Trackman Tour Avg. Numbers - Will We Have An Update?

[mkidding]

I think probably most of us have seen this chart - however I just realized that this is from 2015 and was never updated since. Does anyone know if an updated version after 8 years would show up sometime soon? Or do we have any Trackman (or Foresight or other tour-level tracker) rep here that can kindly ask for a more up-to-date version of this?

 

Very curious to see if the data has changed, not just the club speed of course, but also attack angle, launch, spin, etc.

 

Also one question that I always have - why is tour avg. Driver attack angle is negative. I thought nowadays almost all instructors are teaching us to hit-up (resulting in a positive attack angle) on the driver.

 

 

Update: hand picked a couple of pros and here are their numbers - I would believe most of them are "hitting up" to the ball, esp Rickie, Rory and Scottie. Hope for more discussion though:

 

PGA Tour Driving - Selected Data Comp - 2022-2023 Season - Up-to John Deere Classic
Name	Launch Angle	Club Head Speed	Ball Speed	Smash Factor	Spin	Carry	Total	Roll Factor
Rory McIlroy	11.95	122.81	184.60	1.50	2320.6	309.5	327.6	1.06
Scottie Scheffler	10.61	120.81	178.79	1.48	2409.6	290.6	310.9	1.07
Jon Rahm	10.32	119.97	181.51	1.51	2411.9	295.3	313.5	1.06
Jordan Spieth	9.85	117.02	177.42	1.52	2445.1	288.9	304.3	1.05
Rickie Fowler	12.35	116.38	175.32	1.51	2633.7	295.0	308.6	1.05
Justin Thomas	10.10	116.10	175.84	1.51	2285.4	286.0	305.5	1.07
Collin Morikawa	10.80	114.37	170.83	1.49	2366.0	283.8	294.4	1.04
Luke Donald	10.64	111.27	164.63	1.48	2799.9	267.8	282.8	1.06
Tom Kim	11.37	112.62	169.02	1.50	2518.7	280.9	298.2	1.06
Avg.	10.89	116.82	175.33	1.50	2465.7	288.6	305.1	1.06

Edited July 11, 2023 by mkidding

[jimecherry]

4 minutes ago, mkidding said:

I think probably most of us have seen this chart - however I just realized that this is from 2015 and was never updated since. Does anyone know if an updated version after 8 years would show up sometime soon? Or do we have any Trackman (or Foresight or other tour-level tracker) rep here that can kindly ask for a more up-to-date version of this?

 

Very curious to see if the data has changed, not just the club speed of course, but also attack angle, launch, spin, etc.

 

Also one question that I always have - why is tour avg. Driver attack angle is negative. I thought nowadays almost all instructors are teaching us to hit-up (resulting in a positive attack angle) on the driver.

 

Just cause something is being taught doesnt mean old dogs will learn it ;}

[Soloman1]

AoA, as all data in this, are averages. Some are up and some are down. The average person wants three things from a lesson. The first is more distance. Hitting up is the fastest way for them to get that with the same swing speed.

 

I want more distance, and I want it now!

 

It’s a lot of work to get data. Trackman was in growth stage then and did a lot to help people understand impact cause and effect. It was new information about it and put them on the map. Unless your get a return on all that time and effort, it’s hard to justify.

 

The problem is that chasing tour averages of anything in instruction isn’t realistic or helpful. No one is average.

[Ferguson]

I've contacted Klaus and Morten Eldrup-Jørgensen. 

Hoping to get some answers by Friday. 

[jvincent]

@mkidding if you go to the PGA Tour stats page they now have a section called "Radar" which will give you all the raw data for the driver.

[mbb86]

The launch conditions that are optimal for a tour-caliber player in tournament conditions are much different than the optimal launch conditions for a regular (or even very good single digit) player hacking it around a muni or nice club. 

 

Tour angle of attack with driver tend to be neutral/negative for control reasons vs. flat out maximizing distance. 

 

Mortals need higher angle of attack to achieve higher launch to achieve higher apex to achieve optimal distance, because they don't have the same ball speed. When you have an abundance of speed, two things are true: (1) you don't actually need to launch it as high, i.e. you can get pretty close to optimal with 10 or 11* launch vs closer to 13 for someone with a slower swing speed and (2) the marginal gain from each increased yard of distance is not nearly as important at 300 vs 310 as it is at 250 vs 260. So the optimum is actually to gravitate towards parameters that hit it far enough with sufficient control vs. just maximizing distance outright. Nonetheless, all of those guys are certainly capable of teeing it high and letting it rip with a positive AOA when necessary. It just isn't necessary or valuable on all that many holes. 

 

You will observe something similar when comparing LPGA tour launch conditions vs PGA tour launch conditions with driver. LPGA AOA average is closer to 3 or 3.5 IIRC, which is probably closer to optimal for most amateurs. 

 

the other thing I'd keep in mind is that the economic incentive for instructors is for you to come back, i.e. feel like you are playing better rather than necessarily actually playing better. A lot of amateurs would be best off playing a ball flight that goes substantially shorter but gets the ball in play a higher percentage of the time. It's the same reason you see so much instruction out there on "how to hit a draw". You need to be really, really good for a draw to make sense as a desirable stock ball flight. But a lot of the golf market associates draw=good because slice=bad. My 12 handicap brother has been obsessed with hitting draws for the last 5 years even though I kick his a** by 15 shots every round hitting a fade. It boggles the mind. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by mbb86

[MattC555]

From PGA Stats Radar:

 

Launch

• High 13.5°
• Median  10.5°
• Low 6.2°

 

The average hides the fact that PGA pro's launch at a surprisingly wide variance of launch conditions.  Spin rates vary from 2200 to just over 3000rpm.  Tour average ball speed is now 173mph, ranging from 156mph to 191mph.  At first glance I don't think the driver numbers have changed that dramatically in the last 8 years.  Slight bump in average ball speed.  Thats all I see. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by MattC555

[jimecherry]

52 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

From PGA Stats Radar:

 

Launch

• High 13.5°
• Median  10.5°
• Low 6.2°

 

The average hides the fact that PGA pro's launch at a surprisingly wide variance of launch conditions.  Spin rates vary from 2200 to just over 3000rpm.  Tour average ball speed is now 173mph, ranging from 156mph to 191mph.  At first glance I don't think the driver numbers have changed that dramatically in the last 8 years.  Slight bump in average ball speed.  Thats all I see. 

oddly enough i bet every pro worth anything can adjust there launch angle based on conditions and how theyre playing so even a massive hitter like rahm can do low launches if he fills he needs more fairways and less distance.

 

1 hour ago, mbb86 said:

The launch conditions that are optimal for a tour-caliber player in tournament conditions are much different than the optimal launch conditions for a regular (or even very good single digit) player hacking it around a muni or nice club. 

 

Tour angle of attack with driver tend to be neutral/negative for control reasons vs. flat out maximizing distance. 

 

Mortals need higher angle of attack to achieve higher launch to achieve higher apex to achieve optimal distance, because they don't have the same ball speed. When you have an abundance of speed, two things are true: (1) you don't actually need to launch it as high, i.e. you can get pretty close to optimal with 10 or 11* launch vs closer to 13 for someone with a slower swing speed and (2) the marginal gain from each increased yard of distance is not nearly as important at 300 vs 310 as it is at 250 vs 260. So the optimum is actually to gravitate towards parameters that hit it far enough with sufficient control vs. just maximizing distance outright. Nonetheless, all of those guys are certainly capable of teeing it high and letting it rip with a positive AOA when necessary. It just isn't necessary or valuable on all that many holes. 

 

You will observe something similar when comparing LPGA tour launch conditions vs PGA tour launch conditions with driver. LPGA AOA average is closer to 3 or 3.5 IIRC, which is probably closer to optimal for most amateurs. 

 

the other thing I'd keep in mind is that the economic incentive for instructors is for you to come back, i.e. feel like you are playing better rather than necessarily actually playing better. A lot of amateurs would be best off playing a ball flight that goes substantially shorter but gets the ball in play a higher percentage of the time. It's the same reason you see so much instruction out there on "how to hit a draw". You need to be really, really good for a draw to make sense as a desirable stock ball flight. But a lot of the golf market associates draw=good because slice=bad. My 12 handicap brother has been obsessed with hitting draws for the last 5 years even though I kick his a** by 15 shots every round hitting a fade. It boggles the mind. 

slice != fade || draw != hook. saying people should hit a slice is equivalent to saying they should hit a hook

Edited July 11, 2023 by jimecherry

[mosesgolf]

Seems like 180mph+ ball speeds are the norm these days.  

174-179 dime a dozen.  Those are amazing numbers imo. 

[smashdn]

Regarding AoA, had always heard that since most of these guys are adequately long for the courses they are playing, they sacrifice a touch of distance in exchange for keeping the ball lower and a little more controllable.  That saw may be incorrect at this point though.

 

Regarding differences between now and 2015, I would bet that spin rate has come down some with driver to more in the 2400-2200 range.

[MattC555]

5 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Regarding AoA, had always heard that since most of these guys are adequately long for the courses they are playing, they sacrifice a touch of distance in exchange for keeping the ball lower and a little more controllable.  That saw may be incorrect at this point though.

 

Regarding differences between now and 2015, I would bet that spin rate has come down some with driver to more in the 2400-2200 range.

 

Average spin rate this year is  2555.6rpm.  Last year just short of 2600rpm.  The driver numbers are very similar to what was reported in 2015.  Slightly more ball speed, slightly less spin.  Club head speed has increased 2mph from 113mph to 115mph. 

 

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/detail/02405

[mkidding]

7 hours ago, jvincent said:

@mkidding if you go to the PGA Tour stats page they now have a section called "Radar" which will give you all the raw data for the driver.

 

Thanks for the tips. There's no attack angle data but here are some people's stat that I picked out for reference. It's hard to believe they carry a neg. attack angle IMO

 

Anyways, updated the original post on top.

 

 

[mgoblue83]

I'm more interested in the iron data than driver. Pretty clear that the guys are absolutely launching the driver now and the the newer players are swinging faster and faster. It also appears that pros aren't as steep with their irons as they used to be. Divots look to be much smaller and shallower. 

 

Guessing that 7i numbers are closer to:

98-100 mph swing speed

130-135 ball speed

-2 or -3 AoA

Spin 6000

Carry distance 180-190

 

Assuming that pros are using 7 irons with 32-34 degrees of loft.

Edited July 12, 2023 by mgoblue83

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

I'm more interested in the iron data than driver. Pretty clear that the guys are absolutely launching the driver now and the the newer players are swinging faster and faster. It also appears that pros aren't as steep with their irons as they used to be. Divots look to be much smaller and shallower. 

 

Guessing that 7i numbers are closer to:

98-100 mph swing speed

130-135 ball speed

-2 or -3 AoA

Spin 6000

Carry distance 180-190

 

Assuming that pros are using 7 irons with 32-34 degrees of loft.

 

I would expect to see very similar numbers just with slightly higher club and ball speed. With the tour averaging 115 with the driver you can extrapolate it to around 92-93. Pros aren't looking to reduce spin with short and mid irons. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[mgoblue83]

30 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

I would expect to see very similar numbers just with slightly higher club and ball speed. With the tour averaging 115 with the driver you can extrapolate it to around 92-93. Pros aren't looking to reduce spin with short and mid irons. 

 

This is why we need actual data. Who knows how accurate the broadcasts are but alI I saw on the US Open coverage was 7i ball speeds over 130mph and carrying 190~ yds. 

 

My own numbers with a 36 degree blade 7i are 98~ swing speed, 129~ ball speed, 7200~ spin and 180~ carry and I'm almost positive most pros are using less loft (34 probably) and swinging at least as fast.

 

The other thing that would be nice to see is the median numbers instead of the averages. I know the tour is becoming younger and faster and while there definitely some old guys bringing down the average I'd almost guarantee that the IQR (25th-75th percentile) is significantly faster than the old Trackman averages. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by mgoblue83

[Chunkitgood]

On 7/11/2023 at 6:24 AM, Soloman1 said:

AoA, as all data in this, are averages. Some are up and some are down. The average person wants three things from a lesson. The first is more distance. Hitting up is the fastest way for them to get that with the same swing speed.

 

I want more distance, and I want it now!

 

It’s a lot of work to get data. Trackman was in growth stage then and did a lot to help people understand impact cause and effect. It was new information about it and put them on the map. Unless your get a return on all that time and effort, it’s hard to justify.

 

The problem is that chasing tour averages of anything in instruction isn’t realistic or helpful. No one is average.

No one may be average, and we can’t be sure without more info, but it is almost certain that a lot of people are in a pretty small space really close to it.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

2 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

This is why we need actual data. Who knows how accurate the broadcasts are but alI I saw on the US Open coverage was 7i ball speeds over 130mph and carrying 190~ yds. 

 

My own numbers with a 36 degree 7i are 98~ swing speed, 129~ ball speed and 180~ carry and I'm almost positive most pros are using less loft (34 probably) and swinging at least as fast. 

 

The other thing that would be nice to see is the median numbers instead of the averages. I know the tour is becoming younger and faster and while there definitely some old guys bringing down the average I'd almost guarantee that the IQR (25th-75th percentile) is significantly faster than the old Trackman averages. 

 

All fair points but you are probably a touch faster than the average PGA player. It would be nice to have the data. I think you are probably correct on loft as 36 is quite weak nowadays. I would guess 33-34 range, which in your case would yield more ball speed immediately and you are at the 130+ number. 

 

Here is Keegan with a 6 iron, though we don't have his swing speed or ball speed. He is very close to tour average club head speed:

 

https://golf.com/news/launch-monitor-numbers-keegan-bradley-trackman/

 

I tinkered with the trajectory optimizer and would guess he's 96-97 with 6 iron, which would put him 94-95 with 7. I think that's likely to be closer than my initial estimate, as the radar stats on the TOUR site include more than just driver afaik.

 

Here is JT at 99 with a 6 iron (though it's from 5 years ago), he's slightly above average ball speed:

 

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/justin-thomas-trackman-numbers/

 

 

 

 

[mgoblue83]

27 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

All fair points but you are probably a touch faster than the average PGA player. It would be nice to have the data. I think you are probably correct on loft as 36 is quite weak nowadays. I would guess 33-34 range, which in your case would yield more ball speed immediately and you are at the 130+ number. 

 

Here is Keegan with a 6 iron, though we don't have his swing speed or ball speed. He is very close to tour average club head speed:

 

https://golf.com/news/launch-monitor-numbers-keegan-bradley-trackman/

 

I tinkered with the trajectory optimizer and would guess he's 96-97 with 6 iron, which would put him 94-95 with 7. I think that's likely to be closer than my initial estimate, as the radar stats on the TOUR site include more than just driver afaik.

 

Here is JT at 99 with a 6 iron (though it's from 5 years ago), he's slightly above average ball speed:

 

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/justin-thomas-trackman-numbers/

 

 

 

 

 

Really interesting stuff but I would bet almost anything that JT is closer to the median PGA tour speed than Keegan is. Speaking of Keegan my mind is blown that he wants his 6i swing plane under 54 degrees. I don't even know how that's physically possible especially for a tall guy like Keegan. My driver swing plane is higher than that.... Also that swing looked like a chip shot. No way that's his game speed.

Edited July 12, 2023 by mgoblue83

[MattC555]

53 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Really interesting stuff but I would bet almost anything that JT is closer to the median PGA tour speed than Keegan is. Speaking of Keegan my mind is blown that he wants his 6i swing plane under 54 degrees. I don't even know how that's physically possible especially for a tall guy like Keegan. My driver swing plane is higher than that.... Also that swing looked like a chip shot. No way that's his game speed.

 

JT is 77 out 190 for driver CHS.  Keegan is 102.

[Ferguson]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:24 AM, Ferguson said:

I've contacted Klaus and Morten Eldrup-Jørgensen. 

Hoping to get some answers by Friday. 

 

 

Q1, 2024 

 

Thanks.

[Soloman1]

21 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

No one may be average, and we can’t be sure without more info, but it is almost certain that a lot of people are in a pretty small space really close to it.

 

That isn’t the case with range of motion. It’s a wide band.

 

Optimum AoA for any player depends on variables in equipment, physical attributes and swing (particularly swing plane).

 

Even for a data guy like me, sometimes numbers are a distraction. Impact geometry, spin and ball flight result is more productive because optimum AoA can be different for individuals.

 

Chasing one parameter is one of the best ways I know to turn a 1 handicap into an 8.

[RaisyDaisy]

 

On 7/13/2023 at 12:15 PM, Ferguson said:

 

 

Q1, 2024 

 

Thanks.

As Q1 2024 is over, any news on the release of updated figures as per the indication mentioned in this thread?

[Ferguson]

3 hours ago, RaisyDaisy said:

 

As Q1 2024 is over, any news on the release of updated figures as per the indication mentioned in this thread?

 

The bottleneck is Fredrik Tuxen, engineer.  Tuxey, as they call him, should have some answers for us around the middle of June.

 

[Titleist99]

Mike Hall has a recent article. (How far PGA Tour Players carry their drives)

[nikohl]

I'm also looking for current numbers, but there is an update from 2017 which is pretty much the same as 2015...https://blog.trackmangolf.com/2017-pga-lpga-tour-avg/

[hogan2017]

FYI they just posted an update

 

Still negative AOA for Driver which is surprising

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages

[mosesgolf]

Average carry of 282 is just incredible.  I’ve seen Jordan Spieth hit 180mph ball speeds so he has picked up around 10mph ball speed from not long ago.   Different ball game these days. 

[Titleist99]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:27 AM, mbb86 said:

The launch conditions that are optimal for a tour-caliber player in tournament conditions are much different than the optimal launch conditions for a regular (or even very good single digit) player hacking it around a muni or nice club. 

 

Tour angle of attack with driver tend to be neutral/negative for control reasons vs. flat out maximizing distance. 

 

Mortals need higher angle of attack to achieve higher launch to achieve higher apex to achieve optimal distance, because they don't have the same ball speed. When you have an abundance of speed, two things are true: (1) you don't actually need to launch it as high, i.e. you can get pretty close to optimal with 10 or 11* launch vs closer to 13 for someone with a slower swing speed and (2) the marginal gain from each increased yard of distance is not nearly as important at 300 vs 310 as it is at 250 vs 260. So the optimum is actually to gravitate towards parameters that hit it far enough with sufficient control vs. just maximizing distance outright. Nonetheless, all of those guys are certainly capable of teeing it high and letting it rip with a positive AOA when necessary. It just isn't necessary or valuable on all that many holes. 

 

You will observe something similar when comparing LPGA tour launch conditions vs PGA tour launch conditions with driver. LPGA AOA average is closer to 3 or 3.5 IIRC, which is probably closer to optimal for most amateurs. 

 

the other thing I'd keep in mind is that the economic incentive for instructors is for you to come back, i.e. feel like you are playing better rather than necessarily actually playing better. A lot of amateurs would be best off playing a ball flight that goes substantially shorter but gets the ball in play a higher percentage of the time. mind. 

"It's the same reason you see so much instruction out there on "how to hit a draw". You need to be really, really good for a draw to make sense as a desirable stock ball flight. But a lot of the golf market associates draw=good because slice=bad. My 12 handicap brother has been obsessed with hitting draws for the last 5 years even though I kick his a** by 15 shots every round hitting a fade. It boggles the"

 

Truer words have never been spoken. My game with a fade was fine until I took a lesson to learn how to hit a draw consistently. I lost my game and my motivation to play the game, that was five years ago. I still play, but nothing like when I was posting good scores. For the Amateurs and Professionals......an added 10 yards is the "Holy Grail"

 

Is there any question as to why most golfers disagree with a rollback?

 

As for me, I'll continue to search for the consistent fade that I should have appreciated in the first place. 🙂🙂

[Cactus Jack]

1 hour ago, hogan2017 said:

FYI they just posted an update

 

Still negative AOA for Driver which is surprising

 

https://www.trackman.com/blog/golf/introducing-updated-tour-averages

 

Thank you!

 

Crazy to me how those ladies and gentlemen hit each club on average, PW to driver, the same height, and how low they get their launch angles. They have some serious hands forward delofting compression.  

[leezer99]

Would be interesting in seeing who the most average player is.