Can a 4-handicap man beat an LPGA pro?

[Forged4ever]

Serena Williams is apparently the greatest tennis player of all time, and she was destroyed by some guy who was ranked 500th in the world or something.

 

I'm actually not aware of many matches between LPGA players and high-ranked male amateurs.

They don't make mistakes. The 4 handicaps do.

Excellent point Leo and aside from the difference in their physical games, the greatest difference and gap that I see is in the mental game.

 

I am not being cynical however most Ams have no idea of the mental game level of ANY Pro that has survived and made a living Playing golf for any length of time because 99%+ of Ams have a spotty mental game at best and Probably 98%+ have none to speak of so they have a hard time evaluating, appreciating and relating to something that they do not possess, use or really understand in application.

 

Mental Game

 

HUGE

 

HUGE Gap

 

Nice post Bro!

 

All the Best,

RP

[Obee]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

[Obee]

To answer your question. No.

 

I have played regularly with an LPGA professional and haven't seen a scratch golfer that could come close to beating her.

 

ps: she played in a local tournament a few years ago against male college bound golfers. The course played 6800 and she finished second. When she was even younger she beat a PGA Master Professional at 6600 yards, and he was a legit 300+ off the tee.

 

For those you you who think a scratch, let alone a +4 can beat a LPGA Tour pro, keep dreaming. She played with the best golfer at our practice facility, he's a scratch, and his draw dropped at how well she played.

 

People don't seem to understand just how good these girls are. Put your egos away, you will get shellacked.

 

Sigh....

[Forged4ever]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

Yeppers.......

 

MAYBE 1 in 50....

 

Always,

Richard

[Obee]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

Yeppers.......

 

MAYBE 1 in 50....

 

Always,

Richard

 

The harder the course, the more certain it becomes. On an easy course of, say, 6300, 70.0/119, it becomes less automatic simply because it's more of a putting contest on an easy course. If a 4 gets hot, maybe he shoots a 71, and the plus capper misses everything and shoots 73. That can happen.

 

But on a tough course, it would be rare.

[Forged4ever]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

Yeppers.......

 

MAYBE 1 in 50....

 

Always,

Richard

 

The harder the course, the more certain it becomes. On an easy course of, say, 6300, 70.0/119, it becomes less automatic simply because it's more of a putting contest on an easy course. If a 4 gets hot, maybe he shoots a 71, and the plus capper misses everything and shoots 73. That can happen.

 

But on a tough course, it would be rare.

Yea, I was basing it on the tracks back here, back tees at 6800-7200yds. As I've said, a 4~ would never enter any of the swats and for Championship Flight of the Club and the Inter-Club Match Play Championship the ccut-off is 2.5~

 

Have a nice weekend and continued success Bro :)

 

My Best,

Richard

[nikegal]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

Yeppers.......

 

MAYBE 1 in 50....

 

Always,

Richard

 

The harder the course, the more certain it becomes. On an easy course of, say, 6300, 70.0/119, it becomes less automatic simply because it's more of a putting contest on an easy course. If a 4 gets hot, maybe he shoots a 71, and the plus capper misses everything and shoots 73. That can happen.

 

But on a tough course, it would be rare.

Yea, I was basing it on the tracks back here, back tees at 6800-7200yds. As I've said, a 4~ would never enter any of the swats and for Championship Flight of the Club and the Inter-Club Match Play Championship the ccut-off is 2.5~

 

Have a nice weekend and continued success Bro :)

 

My Best,

Richard

It is actually 2.0~ sweetheart. It used to be 3.5~ however they were not competitive for the spots in Match Play. See you soon.:) Lovingly, M

[Shilgy]

To answer your question. No.

 

I have played regularly with an LPGA professional and haven't seen a scratch golfer that could come close to beating her.

For those you you who think a scratch, let alone a +4 can beat a LPGA Tour pro, keep dreaming. She played with the best golfer at our practice facility, he's a scratch, and his draw dropped at how well she played.

 

Good morning Bro :)

 

Are you saying that a +4 will not beat a LPGA Tour Pro?

 

Regarding a scratcb, I do not believe that a "normal" Am scratch would however there are quite a few(I know of 3 in the Pittsburgh area) that were elite Ams/Tour Pros who got on with life, family and jobs and they hover around scratch/2~ and they are still capable of rekindling days gone by.

 

One such Player is Frank Fuhrer III who might Play once/twice a month and he went for a 66(I posted 65 earlier but I was wrong) last year from the blacks at Oakmont. Granted, those rounds are few and far between however these guys are still capable of turning back the clock.

 

As a +2.8 in 2012, I Played 8 games where a 4~ was in the field and and I never lost to him in those 8 rounds, head up.

 

Have a great weekend :)

 

All the Best,

Richards

Hey Richard, I gotta ask. So often you bring up Jones versus Hagen and the difference between an am and playing for your livelihood. Why not in this thread?

You're a dick.....

 

All my Love,

RP

Really? Why? It was a serious question. That's the last response expected.

[pinhigh27]

To answer your question. No.

 

I have played regularly with an LPGA professional and haven't seen a scratch golfer that could come close to beating her.

 

ps: she played in a local tournament a few years ago against male college bound golfers. The course played 6800 and she finished second. When she was even younger she beat a PGA Master Professional at 6600 yards, and he was a legit 300+ off the tee.

 

For those you you who think a scratch, let alone a +4 can beat a LPGA Tour pro, keep dreaming. She played with the best golfer at our practice facility, he's a scratch, and his draw dropped at how well she played.

 

People don't seem to understand just how good these girls are. Put your egos away, you will get shellacked.

 

Sean2,

 

You think the 75-100th ranked LPGA players have greater than a men's +4 rating? Consensus here seems to be coalescing around +1 to +2 for the ladies and at least +6 for the men.

 

Not sure, but I think Sean was referring to a 4 hc as stated in the thread title, not a plus 4.

 

The whole thread got side-tracked from a 4 hc, to a +4. (or scratch, or +1, or +2, or +3)

 

....But, we're still having fun with it on page 18, and counting.

 

IT didn't get sidetracked. No one believes a 4 would beat an lpga tour player so we moved on to a different question. There is nothing to debate when everyone is on one side of the debate

[Forged4ever]

For those you you who think a scratch, let alone a +4 can beat a LPGA Tour pro, keep dreaming. She played with the best golfer at our practice facility, he's a scratch, and his draw dropped at how well she played.

 

Good morning Bro :)

 

Are you saying that a +4 will not beat a LPGA Tour Pro?

 

Regarding a scratcb, I do not believe that a "normal" Am scratch would however there are quite a few(I know of 3 in the Pittsburgh area) that were elite Ams/Tour Pros who got on with life, family and jobs and they hover around scratch/2~ and they are still capable of rekindling days gone by.

 

One such Player is Frank Fuhrer III who might Play once/twice a month and he went for a 66(I posted 65 earlier but I was wrong) last year from the blacks at Oakmont. Granted, those rounds are few and far between however these guys are still capable of turning back the clock.

 

As a +2.8 in 2012, I Played 8 games where a 4~ was in the field and and I never lost to him in those 8 rounds, head up.

 

Have a great weekend :)

 

All the Best,

Richards

Hey Richard, I gotta ask. So often you bring up Jones versus Hagen and the difference between an am and playing for your livelihood. Why not in this thread?

You're a dick.....

 

All my Love,

RP

Really? Why? It was a serious question. That's the last response expected.

Bro, I was kidding~

 

I don't normally sign off to guys with "All My Love," LMAO

 

My Best,

RP

[wobgon]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

Yeppers.......

 

MAYBE 1 in 50....

 

Always,

Richard

 

The harder the course, the more certain it becomes. On an easy course of, say, 6300, 70.0/119, it becomes less automatic simply because it's more of a putting contest on an easy course. If a 4 gets hot, maybe he shoots a 71, and the plus capper misses everything and shoots 73. That can happen.

 

But on a tough course, it would be rare.

Yea, I was basing it on the tracks back here, back tees at 6800-7200yds. As I've said, a 4~ would never enter any of the swats and for Championship Flight of the Club and the Inter-Club Match Play Championship the ccut-off is 2.5~

 

Have a nice weekend and continued success Bro :)

 

My Best,

Richard

Josh Scobee told me he cleaned up in your swat......Said it was easy money, second only to the cash he took off of Tiger......He also did a great job for the Steelers by the way....... :aikido:

[Shilgy]

Bro, I was kidding~

 

I don't normally sign off to guys with "All My Love," LMAO

 

My Best,

RP

Geez, heartbroken twice in one month. First Nike and now you lol :)

[Forged4ever]

Obee,

 

As a +2, I'd be interested to hear how often you would, if at all, lose to a 4 in a straight up match? Thanks.

 

Very infrequently. Maybe 1 in 50 rounds? And I'm a +1. Used to be +2 - +3.5, but no longer.

The harder the course, the more certain it becomes. On an easy course of, say, 6300, 70.0/119, it becomes less automatic simply because it's more of a putting contest on an easy course. If a 4 gets hot, maybe he shoots a 71, and the plus capper misses everything and shoots 73. That can happen.

 

But on a tough course, it would be rare.

Yea, I was basing it on the tracks back here, back tees at 6800-7200yds. As I've said, a 4~ would never enter any of the swats and for Championship Flight of the Club and the Inter-Club Match Play Championship the ccut-off is 2.5~

 

Have a nice weekend and continued success Bro :)

 

My Best,

Richard

Josh Scobee told me he cleaned up in your swat......Said it was easy money, second only to the cash he took off of Tiger......He also did a great job for the Steelers by the way....... :aikido:

Bro, we felt really badly for his partner, an Apprentice who is an excellent Player, +3.2 to 3.4, and he had a nice day but Scobee was dead weight, cost him $1500, and for an asst., as you probably know, that's serious money. While you can lose that kind of money, and that's why Maddie said to have $1500 handy, you gotta get smoked.

 

Then Scobee said he hadn't heard of Nathan Smith before we teed off.

 

After Nathan dropped 4 birdies on him in 6 holes, I'm pretty sure that he won't ever forget him, LMAO

 

He also asked Maddie if she Played the "reds."

 

She just smiled and said no, she would be Playing the same tees as him and the guys, haha(She had a 72 and beat him by 6, LMAO).

 

He might be the worst kicker we've had in years, lol.

 

However, he was a solid kicker for Jax, unfortunately his leg just went dead.

 

He was pretty cocky before, especially for a kicker, LMAO. He was silent as a lamb post-round. Got his shower, came in and evened up with Nathan and his partner and split, lol. Those who don't have to be home usually sit around and shoot the s** for an hour or so but Scobes scooted, lol. I don't blame him, a 78 is what a 4~ would shoot, not a +2.7.

 

Friggin kickers, lol

 

And the Stillers went from contenders to they're gonna be lucky to get to 10-

 

Stay well Bro :)

 

My Best,

RP

[nikegal]

I had a 73 sweetheart. He was a nice guy. He hit a good ball, he was just a little wild off of the tee and cost himself 3-4 strokes there and with approaches and probably another 2-3 on the greens. You guys aren't always the most welcoming to "newbies" though he did come on strong when he asked Joe if Nathan's +4.8 was legit, lolol. Like you say, karma baby, hahaha. Sweet dreams. Lovingly, M

[deadsolid...shank]

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the average scoring stats on the Symetra Tour.

 

Kathleen Ekey sits 72nd out of 143 players with a 73.692 scoring average. I looked at her last 20 scores and the 10 best of those averaged exactly 70.00. I'm guessing that would put her (men's) handicap around 0 at best and around 3 at worst?

 

So how would she, being average on the Symetra Tour, fare against a 4 handicap man?

I don't believe that it is an apples to apples comparison to take a tour pros tourney rounds and compare them to some Am's handicap rounds for a myriad of reasons,the least of which the average 4- am standing on a Symmetra tee with two pros and a gallery around him, regardless how small, would be fortunate not to vomit on himself. I am speaking to the "normal" 4~ Am, not guys who have been elite or Pros and got on with life. Have a nice day :) Maddie

 

I think though that at times you underestimate some Ams Richard. A lot of guys who get to that level (lower single, i.e. Our "4") are people who have competed in various sports for quite some time. They've been under the gun. While the pressure is obviously different, I think there are a lot out there who would not vomit on themselves. I think there are plenty who would actually up the level of their game. I'm not making any comment on if the four can win, or even be competitive, just saying not all of them are going to succumb to nerves.

[Forged4ever]

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the average scoring stats on the Symetra Tour.

 

Kathleen Ekey sits 72nd out of 143 players with a 73.692 scoring average. I looked at her last 20 scores and the 10 best of those averaged exactly 70.00. I'm guessing that would put her (men's) handicap around 0 at best and around 3 at worst?

 

So how would she, being average on the Symetra Tour, fare against a 4 handicap man?

I don't believe that it is an apples to apples comparison to take a tour pros tourney rounds and compare them to some Am's handicap rounds for a myriad of reasons,the least of which the average 4- am standing on a Symmetra tee with two pros and a gallery around him, regardless how small, would be fortunate not to vomit on himself. I am speaking to the "normal" 4~ Am, not guys who have been elite or Pros and got on with life. Have a nice day :) Maddie

 

I think though that at times you underestimate some Ams Richard. A lot of guys who get to that level (lower single, i.e. Our "4") are people who have competed in various sports for quite some time. They've been under the gun. While the pressure is obviously different, I think there are a lot out there who would not vomit on themselves. I think there are plenty who would actually up the level of their game. I'm not making any comment on if the four can win, or even be competitive, just saying not all of them are going to succumb to nerves.

Bro, #1, that was Maddie's post not mine, #2, I WAS one of those Ams that you speak of, where my mental "game" was honed on a football field starting at age 7yo and running till I was 23yo. I just happened to be able to hit a golf ball a little.

 

#3, I don't think that I've underestimated lower cap Ams, it's just that with the exception of losing to Frank Fuhrer III in the quarters of the MP Championship in 2010, when he was a 1.5~ and I was a +1.8(I lost 1 down with a 70 to his 69, Par 70), I have not lost to an individual with a cap north of scratch in either medal or match since 2009, following my second shoulder recon surgery. Regarding Frankie, well, he is not your Typical 1.5~. In the '80's he was a 1st Team AA for the Tar Heels, a Walker Cupper and had his Tour Card for two years.

 

They may well have the mental game, however they don´t have the physical game or they wouldn't be a 4~. I've just never had one get "lucky" with me in a tournament, that's all.

 

I am not putting down a 4~ or 3~ however there is a reason that the Club tournamemt boards along with the WPGA(Western PA Golf Association) dropped the cap to 2~ for the top Players' Clubs Championships(Us, Oakmont, Fox Chapel GC & St. Clair CC) and the MP Championship-

 

4~'s & 3~'s weren't competitive.

 

Obviously I am not speaking for Madison, only myself

 

Take care Bro :)

 

All the Best,

RP

[Smash Factors]

Not sure if someone posted this already. I didn't bother going through all 19 pages of this thread to find out.

If you want to know what you should shoot based upon your index, here is the formula:

Course Handicap + Course Rating = What you should score.

With that in mind, lets compare the projected score of an average LPGA player vs a 4 handicap.

Lets say your so called "Average LPGA" pro has an index of +3.5. If this gal plays a course from the red tees with a slope of 129 and rating of 73.6 (Torrey Pines), her course handicap will be +4 (-4). Subtract that from the course rating and we come up with a 69. So on that course from those tees if she plays to her projection she will shoot a 69. Keep in mind, par for her from those tees is 74. She needs to shoot a -5 to meet her projection.

The slope and rating at that same course from the [u]easiest[/u] mens tees (Gold) is 133 / 72.5. A 4 index player will have a course handicap of 5. Add that to the rating and it becomes 77 / 78.

Obviously, there is no contest here. Not only would he need to shoot around 8 strokes below his projection just to tie her, but it would likely to be the lowest round of his life. If her index was +2, it still favors her by several strokes. The only way he could possibly beat her is if they played from the same tees.

Lets say that from gold tees she shoots +2 (74). The guy would need to shoot three strokes below his projection just to tie her. In order for him to actually win, she would have to shoot poorly (+6 maybe?) and he would have to shoot at least his projection of 77.

So yeah, it's possible. I think if you did it over several rounds, she would win the majority of the time (If not every time).

[Forged4ever]

I never say anything is "impossible" however the odds of a 4~ beating a LPGA Player are about as close to impossible as one will come. #1, to even compare a 4's scores for cap with the scores earmed by a LPGA Player in Professional Tourney rounds is a joke.

 

I know one thing-

 

Those that have Played with a LPGA Player know exactly of what I speak.

 

A 4~ is a 4~ for a reason....

 

A Tour Pro is on Tour for a reason.

 

I split with an eastablished LPGA Player from 7055yds(Palmer tees, Isleworth)-

 

A 4~ doesn't even fantasize about our scores.

 

A 4~ gets beat like a drum Keith Moon used to beat on.

 

It's as close to impossible as you're gonna get.

 

I'm not saying if she just Played like total s*** and had a horrible round and he Played well that day that it couldn't happen however think for a second having even used such a scenario to extrpolate a victory?

 

I'd be embarassed!!

 

A 4~????

 

C'mon man, LMAO

 

WTF?????

 

All the Best,

RP

[deadsolid...shank]

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the average scoring stats on the Symetra Tour.

 

Kathleen Ekey sits 72nd out of 143 players with a 73.692 scoring average. I looked at her last 20 scores and the 10 best of those averaged exactly 70.00. I'm guessing that would put her (men's) handicap around 0 at best and around 3 at worst?

 

So how would she, being average on the Symetra Tour, fare against a 4 handicap man?

I don't believe that it is an apples to apples comparison to take a tour pros tourney rounds and compare them to some Am's handicap rounds for a myriad of reasons,the least of which the average 4- am standing on a Symmetra tee with two pros and a gallery around him, regardless how small, would be fortunate not to vomit on himself. I am speaking to the "normal" 4~ Am, not guys who have been elite or Pros and got on with life. Have a nice day :) Maddie

 

I think though that at times you underestimate some Ams Richard. A lot of guys who get to that level (lower single, i.e. Our "4") are people who have competed in various sports for quite some time. They've been under the gun. While the pressure is obviously different, I think there are a lot out there who would not vomit on themselves. I think there are plenty who would actually up the level of their game. I'm not making any comment on if the four can win, or even be competitive, just saying not all of them are going to succumb to nerves.

Bro, #1, that was Maddie's post not mine, #2, I WAS one of those Ams that you speak of, where my mental "game" was honed on a football field starting at age 7yo and running till I was 23yo. I just happened to be able to hit a golf ball a little.

 

#3, I don't think that I've underestimated lower cap Ams, it's just that with the exception of losing to Frank Fuhrer III in the quarters of the MP Championship in 2010, when he was a 1.5~ and I was a +1.8(I lost 1 down with a 70 to his 69, Par 70), I have not lost to an individual with a cap north of scratch in either medal or match since 2009, following my second shoulder recon surgery. Regarding Frankie, well, he is not your Typical 1.5~. In the '80's he was a 1st Team AA for the Tar Heels, a Walker Cupper and had his Tour Card for two years.

 

They may well have the mental game, however they don´t have the physical game or they wouldn't be a 4~. I've just never had one get "lucky" with me in a tournament, that's all.

 

I am not putting down a 4~ or 3~ however there is a reason that the Club tournamemt boards along with the WPGA(Western PA Golf Association) dropped the cap to 2~ for the top Players' Clubs Championships(Us, Oakmont, Fox Chapel GC & St. Clair CC) and the MP Championship-

 

4~'s & 3~'s weren't competitive.

 

Obviously I am not speaking for Madison, only myself

 

Take care Bro :)

 

All the Best,

RP

 

Sorry Richard, I see that it was Maddie's post I quoted.

 

I guess my thinking is pretty simple. If a person has a history of performing in pressurized competitive athletic situations they are capable of actually performing better in this situation. We all know people who seem to thrive as the pressure amps up.

 

No, the four is not going to win. All I'm saying is that for many of them they are going to lose simply because they're not as good, not because they've wilted under the pressure of the situation.

[chrismikayla]

Not to get further off topic but I wonder how many shots a +2 would need to be given to be competitive with a high level PGA pro? Like Phil, Kaymer, Stenson, Furyk, Rory, Kuchar, etc.

[Obee]

Not to get further off topic but I wonder how many shots a +2 would need to be given to be competitive with a high level PGA pro? Like Phil, Kaymer, Stenson, Furyk, Rory, Kuchar, etc.

 

He would need 700 yards, which is about 4 strokes. See my thread from several months ago where I covered this exact topic. :grin:

[bluedot]

Not sure if someone posted this already. I didn't bother going through all 19 pages of this thread to find out.

 

If you want to know what you should shoot based upon your index, here is the formula:

 

Course Handicap + Course Rating = What you should score.

 

With that in mind, lets compare the projected score of an average LPGA player vs a 4 handicap.

 

Lets say your so called "Average LPGA" pro has an index of +3.5. If this gal plays a course from the red tees with a slope of 129 and rating of 73.6 (Torrey Pines), her course handicap will be +4 (-4). Subtract that from the course rating and we come up with a 69. So on that course from those tees if she plays to her projection she will shoot a 69. Keep in mind, par for her from those tees is 74. She needs to shoot a -5 to meet her projection.

 

The slope and rating at that same course from the easiest mens tees (Gold) is 133 / 72.5. A 4 index player will have a course handicap of 5. Add that to the rating and it becomes 77 / 78.

 

Obviously, there is no contest here. Not only would he need to shoot around 8 strokes below his projection just to tie her, but it would likely to be the lowest round of his life. If her index was +2, it still favors her by several strokes. The only way he could possibly beat her is if they played from the same tees.

 

Lets say that from gold tees she shoots +2 (74). The guy would need to shoot three strokes below his projection just to tie her. In order for him to actually win, she would have to shoot poorly (+6 maybe?) and he would have to shoot at least his projection of 77.

 

So yeah, it's possible. I think if you did it over several rounds, she would win the majority of the time (If not every time).

 

I agree with you basic premise, but I think you even understated the gap a bit.

 

When you say that the course rating plus your course handicap is what you "should shoot", I think that you mean for that player to "play to his handicap". The USGA estimates that AVERAGE scores tend to be about 3 shots higher than that, simply because the index is more an expression of potential than of average performance.

 

So if the 4 index has a course handicap of 5 on a course with a course rating of 70.0, then to play to his handicap, he has to shoot 75 or better. But he'll do that well less than half the time, and his AVERAGE score will be more like a 78.

 

We also know, though, that as indexes get lower, so to does the RANGE of scores that a given player is likely to shoot. So if we assume that the LPGA player is "only" a scratch golfer on that same course (and I think she'd almost certainly be better than scratch) then she'll win even more often than the raw index numbers project.

 

To oversimplify just a tiny bit, for the 4 to win, his BEST round out of 20 has to happen on the very same day as her WORST round out of 20, and even then, it isn't a sure thing. With money on the line, I'd bet one out of 30, but no more often than that.

[Forged4ever]

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the average scoring stats on the Symetra Tour.

 

Kathleen Ekey sits 72nd out of 143 players with a 73.692 scoring average. I looked at her last 20 scores and the 10 best of those averaged exactly 70.00. I'm guessing that would put her (men's) handicap around 0 at best and around 3 at worst?

 

So how would she, being average on the Symetra Tour, fare against a 4 handicap man?

I don't believe that it is an apples to apples comparison to take a tour pros tourney rounds and compare them to some Am's handicap rounds for a myriad of reasons,the least of which the average 4- am standing on a Symmetra tee with two pros and a gallery around him, regardless how small, would be fortunate not to vomit on himself. I am speaking to the "normal" 4~ Am, not guys who have been elite or Pros and got on with life. Have a nice day :) Maddie

 

I think though that at times you underestimate some Ams Richard. A lot of guys who get to that level (lower single, i.e. Our "4") are people who have competed in various sports for quite some time. They've been under the gun. While the pressure is obviously different, I think there are a lot out there who would not vomit on themselves. I think there are plenty who would actually up the level of their game. I'm not making any comment on if the four can win, or even be competitive, just saying not all of them are going to succumb to nerves.

Bro, #1, that was Maddie's post not mine, #2, I WAS one of those Ams that you speak of, where my mental "game" was honed on a football field starting at age 7yo and running till I was 23yo. I just happened to be able to hit a golf ball a little.

 

#3, I don't think that I've underestimated lower cap Ams, it's just that with the exception of losing to Frank Fuhrer III in the quarters of the MP Championship in 2010, when he was a 1.5~ and I was a +1.8(I lost 1 down with a 70 to his 69, Par 70), I have not lost to an individual with a cap north of scratch in either medal or match since 2009, following my second shoulder recon surgery. Regarding Frankie, well, he is not your Typical 1.5~. In the '80's he was a 1st Team AA for the Tar Heels, a Walker Cupper and had his Tour Card for two years.

 

They may well have the mental game, however they don´t have the physical game or they wouldn't be a 4~. I've just never had one get "lucky" with me in a tournament, that's all.

 

I am not putting down a 4~ or 3~ however there is a reason that the Club tournamemt boards along with the WPGA(Western PA Golf Association) dropped the cap to 2~ for the top Players' Clubs Championships(Us, Oakmont, Fox Chapel GC & St. Clair CC) and the MP Championship-

 

4~'s & 3~'s weren't competitive.

 

Obviously I am not speaking for Madison, only myself

 

Take care Bro :)

 

All the Best,

RP

 

Sorry Richard, I see that it was Maddie's post I quoted.

 

I guess my thinking is pretty simple. If a person has a history of performing in pressurized competitive athletic situations they are capable of actually performing better in this situation. We all know people who seem to thrive as the pressure amps up.

 

No, the four is not going to win. All I'm saying is that for many of them they are going to lose simply because they're not as good, not because they've wilted under the pressure of the situation.

You're absolutely right about former collegiate/Professional athletes handling the pressure. Again, I'm not speaking for Maddie however we've talked a lot about it and most guys/gals who competed on a large stage usually do not have a problem transferring that to their golf game.

 

I've always talked about two types of golfers/Players because my Teacher did and he believed there were two types~

 

One that arrived at their cap of say 4~ from the scratch/Plus side going north and one hitting 4~ from the other side, dropping south from above, as a mid/high single or double cap.

 

One has experiences on their mental movie screen and in their mind of withstanding and Playing under Pressure, as they've "been there done that" and the other does not, almost a "glad to be here" mentality, almost a "I hope I have my best round today" mentality.

 

I can't walk and chew gum presently however in 2012, Bro, I'd eat, chew and spit out that guy 24/7 all day every day and this is the mentality that I carry inside of me. I'm just sharing it here.

 

An LPGA Tour Pro??????

 

I realize that there are exceptions and the majority of those exceptions are indeed former athletes from other sports, such as football, baseball, basketball and hockey, though there are others.

 

The other thing, at least around WPa, and that is that a 4~ traveling south to that number will have no/very little experience Playing in big money or Championship flight tourneys, as the cut-off is scratch to 2.5~.

 

This is HUGE, regardless of one's athletic background because I can tell you that hitting a 192yd 5i into a flag on the 5th sudden death hole with your Professional Partner standing next to you observing along with 550-600 people or successfully navigating a 12' birdie putt on the 17th green agsinst a +4.8 with 4-500 surrounding the green and the lead and tourney riding on the putt is something that most 4~'s don't have.

 

This is all that I was trying to say and any Pro, regardless of the Tour, has these feelings imprinted in their mind.

 

I meant no disrespect by my comments and was just stating my opinions based on my experiences.

 

Have a great week Bro :)

 

My Best,

Richard

[chrismikayla]

I'll have to look it up but I believe Jerry Rice was a +2 or so when he played a couple events on the Nationwide Tour but wasn't that competitive.

 

EDIT: He was listed as a 0.7 back the. I wonder why he thought he would be competitive LOL.

[Forged4ever]

I'll have to look it up but I believe Jerry Rice was a +2 or so when he played a couple events on the Nationwide Tour but wasn't that competitive.

 

EDIT: He was listed as a 0.7 back the. I wonder why he thought he would be competitive LOL.

83-76(par 71)

 

He was "happy" with the 76, lol

 

Actually that 76 is solid with a triple, double and 3 bogies.

 

He brings up a great and critical point about slowing everything down in the second round.

 

Whether on a golf course or a football field, that is critical to Playing well.

 

http://www.golf.com/ap-news/jerry-rice-misses-cut-nationwide-tour-event

 

Have a great week Bro :)

 

My Best,

RP

[deadsolid...shank]

I'll have to look it up but I believe Jerry Rice was a +2 or so when he played a couple events on the Nationwide Tour but wasn't that competitive.

 

EDIT: He was listed as a 0.7 back the. I wonder why he thought he would be competitive LOL.

83-76(par 71)

 

He was "happy" with the 76, lmao

 

Actually that 76 us solid with a triple and a double.

 

http://www.golf.com/ap-news/jerry-rice-misses-cut-nationwide-tour-event

 

Have a great week Bro :)

 

My Best,

RP

 

Jerry as a .7 shooting a 76 on a tour setup might give an idea of what type of handicap player it would take to compete with the average LPGA pro.

 

I'm just guessing here (and I'm sure I'll get "corrected"), but I doubt the average (roughly 75th rated I believe is the number that has been used) LPGA pro does any better than 76 on a Web.com setup.

[Forged4ever]

I'll have to look it up but I believe Jerry Rice was a +2 or so when he played a couple events on the Nationwide Tour but wasn't that competitive.

 

EDIT: He was listed as a 0.7 back the. I wonder why he thought he would be competitive LOL.

83-76(par 71)

 

He was "happy" with the 76, lmao

 

Actually that 76 us solid with a triple and a double.

 

http://www.golf.com/ap-news/jerry-rice-misses-cut-nationwide-tour-event

 

Have a great week Bro :)

 

My Best,

RP

 

Jerry as a .7 shooting a 76 on a tour setup might give an idea of what type of handicap player it would take to compete with the average LPGA pro.

 

I'm just guessing here (and I'm sure I'll get "corrected"), but I doubt the average (roughly 75th rated I believe is the number that has been used) LPGA pro does any better than 76 on a Web.com setup.

I'm gonna wait for the Stats Bois to chime in because I've never Played with one in that category, lol.

 

I would think that she too would be "happy" with a 76.

 

All the Best,

RP

 

[bluedot]

I'll have to look it up but I believe Jerry Rice was a +2 or so when he played a couple events on the Nationwide Tour but wasn't that competitive.

 

EDIT: He was listed as a 0.7 back the. I wonder why he thought he would be competitive LOL.

 

Here's even a better example: John Smoltz. Smoltz is a +1.7 (he's been as low as a +4) and plays from the tips at Hawks Ridge in GA, where the course rating/slope is 76.1/150. He can hit it a mile, and plays in money games, BIG money games, all the time. For many years, he lived in a home with 4 holes in the "backyard", though he has sold that home since. In other words, he is VERY serious about his golf game. Arguably one of the great clutch pitchers in MLB history, Smoltz was never afraid of the big stage, and was a great closer as well as a great starter; the ONLY pitcher in MLB history with 200 wins and 200 saves.

 

In 2011, playing on a sponsor's exemption in a Buy.com (then Nationwide) event at Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, GA, Smoltz shot 84-87 to miss the cut by 27 shots and finish 9 shots behind the nest-highest score in the field.

 

There is a Bobby Jones quote that I think applies here: "There is golf, and then there is tournament golf." Like Jones, I don't think we should mistake one for the other.

[Forged4ever]

I'll have to look it up but I believe Jerry Rice was a +2 or so when he played a couple events on the Nationwide Tour but wasn't that competitive.

 

EDIT: He was listed as a 0.7 back the. I wonder why he thought he would be competitive LOL.

There is a Bobby Jones quote that I think applies here: "There is golf, and then there is tournament golf." Like Jones, I don't think we should mistake one for the other.

This should be pinned-

 

As an aside, I lost $550 to John in one such game at Bay Hill. I had a 72 to lose by 3-4 head up. My Tour Bud also lost $3-400, I forget the exact amount as he gave John one a side and John lost by one to him head up, either 68-69 or 69-70.

 

He can definitely stick.

 

As I've often said, I was good but not elite-

 

From the 3 rounds I saw of John, IF he could've gotten Tourney experience, he was elite.

 

John had that next gear that the elite Ams have. Whether he had the 2-3 that a Tour Pro has is anybody's guess, lol.

 

Great post!!

 

My Best,

RP

 

*Later Ed: The last paragraph should be pinned regarding golf and Tourmey golf.

[Forged4ever]

The difference when I speak of mental is this-

 

Most Ams try to hit the ball on the "sweet spot" of the iron/club, for higher caps, maybe they visualize a quarter(I doubt they even visualize this at all, I'm "just sayin." God do I hate that saying, lmao. I've become soooo passive aggressive. Just sayin :) ), a mid cap a nickel and a low cap a dime.

 

Well, the sweet spot is just that, a "spot" or a point as in needle point, and that is what guys like Isaac, Mitch, FireBlade and STU on up to the Tour Bois and Gals "see" and that is what they hit, again and again again.

 

It is probably hard to comprehend however the internal confidence that one develops by visualizing that and then achieving that is incredible, better than any other high imaginable.

 

There is a hell of a difference between a dime and a needle point.

 

THAT control and mastery of their clubhead allows them to perform under pressure.

 

Then you just rachet that up the higher up the competitive golf food chain ya go and you may get an idea of the skill level involved.

 

Then again, maybe not....

 

Haha, there's that passive aggressive s*** again, lmao

 

Apologies :)

 

Have a great week!!

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends,

RP