Swing weight factors in relation to parts

[donuts]

Hi quick question.   I have a SIM driver with Hzrdus Green 70g stock length.  
It’s currently a D6.

It’s either too long or too heavy as I like the feel choked up one inch.    This makes it feel roughly D0.   
So, do I like the feel of 1” shorter or DO?

Would anyone recommend cutting 1” and leaving it D0 or keeping stock length and lowering weight to D0?

Thanks!

[Stuart_G]

59 minutes ago, donuts said:

Hi quick question.   I have a SIM driver with Hzrdus Green 70g stock length.  
It’s currently a D6.

It’s either too long or too heavy as I like the feel choked up one inch.    This makes it feel roughly D0.   
So, do I like the feel of 1” shorter or DO?

Would anyone recommend cutting 1” and leaving it D0 or keeping stock length and lowering weight to D0?

Thanks!

 

Either or both.  Only way to tell is to reduce the head weight to get the swing weight down w/o reducing the length and then compare.  And no, a heavier butt or grip weight to lower the swing weight isn't the same thing.

 

[Pepperturbo]

On 3/22/2021 at 2:06 AM, Stuart_G said:

That's why it's usually better getting over length irons that come out of the factory that way instead of trying to extend a standard set.

 

That's true, except isn't it also true, most OEM's no longer make various head weights to accommodate different shaft lengths.  It used to be when an OEM offered graphite shafts, club-heads were a different weight from the heads put on steel heavier weight shafts.

[Stuart_G]

21 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

That's true, except isn't it also true, most OEM's no longer make various head weights to accommodate different shaft lengths.  It used to be when an OEM offered graphite shafts, club-heads were a different weight from the heads put on steel heavier weight shafts.

 

The OEM's have always been a bit crazy - the majority of graphite shafts don't need different weight heads (particularly the modern ones).   So if your basing your statement that they aren't making lighter weight heads because they don't use lighter weight heads with graphite shafts - then I'm not sure that's all that conclusive.  

[Liveonce]

If I put a callaway epic speed 4w head onto a shaft to play at 42.5, how would I make the swing weight proper? Callaway builds their 4w at 43.25 for reference so taking off an entire inch I would guess. 

[joostin]

18 hours ago, Liveonce said:

If I put a callaway epic speed 4w head onto a shaft to play at 42.5, how would I make the swing weight proper? Callaway builds their 4w at 43.25 for reference so taking off an entire inch I would guess. 

All things equal, the rules of thumb suggest 3/4" shorter means a drop of 4.5 swingweight points, and you'd make it up by adding 9 grams to the head.  However, the real answer is to adjust as needed on the range with lead tape by feel and performance.  The "proper" swingweight is only what works for you for that particular head/shaft/grip setup!

 

There are just too many unknowns / variables with different shaft weightings,  head weights, and methods of measuring length (and how you get along with the components).  

[Liveonce]

28 minutes ago, joostin said:

All things equal, the rules of thumb suggest 3/4" shorter means a drop of 4.5 swingweight points, and you'd make it up by adding 9 grams to the head.  However, the real answer is to adjust as needed on the range with lead tape by feel and performance.  The "proper" swingweight is only what works for you for that particular head/shaft/grip setup!

 

There are just too many unknowns / variables with different shaft weightings,  head weights, and methods of measuring length (and how you get along with the components).  

thank you. I spoke to callaway and they claimed if they did the build than they would ensure it’s as close to its proper swingweight before it leaves the factory. Is that accurate ?

[joostin]

Testing my Excel calculator against online ones - Leaderboard and Okrasa - with a driver, 6 iron, and wedge.  Just plugging in the weight and balance point:

 

Joostin's Excel:

Driver: D1.6 (can round to D2)

6I: D0.9 (can round to D1)

LW: D2.5 (can round to D3)

 

Okrasa:

http://golf.okrasa.eu/clubs/swingweight-en/sw-measurement/

Driver: D1.6 (can round to D2)

6I: D0.9 (can round to D1)

LW: D2.5 (can round to D3)

 

Leaderboard:

http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT

Driver: D1 (gauge representation ~D1.2)

6I: D0 (gauge rep. D0.5)

LW: D2 (gauge rep. D2.0)

 

For the Leaderboard I suggest entering in mm because it only goes 2 decimal places in inches, and 1 decimal place in mm is more accurate. 

 

Okrasa and the Excel calculator were identical.  Leaderboard was a little lower.

 

As mentioned in other posts I used to use Leaderboard but wanted to measure to a decimal point instead of rounding, and didn't like the Leaderboard calculation fluctuating between numbers.  Also I wanted to calculate & record multiple clubs on one page in Excel, and be able to calculate the effect of different club modifications.

 

Calc baseline D0.0 = 213.5 oz-in (torque at 14" fulcrum), 1.75 oz-in per SW point - per Tutelman and other references including the original Excel calculator posted by @dieselG

 

[joostin]

11 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

thank you. I spoke to callaway and they claimed if they did the build than they would ensure it’s as close to its proper swingweight before it leaves the factory. Is that accurate ?

Yes, it should be good to whatever their stated swingweight is.  The recommendation here is still to keep a roll of lead tape on hand to judge for yourself by feel.

[Fairway14]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:21 AM, donuts said:

Hi quick question.   I have a SIM driver with Hzrdus Green 70g stock length.  
It’s currently a D6.

It’s either too long or too heavy as I like the feel choked up one inch.    This makes it feel roughly D0.   
So, do I like the feel of 1” shorter or DO?

Would anyone recommend cutting 1” and leaving it D0 or keeping stock length and lowering weight to D0?

Thanks!

 

If you like the shots you produce choking down a bit on the driver keep doing that .

If you cut down shaft length by an inch the driver will feel much different, lighter in static weight and swing weight than it does now.

If you change out the grip to a 25 or 30 gram heavier model (to reduce the swing weight from D6 to D0)  the static weight of the club will be significantly heavier, and feel more sluggish when you swing it.

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

If you cut down shaft length by an inch the driver will feel much different, lighter in static weight and swing weight than it does now.

 

Nothing wrong with just continuing to choke up but this isn't the reason.  Cutting down 1" will loose maybe 2 gm of static weight on a driver shaft and the effective swing weight will be the same (assuming they really were only choking up 1").   So if there is a change in feel, it's not from either of those two things.

 

For most, the feel will not change.  For those that it does it comes from a change in the way the club is gripped or the change in size where the club is gripped relative to the taper of the grip  or they were really choking up more than they thought they were.

[donuts]

Thanks for all the replies.  
I think a lot of it is that the club is longer than I’m used to, stock TM length (45.75?)

Its too hard to square up and feel like it’s too long and heavy. 
If I choke up 1” ( or cut it) it’s a better length but I guess I’ll have to play around with weight to see if I like it short and D0 or short and back up to D3-D5.
 

 

[Rory Shannon]

Hi all, quick question. I’ve purchased a TSI 2 3 wood. Replaced the standard 75g Tensei shaft with an 83g Diamana whiteboard. The new shaft has a multi compound +4 golf pride grip that is 16g heavier than the standard golf pride tour velvet. How much weight should I be adding to the head to allow for this extra weight? Or is regriping to something lighter a better option? Any help would be most appreciated. 

[Stuart_G]

18 hours ago, Rory Shannon said:

Hi all, quick question. I’ve purchased a TSI 2 3 wood. Replaced the standard 75g Tensei shaft with an 83g Diamana whiteboard. The new shaft has a multi compound +4 golf pride grip that is 16g heavier than the standard golf pride tour velvet. How much weight should I be adding to the head to allow for this extra weight? Or is regriping to something lighter a better option? Any help would be most appreciated. 

 

For a grip/shaft change, best thing to do to start is to make no changes to the head weight.   Then bring the club and a roll of lead tape to the range.  Hit it a bit first and ONLY if it feel a bit light, then add the tape incrementally a couple grams at a time to get the desired feel back.  Never use the swing weight scale or rules to help adjust for a grip weight change.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Stuart_G

[joostin]

I have to believe if @Stuart_G got $1 from golfwrx for every time giving advice for a shaft change vs swingweight post, he'd be a very rich man!

 

Shaft change = forget old swingweight = don't change the grip to match your old swingweight = test the new setup at the range with lead tape by feel, and perhaps follow the DIY driver fitting instructions with foot powder. 😁

[sm_watts]

18 hours ago, joostin said:

I have to believe if @Stuart_G got $1 from golfwrx for every time giving advice for a shaft change vs swingweight post, he'd be a very rich man!

 

Shaft change = forget old swingweight = don't change the grip to match your old swingweight = test the new setup at the range with lead tape by feel, and perhaps follow the DIY driver fitting instructions with foot powder. 😁

Don't forget the disclaimer that all shafts have a different balance point!

[Stuart_G]

3 minutes ago, sm_watts said:

Don't forget the disclaimer that all shafts have a different balance point!

 

Or really any question related to swing weight.  🙂

 

[joostin]

On 5/19/2021 at 2:39 PM, Stuart_G said:

Never use the swing weight scale or rules to help adjust for a grip weight change.

I was scrolling through Robert Adams' scale patent "Apparatus for Measuring Moments" (https://patents.google.com/patent/US1953916), and maybe as affirmation of the original design intent to not adjust grip weight to dial in swingweight, he makes zero mention of changing any weight on the grip side of use scale.  He only mentions adding or subtracting weight on the head side or adjusting the club length.

 

"If the implement as measured by the original procedure has been found to have too small a reading, the method of adjustment is 'to load the remote end with additional Weight until a balanceis attained, or to lengthen the handle."

 

The scale of course was invented at a time when there were no rubber grips of different sizes like we have now, just wrapped leather.  Also steel shafts were just starting to take hold in the 1930s, so things were very different back then.  Yet the scale remains, and is good enough for many cases..... but can be used and abused for things unintended and unknown in the 1930s.

 

One interesting thing is that Adams' designs allowed the butt of the club to pass through the cradle to mimic shortening a club, and to go away from the cradle to mimic lengthening the club.  This seems to have been lost in current scales, maybe to dummy-proof things for users.  (Btw, it's equivalent to the "optional grip down" column in my Excel calculator: positive number is shortening / choking up, negative number is extending length).

 

[sm_watts]

59 minutes ago, joostin said:

I was scrolling through Robert Adams' scale patent "Apparatus for Measuring Moments"

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, "This is why I love golfwrx!"

[joostin]

10 hours ago, sm_watts said:

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, "This is why I love golfwrx!"

😂 You know... light reading.  Golfwrx: where 300+ yard hitting blade swinging equipment ho-ing golf nerds run free!

[sm_watts]

The ladies in the cafeteria where I teach are getting tired of me coming to borrow their food scale to measure heads, tip weights, and grips

[Oz Max]

Hi guys, I'm toying with the idea of swapping my 3 iron's shaft S300 for a Graphite Design 95S. That's 35gr difference, how much butt weight should I use? It can't be as easy as adding a 35gr weight, can it?

[Stuart_G]

49 minutes ago, Oz Max said:

Hi guys, I'm toying with the idea of swapping my 3 iron's shaft S300 for a Graphite Design 95S. That's 35gr difference, how much butt weight should I use? It can't be as easy as adding a 35gr weight, can it?

 

None.  

First of all, NEVER use butt weight to manipulate swing weight.

 

Secondly moving from a heavy shaft to a lighter shaft is more likely to lower the swing weight and require more head weight to correct.

 

However, to calculate how much,  you need to know the two shaft balance points as well the cut shaft weights  (not the uncut weights from the spec sheets) to determine how much the swing weight will be effected and what adjustments will be needed. 

 

Finally, what swing weight will be a good fit can change when you drop that much static wieght so you shouldn't really even be trying to keep the swing weight the same.    Build one club, take it to the range with some lead tape.  Add it incrementally to find the best head weight.  Then measure it and use that value to build the rest of the set.

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Oz Max]

9 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

None.  

First of all, NEVER use butt weight to manipulate swing weight.

 

Secondly moving from a heavy shaft to a lighter shaft is more likely to lower the swing weight and require more head weight to correct.

 

However, to calculate how much,  you need to know the two shaft balance points as well the cut shaft weights  (not the uncut weights from the spec sheets) to determine how much the swing weight will be effected and what adjustments will be needed. 

 

Finally, what swing weight will be a good fit can change when you drop that much static wieght so you shouldn't really even be trying to keep the swing weight the same.    Build one club, take it to the range with some lead tape.  Add it incrementally to find the best head weight.  Then measure it and use that value to build the rest of the set.

 

I'm kinda surprised... I would think a lighter shaft would make the head feel heavier. I'll grip the club and experiment!

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Oz Max said:

I'm kinda surprised... I would think a lighter shaft would make the head feel heavier. I'll grip the club and experiment!

 

Common misconception but the swing weight scale is not about balancing the head weight against the shaft weight.  In fact, the swing weight scale is only really about adjusting the head weight for different playing lengths.  And it's only a rough approximation for that.  It was never intended to manage changes in either grip weight or shaft weight.

 

But the SW fulcrum point is at 14" (for modern scales).  The c.g. of the shaft is always going to be on the head side of that fulcrum and add to the moment about that fulcrum in the same 'direction' as the head.   And in the context of the physics of the swing,  the shaft always adds to the MOI of the club just like the head does, just not as much.

 

Now what it does to feel is another topic altogether.  The swing weight scale is not an absolute (or accurate) measure of what will happen to the feel in the context of a shaft weight change - or grip weight change or even any static weight change for that matter.  That's why you need to throw out the old value and find a new one.

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Seamus_McDuff]

14 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

None.  

First of all, NEVER use butt weight to manipulate swing weight.

 

Secondly moving from a heavy shaft to a lighter shaft is more likely to lower the swing weight and require more head weight to correct.

 

However, to calculate how much,  you need to know the two shaft balance points as well the cut shaft weights  (not the uncut weights from the spec sheets) to determine how much the swing weight will be effected and what adjustments will be needed. 

 

Finally, what swing weight will be a good fit can change when you drop that much static wieght so you shouldn't really even be trying to keep the swing weight the same.    Build one club, take it to the range with some lead tape.  Add it incrementally to find the best head weight.  Then measure it and use that value to build the rest of the set.

 

He’s only changing one club

[Oz Max]

1 hour ago, Seamus_McDuff said:

He’s only changing one club

Yes, I'm more confused than ever now! I'll just pop a grip in and take it from there, if it feels off, I'll tape some lead grip side until it feels ok.

[Stuart_G]

8 hours ago, Seamus_McDuff said:

He’s only changing one club

 

Considering how often the question comes up, sometimes the response gets a bit automated.   Doesn't change any of the rest of the post though. He can measure and rebuild that club to replace the lead tape with tip weights - or just leave the lead tape on.

 

7 hours ago, Oz Max said:

I'll just pop a grip in and take it from there, if it feels off, I'll tape some lead grip side until it feels ok.

 

No, start by adding lead tape to the head until it feels ok.  (~1-2 gm increments).

 

If adding lead tape to the butt side makes things better it probably means you should be using a heavier shaft.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Stuart_G

[valmario]

I've been a predominantly S400 player, but I'm getting old and wanted to switch to something lighter.   I am a noob club builder and this is my first venture into graphite iron shafts.

 

I built up a 1/2 set - 6/8/P iron to the same swingweight as my gamers but with 95g Steel fibers.  Ive played a couple rounds and have had a few range sessions, but cant quite get used to the static weight difference. 

 

does anyone have an easy solution for this transition period, or do should I just stick it out?

[Stuart_G]

43 minutes ago, valmario said:

I've been a predominantly S400 player, but I'm getting old and wanted to switch to something lighter.   I am a noob club builder and this is my first venture into graphite iron shafts.

 

I built up a 1/2 set - 6/8/P iron to the same swingweight as my gamers but with 95g Steel fibers.  Ive played a couple rounds and have had a few range sessions, but cant quite get used to the static weight difference. 

 

does anyone have an easy solution for this transition period, or do should I just stick it out?

 

You shouldn't reuse the same swing weight value in the context of that much of a shaft weight change.   Get some lead tape and refit for swing weight by feel on the range (~1-2 gm at a time), not by using a swing weight scale.   Then re-evaluate.   They may be better or they may still seem too light.   Swing weight (head weight) can compensate for static weight being off a little but there are limits.

 

As far as taking time to adjust, that's a slippery slope.  Some people can adjust but there are some people can't even after a long time.  You never can tell if it will work or how long it might take.   Better to go try something in between maybe  ~ 110-115 gm range.     You can use the lead tape on the shaft (about 4-5" below the bottom of the grip) to simulate a heavier shaft and find what shaft weights work and what doesn't (5 gm increments).