Slow Play - getting worse and courses don't care

[Titleist-Golfer]

Why have golf courses given up on making pace of play a priority?

I love golf. My family loves golf, but we'd like to play at a good pace - a pace that allows you to create a rhythm to a round - something around 3 hrs. We play fast - no plumb bobbing allowed. I'm a +1.8, wife's a 9, daughters a 12 index. We know about ready golf. We don't search for 20 mins for a $0.50 pinnacle in brush. We don't take a zillion practice swings. We replace our divots, rake our bunkers, and fix our ball marks on greens. We'd pay a premium to play a round in less than 4 hours. Heck, I'd pay a 20% (after the round) to any course that will allow me to finish in under 4 hrs; 30% if finished in 3.5 hrs.

.... so the question is - "Why the heck don't golf courses encourage all golfers to speed up?" Why have golf courses given up on making pace of play a priority?

Things courses have done to encourage slow play:

1. Removed GPS in carts (economy I guess)
2. Cart path only (ugh)
3. Design courses you can't walk
4. Don't have a Marshall
5. Allow 5somes
6. Growing out the rough

I even had one pro shop tell me, "we don't have a cattle prod you know". Really? Even heard of a Marshall? Actually, same course had some 80+ old guy driving around the course. When asked if he was the Marshall, he answered, "I guess so". Second question, "so how's the course today?", he replied, "oh, it's just a beautiful day out here." "I meant, what's the pace of play?". "Oh, well it's a Saturday afternoon, so people are just enjoying themselves." - another smile. "Don't you think they'd enjoy themselves more if they were able to finish in less than 5 hours?" "Huh, well I just don't know." OMG!!!!!

Why has it become common practice for a course's standard response to questions on pace of play on weekends to say, "well it's a typical weekend afternoon - you know, kind of slow." Is that acceptable to you? Why not do something about it.

I retired from the Navy in 2007 - one of the benefits was playing golf all over the world. Playing in Australia though had to be a highlight, both in 1997 and again in 2001. I recall playing a round at Royal Melbourne (extremely gracious of them to allow us on) in 1997. Everyone walked (unless you were handicapped) and the pace was good. One around the 14th hole, I recall spending a bit more time than usual looking for balls when a member, who left his bag 60 yds or so behind, walked up to us and graciously but firmly said, "if you gentlemen can't play a round in 3.5 hrs or less, kindly find another course." He was perfectly right. We moved on and finished in just over 3 hrs, then had a beer with the group behind us.

So what's the answer?

If I ran a course, here's how I'd address pace of play:

1. Make sure design allows walking (don't make it 1/4 mile between holes with 300' uphill climbs - a la Pechanga)
2. Hire a Marshall and teach them how to do their job
3. If a person stops for lunch at the turn - they lose their spot and can't just cut back in when they feel like it
4. Cut the rough - leave long enough to be penal for average golfer, but not so long that people can't find their balls
5. Provide 30% discount (after the round) on merchandise for golfers who finish in less than 4 hrs

Thoughts?

[Titleist-Golfer]

I love golf. My family loves golf, but we'd like to play at a good pace - a pace that allows you to create a rhythm to a round - something around 3 hrs. We play fast - no plumb bobbing allowed. I'm a +1.8, wife's a 9, daughters a 12 index. We know about ready golf. We don't search for 20 mins for a $0.50 pinnacle in brush. We don't take a zillion practice swings. We replace our divots, rake our bunkers, and fix our ball marks on greens. We'd pay a premium to play a round in less than 4 hours. Heck, I'd pay a 20% (after the round) to any course that will allow me to finish in under 4 hrs; 30% if finished in 3.5 hrs.

.... so the question is - "Why the heck don't golf courses encourage all golfers to speed up?" Why have golf courses given up on making pace of play a priority?

[size="3"][color="#ff0000"][b]Things courses have done to encourage slow play:[/b][/color][/size]
[list=1][*]Removed GPS in carts (economy I guess)[*]Cart path only (ugh)[*]Design courses you can't walk[*]Don't have a Marshall[*]Allow 5somes[*]Growing out the rough[/list]I even had one pro shop tell me, "we don't have a cattle prod you know". Really? Even heard of a Marshall? Actually, same course had some 80+ old guy driving around the course. When asked if he was the Marshall, he answered, "I guess so". Second question, "so how's the course today?", he replied, "oh, it's just a beautiful day out here." "I meant, what's the pace of play?". "Oh, well it's a Saturday afternoon, so people are just enjoying themselves." - another smile. "Don't you think they'd enjoy themselves more if they were able to finish in less than 5 hours?" "Huh, well I just don't know." OMG!!!!!

Why has it become common practice for a course's standard response to questions on pace of play on weekends to say, "well it's a typical weekend afternoon - you know, kind of slow." Is that acceptable to you? Why not do something about it.

I retired from the Navy in 2007 - one of the benefits was playing golf all over the world. Playing in Australia though had to be a highlight, both in 1997 and again in 2001. I recall playing a round at Royal Melbourne (extremely gracious of them to allow us on) in 1997. Everyone walked (unless you were handicapped) and the pace was good. One around the 14th hole, I recall spending a bit more time than usual looking for balls when a member, who left his bag 60 yds or so behind, walked up to us and graciously but firmly said, "if you gentlemen can't play a round in 3.5 hrs or less, kindly find another course." He was perfectly right. We moved on and finished in just over 3 hrs, then had a beer with the group behind us.

So what's the answer?
[b]
[size="3"][color="#006400"]If I ran a course, here's how I'd address pace of play:[/color][/size][/b]
[list=1][*]Make sure design allows walking (don't make it 1/4 mile between holes with 300' uphill climbs - a la Pechanga)[*]Hire a Marshall and teach them how to do their job[*]If a person stops for lunch at the turn - they lose their spot and can't just cut back in when they feel like it[*]Cut the rough - leave long enough to be penal for average golfer, but not so long that people can't find their balls[*]Provide 30% discount (after the round) on merchandise for golfers who finish in less than 4 hrs[/list]Thoughts?

[wombat50]

All good points and I particularly like the 5th suggestion of the 30% discount for under 4 hours.
One time our foursome had a Marshall suggest we speed our play up and the whole time it was the group or groups in front of us stacking it up. A good Marshall dealing with slow play and at times drunkenness has to require some good social skills and experience. I think some don't have a clue about those things.
A sign on the first tee covering basic etiquette and pace of play would help a great deal IMO.

[farmer]

I don't disagee with anything you say, but I think it all comes down to money. Courses want as many people on the course as possible, tall rough is cheaper to maintain than short rough, they need income from cart rentals and course layout is frequently done with the idea of having as many lots for sale as possible. Some suggestions-1. no on course lessons by amateurs trying to teach significant others (pet peeve) 2. if you've hit it, say, six times, pick it up 3. a good point you make, golf balls should not be considered cherished family heirlooms.

[Greenie]

I started a thread a while back about 6 hr. rounds being the new trend. I played a round this yr. that took us 6 1/2 hrs. to play. Quite frankly if a course can't take care of the pace of play or isn't concerned about it, then maybe they should be concerned when enough of us go elsewhere. I am certainly not going back to the place of my 6 1/2 hr. round.

[Dizz]

The funny thing about pace of play is that everyone has an opinion on it. Everyone also plays golf for different reasons, if I'm playing with friends or family I wanna play well, play fast, but still enjoy myself. If I'm waiting on every shot then I'm not enjoying myself. Personally I think there is no reason it should ever take a 4 some more than 3 to 3.25 hours to complete 18 holes. When I took the PAT in a 3 some where obviously we are finishing every hole and playing by the rules we played in 6 hours 5 mins...36 holes. We took a 10 minute lunch break after 18 and had casual play hold us up before the head pro moved them out of the way. Problem is, not everyone feels the same away. A lot of people make an entire day out of playing 18 holes with friends or family. Not everyone plays golf for the same reasons as us, and the game is already losing people because of cost, start regulating pace of play and more people will be put off.

[tElihu]

Courses need to do a better job of stressing and enforcing the pace of play. It's to their benefit to get golfers in and out anyhow. This includes, but is not limited to, better trained marshals as well as actually enforcing slow play penalties (i.e. making groups let others through and even removing a group that cannot play in an acceptable pace).

I once played a new upscale course in Ohio a long time ago that had strict pace of play rules in place. They posted them, the starter reminded us of them and the rangers were aware of the pace on the course. We teed off at 11:30 on the weekend and finished in just under 4 hours. And their tee sheet was booked the entire day.

[Greenie]

[quote name='Dizz' timestamp='1289236689' post='2780183']
The funny thing about pace of play is that everyone has an opinion on it. Everyone also plays golf for different reasons, if I'm playing with friends or family I wanna play well, play fast, but still enjoy myself. If I'm waiting on every shot then I'm not enjoying myself. Personally I think there is no reason it should ever take a 4 some more than 3 to 3.25 hours to complete 18 holes. When I took the PAT in a 3 some where obviously we are finishing every hole and playing by the rules we played in 6 hours 5 mins...36 holes. We took a 10 minute lunch break after 18 and had casual play hold us up before the head pro moved them out of the way. Problem is, not everyone feels the same away. A lot of people make an entire day out of playing 18 holes with friends or family. Not everyone plays golf for the same reasons as us, and the game is already losing people because of cost, start regulating pace of play and more people will be put off.
[/quote]


You could look at it the other way too. My friends and I are being put off by slow play. I recently played in a scramble with a reunion of all the golfers that worked or worked for the co. I work for. Many die hard golfers in that large group. Now I am talking many rounds and alot of equipment bought each yr. from a high majority of the golfers at the scramble. Many of them said they just didn't play as often any more because of slow play. We actually compared notes on where you could go to play a faster round. I myself play 30- 50 rounds a yr.
So you regulate the pace of play and more people are put off. Exactly what type of golfer would be put off? The occasional golfer playing 4 times a yr? The ball hunters? Cell phone talkers?. People seem to forget they are not the only ones on the course.

[Ronzo]

There is another side to this, as well. I am disabled, but I find it easy to play a round by myself in 3 hours, and with a foursome in 3:30 to 3:45. My experience with so-called marshals has been mainly poor. Last year, I was putting for birdie when this dimbulb drove up next to the green and began screaming -- literally -- that we had an open hole in fromt of us, and we had to speed up. It was the middle of a hot South Florida afternoon, and there were NO people behind us. We were on pace for a 3:30 round as a twosome. I missed the putt, and I was livid. The course owner got a good piece of my mind at the end of the round.

I agree that training is the key, for an intelligent man or woman. But some so-called marshals are untrainable. They have very poor interpersonal skills, they have little understanding of the game in some cases, and they are hired at as little cost to the facility as possible. You get what you pay for.

Contrast that with Ballyowen at the Crystal Springs complex in New Jersey. The marshals clearly state what is expected, but they survey the course and players, and determine the proper course of action before making contact with a group. That round was one of the best experiences I've ever had with my son, and everything went as smooth as silk from the course's perspective as well.

Again, you get what you pay for.

[rollnsf]

Most courses will not do ANYTHING about this because they don't perceive it to impact their bottom line. If the average time per round was published somewhere, I would definitely use that info to select which course I play.

One other key element of slow play that doesn't get emphasized enough - playing the correct tees. I wish more courses would make players play the appropriate tees.

[larrybud]

[quote name='Titleist-Golfer' timestamp='1289232914' post='2780094']
.... so the question is - "Why the heck don't golf courses encourage all golfers to speed up?" Why have golf courses given up on making pace of play a priority?
[/quote]

First off, I think some courses are. But the answer for the rest of them is that they're very short sighted in terms of revenue. They think that trying to get people to move will cost them revenue. It may, in the very short term. But if pace of play continues to be an issue at a course, it will drive players from there. I know I don't play a couple of courses in my area any more because I don't want to be out there for 5 hours.

Your story about the marshall almost mimics what happened to me yesterday. It was about 50 degrees here, sunny, nice fall day. This top end course wasn't very crowded however. We teed off as a 2-some, and quickly caught up to a slow 3-some in front of us. As we get to the 4th hole we see they're held up by an even slower 4 some, and the course was completely clear after that (you can see a couple of holes ahead at this point). Now, I don't expect a 4 some to play as fast as a pair, but please know a bit about etiquette as we easily could have played through and reversed the order of us 3 groups.

So we talked to the marshall on the 6th hole about the situation and he basically said "Yeah, it's slow out here today", and I said "well, why don't you talk to these two groups?" His reply was "Yeah, the one guy was looking for a ball for a really long time...". And I said "Yeah, we saw that, as we had 3 groups at the same time ON A PAR 3!! Why don't you say something?" His response "I'm not sure I can do anything about it".

So in essence, he was useless. He didn't want to talk to anyone, and he just wanted to drive around and enjoy the sunny day. The course could save $10 an hour and not even have this guy out there, because he didn't do anything all day except tell us the obvious, that it was slow.

Finally after we played the 8th, and again we caught up to the 3some in front of us as the 4 some was looking for balls, we skipped 9 and headed to 10 and looped back around after 18 to finish #9, but it was ridiculous.

[golfortennis]

larrybud is on to the problem. Courses are so scared of ticking off the foursome that is holding things up, and not worrying about the 15 groups behind them that will reconsider playing there.

It is just ridiculous the way they don't seem to care about slow play. They figure the dollar came in today, and they won't worry about it until it's too late.

[Titleist-Golfer]

Yes, but how can courses not know that the faster groups play, they get more money today as well as keep everyone happy so they get more tomorrow, next week, next month ...

[puttingmatt]

Slow play is the result of slow golfers, Each golfer should
be TIMELY when playing. When you go to the course, and
see that it is busy, One should try harder not to be the reason
for the slow play on a busy course . Golfers should police
themselves, not Marshalls !!!

[toddnt]

Most munis dont care because they're just happy to get you money.. Had a 5er today and wont be going back to that course!

[Augster]

I have a very easy fix for you.

Play earlier or play later. I would suggest earlier. If your group is only going to be you, your wife, and your daughter, get up before dawn and be first out. You can play as fast as you'd like.

[Titleist-Golfer]

Don't like playing in the morning - wet grips, etc.

[Jordan J. Caron]

http://www.underfour.com/

A pretty cool idea....

[Titleist-Golfer]

[quote name='puttingmatt' timestamp='1289279264' post='2781620']
Slow play is the result of slow golfers, Each golfer should
be TIMELY when playing. When you go to the course, and
see that it is busy, One should try harder not to be the reason
for the slow play on a busy course . Golfers should police
themselves, not Marshalls !!!
[/quote]

While I agree with you in theory ... when was the last time you saw the SLOW group ... you know, the group holding up the entire course, suddenly step aside and let the 10 groups behind them play through or pick up and skip forward a full hole or two like I've seen Marshall's make them do at well managed courses?

[MadGolfer76]

Totally agree. Try to look at the bright side, though;

1) You get to spend 5 hours with your wife and daughter instead of two. (Not being sarcastic).

2) Your putting stats should have markedly improved.

3) You probably burned off all the calories from any beer you drank (?) instead of just some of it.

This may be a good time to brush up on some good "tour posing." You know, walking off yardages, 7-8 practice swings, tuck your left sleeve, get over the ball, back-off, test the wind, set up to it again, "visualize" the shot, do some other stuff, and then pull the trigger. lol

What always kills me is how a group can take fifteen minutes from the tee to the green, but finish on the green itself in 2 minutes. That said, though, I think a lot of people who play golf do so to relax and for the social aspect. Those of us who are there to work on our games and post a score just have to suck it up.

I played a round about a month ago that was 6+ hours. Brutal. One of the groups ahead of us snuck in a couple dozen beers in their staff bags and things just went downhill from there. The marshall didn't do anything and I totally get that. This economy does not allow allow beggars to be choosers. Courses need every greens fee, and if it comes down to long rounds or no rounds...I choose no rounds. Oops, I mean [i]long[/i] rounds...right?

[stage1350]

Course managers are fearing ANY revenue loss.

They are happy with a 6 hour round as long as the group buys at least a case of beer.

[SOONERMAGIC]

[size="5"]$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


[/size][size="2"]There is your answer.

Marshalls cost money, cutting the rough costs money, GPS costs money, overseeding costs money so thats why its cart paths only until the seed takes, allowing a 5 some lets an extra player give you money.

As far as course design, sheesh man. I dont think they had your whining in mind when they built the course.

Its a gentleMANS game. Not a whiney 14yr old girls game. I guess thats what they had in mind when they designed the course. Not to mention that silly little thing called topography. jk

As for the 30% off for finishing in under 4hours, well. Honestly the mark up on most in store merchandise isnt a whole lot and we couldnt afford to let people skip 2 or 3 holes to go on a 30% off shopping spree. [/size]

[grizzlyblades]

There are golfers and there are GOLFERS! Most of us on this site are GOLFERS, and we know about etiquette on the course! However, I don't think it's the individual as it's more of the groupings that causes slow play. I say take away 4/5-some groups and just make it a two-some. It's stinks when you have two guys in the group whom all hit it beyond 200 yrds, then there are the other guys in the same group who have to catch up, then you have to wait for all 4/5 guys in the group to hit their 2nd and 3rd shot. Let's not even discuss the green situation. Or better yet make it ONLY 4/5 grouping.

Now about people who take two off the tee then play another ball on the green, which makes no difference because they mishit that balls, now they have to look for those extra balls they hit, which causes slow play. It pisses me off when there are people waiting to tee off on the same hole.

[BostonBob]

Seems to me that correct thing to do is vote with your feet and take your wallet elsewhere if the pace of play isn't what you want. Purely anecdotally, this summer I found what appeared to be a correlation between the cost of the round and the speed of play (and definitely the quality of the beer girls ...cart contents).

Sad to say, pace of play may become just another market differentiator.

[Pweb44]

A big part of the problem with pace of play is your never going to reach a consensus as to acceptable. What may be an acceptable pace for me may be too slow for you and too fast for the next guy.

A few courses I play around my area have a clock set up by 2 or 3 tees set to show the pace by what would have been the time you left the first tee. As an example if you tee'd off at 10:30 and when you reached the 6th hole if the time didn't read 10:30, then you have an idea of your pace. IE if the clock showed 10:15 then you were ahead of the pace, if it showed 10:45 then you were playing slow and need to pick up the pace. Therefore each time you passed a clock set up on the course if you are playing the correct pace as determined by the course then the time displayed should be showing the tee time you had when you started your round.

[draw1]

This is a big reason why people join private golf clubs...

[Pweb44]

I don't find private courses any less prone to slow play than semi private or public courses. This summer I was invited by a friend to play a round with him at a private course he is a member and I found it to be slower than the public courses in my area. We were pushing 5 hours for the round. The biggest thing I noticed was the chatting on the tee boxes by members. They would get to the tee, one would tee up, hit then they would continue their conversation for a while longer.

[Pepperturbo]

Slow play... it amazes me just how intolerant and or unaware people can get. There's a struggling economy out there. As a result rounds per day are dramatically down, that means whether private or public, there's less money to operate the course and its departments. The revenue taken in by restaurants and bars is typically relied upon to offset other department operating cost. Course management has to get creative and cut back to keep the course open.

Removing GPS saves $1500-2500 per month, as does eliminating the costs associated with marshals. Lengthy rough is the result of cutting back on superintendents ground crew numbers and payroll. Cart path "only" is normally tied to conditions and aeration, so gripping about that is beyond me. How courses are designed has more to do the property layout, and surrounding developments which is why the course probably exists in the first place which has nothing to do with walking. Besides, today the trend is to take a cart, that's noticeable by looking at the waistlines of the average golfer. And, 5somes are out for a few reasons. Whether or not 5somes are slow as everything to do with who makes up the 5some. I've been a part of a 5some that played faster then a 3somes... so the number by itself isn't the cause of slow play.

[Blues Golfer]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1289407716' post='2783863']
Slow play... it amazes me just how intolerant and or unaware people can get. There's a struggling economy out there. As a result rounds per day are dramatically down, that means whether private or public, there's less money to operate the course and its departments. The revenue taken in by restaurants and bars is typically relied upon to offset other department operating cost. Course management has to get creative and cut back to keep the course open.

Removing GPS saves $1500-2500 per month, as does eliminating the costs associated with marshals. Lengthy rough is the result of cutting back on superintendents ground crew numbers and payroll. Cart path "only" is normally tied to conditions and aeration, so gripping about that is beyond me. How courses are designed has more to do the property layout, and surrounding developments which is why the course probably exists in the first place which has nothing to do with walking. Besides, today the trend is to take a cart, that's noticeable by looking at the waistlines of the average golfer. And, 5somes are out for a few reasons. Whether or not 5somes are slow as everything to do with who makes up the 5some. I've been a part of a 5some that played faster then a 3somes... so the number by itself isn't the cause of slow play.
[/quote]

1. If rounds per day are down, why do they need to cram 5 people in a group?

2. Marshals are mostly ornaments, no loss there.

3. "How courses are designed has more to do with property layout..." is glossing over the most important point of the problem with American golf. Golf did not originate and it's not meant to be played through a housing development. I have been on way too many courses where people's houses were essentially in the rough. Too many courses put hundreds of yards between greens and tees. Too many courses have elaborate clubhouses that represent too much overhead. And too many courses were not designed to manage maintenance costs, they were designed to maximize revenue from the sale price of the houses around the course.

"which is why the course probably exists in the first place, which has nothing to do with walking." Actually, the course has nothing to do with GOLF, and everything to do with real estate. I walk to play. I take a cart only when my 11 year old plays with me, and even then I make him walk 9.

4. That "trend" toward riding in a cart you talk about was created by the courses designed not to be walked, and enforced by the clubhouse overhead that could not be paid UNLESS EVERY GOLFER WAS FORCED TO PAY FOR A CART. I have paid for carts and walked anyway, just to make the point that the game was meant to played on foot.

5. A fivesome is not faster than a threesome, unless the threesome is playing too @#$#%@# slow.


Want fast play? Raise the green fees and ban carts. Problem solved overnight.

Will some courses close? Yes. We need more parks anyway.

[Sean2]

One thing that no one has mentioned is eight minutes between tee times. How can an average foursome finish a hole in eight minutes? Why are there eight minute tee times? Revenue. As long as there are eight minute tee times there will be slow play. No way around it.