The big rebuild - how the finish of the Masters could be as spectacular as the previous holes.

[Hankshank]

https://alistermackenzie.org/maps-plans
 

won’t break any copyright stuff by including pics of the Master plans, including the link to where they all are. Really interesting seeing those plans. The plan was NOT focused on making the current 2 last holes anything but stock holes in the middle of the golf round. There were obviously even plans to have some kind of training facility beside the (then) 9th hole. There are early photos of the old finish before the big swap, with the then 18th having some of the grandeur one usually see on the approach to major tournament finishes.  The swap was allegedly bc of weather conditions on early mornings, but noone dislikes having amen corner and 16-17 on the last 9 supposedly.  but we are left with the finishing two holes on the largest tournament in Golf being nothing out of the ordinary. Something like 14-15 on Sawgrass or 16-17 on East lake(also the result of a swap).  Extremely few rank those two holes high, and the last holes of a tournament should be great, shouldn’t they? Yes, the green area on 17 is pretty tricky and the tee shot on 18 offers a cute view. But really, shouldn’t players anxiousy watch every shot on those two holes?  Should they not be beautiful and grand? And provide the drama the previous holes do?

 

Now, watching the sketches, some  included with topographical information, there is plenty of land where that training facility was planned. And - cannot one see a brook running in the 9-18th valley? Gives food for thought, doesn’t it? The (current) 9th, a short par four or long par 3, same tee as now but ending up close to the brook.  Giving space for something where the 18 has a cute tee shot as now but the approach is not just a slope, but ending up in the much more spectacular area around the current 9th green.  And one can ponder on what water could do to make the tee shot on 17 something the players would fear, not just hit and walk. 
 

Tradition is strong, but a 9 hole swap is an easy fix that will ruin some of the plans as initially set up.

 

So - blasphemy or food for thought?

 

[hollabachgt]

The driving range was originally located between the 9th and 18th. That range was used by the members for a very long time, with the ranges flanking Magnolia Dr being reserved for tournament use.

 

the creek bed that once sat in the valley of the current 1st/9th was dry. From day 1 it was buried under the 9th and by the 50s it was buried under the first.

 

The 17th and 18th may not provide the same birdie chances as other holes on the back side, but I would not classify them as bad closing holes. 17 has loss some character since the falling of the Eisenhower pine, but it’s still a tough birdie for those who need it. 
 

with the proximity to the 7th/8th and 10th holes I don’t see really what changes you could make to either holes, let alone changes that would make the holes substantially better. 
 

As much transformation as Augusta National has gone through in its history it does feel that nothing is off the table, but even then rerouting the final two holes seem less likely than other changes.

[Hankshank]

The proximity to the 7th is probably the trickiest part IF one should have the courage to get 17 and 18 up to par with the previous beautiful and fantastic holes.

 

i do have some ideas but since I don’t want to violate copyrights  and my drawing abilities are limited, to say the very least, I have no means to show them in a clear manner. But that creek in the 9th valley would have to be restored. Otherwise it’s probably impossible, and a dream of the party not being over after 16 is probably totally in vain, even as a dream.

 

Edited April 6 by Hankshank

[Hawkeye77]

Watch the last 40 plus years of available Masters - the “party” isn’t over after 16. 

Always fun to think about changes but  they aren’t switching back or rerouting the finish. 
 

[Hankshank]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Watch the last 40 plus years of available Masters - the “party” isn’t over after 16. 

Always fun to think about changes but  they aren’t switching back or rerouting the finish. 
 

You’re probably right but there is no harm in dreaming, right?

 

Btw, I DO have watched the absolute majority of the last, at least, 25 ys Masters tournaments , Sundays starting the watching when the leader pairing starts, not always liked by members of the family less enthusiastic than me. 
 

and while there is a factor of fatigueness when those pairings comes to the final holes, our timezone is not really adjusted for that tournament, I can think of few moments of elation, caused by the layout or beauty of those last two holes. Phil jumping or Adam screaming could have been on just any hole anywhere, where you can pile up people beside the hole.

 

 

Edited April 6 by Hankshank

[Hawkeye77]

9 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

You’re probably right but there is no harm in dreaming, right?

 

 

I try not not redesign AN even in my head - it’s lightning strike season here now!

[m d g]

 

Is Augusta National the most tweaked golf course in history?

 

Ship of Theseus

In Greek mythology, Theseus, mythical king and founder of the city Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus was replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship?

[StoutKing]

I would settle for bringing back the beautiful MacKenzie bunker shapes.  The bunker on 10 is the most beautiful on the course.

[tatertot]

File this as fixing problems that don't exist.

 

The only change I'd make to Augusta is go back to the more "natural" look the course had in the 70s/early 80s. It's so pristine now, it looks fake.

[gvogel]

ANGC is playing just fine for the lady amateurs from the forward tees.  No reason to change the course; an equipment change should be a priority for the men pros.

[PedronNiall]

The main thing is that 17 & 18 just don't have the surrounding scenery many of the others are known for. None of the splashing creeks or brilliant blooms seen on 12, 15, etc., which kind of builds up the eye candy that simply disappears for the last two holes. 

 

If it weren't for all the extra on the prior layouts then I doubt there'd be much expectation. Besides Augusta's signature holes are there really any other stops where the visuals are so heavily curated? Pebble and any of the famous seaside courses for the Opens in the UK area are spectacular mostly because the ocean is right there roaring against the cliffs. Most of the links courses are gorgeous because they look like they're a part of the already existing landscape. 

 

17 & 18 are simply flat because of all the context that comes before them. I'd imagine it would take some work to make the flowery aesthetic from elsewhere possible around greens that are relatively open to direct sun rather than in the shade of so many copses. 

 

Also keep in mind that how AN looks on TV isn't how it really looks. There are a lot of deliberate restrictions on fields of view and where cameras are allowed to pan as well as what photos are shown on AN's official media to curate the picture that's painted for most. Maybe the best move would be to use AI to present a more pleasant background at 17 & 18 alongside the piped-in bird trills?

[tiderider]

14 hours ago, Hankshank said:

https://alistermackenzie.org/maps-plans
 

won’t break any copyright stuff by including pics of the Master plans, including the link to where they all are. Really interesting seeing those plans. The plan was NOT focused on making the current 2 last holes anything but stock holes in the middle of the golf round. There were obviously even plans to have some kind of training facility beside the (then) 9th hole. There are early photos of the old finish before the big swap, with the then 18th having some of the grandeur one usually see on the approach to major tournament finishes.  The swap was allegedly bc of weather conditions on early mornings, but noone dislikes having amen corner and 16-17 on the last 9 supposedly.  but we are left with the finishing two holes on the largest tournament in Golf being nothing out of the ordinary. Something like 14-15 on Sawgrass or 16-17 on East lake(also the result of a swap).  Extremely few rank those two holes high, and the last holes of a tournament should be great, shouldn’t they? Yes, the green area on 17 is pretty tricky and the tee shot on 18 offers a cute view. But really, shouldn’t players anxiousy watch every shot on those two holes?  Should they not be beautiful and grand? And provide the drama the previous holes do?

 

Now, watching the sketches, some  included with topographical information, there is plenty of land where that training facility was planned. And - cannot one see a brook running in the 9-18th valley? Gives food for thought, doesn’t it? The (current) 9th, a short par four or long par 3, same tee as now but ending up close to the brook.  Giving space for something where the 18 has a cute tee shot as now but the approach is not just a slope, but ending up in the much more spectacular area around the current 9th green.  And one can ponder on what water could do to make the tee shot on 17 something the players would fear, not just hit and walk. 
 

Tradition is strong, but a 9 hole swap is an easy fix that will ruin some of the plans as initially set up.

 

So - blasphemy or food for thought?

 

not sure this kind of thought, in the week before the tournament, is going to present the best karma for the ticket lottery if you partake ... but if you don't partake, then karma isn't an issue ... 

 

there's something to be said for the ordinary ... two par fours ... 17's drive isn't all that difficult, but the green offers some challenge ... 18's drive is a bit difficult ... if you need a birdie, hit three good shots ... the par 4 is the quintessential golf hole ... and 18 used to be driver/mid iron, but now is a good bit shorter ... 

[Chunkitgood]

7 hours ago, tatertot said:

File this as fixing problems that don't exist.

 

The only change I'd make to Augusta is go back to the more "natural" look the course had in the 70s/early 80s. It's so pristine now, it looks fake.

 

And so well “groomed” that hitting in the woods doesn't seem much of a penalty.

[Hankshank]

9 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

The main thing is that 17 & 18 just don't have the surrounding scenery many of the others are known for. None of the splashing creeks or brilliant blooms seen on 12, 15, etc., which kind of builds up the eye candy that simply disappears for the last two holes. 

 

If it weren't for all the extra on the prior layouts then I doubt there'd be much expectation. Besides Augusta's signature holes are there really any other stops where the visuals are so heavily curated? Pebble and any of the famous seaside courses for the Opens in the UK area are spectacular mostly because the ocean is right there roaring against the cliffs. Most of the links courses are gorgeous because they look like they're a part of the already existing landscape. 

 

17 & 18 are simply flat because of all the context that comes before them. I'd imagine it would take some work to make the flowery aesthetic from elsewhere possible around greens that are relatively open to direct sun rather than in the shade of so many copses. 

 

Also keep in mind that how AN looks on TV isn't how it really looks. There are a lot of deliberate restrictions on fields of view and where cameras are allowed to pan as well as what photos are shown on AN's official media to curate the picture that's painted for most. Maybe the best move would be to use AI to present a more pleasant background at 17 & 18 alongside the piped-in bird trills?

My definite feeling is that those two holes were planned to be stock holes somewhere in the middle, as they indeed were.

 

I have never seen a 9 hole swap yet where gains haven’t been coupled with drawbacks. The 18 holes of a golf course arent just a bunch of holes, it do matter when they appear on a round of golf. A good ninth hole does not necessarily make it as an 18th.  In the case of East Lake, they really had a problem. That par three finish was a bit quirky. In that case the swap solved that problem but you got a bland finish with 16 and 17 being totally anonymous. 
 

My first home course, where I played 100s of rounds they did the swap, just to get the last hole closer to the club house and to make the tee shot on the first tee reasonably makeable. But that ended up having the party being over at 9th. 
 

A swap should come with measures taken to regain the rythm of the golf round. And in the case of AN, the challenge would have been, IMHO of course, easier than on East Lake.

 

 

Edited April 7 by Hankshank

[Hankshank]

My observations are of course for the Masters Tornaments. For the members, men of probably some mean age, the finish should maybe something of a slowdown after the ordeals on 15 and 16. And taking the approach shot on 18 from where probably noone at the club house areas sees might be comforting.

 

Edited April 7 by Hankshank

[stevesteven1]

Augusta should mandate driver cc at 200 max. 
 

drama returns 

[hollabachgt]

7 hours ago, Hankshank said:

My definite feeling is that those two holes were planned to be stock holes somewhere in the middle, as they indeed were.

 

I have never seen a 9 hole swap yet where gains haven’t been coupled with drawbacks. The 18 holes of a golf course arent just a bunch of holes, it do matter when they appear on a round of golf. A good ninth hole does not necessarily make it as an 18th.  In the case of East Lake, they really had a problem. That par three finish was a bit quirky. In that case the swap solved that problem but you got a bland finish with 16 and 17 being totally anonymous. 
 

My first home course, where I played 100s of rounds they did the swap, just to get the last hole closer to the club house and to make the tee shot on the first tee reasonably makeable. But that ended up having the party being over at 9th. 
 

A swap should come with measures taken to regain the rythm of the golf round. And in the case of AN, the challenge would have been, IMHO of course, easier than on East Lake.

 

 

Mackenzie originally designed the course in its current hole sequence. It was flipped late in construction and was played that way for the 1934 Masters. By the opening of the course for the Fall 1934 season it had been flipped back and has stayed that way since. 
 

if they had not returned the routing to its current sequence it would have take more than 60 years until the TV audience would have been introduced to Amen Corner and, thus there would have been a very good chance the 12th and 13th would not be held in the high esteem they are today.

[gvogel]

The clubhouse sits on a high point on the property, and where the home was when the property was an orchard or whatever it was.  The exciting holes sit down by the creek, where of course the water comes into play.  Let''s say that 16 was the finishing hole - a par 3 just doesn't do it for most folks.  Let's say that the clubhouse was behind 15, or even 13.  The members wouldn't be able to look out over the whole course.

 

The ninth and 18th greens sit at the highest point on the property, and the members at the clubhouse can view the play on those greens and the players playing up to those greens.  That works very well.  Unfortunately the 17th and 18th holes have to return players to the clubhouse.  How else would you achieve that?  It seems to me that the course works pretty well, given the disparity in height between the clubhouse and the 12th and 13th holes.

[Hankshank]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

Unfortunately the 17th and 18th holes have to return players to the clubhouse.  How else would you achieve that?

Restoring the creek in the 9th valley, 9th converted to short par four giving plenty of space for a majestic par 5 18th.  17th is of course tricky, but imagine a pond, surrounded by beautiful shrubbery and water plants as the source for the 9 th valley brook, situated on the area of the savannah before the 17th green.

 

(All said - A way more simple fix - find some kind of large tree that withstands some gusts and plant in on the Eisenhower spot. That tree at least gave some spunk to the 17th)

 

 

Edited April 7 by Hankshank

[Nard_S]

Nothing wrong with 18 as a finishing hole.

[mosesgolf]

I like it just the way it its. 17th is bland.   18th is no easy walk in the park.  Tee shots right is often times bogey and ask Greg Norman what happened in 1986 on the 18th hole.  Typical Greg shot under extreme pressure.  Augusta would not be Augusta if the founders did not switch the 9s.  That front nine sets the stage and back nine is definitely the dramatic finale.

[hollabachgt]

10 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

(All said - A way more simple fix - find some kind of large tree that withstands some gusts and plant in on the Eisenhower spot. That tree at least gave some spunk to the 17th)

 

 

That was done a couple of decades ago in a location behind the Eisenhower tree. Knowing the tree was nearing its end of life they had planned for its successor. Unfortunately it can down in a storm as well and thy chose not to replace it.

[hollabachgt]

36 minutes ago, Hankshank said:

Restoring the creek in the 9th valley, 9th converted to short par four giving plenty of space for a majestic par 5 18th.  17th is of course tricky, but imagine a pond, surrounded by beautiful shrubbery and water plants as the source for the 9 th valley brook, situated on the area of the savannah before the 17th green.

the creek in the 1st /9th valley was dry when Jones and MacKenzie starter working on the property, it was a wash for when it rained heavily. To restore it would be to just dig a ditch.

 

If you played the 18th from the current tee box to the current 9th green you would only add 40 yards to the hole, you’d be playing to a very awkward side hill green and you’d take away all the patron seating around the green. It would be a terrible finishing point for the tournament as no one could see the green, unlike the current 18th which sits in amphitheater. 

As “boring” as the 17th may look it typically plays as one of the more difficult holes on the course. Last year its average for the week was a 1/4 stroke over par. What you’re proposing will not be a value add to the competition. It would more than likely severely detract from the 9th, 17th, and 18th holes. While they may not be as flashy as you’d like, all three holes play a key role in the tournament as they are today.

 

[Konklifer]

I wouldn't mind seeing a creek through 9 and a tree come back to 17. Other than that, I don't have issues with the current layout. 18 is easy enough to be birdied, which makes watching someone who NEEDS to make one much more compelling.

[Shilgy]

They’ve already over-tinkered.  The formerly par 4.5 13th is a result. Not many “momentous decisions” being made as a layup is in order for most.

 

So instead of having it a big decision we have player after player hitting a flip wedge third which so many posts say they see too many of already!🤣

[isaacbm]

18 is frankly a perfect finishing hole. Long demanding shaped tee shot required.
Difficult semi blind second shot.
Long uphill walk after a tiring day. 
Multi tiered green. 

Love it!! 

[Obee]

On 4/5/2024 at 11:39 PM, Hankshank said:

https://alistermackenzie.org/maps-plans
 

won’t break any copyright stuff by including pics of the Master plans, including the link to where they all are. Really interesting seeing those plans. The plan was NOT focused on making the current 2 last holes anything but stock holes in the middle of the golf round. There were obviously even plans to have some kind of training facility beside the (then) 9th hole. There are early photos of the old finish before the big swap, with the then 18th having some of the grandeur one usually see on the approach to major tournament finishes.  The swap was allegedly bc of weather conditions on early mornings, but noone dislikes having amen corner and 16-17 on the last 9 supposedly.  but we are left with the finishing two holes on the largest tournament in Golf being nothing out of the ordinary. Something like 14-15 on Sawgrass or 16-17 on East lake(also the result of a swap).  Extremely few rank those two holes high, and the last holes of a tournament should be great, shouldn’t they? Yes, the green area on 17 is pretty tricky and the tee shot on 18 offers a cute view. But really, shouldn’t players anxiousy watch every shot on those two holes?  Should they not be beautiful and grand? And provide the drama the previous holes do?

 

Now, watching the sketches, some  included with topographical information, there is plenty of land where that training facility was planned. And - cannot one see a brook running in the 9-18th valley? Gives food for thought, doesn’t it? The (current) 9th, a short par four or long par 3, same tee as now but ending up close to the brook.  Giving space for something where the 18 has a cute tee shot as now but the approach is not just a slope, but ending up in the much more spectacular area around the current 9th green.  And one can ponder on what water could do to make the tee shot on 17 something the players would fear, not just hit and walk. 
 

Tradition is strong, but a 9 hole swap is an easy fix that will ruin some of the plans as initially set up.

 

So - blasphemy or food for thought?

 

Nice post. Not sure it's necessary, as the current 18th definitely provides plenty of drama nowadays, but at least you did a bit of research. 

[Hankshank]

I wonder if Mackenzie/Jones when swapping nines considered a further swap - current 8/9 with current 17/18. That would have been doable. A bit of a walk both in and out but well, 8 is more spectacular than 17 and 9 has some of the approach grandeur that the 18 lacks. That would at least have been a possibility. 

[gvogel]

20 hours ago, Shilgy said:

They’ve already over-tinkered.  The formerly par 4.5 13th is a result. Not many “momentous decisions” being made as a layup is in order for most.

 

So instead of having it a big decision we have player after player hitting a flip wedge third which so many posts say they see too many of already!🤣

13 was playing into the wind this week, and it was windy.  Under more benign conditions, it will play as a par 4.5.

[Hankshank]

But would that be doable? A walk from the current 16 to current 8 and a walk from the current 7 to current 17? Or are the walks too long, or will any hole be unsafe?

EDIT : Found a decent map, the 7-17 forest aint no forest but more a line of trees and the distance from 16 to 8 is probably too long.... sooo close the master swap! 

 

 

Edited April 17 by Hankshank