience, straighter and longer with Jumbomax!!

 

 

 

 

[Zitlow]

Has anyone tried the new Lizzo grips? 

[me05501]

Among all the other sports discussed here it seems like baseball is the only one that really applies. 

 

A tennis racket head is made as lightweight as possible in the interest of helping generate speed with a very short handle. 

 

A baseball bat is much more like a golf club in terms of length and weight distribution. The weight is mostly at the fat end and the player's goal is to control that fat end with as much speed as possible. Same goal as golf, basically, other than the fact that ball bats are round so face control isn't a factor. 

 

A lacrosse stick is long but the weight is evenly distributed throughout the length. The length provides leverage and control and the handle is roughly proportionate to a golf club. 

 

Still, my driver carry distance is short in proportion to my iron distances so the video above is intriguing. I have gone from using a neutral/fade biased head to a very draw-biased head to take the right side completely out of play. My miss now is a pull or over-draw so a larger grip might quiet my hands a bit and get the ball started online or right of my target line a bit more often.  

[iceman1118]

Good topic. I personally think a lot of this is player and person dependent. I wear a cadet small glove and my hand measures 7.5 inches. 4.5 inch palm and 3 inch middle finger. I can't use anything bigger than a single wrap with a standard size grip. And I am picky about it. For example, the tour velvet or MCC shape is perfect for me. Give me an MCC plus 4 and I swear the top portion of that grip is bigger than the TV and MCC because for the life of me I can't keep a solid grip on a club with a MCC plus 4. If I have a MCC plus 4 or any other standard grip with just +1 wrap, the grip starts to slowly leak into my palm and I lose all sense of feel and control. 

 

As for comparisons to other sports, especially tennis and baseball, (and I played 4 years of college baseball), the "accuracy" argument in those sports is not the same as in golf. Golf we need the feel in our fingers to hit to a very, very specific target, especially as we get closer to the green. Tennis and baseball are moving objects that we are trying to make contact with and return that moving object in a GENERAL direction, not exactly a pre-planned, thought out SPECIFIC target like golf. Tennis for the most part is returning the ball to a spot where the other player is not. Not exactly a huge court and it's a decent sized window to return the ball to your intended area. So yes there is feel involved, but I am not quite so sure it's the same. Baseball we are trying to hit it where it's pitched. Outside pitch to opposite field, etc. Plus it's a round headed object striking a round ball. No face to square up, no true "feel" for the face if you will. Plus the butt end of a baseball bat (even an end loaded bat with a "thinner" handle) is absolutely bigger than a golf shaft. No way you can grip that anywhere else but your palms. When I throw a baseball, it needs to go to a very specific target. There is not one person on Earth who palms a baseball to throw it. That is purely in the fingers. Plus a hockey stick and some baseball bats are shaped differently than a golf shaft. But who knows, could be a lot of rambling for nothing.

 

With regards to hockey, maybe a pass or a wrist shot could be considered a pre-planned specific shot, but I never played so can't comment on that sport. 

 

But again, a single wrap standard TV or MCC is extremely comfortable to me. So there's than argument as well. 

 

I 100% agree that there is not enough testing on this subject. Could be a whole new window of opportunity here. 

[jarediogolf]

I recently put a Jumbomax ultra lite medium grip on my driver. 
I have midsize on my woods. 

Standard on my Irons (I want to try midsize or jumbo)

Midsize on my Wedges. (Don’t think I’d go bigger)

Regarding ALL clubs. My miss is a pull. 

 

Regarding driver: 

I like to see a fade. I worked hard to hit a draw because many resources always said that’s what a good player hits. When I got there I didn’t like it and moved back to a fade. 
 

With Jumbomax Medium, I put it on and liked the feel but did NOT like swinging it, felt foreign. Almost took it off after a range session (even though I felt like I was hitting it good and more solid). Also it made muscles in my hands and forearms a bit sore. 
 

Decided to play a round of golf with the grip still on.  Didn’t miss a single shot left. Aimed left fairway and it reliably faded back. 
 

Found I could get more aggressive and worst case scenario it went dead straight and not left. 
 

Now I’m pretty committed to sticking with it on driver. It’s really predictable. 

 

I do wish I went Jumbomax ultralight small or X-small. 
I do not think I would ever go more than a regular midsize in any of my other clubs. I might try jumbo… just to see. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[Canyonaro]

On 7/10/2023 at 7:42 AM, tm3 said:

Great question and interesting discussion.  I think that the above is the Occam's Razor answer -- golf is very strongly rooted in traditions (keep your head down).

 

The other strike against the performance argument is that golf is so mental and players are so superstitious. You'll never convince me the X100 is the optimal shaft for nearly half the players on tour but that's what they play and they don't want to change now. 

 

Another way to look at it is that those who tech the highest level are the ones who were most suited to the equipment that is most available at the time they were growing up. If JumboMax & graphite was the standard instead of tour velvet and dynamic gold, different kids might've become today's pros. Ultimately, this question is unanswerable & no amount of general scientific inquiry will answer the question of  what's best for you.

 

I tried JumboMax for a couple of years and LOVED it on the driver. Distance and dispersion improved. But my iron play was consistently worse, and not by a little. So I ended up going back to standard size MCC+4 grips. 

 

P.S. I know a guy who plays midsize in everything except driver. He leaves everything right with midsize in the driver so he went down to standard. Golf is a weird game. 🤷‍♂️