90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span

[MattC555]

Note this is the wedge he is using:

https://www.c3igolf.com/

 

Who knows how that thing works.  Looks like an Alien wedge from back in the day.

Edited January 12 by MattC555

[iacas]

On 1/11/2024 at 11:15 AM, johnrobison said:

Like many golfers, the feeling you have is that your arms and hands aren't doing anything until very late. The truth however, and quite evidently so from the video, is that you're applying a whole bunch of force to the club VERY early on. Your lead arm is moving down your chest and your hands are moving away from your trail shoulder at a MUCH higher rate than gravitational pull. Also much faster than your rotation or you'd never have the separation. Despite what you feel - and you should feel whatever works for you - that's not what's happening. Not even close.

 

In the words of Sean Foley's kid: "That's facts!" And as usual, they're on the opposite side of things from R2L. Maybe he should go back to righty since he's so often on the wrong side of things.

 

On 1/11/2024 at 11:15 AM, johnrobison said:

But understand that there's a reason for the piling on and you'd do yourself a favor to step back and consider that you have your facts wrong, despite whether they work for you.

 

Why start now? It's only been over a decade. Oh, crap, I just looked: make that over 15 years now!

 

On 1/11/2024 at 11:15 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

Hey put your lil lines on this one and tell me where I begin to engage the turf as this is an overhead view of me hitting the shot.

 

No thanks. It's not a golf shot hit on a golf course, and it's wildly off topic.

And to that…

Spoiler

On 1/11/2024 at 11:15 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

You are flat out wrong when you say that I am hitting ball first and on that wedge shot on course I don't have the face wide open but only slightly open so the club is much closer to the ball but I am still engaging the turf prior to the ball.

 

Point was you didn't hit anywhere near 6" behind the ball. OT, though, so that's all you get. You and others might recall that I teach a pitch shot where the bounce engages. PING's "Glide" wedges were named because we said the word "Glide" was better than the word "bounce" in our book, and they liked that, so they named their wedges "Glide."

 

Big fans of using the bounce here where and when it's appropriate. But six inches? Hell no. Three inches? I'll demonstrate that on a mat occasionally, and how you can get a "usable" miss out of it, but it's not a "good" or "great" shot.

 

Big fan of the bounce here… but to pretend you should use it on every shot ever, ha ha ha. No. That's silly.

 

On 1/11/2024 at 11:42 AM, JayMas said:

It's a carpet, so of course you can hit 6 inches behind the ball coming in shallow and carry the club pretty seamlessly to impact haha. People hit behind the ball on mats all the time and the result is not terrible. If you did that on a fairway, you'd chunk the s*** out of it, even with a lot of bounce and the flight certainly would not be some high, floppy situation.

 

Would love to see him hit six inches behind it on some hardpan. 🤣

 

On 1/11/2024 at 12:27 PM, JayMas said:

None of that changes the fact that the video on the course shows you contacting the ball first, regardless of your intent.

 

Yeah. No ground disturbance before the ball.

 

Anyway…

 

On 1/11/2024 at 11:54 AM, johnrobison said:

All that you've shown in that video is that you can apply force in different directions. Again, you moved the club faster than the Earth's force of gravity can. You HAD to apply force. No other way.

 

That's facts!

 

On 1/11/2024 at 12:40 PM, johnrobison said:

Yes, the trail arm is flexing then extending. And that extending is applying a force along the shaft of the club. A pulling force.

…

You continue to argue against what's really happening by describing how things feel. 

…

You have proven nothing by repeating the same thing - feels - over and over. Yet, the myriad data that's come from measurements taken by MacKenzie, Nesbit and others prove conclusively what actually happens.

 

That's facts!

 

23 hours ago, cav5 said:

A real 5 is pretty good for someone that figured it out without being decent as a teenager. I can count on one hand how many people I know like that. He shot 80 with me on a coastal NE course blowing his first time with multiple lost balls.

 

Clearly, ability (or lack thereof) to play high level golf doesn't say much about how well you understand the golf swing, the physics or biomechanics of the golf swing, or have a grasp of feel vs. real.

 

23 hours ago, cav5 said:

Biomechanics wise I don't know if anyone yet has properly identified slash measured the correct things or measured the right things correctly.

 

Even if that were remotely true… what they have measured is often in direct contradiction to what your buddy feels like he's doing and that all should do in the golf swing. At best he pitches feels as if they're real; at worst, he doesn't understand the golf swing very well at all because he doesn't know what really happens in a good one.

 

23 hours ago, cav5 said:

Intention is there beforehand, so just go on that and try again.

 

And when the intent fails to entirely change a 20-handicapper's backswing and downswing, then what?

 

3 hours ago, Golfbeat said:

How did we get from the topic of 90 degrees of shaft rotation in the full swing to using the bounce in wedge play? 

 

I don't know, but the mods are nowhere to be seen.

 

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

Speaking somewhat back on topic these models and "new findings" I do not really get or understand the need for. If we need all this complexity do we really understand?

 

Yep. It's beneficial to know what the best golfers are actually doing.

 

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

You don't have to do any of this manual nonsense imo if you simply put, do not allow alignment. It's much more important to understand what the club is doing to us than we are doing to the club.

 

The club doesn't do much on its own. We make the club do 99% of what it does.

 

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

And, gravity definently has a role in the best swings.

 

Yes, it makes the ball come down after it's hit. 😀 In the golf swing, its role is very small.

 

1 hour ago, Avid_but_mediocre said:

He's constantly moving the topic and making people chase the conversation to avoid getting pinned down and having to admit he's wrong. He probably doesn't even realize he's doing it, it's just his debate/arguing style that "works" because he's "never proven wrong".

 

🤣 Nailed it.

 

As for the clubface rotating… Brian won't like it as it's two of his sworn enemies (😀), but… 

 

[getitdaily]

11 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

Note this is the wedge he is using:

https://www.c3igolf.com/

 

Who knows how that thing works.  Looks like an Alien wedge from back in the day.

OH WOW!

 

He's using a cheater wedge and advocating that everyone should hit shots the way that wedge was made for. 

 

From a review of that wedge

 

"That being said, I know plenty of mid-to-high handicappers struggle mightily with bunker shots and various other lies around the green. I would say the C3i Wedge can help those players as somewhat of a last resort."

 

So he's advocating everyone plays chip shots the way a specialty wedge, that's made for people who can't chip, is designed to be played. 

 

This is even more comical now. 

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

My C3i wedges have nearly 40 degrees of bounce and I shared a video of them at ground level that you may have overlooked. You actually do not want the leading edge to be close to the ground because that will move the strike higher on the face so it will come out dead and with no spin. Higher bounce encourages the strike to be lower on the face and this actually promotes more spin.  You are mistaken in that you think that engaging the turf behind the ball means you hit it fat on a partial wedge shot when it does not and it is actually very easy to manage.  

 

The shots actually spin more with the bounce engaged because it encourages the strike to be lower on the face and it is very easy to control actually.  The bounce keeps the leading edge from entering the turf so in essence partial wedge shots are executed very similar to a bunker shot. You responded to the video that I posted of tour pros engaging the turf prior the ball in super slo motion so I'm not sure what other proof you are looking for.  There are also videos of me hitting the shots in slo mo also. Your assertion that distance control is made more difficult is incorrect and I assure you trying leading edge chip hitting ball first is orders of magnitude more difficult.  I a going to start a use bounce thread here in a moment to get this conversation out of this thread goin forward. 

40 degrees of bounce? Lol. You serious? Those wedges have 12 degrees of bounce.

 

40 degrees...holy moly

[cav5]

39 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

Note this is the wedge he is using:

https://www.c3igolf.com/

 

Who knows how that thing works.  Looks like an Alien wedge from back in the day.

It has a face and more bounce than yours. An attempt to make-fun because....? you still don't understand? Or just need believe someone with PGA next to their name?

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, geesecougar2 said:

 

Yes on the backswing, given that the face opens 45* before P2. Sometimes I have an issue getting the club behind me by P2 when I apply the face rotation concept, and I end up slicing (I think this is getting the club "stuck")?

 

Sounds to me like you're sending the club behind you early with some combination of right wrist bend and right elbow bend with excessive rotation of the shaft, and probably also while moving your hands out toward the target line at the same time. Otherwise, consider the fact that you can rotate the club face open with the head sitting on the ground behind the ball without moving the club off the ball (let alone behind you).

 

Then, if you do apply the concept improperly, it's easy to get the club in a bad position at the top, at which point all bets are off as to whether you're going to be able to get the club back to the ball without hitting a slice.

 

I always go back to one of Monte's first videos where he addresses a ball on a tall "tee" that essentially makes his swing plane horizontal. He slowly turns back and then through, and you can see how gradually -- and how much -- the face "opens" on the way back and "closes" on the way through. The bending of his right arm and gradual rotation of his forearms accommodate or cause (depending on your perception) the opening of the face such that the club never leaves the [horizontal] plane. If he were to roll his wrists immediately and fold his right wrist back, the club would immediately drop way under the plane -- or, at a standard inclined swing plane, go inside/behind him, as you're describing.

 

Once you see this video, go ahead and pull up some pros' swings on your phone, and then turn your phone so that their swing planes appear horizontal to you. It'll show you that the club and arms and wrists are moving like Monte shows in his video, but on an inclined plane. It's pretty wild.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

In the words of Sean Foley's kid: "That's facts!" And as usual, they're on the opposite side of things from R2L. Maybe he should go back to righty since he's so often on the wrong side of things.

 

 

Why start now? It's only been over a decade. Oh, crap, I just looked: make that over 15 years now!

 

 

No thanks. It's not a golf shot hit on a golf course, and it's wildly off topic.

And to that…

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Point was you didn't hit anywhere near 6" behind the ball. OT, though, so that's all you get. You and others might recall that I teach a pitch shot where the bounce engages. PING's "Glide" wedges were named because we said the word "Glide" was better than the word "bounce" in our book, and they liked that, so they named their wedges "Glide."

 

Big fans of using the bounce here where and when it's appropriate. But six inches? Hell no. Three inches? I'll demonstrate that on a mat occasionally, and how you can get a "usable" miss out of it, but it's not a "good" or "great" shot.

 

Big fan of the bounce here… but to pretend you should use it on every shot ever, ha ha ha. No. That's silly.

 

 

Would love to see him hit six inches behind it on some hardpan. 🤣

 

 

Yeah. No ground disturbance before the ball.

 

Anyway…

 

 

That's facts!

 

 

That's facts!

 

 

Clearly, ability (or lack thereof) to play high level golf doesn't say much about how well you understand the golf swing, the physics or biomechanics of the golf swing, or have a grasp of feel vs. real.

 

 

Even if that were remotely true… what they have measured is often in direct contradiction to what your buddy feels like he's doing and that all should do in the golf swing. At best he pitches feels as if they're real; at worst, he doesn't understand the golf swing very well at all because he doesn't know what really happens in a good one.

 

 

And when the intent fails to entirely change a 20-handicapper's backswing and downswing, then what?

 

 

I don't know, but the mods are nowhere to be seen.

 

 

Yep. It's beneficial to know what the best golfers are actually doing.

 

 

The club doesn't do much on its own. We make the club do 99% of what it does.

 

 

Yes, it makes the ball come down after it's hit. 😀 In the golf swing, its role is very small.

 

 

🤣 Nailed it.

 

As for the clubface rotating… Brian won't like it as it's two of his sworn enemies (😀), but… 

 

Sadly, there are a large % of instructors out there (some famous ones) that will debate much like this.  “I have been teaching for 30 years and made people better before all this tech garbage came along.”  When they argue the swing, everything that comes out of their mouth is objectively wrong and they have to deny what the tech says because it doesn’t fit their narrative.  Elite athletes can become good golfers in spite of what they were taught.  By elite athletes, I don’t always mean in the NBA or NFL sense, elite eye hand coordination is included.  You have someone who can hit a marble out of the air with a pencil, you can tell them every possible bad move and they will figure out how to hit the ball solid at the target.  These two groups give those that purvey bad objective info that they help people and they write off the people who don’t improve as uncoordinated, non listening morons.

 

Regular Joe golfers who have heard the range cliches for decades fall into this category too.  Average Joe’s will also believe their feels are universal because it works for them.  
 

I have no problem when people tell me I’m wrong because their personal feels are different from what I say actually happens.  The issue I have is when people try and impart their personal feels as fact to other golfers.  Every course and range has a regular or 2 that does that.  The issue that cracks me up is when the data says X.  Tour players say X is a feel that works for them with problem X.  I show multiple golfers improving LM numbers, aesthetics and ball striking almost immediately trying X.  Then people on the internet say X is bad and will never work because that idea doesn’t work or make sense to them.

 

 

Edited January 12 by MonteScheinblum

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

My C3i wedges have nearly 40 degrees of bounce and I shared a video of them at ground level that you may have overlooked. You actually do not want the leading edge to be close to the ground because that will move the strike higher on the face so it will come out dead and with no spin. Higher bounce encourages the strike to be lower on the face and this actually promotes more spin.  You are mistaken in that you think that engaging the turf behind the ball means you hit it fat on a partial wedge shot when it does not and it is actually very easy to manage.  

 

The shots actually spin more with the bounce engaged because it encourages the strike to be lower on the face and it is very easy to control actually.  The bounce keeps the leading edge from entering the turf so in essence partial wedge shots are executed very similar to a bunker shot. You responded to the video that I posted of tour pros engaging the turf prior the ball in super slo motion so I'm not sure what other proof you are looking for.  There are also videos of me hitting the shots in slo mo also. Your assertion that distance control is made more difficult is incorrect and I assure you trying leading edge chip hitting ball first is orders of magnitude more difficult.  I a going to start a use bounce thread here in a moment to get this conversation out of this thread goin forward. 

40° of bounce? C’mon man….a simple search says they have 12° bounce. 40° bounce and a 2” sole would be hitting above the equator.

 

After gliding through the turf of course.

 

https://www.autopilotgolf.com/lp/c3i/c3i65wedge/#:~:text=Enter the C3i Wedge.,sand – from firm to fluffy.

[Shilgy]

39 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

40 degrees of bounce? Lol. You serious? Those wedges have 12 degrees of bounce.

 

40 degrees...holy moly

Oh crap…I just posted the same without looking at the last page.

[KD1]

1 hour ago, MattC555 said:

Note this is the wedge he is using:

https://www.c3igolf.com/

 

Who knows how that thing works.  Looks like an Alien wedge from back in the day.

 

Is this real? The whole website is like a bad QVC infomercial. You have to wade through a mile of product pitch to figure out they only want $99 (but it's a $129 value!)

[PedronNiall]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

As for the clubface rotating… Brian won't like it as it's two of his sworn enemies (😀), but… 

 

Lots of good retorts above and valid criticisms along with the explanation of facts, but mostly wanted to say thanks for this in addition to having already hitting the button. I love highly technical details about the swing that are explained in a way that golfers at pretty much any level can make sense of and then dig into at more depth if they want to understand the math/science behind what's happening or how it came to be understood. I think that's one of the best quick discussions I've seen on that part of the swing and what happens & why with different club orientations relative to the plane of travel.

 

These are the kinds of things that can help a struggling player grasp the what and why of their issue in a few minutes and accept the need for change, making them a lot more open to what a friend or instructor then shares with them about the best ways to do it. Also super valuable for already good players looking to continue improving or have a better understanding of why what they already do is working so well.

 

I'm glad this thread was started to get the discussion going and eventually made its way back enough to have this gem show up. Really great watch.

[JayMas]

I didn't think it could get any better, but the 65-degree specialty wedge with the widest sole I've ever seen and the claim an effective 40 degrees of bounce was present is too much.

[MattC555]

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

It has a face and more bounce than yours. An attempt to make-fun because....? you still don't understand? Or just need believe someone with PGA next to their name?

 

I was not making fun of the wedge.  I was simply pointing out that it is a very, very different wedge than virtually anyone commenting on this thread is using.  Will techniques translate?  Maybe, but it is worth pointing out.  It shares as much commonality with a traditional wedge as a 7 wood does with a 3 iron. 

[Glock917]

 

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

My C3i wedges

Oh my you were basing all your sermons as the messiah of short game using this!!?? 

 

Wow I dont even know where to start. You cant make this stuff up folks!

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

This is even more comical now. 

You are telling me 😆

[Nels55]

3 hours ago, MattC555 said:

Note this is the wedge he is using:

https://www.c3igolf.com/

 

Who knows how that thing works.  Looks like an Alien wedge from back in the day.

I bought one a few years ago.  Completely worthless for me as I could not hit any kind of shot with it.  It would just stick in the kikuyu grass on any kind of flop shot.  I think that it ended up a Goodwill donation.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I bought one a few years ago.  Completely worthless for me as I could not hit any kind of shot with it.  It would just stick in the kikuyu grass on any kind of flop shot.  I think that it ended up a Goodwill donation.

Clearly you just lack skill and understanding.😉

You’ll just need to watch r2l’s videos again and be amazed.

/s

Edited January 12 by Shilgy

[iacas]

There's another topic for the wedge/short game misguidance, folks. Could we keep this one to the original topic?

[Soloman1]

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

There's another topic for the wedge/short game misguidance, folks. Could we keep this one to the original topic?

 

Yes, this one needs more meat. The wedge/short game one should titled like my favorite meal: turf and turf.

[GwrxMod]

We've received multiple reports about this thread going off topic.

 

Topic title for those who seem to have forgotten:

"90° of Clubface Rotation in a relatively short span"

 

Please get back on topic. Feel free to start another topic with the wedge content...or not.    

 

[Brian Manzella]

Very simply:
 

2D Laying the club off, 100% requires MORE FORCE AND TORQUE to square the club up.

 

We tested it at least 10 different ways.

 

MORE.

[getitdaily]

12 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

Very simply:
 

2D Laying the club off, 100% requires MORE FORCE AND TORQUE to square the club up.

 

We tested it at least 10 different ways.

 

MORE.

So the shallower the shaft the harder you can come down?

[Brian Manzella]

47 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

So the shallower the shaft the harder you can come down?

 

The more "shallow" you are (which is in 2D btw, NOT 3D) the HARDER IT IS TO SQAURE up the club.

 

So the direct answer to your question is: the harder you NEED TO work. 

 

[GolfTurkey]

53 minutes ago, Brian Manzella said:

 

The more "shallow" you are (which is in 2D btw, NOT 3D) the HARDER IT IS TO SQAURE up the club.

 

So the direct answer to your question is: the harder you NEED TO work. 

 

 

This is when things get hard for the average pleb like me, when respected instructors / biomechanists report 180 degree different results,

[cav5]

8 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

This is when things get hard for the average pleb like me, when respected instructors / biomechanists report 180 degree different results,

 

Yes, though i do not believe its there intention, and its not just golf. Want to be even more confused @GolfTurkey? LOL having fun. Which part of the shaft is shallowing? Where does the COM move too. 2D is full of arcs and moving points (ironic). Or maybe the club is just working harder on you?

[cav5]

Call it a problem with authority or whatever experts need for business to boom, but I don't just take it that someones right just because of their data or measurements that could or not be happening, pertinent, or outright irrelevant to whats going on. Its many peoples view that it is but that doesn't make it right or not up to nonexpert questioning. You ever been misdiagnosed by 3 top10 doctors cause what they measured is wrong and then improperly treated while also documenting with them you're own suggested course. I'm glad they treated my "feelings" as just in my head, and trust us we're doctors, and not whats actually happening. I'm sure they also enjoyed my white paper and $$$ leaving their pockets too lol.

 

There are no new physics in the golf swing. Understanding it or not will not make you a better or worse player, as long as your intention applies it well enough. This is not an attempt to obfuscate, simply any further added through possibly correct complex data is just a business. I sell things in plain sight too, its great lol.

 

Everyone likes to claim that there there is no model or I don't teach a model. Yet they measure models. There will always be a space between what we can and cannot see, yet there are many people just on this site and all over the world that claim they can, and measure it too!

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, cav5 said:

Everyone likes to claim that there there is no model or I don't teach a model. Yet they measure models. 

“I’m not a method teacher”

 

Often said by the same teacher:

 

”95% of tour pros do the same things with very small deviations” 

 

😂 

[Zitlow]

[Hidraw]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

 

The "secret" is in the alligator arms!

 

[Zitlow]

9 hours ago, Hidraw said:

 

The "secret" is in the alligator arms!

 

 

This is another good Hogan image posted before by @tthomasgolfer605 about a month ago. 

 

 

 

[Brian Manzella]

Anyone that thinks that if you 2D shallow the club, doing that makes it EASIER to "square the club" isn't thinking about it hard enough.

2D shallowing IS OPENING THE CLUB MORE.

We have unconstrained 3D kinetics from Dr. Nesbit. The guys who think the opposite have flattened to a plane kinetics that have force across the shaft reversing before "p6".....

 

Buyer beware.