My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

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  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,229 ✭✭

    Oh, it's looked like it for a LONG time, lol.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.5)
    Hybrid: Tour Edge Exotics E8 (19)
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Nike Method Milled 003
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 7:07pm #363

    @MelloYello said:
    Oh, it's looked like it for a LONG time, lol.

    LOL lets say i gave the benefit of the doubt, but got out info that could be relevant to someone out there lurking. So not a total loss, I recall someone admitting to trolling me wink LOL, but I still stuck to it and provided info and data In hopes that someone may take it to help make their decision. Ultimately....while people disagree... the best part is the discussion is still "had". You now the other saying... "the dumbest question is the one never asked or discussed"..... Ill be honest! At least you are honest about your feelings and no one can fault that! Cheers!

    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • revanantrevanant Members Posts: 166 ✭✭

    Ideal shot vs. a saved toe miss:

    Ideal 9 iron:

    Saved 9 iron (note the 5k spin, but good flight):

    The saved 9 iron was a bad toe strike—there was a bit of twist in the iron. So, there is something to be said for higher MOI. However, in 2 hours of testing, I only had two shots where the difference was significant enough for me to be able to spot it.

    @Exactice808 — the one data point I don’t get from my sim is angle of attack. When I hit off trackman, my angle of attack was generally between -5 and -2, so a bit of a sweep/shallow angle.

    On your theory of launch and height adding distance, I actually found the opposite. The Steelfibers with 716 cb are pretty comparable to my MP-4s. Carry and ball flight is similar, despite 25 grams of weight difference and a different shaft profile. Here’s an example—normal launch vs high launch vs ideal strike.


    Long story short—results are pretty consistent, regardless of my launch. My swing is my swing. If the back of the green is less than 155 yards, I should hit a 7 iron. : )

    Cobra King LTD
    Cobra Amp Cell 3W
    Cobra F6 Baffler 5W
    Mizuno MP-4 w/ Project X 6.0
    Titleist Vokey SM5 54-10 M
    Mizuno JPX 58-14
    Ping Redwood D66

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,129 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 7:47pm #365

    @MelloYello said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    Most knowledgeable teaching professionals will caution against relying on video. Again, chasing positions to achieve a look can be disastrous to someone who has no idea how the parts need to fit together.

    Achieve a look? We're talking about making a 15- or 20-handicap into a decent player.

    Worry about a look? Let's let Martin Kaymer worry about himself, okay?

    I really don't see why you're so hung up on this. Every** teacher **out there now uses video to communicate with their students. It's a massive tool in being able to show a student what they're doing and where they need to be. It helps when you're standing there in person. It helps when you're miles apart. It works for Tour guys and hackers alike. It helps communicate ideas when you can't do it in real time.

    Literally any beginner who takes their camera phone and gets a video of themselves swinging will be better for it. Just doing that alone is better than hacking around with blades until you randomly stumble across some feel that works for a few days.

    @dpb5031 said:
    The golf swing is very nuanced.

    Thankfully golf doesn't require we understand the minutia in order to develop a repeatable, good-looking swing that is an improvement upon the noobish hackery of our golfing youth. And that's what I'm talking about.

    I can't speak for you but the question I come away with here is just why a 25-handicap is worrying about equipment to begin with!?

    When I was getting into the game I was just happy to have a SW, LOL. I wasn't debating forged vs cast or giving 2 craps if I was too much of a hack to use blades (which I most definitely was, lol).

    This thread is evidence that equipment is distracting in general.

    Best golfer I played with over the last year uttered something about his Mizzy 2-iron having a graphite shaft. That's as much as he cared, haha.

    I love that.

    @MelloYello , You're not making any sense. Look at the bolded parts above and think about what I've stated in my posts. Don't be silly; I'm not against video, of course it's a useful tool. I simply cautioned players against trying to achieve certain "looks" (positions) within their golf swings without professional instruction. Did you really think I was talking about fashion or hair style...lol? C'mon man....

    You've stated that: "anyone with a video camera can achieve a repeatable, good looking swing." I vehemently disagree. Just because YOU think your swing **looks **good on video, does not mean it will produce good results. I'm telling you that most players have no idea what they're even looking at, or looking for, and trying to emulate swing positions without understanding cause and effect has very limited utility. Most need a knowledgeable instructor. There are plenty of choppers out there with general motions that look decent but who can't play a lick.

    Of course practically every teacher uses video and I never said otherwise. What I cautioned against is a player trying to rely on video **on his own **and I completely disagree that everyone with a camera phone who videos his own swing will have any idea what the heck they're doing. The "nuance" I speak of is 100% factual but that doesn't mean I'm advocating a player himself needs that knowledge of the "minutia" to improve. What he needs is a good instructor who knows what he's looking at and how to go about fixing it. BTW, many top teachers are very reluctant to even send their students home with video unless it's got voice-over (the teacher's voice) specifically instructing the student on what he needs to do.

    Good instructors know how the parts fit together with different swing patterns and will prioritize what needs to be worked on and in what order. No way a guy watches video of his own swing and has a clue besides the most basic aesthetics (look). Again, the entire exercise of videoing your own swing (on your own) is of very limited utility. Which incidentally, to get back on topic, is exactly the way I feel about practicing with blades. It's not a panacea to be wholly relied upon. It's just a drill that I believe has some merit (admittedly limited) and is certainly not a substitution for other types of training or instruction. I never said otherwise and I'm not going to repeat the benefits because they've been covered multiple times in this thread.

    Most beginners would be better off being taught the most basic fundamentals of grip & set-up and general motion, and then be turned loose on the range focusing on solidness of strike, ball flight, and the ability to repeat it (consistency), than to worry about taking video on their cell phone. Get to producing solid strikes and repeatable ball flights with a true MB blade 7 iron and I guarantee you'll hit practically any iron you try better.

    BTW, Martin Kaymer goes to the coffee shop in my neighborhood every morning at 7:30 sharp! I'll tell him you were asking...lol! B)

    EDIT: to clarify that it is not my position that beginners need to practice with a blade. No need to put a newbie through that when there are other options. My belief is that a mid capper looking to improve his iron play may find some benefit in practicing with one

    Post edited by dpb5031 on
    USGA Index: ~2

    WITB:
    2018 Taylormade M3 8.5 Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - stock shaft in S
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Ping Glide 2.0 - SS 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade Ho Toe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 7:45pm #366

    @revanant said:
    Ideal shot vs. a saved toe miss:

    Ideal 9 iron:

    Saved 9 iron (note the 5k spin, but good flight):

    The saved 9 iron was a bad toe strike—there was a bit of twist in the iron. So, there is something to be said for higher MOI. However, in 2 hours of testing, I only had two shots where the difference was significant enough for me to be able to spot it.

    @Exactice808 — the one data point I don’t get from my sim is angle of attack. When I hit off trackman, my angle of attack was generally between -5 and -2, so a bit of a sweep/shallow angle.

    On your theory of launch and height adding distance, I actually found the opposite. The Steelfibers with 716 cb are pretty comparable to my MP-4s. Carry and ball flight is similar, despite 25 grams of weight difference and a different shaft profile. Here’s an example—normal launch vs high launch vs ideal strike.

    Long story short—results are pretty consistent, regardless of my launch. My swing is my swing. If the back of the green is less than 155 yards, I should hit a 7 iron. : )

    What are you considering consistent? Distance only..... Sorry kinda of tired trying to explain it to you.... You want distance you got it, Yes you got the green 150 yards away Hit your 7 iron.... but after though who knows that you will be hitting next....

    Unfortunately it seems you are missing the information I am giving to you. You want to hit your irons far and as long as it ends up 150 yards away. Then you are good! Good on you! have fun!

    Post edited by Exactice808 on
    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 551 ✭✭

    The more I come back to this thread the more I think that while shooting over 100 and hitting your 9 iron an average of 100 yards the more I think it is absolutely insane to be spending any kind of money on clubs or switching irons to experiment with. Keep whichever set you want, sell the rest so you have some consistency, hit the gym and spend a s**t tonne of money on lessons I reckon.

    Cobra F9 Speedback 9° Tour Spec Atmos Black 6x
    Titleist 917F2 15.75° Aldila Rogue Black 70s
    Titleist 816H1 20° & 23° Accra FX200H M4
    Titleist 716 T-MB 4-5 (.5 long 2 flat) Modus 120x
    Titleist 716 CB 6-PW (.5 long 2 flat) Modus 120x
    Vokey SM7 50F 54S 58D S200
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2 350g 34.5"
    Pro V1x

    Currently - 8.7
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 7:41pm #368

    @balls_deep said:
    The more I come back to this thread the more I think that while shooting over 100 and hitting your 9 iron an average of 100 yards the more I think it is absolutely insane to be spending any kind of money on clubs or switching irons to experiment with. Keep whichever set you want, sell the rest so you have some consistency, hit the gym and spend a s**t tonne of money on lessons I reckon.

    Im done personally..... I admit.... I probably was guilty when I first started on GolfWRX 7 years ago... but I doubt I was this stubborn......It kills me to see a 164 yard 6 iron carry and a 125yard carry and the metric is that its just as consistent as the other clubs. Ill be honest I cannot boast as a teacher/instructor or a pro golfer. But I can admit If I had a 39 yards discrepancy with a single irons to which I argue, I would realize that I have way bigger issues then deciding between PX6.0, steelfibers, CB , MB and AP1s....
    cant do it anymore im out of this one.......LOL!

    @MtlJeff IM so sorry for derailing the thread I thought I could be productive.... But alas.... all for not... I think it was Bhelts this was a dumpster-fire.... Yups it really was LOL!!!

    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • revanantrevanant Members Posts: 166 ✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:

    Thanks. For what it’s worth, I’ve done some/a lot of this. DG R300 slows my swing speed down and takes distance from me, but feels fine.

    I did some testing yesterday with my newly acquired 716 CBs, which are shafted with Steelfiber i95. It’s not a 1-to-1 test, because the iron heads are obviously different. But I’ll put a few results up soon. Long story short, they’re pretty similar to my MP-4s.

    The only place I found a noticeable difference was on a toe-miss—there were two shots that really retained shape/direction/distance that would normally be a bad strike with my blades. Spin, carry, ball speed, shape, and feelnwere comperable, though feel and aesthetics are a little better with my MP-4s. I didn’t see much help on most misses—the only thing that stood out was a toe miss, and it wasn’t every toe-miss. I’d put it at like 25% chance to save my toe miss—otherwise, it’s the same.

    My mindset is a bit closer to Nard—it’s definitely nice to have a salvaged shot from a miss, but I really shouldn’t have that miss in the first place.

    I think I’ll probably flip my AP1s into the CB 716s, though. They’re an excellent set. It’s not a wise use of money, but I guess I’ll just spend more on golf this year. : )

    DG R300 slows your swing down well yes its 10 grams heavier... Think driver shaft if 10grams dont seem like much, a 70gram Driver shaft vs a 60gram shaft is significant.
    So it COULD lose distance. BUT I am concerned about your concern. your dispersion numbers.

    Lets kick out distance for a moment period. At this point you will learn distance, BUT what I see the biggest hole in my opinion. Is your strike is VARYING a lot. again looking at your data you posted your distance, dispersion and spin varies greatly for a 145 yard shot. I want to see what your 10 shots of DGR300 looks like in the shot window. Meaning is the dispersion tighter is the spin tighter is the launch tighter? regardless if you are hitting only 130 yards, I would love to see a 10 yard dispersion, about 6500rpms of spin and the heights in a more consistent shape
    This picture right here

    I think above is your best of the 3 pictures. 15 yard shot dispersion, BUT look at your Heights specifically. Your distance was 7 yards variance, your spin was 1000rpms variance
    We are trying to find something that matches your TEMPO and swing profile so you can put a repeatable swing. I am not sure if you are understanding what I am asking you if you are willing to do. I dont care about your distance or feel of distance on strike at this point. I want to replicate a repeatable swing by matching a profile for you specifically.

    this one was your wildest but again I am more concerned about the varying launch curve just look at it , there were 2 super short and flat look almost like skulls.

    The DG R300 obviously slowed you down, BUT did it in any way help your numbers by means of consistency.
    The steel fibers are next..... i95, 95gram is a huge change, what flex?

    I think I have asked you twice now what type of tempo you are, im going to ask again, what type of tempo are you?
    Next is again I really dont care about distance, I want to see first if we can tighten up your dispersion as again thats what you said in your first post. If that is not what you want you but you just want to discuss the your CB and hit the PX 6.0 shafts.... then we can just move on.

    Sorry, just saw this. In my mind, I strive for a medium tempo. Realistically, I’m probably a bit on the quick side.

    The i95s are in stiff flex.

    For the shots with low spin, those are typically mishits. But they aren’t typical. Case in point—the 4k spin shot is 1k lower than the average spin for that grouping. It’s 3 good shots and one mishit. My mishits will generally lose 10 yards laterally. The photos I’ve posted are the numbers I’m looking for on a normal/good strike.

    The R300s aren’t any tighter—they’re just shorter. Dispersion is similar. I didn’t curate the photos or anything—I wouldn’t read too much into dispersion. Sometimes a photo is early in a warmup, sometimes I’m working on swing path, etc. If i take a photo, it’s normally to remember the current shot.

    Cobra King LTD
    Cobra Amp Cell 3W
    Cobra F6 Baffler 5W
    Mizuno MP-4 w/ Project X 6.0
    Titleist Vokey SM5 54-10 M
    Mizuno JPX 58-14
    Ping Redwood D66

  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,129 ✭✭

    @balls_deep said:
    The more I come back to this thread the more I think that while shooting over 100 and hitting your 9 iron an average of 100 yards the more I think it is absolutely insane to be spending any kind of money on clubs or switching irons to experiment with. Keep whichever set you want, sell the rest so you have some consistency, hit the gym and spend a s**t tonne of money on lessons I reckon.

    I suppose it's part of the cycle of the golf journey that practically everyone goes through...lol! In my experience, the better the player, the less he cares about what his equipment looks like and what other's perceptions of it may be.

    A guy with a good tan and a mis-matched set of old stuff scares me. Send me the posers with their staff bag full of JDM forgings, complete with iron covers and matching everything...they're the ones ya want to play for money...lol!

    USGA Index: ~2

    WITB:
    2018 Taylormade M3 8.5 Graphite Design Tour AD IZ 6x
    Taylormade M2 Tour 15 Fujikura Pro TourSpec 73 S
    Kasco K2K 33 - UST Axivcore 65 Tour Green S
    Callaway RazrX Tour 4h - stock shaft in S
    Ping i200 5-UW (2 flat) - Nippon Modus 105X
    Ping Glide 2.0 - SS 54 (bent to 55 & 2 flat)
    Taylormade Ho Toe 64 (Bent to 62 & 2 flat)
    Palmer AP30R putter (circa 1960s)
    Taylormade TP5X Ball
  • balls_deepballs_deep Members Posts: 551 ✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @balls_deep said:
    The more I come back to this thread the more I think that while shooting over 100 and hitting your 9 iron an average of 100 yards the more I think it is absolutely insane to be spending any kind of money on clubs or switching irons to experiment with. Keep whichever set you want, sell the rest so you have some consistency, hit the gym and spend a s**t tonne of money on lessons I reckon.

    I suppose it's part of the cycle of the golf journey that practically everyone goes through...lol! In my experience, the better the player, the less he cares about what his equipment looks like and what other's perceptions of it may be.

    A guy with a good tan and a mis-matched set of old stuff scares me. Send me the posers with their staff bag full of JDM forgings, complete with iron covers and matching everything...they're the ones ya want to play for money...lol!

    Totally agree. The guys that rip just use the clubs that work and use them until they don't have grooves anymore. I have been searching in my equipment way more than I should be and it has hurt my game. I'm going to stick with what I've got for this entire season if I can and see if consistency improves. I'd like to get to below a 5 by the end of the season but it'll take a lot of work. Equipment continuity is going to be key in getting there.

    Cobra F9 Speedback 9° Tour Spec Atmos Black 6x
    Titleist 917F2 15.75° Aldila Rogue Black 70s
    Titleist 816H1 20° & 23° Accra FX200H M4
    Titleist 716 T-MB 4-5 (.5 long 2 flat) Modus 120x
    Titleist 716 CB 6-PW (.5 long 2 flat) Modus 120x
    Vokey SM7 50F 54S 58D S200
    Scotty Cameron Studio Stainless Newport 2 350g 34.5"
    Pro V1x

    Currently - 8.7
  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 8:22pm #372

    @balls_deep said:

    @dpb5031 said:

    @balls_deep said:
    The more I come back to this thread the more I think that while shooting over 100 and hitting your 9 iron an average of 100 yards the more I think it is absolutely insane to be spending any kind of money on clubs or switching irons to experiment with. Keep whichever set you want, sell the rest so you have some consistency, hit the gym and spend a s**t tonne of money on lessons I reckon.

    I suppose it's part of the cycle of the golf journey that practically everyone goes through...lol! In my experience, the better the player, the less he cares about what his equipment looks like and what other's perceptions of it may be.

    A guy with a good tan and a mis-matched set of old stuff scares me. Send me the posers with their staff bag full of JDM forgings, complete with iron covers and matching everything...they're the ones ya want to play for money...lol!

    Totally agree. The guys that rip just use the clubs that work and use them until they don't have grooves anymore. I have been searching in my equipment way more than I should be and it has hurt my game. I'm going to stick with what I've got for this entire season if I can and see if consistency improves. I'd like to get to below a 5 by the end of the season but it'll take a lot of work. Equipment continuity is going to be key in getting there.

    Try being broke.... that may force you to play what you got HAAHAH!!!! I am a super cheapskate.... I buy used clubs. And just use my fitter to tweak stuff. If my swing changes dramatically its back to the drawing board but again tweaks not overhauls. I accept the situations and scenario that I am so what ever the score is at the end of the day it is what it is.
    I think personally what drives the equipment flip is just the release. Like the iphone/androids, for years I kept buying the next one, iphone, iphone 3, 4,5,6,7 then it was just dumb I have stopped at 7 and works PERFECTLY fine.

    Same with irons and driver man the push outs are every 6 months to a year.... its $3000 a set of clubs... cant do that yearly its nuts... **** $500 driver thats nuts too. Add in a custom shaft....

    But ultimately... its the person swinging the club that makes the final score..... unless the club breaks in half mid swing its really not the clubs fault.......

    Titleist 915D3 
    TM M2v1 - 
    TM 18* M2 
    TM TP MC 4 & 5 PX 6.0 Rifles
    Cobra AMP Cell Pro 6-PW PX 6.0 Rifles
    Titleist SM5 Vokey50*/8*, 54*/10* & 58*/8* X100's
    Scotty Newport 2 33"
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,229 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 8:28pm #373

    @dpb5031 said:
    @MelloYello , You're not making any sense. Look at the bolded parts above and think about what I've stated in my posts. Don't be silly; I'm not against video, of course it's a useful tool. I simply cautioned players against trying to achieve certain "looks" (positions) within their golf swings without professional instruction. Did you really think I was talking about fashion or hair style...lol? C'mon man....

    You've stated that: "anyone with a video camera can achieve a repeatable, good looking swing." I vehemently disagree. Just because YOU think your swing **looks **good on video, does not mean it will produce good results. I'm telling you that most players have no idea what they're even looking at, or looking for, and trying to emulate swing positions without understanding cause and effect has very limited utility. Most need a knowledgeable instructor. There are plenty of choppers out there with general motions that look decent but who can't play a lick.

    Of course practically every teacher uses video and I never said otherwise. What I cautioned against is a player trying to rely on video **on his own **and I completely disagree that everyone with a camera phone who videos his own swing will have any idea what the heck they're doing. The "nuance" I speak of is 100% factual but that doesn't mean I'm advocating a player himself needs that knowledge to improve. What he needs is a good instructor who knows what he's looking at and how to go about fixing it. BTW, many top teachers are very reluctant to even send their students home with video unless it's got voice-over (the teacher's voice) specifically instructing the student on what he needs to do.

    Good instructors know how the parts fit together with different swing patterns and will prioritize what needs to be worked on and in what order. No way a guy watches video of his own swing and has a clue besides the most basic aesthetics (look). Again, the entire exercise is of videoing your own swing (on your own) is of very limited utility. Which incidentally, to get back on topic, is exactly the way I feel about practicing with blades. It's not a panacea to be wholly relied upon. It's just a drill that I believe has some merit (admittedly limited) and is certainly not a substitution for other types of training or instruction. I never said otherwise and I'm not going to repeat the benefits because they've been covered multiple times in this thread.

    Most beginners would be better off being taught the most basic fundamentals of grip & set-up and general motion, and then be turned loose on the range focusing on solidness of strike, ball flight, and the ability to repeat it (consistency), than to worry about taking video on their cell phone. Get to producing solid strikes and repeatable ball flights with a true MB blade 7 iron and I guarantee you'll hit practically any iron you try better.

    BTW, Martin Kaymer goes to the coffee shop in my neighborhood every morning at 7:30 sharp! I'll tell him you were asking...lol! B)

    Well, ignoring generalities like "you need to see yourself" and "you shouldn't get OCD about positions" I argue for players using video because I think it leads to actual changes. Video allows the ignorant am to turn on the lights and see what he's actually doing

    There are orthodox corridors of acceptability. All a player has to do is get themselves into those corridors. And with all the endless media available it’s easy to find great swing models to copy.

    The alternative is educated guesswork and it's an absolute miracle that someone working on their own like Ben Hogan ever emerges from that fog. That’s one-in-a-million.

    The vast majority of people can progress a little but won't be able to establish any independent goals, let along reach them. It should come as a surprise to no one that amateurs burn through endless feel-based tweaks never improving their large-scale ability to card a score. Their tweaks don’t even qualify as "changes" in the formal sense.

    At least with video, a person can see that they are fatally laid-off, swaying massively, coming OTT, moving their head strangely, spinning out or whatever. Those things are unmistakably clear when seen on video. If you think amateurs are just too ignorant I flatly disagree. It’s 2019. Forums, magazines and YouTube make it painfully clear what a “good swing” looks like.

    You say that beginners should be taught the fundamentals and given time. You know what? I agree with you. But within a year or two, as soon as that person has begun to sprout some sort of "swing" they need to be put into a program whereby they can be developed more formally. Yes, a noob needs to get some comfort first. But soon thereafter they need structure.

    Proper instruction is ideal. I agree with that. But some sort of actual self-guided training is better than the alternative of beating balls which amounts to a whole lot of nothing.

    Let me level with you. I started in my early 20s and it took me about 2-3 years before I shot a few rounds in the 70s and hit a wall. I totally plateaued. It was at that point that I should have started working with a real instructor to break things down and build myself up as a better player. Lord knows I had the desire. But I was stubborn and egotistical. Either that or I just thought I could read magazines and “feel” my way towards a better swing.

    Long story short, I consider virtually all of the next 7-8 years to have been wasted. I didn't progress at all with that nonsense.

    Last year was the first time I really began looking at my swing. It was eye-opening. But the results are obvious. Not only do I look better cosmetically but I'm statistically better. I’m more consistent. I’m shocked at how often I don’t feel “in the zone” now but still produce essentially the same quality of shots. And it barely took any work! It doesn't take 1,000 swings to make an adjustment. It takes 10 if you are looking at videos of each one.

    Then you can go hit the range and have fun beating 100 balls on the range as you ingrain that feel.

    We're talking about improving folks who are mid- and high-handicaps. It's really not that hard if you do the right stuff. The problem with a lot of these blade guys is that they aren't actually doing ANYTHING that qualifies as "the right stuff."

    Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day. It might help with timing a little as you use it. It might force you into a better rhythm. But it doesn’t show you how to do anything.

    So again, you do you. No problems there. But if we’re talking about what the general advice should be? Well, the above sums up my view.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.5)
    Hybrid: Tour Edge Exotics E8 (19)
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Nike Method Milled 003
  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,229 ✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:
    I buy used clubs.

    As a general point, I'm trying to do less of that. Buying stuff that's new or near new not only supports local retailers but it pushes us to be more serious and disciplined w.r.t. our games in general.

    Equipment shouldn't be stuff we constantly shop for and swap out. That's asking for trouble.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.5)
    Hybrid: Tour Edge Exotics E8 (19)
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
    Wedges: Vokey SM6 52-F / 56-F / 60-S
    Putter: Nike Method Milled 003
  • dpb5031dpb5031 Members Posts: 5,129 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 9:10pm #375

    @MelloYello said:

    @dpb5031 said:
    @MelloYello , You're not making any sense. Look at the bolded parts above and think about what I've stated in my posts. Don't be silly; I'm not against video, of course it's a useful tool. I simply cautioned players against trying to achieve certain "looks" (positions) within their golf swings without professional instruction. Did you really think I was talking about fashion or hair style...lol? C'mon man....

    You've stated that: "anyone with a video camera can achieve a repeatable, good looking swing." I vehemently disagree. Just because YOU think your swing **looks **good on video, does not mean it will produce good results. I'm telling you that most players have no idea what they're even looking at, or looking for, and trying to emulate swing positions without understanding cause and effect has very limited utility. Most need a knowledgeable instructor. There are plenty of choppers out there with general motions that look decent but who can't play a lick.

    Of course practically every teacher uses video and I never said otherwise. What I cautioned against is a player trying to rely on video **on his own **and I completely disagree that everyone with a camera phone who videos his own swing will have any idea what the heck they're doing. The "nuance" I speak of is 100% factual but that doesn't mean I'm advocating a player himself needs that knowledge to improve. What he needs is a good instructor who knows what he's looking at and how to go about fixing it. BTW, many top teachers are very reluctant to even send their students home with video unless it's got voice-over (the teacher's voice) specifically instructing the student on what he needs to do.

    Good instructors know how the parts fit together with different swing patterns and will prioritize what needs to be worked on and in what order. No way a guy watches video of his own swing and has a clue besides the most basic aesthetics (look). Again, the entire exercise is of videoing your own swing (on your own) is of very limited utility. Which incidentally, to get back on topic, is exactly the way I feel about practicing with blades. It's not a panacea to be wholly relied upon. It's just a drill that I believe has some merit (admittedly limited) and is certainly not a substitution for other types of training or instruction. I never said otherwise and I'm not going to repeat the benefits because they've been covered multiple times in this thread.

    Most beginners would be better off being taught the most basic fundamentals of grip & set-up and general motion, and then be turned loose on the range focusing on solidness of strike, ball flight, and the ability to repeat it (consistency), than to worry about taking video on their cell phone. Get to producing solid strikes and repeatable ball flights with a true MB blade 7 iron and I guarantee you'll hit practically any iron you try better.

    BTW, Martin Kaymer goes to the coffee shop in my neighborhood every morning at 7:30 sharp! I'll tell him you were asking...lol! B)

    Well, ignoring generalities like "you need to see yourself" and "you shouldn't get OCD about positions" I argue for players using video because I think it leads to actual changes. Video allows the ignorant am to turn on the lights and see what he's actually doing

    There are orthodox corridors of acceptability. All a player has to do is get themselves into those corridors. And with all the endless media available it’s easy to find great swing models to copy.

    The alternative is educated guesswork and it's an absolute miracle that someone working on their own like Ben Hogan ever emerges from that fog. That’s one-in-a-million.

    The vast majority of people can progress a little but won't be able to establish any independent goals, let along reach them. It should come as a surprise to no one that amateurs burn through endless feel-based tweaks never improving their large-scale ability to card a score. Their tweaks don’t even qualify as "changes" in the formal sense.

    At least with video, a person can see that they are fatally laid-off, swaying massively, coming OTT, moving their head strangely, spinning out or whatever. Those things are unmistakably clear when seen on video. If you think amateurs are just too ignorant I flatly disagree. It’s 2019. Forums, magazines and YouTube make it painfully clear what a “good swing” looks like.

    You say that beginners should be taught the fundamentals and given time. You know what? I agree with you. But within a year or two, as soon as that person has begun to sprout some sort of "swing" they need to be put into a program whereby they can be developed more formally. Yes, a noob needs to get some comfort first. But soon thereafter they need structure.

    Proper instruction is ideal. I agree with that. But some sort of actual self-guided training is better than the alternative of beating balls which amounts to a whole lot of nothing.

    Let me level with you. I started in my early 20s and it took me about 2-3 years before I shot a few rounds in the 70s and hit a wall. I totally plateaued. It was at that point that I should have started working with a real instructor to break things down and build myself up as a better player. Lord knows I had the desire. But I was stubborn and egotistical. Either that or I just thought I could read magazines and “feel” my way towards a better swing.

    Long story short, I consider virtually all of the next 7-8 years to have been wasted. I didn't progress at all with that nonsense.

    Last year was the first time I really began looking at my swing. It was eye-opening. But the results are obvious. Not only do I look better cosmetically but I'm statistically better. I’m more consistent. I’m shocked at how often I don’t feel “in the zone” now but still produce essentially the same quality of shots. And it barely took any work! It doesn't take 1,000 swings to make an adjustment. It takes 10 if you are looking at videos of each one.

    Then you can go hit the range and have fun beating 100 balls on the range as you ingrain that feel.

    We're talking about improving folks who are mid- and high-handicaps. It's really not that hard if you do the right stuff. The problem with a lot of these blade guys is that they aren't actually doing ANYTHING that qualifies as "the right stuff."

    Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day. It might help with timing a little as you use it. It might force you into a better rhythm. But it doesn’t show you how to do anything.

    So again, you do you. No problems there. But if we’re talking about what the general advice should be? Well, the above sums up my view.

    @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

    Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

    You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

    You said: "anyone with a video camera can achieve a repeatable, good looking swing." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

    And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

    USGA Index: ~2

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  • revanantrevanant Members Posts: 166 ✭✭

    @Exactice808 @MelloYello

    Honestly, I don’t think you guys are being fair to me. It’s middle of the day, and I’m on my phone.

    For the data sets, I’m not pouring over every photo and pulling out mishits. That being said—you can do a quick check to figure out if a mishit is representative of a sample or not. Just look at the average. If the low is really off from the average, it both brought the average down and isn’t like the other shots. If the high is really high, it’s usually a draw with lower spin that’s also an outlier. If the sample is small, then all of the data has to be given a grain of salt, because outliers will skew.

    I’m doing my best to answer your points. I don’t mind iron testing, mainly because I find it fun and have access to the sim. For instance, based on my testing yesterday, I actually happened to have examples of what happens to my ball flight with high vs lower launch.

    To the extent that I’m not seeing a big variation from various shafts, it might be because I have an early/mid release, rather than a late release.

    Source:
    http://www.golfwrx.com/55733/wishon-facts-about-what-shafts-what-shafts-do-and-who-they-do-it-for/

    On the dispersion point—honestly, I’m not worried about it. If I do my job and get a good strike, I tend to be accurate. I do have mishits, but it’s not related to the club. You can’t fault the club for a skulled shot, and I don’t. But I also don’t factor a skull into my shots when I play golf—I just focus on my ideal shot number, and a hypothetical miss that’s 10 yards shorter. I have yet to hit an iron that truly prevents bad shots—any iron can be thinned or duffed. I ignore those results and just focus on the shots where I make good contact when I’m looking at iron results.

    You guys have been very helpful. I can’t help my iron distances, but I’m not far from make averages, and play from the appropriate tees.

    Moreover—in testing many iron sets, I’ve found a few that work for me. And honestly, I haven’t heard a good argument for spending more money on my irons. It seems like my irons—be it the 716s or the MP-4s—are around the appropriate shot window for my swing speed. And despite a shift in head type and shaft, the two irons seem pretty close in performance.

    In that case, I’m fine with my numbers, and if I want to gain distance, I think the best approach is to gain it through improved technique rather than tech. In other words—no reason to toss money at a shaft change, or really worry about my irons.

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  • nostaticnostatic "i drank what?!?" Socrates lost angelesClubWRX Posts: 172 ClubWRX
    edited May 14, 2019 9:16pm #377

    My coach said something interesting last night. My usual baby draw wasn't drawing, though I was making fairly consistent contact. He diagnosed that I wasn't getting enough turn on the backswing, which led to not getting my hands through correctly and my inside/out path was just leaving it to the right. In retrospect, what I'd done in the preceding couple of weeks (on my own) was unconsciously shorten my backswing as a byproduct of slowing my tempo to make more consistent contact. It felt right but it wasn't. His comment was something along the lines of, "don't chase feel - get to the right positions throughout your swing...the feel will follow that." Did a couple of quick drills and my shot was back.

    Not clear that me looking at video would have allowed me to sort it out (we use video during the lessons - when he points it out I see it). I certainly may have sorted it out on my own with a combination of video and launch monitor data, but more likely I would have trial and error'd my way into frustration or injury. I was lucky that when I was a kid, my dad (a scratch golfer), took me to a local pro for lessons as soon as I showed interest and aptitude with his initial input. When I came back to the game beginning of this year after a long layoff, a brief stint of trying to hit some balls at a local shop convinced me that lessons were what I needed to get back on the horse.

    I play with guys who are mid/high cap. They certainly could benefit from lessons, but some do not want to take them as they're comfortable with their game and don't want to change their swing. Works for them. I want to improve and set up for long-term enjoyment so I plunk down the money for consistent coaching. Works for me. Everybody has to find their own way and process...

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  • MelloYelloMelloYello Upstate, SCMembers Posts: 3,229 ✭✭

    @dpb5031 said:

    @MelloYello , you seem like a nice guy and I've appreciated our discussion, but I don't understand why you seem to take everything I say as a zero sum relative to your opinions and assertions. There's plenty of room in the middle and I have not made sweeping assertions. I'm going to clarify one last time:

    Way earlier in this thread the usefulness of using a true MB blade as a training aid was being debated. I said practicing with a blade can be helpful. You disagreed. I explained how and why it helped me. I'm currently a 1 HC and a decent enough player to know if something has been beneficial. I never said it was the "be all and end all," and I never said there weren't many other useful ways to practice and improve, including the use of video. I have acknowledged that practicing with a blade may not benefit _every _player.

    You said above: "Whatever that blade does for you is feel-based and therefore gone the next day." Again I disagree. There are things that must be achieved mechanically to strike an MB blade perfectly and to produce good and repeatable ball flights. Do the same principles apply to CBs? Sure (never said they didn't). It's just magnified with blades. Those mechanics can be ingrained through repetition, and like of or not, feel is a major component in that...no matter how you practice. It takes reps to ingrain feels whether you're trying to achieve a position you've deemed needs improvement through the use of video, or whether you're trying to achieve sold strikes and good ball flights with a blade.

    You said: "anyone with a video camera can achieve a repeatable, good looking swing." I disagreed previously and I disagree now. I've explained why above. I cautioned about striving for specific positions when you may not understand cause and effect and the variables that will influence how your swing should look. Again, it's not zero sum, so I don't know why you continue to try to portray my position on it that way?

    And I'll end with a question. Where are all of these folks who have improved so dramatically since the advent of video capable cell phones? Last I checked handicaps have not changed significantly in decades.

    I just think you and I disagree on this topic and that's fine as it's totally my projection onto the golf community as a whole as to what would be better.

    I don't mean to attack you using a blade as a drill. Again, you do you. No issues there.

    But in general I think people don't improve largely because they chase BS that doesn't help them. Once people start whipping out their cameras more often and doing some real work i think we will see handicaps come down. That's exactly the point. Very few people do it in earnest. Very few take lessons and amongst them not everyone take it serious.

    But if we're isolating just the die-hard ams I think video is certainly one of their most trust-worthy tools.

    Driver: TaylorMade M3 (10.5)
    Fairway: TaylorMade RBZ Black (16.5)
    Hybrid: Tour Edge Exotics E8 (19)
    Irons: Titleist 716 CB (4-Pw)
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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019 11:14pm #379

    @revanant said:
    @Exactice808 @MelloYello

    Honestly, I don’t think you guys are being fair to me. It’s middle of the day, and I’m on my phone.

    For the data sets, I’m not pouring over every photo and pulling out mishits. That being said—you can do a quick check to figure out if a mishit is representative of a sample or not. Just look at the average. If the low is really off from the average, it both brought the average down and isn’t like the other shots. If the high is really high, it’s usually a draw with lower spin that’s also an outlier. If the sample is small, then all of the data has to be given a grain of salt, because outliers will skew.

    I’m doing my best to answer your points. I don’t mind iron testing, mainly because I find it fun and have access to the sim. For instance, based on my testing yesterday, I actually happened to have examples of what happens to my ball flight with high vs lower launch.

    To the extent that I’m not seeing a big variation from various shafts, it might be because I have an early/mid release, rather than a late release.

    Source:
    http://www.golfwrx.com/55733/wishon-facts-about-what-shafts-what-shafts-do-and-who-they-do-it-for/

    On the dispersion point—honestly, I’m not worried about it. If I do my job and get a good strike, I tend to be accurate. I do have mishits, but it’s not related to the club. You can’t fault the club for a skulled shot, and I don’t. But I also don’t factor a skull into my shots when I play golf—I just focus on my ideal shot number, and a hypothetical miss that’s 10 yards shorter. I have yet to hit an iron that truly prevents bad shots—any iron can be thinned or duffed. I ignore those results and just focus on the shots where I make good contact when I’m looking at iron results.

    You guys have been very helpful. I can’t help my iron distances, but I’m not far from make averages, and play from the appropriate tees.

    Moreover—in testing many iron sets, I’ve found a few that work for me. And honestly, I haven’t heard a good argument for spending more money on my irons. It seems like my irons—be it the 716s or the MP-4s—are around the appropriate shot window for my swing speed. And despite a shift in head type and shaft, the two irons seem pretty close in performance.

    In that case, I’m fine with my numbers, and if I want to gain distance, I think the best approach is to gain it through improved technique rather than tech. In other words—no reason to toss money at a shaft change, or really worry about my irons.

    @MelloYello Has given you the most upfront advice, practice and lessons. Hes right.
    I am with Mellow on this one BUT indulging the experiment to try to "help" you hit your MBs and or CB's better than you currently are.
    With that. A miss is a miss you CANNOT take a miss out of a round, on the golf course you cant erase it. When it happens you have to deal with it. You have some pretty bad and inconsistent misses period. Who knows what negative affect it will apply on the course. Facts remains you are a 24 handicap making more than double bogey on each hole. You are losing strokes period. I can likely see part of it is due to your loss shots. But hey thats just an interpretation you know your game right.

    Next.... Here is an ugly truth. I thought I was good till I saw this dude hit about 20 shots @ the 100 yard marker withing a 3 ft circle, It was ridiculous. After that I realized no matter if I hit a 7 iron or a PW or a LW 100 yards I would rather have that type of consistency and accuracy.

    Let me say it again for 140-150 that is a generic scoring distance as most par 3's are about that distance. With a Green diameter of 30 Yards, In my mind I want to be 100% hitting that green 10/10 shots. When that one loose shot pops up and it will. But fact remains if I have a 150 yard par 3 flag right in the middle I am 100% confident I will hit the green. why? Because I know my carry distance with my 8 iron is about 155 I can take just a touch off it add a good amount of spin and even if I miss I am not going to be 15 yards offline from center @ 150 yards. I wont skull it 140 and hop it rolls up, its basically my money club in my mind if it actually happens who knows but that point is I am super confident with the approach shot. This goes WITH pretty much 7iron down to LW with the specified distance gap in my mind I am 100% hitting the green from 7 iron down in regards to flag in the middle and a 30 yard diameter.

    Your shot patter has ZERO confidence of that, your 9 iron which seems to be a 100 yard club... has a dispersion of 33 yards.

    https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.074.html
    Just look at this, from 100 yards, The worst guy on tour is 30'4" from 100 yards out , Adam Scott 13'2"

    I am confident that many of the better players on golf WRX lets say single digits are likely NO worse than 20ft from 100 yards out..... You are 99ft diameter.... Thats not "good enough"

    Funny lets do a passive brag, Im not a single now, but was, not a tour player and Im pretty darn confident to be about 20ft diameter at about 100ft out......

    Anyways I have given you all my opinions on what to try what to look at. You take it for what its worth. Im done as you have a goal in mind and it does not seem to align with what I previously thought. And more details or data or advice like others mentioned would be detrimental rather than helpful

    Good Luck!

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  • nostaticnostatic "i drank what?!?" Socrates lost angelesClubWRX Posts: 172 ClubWRX

    @Exactice808 said:
    Next.... Here is an ugly truth. I thought I was good till I saw this dude hit about 20 shots @ the 100 yard marker withing a 3 ft circle, It was ridiculous. After that I realized no matter if I hit a 7 iron or a PW or a LW 100 yards I would rather have that type of consistency and accuracy.

    Then the next thing I want is consistency the following day I hit. About a month ago towards the end of my lesson I fell into a groove and hit a dozen 7 irons shots in a row to within about a 15' diameter circle, 150y out (admittedly simulator and mats indoors). It was freaky. The problem was that ended up as a "local groove" and the next round (and even the next lesson), I couldn't get back into it. So the work continues to find that "long-term groove".

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  • Ripken08Ripken08 Members Posts: 4,245 ✭✭

    I can't believe some of you still going on and on keeping this thread alive. :s

    It was clearly an attempt to copy the "my experience playing ****.....as a YYY handicap" threads preceding it and using it to passively brag.

  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭

    @Ripken08 said:
    I can't believe some of you still going on and on keeping this thread alive. :s

    It was clearly an attempt to copy the "my experience playing ****.....as a YYY handicap" threads preceding it and using it to passively brag.

    Wasnt there 3....... While likely created in jest... it still some what relevant... it has gone off the rails but the info could still be relevant....not much.... but just a little?

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  • revanantrevanant Members Posts: 166 ✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:

    @revanant said:
    @Exactice808 @MelloYello

    Honestly, I don’t think you guys are being fair to me. It’s middle of the day, and I’m on my phone.

    For the data sets, I’m not pouring over every photo and pulling out mishits. That being said—you can do a quick check to figure out if a mishit is representative of a sample or not. Just look at the average. If the low is really off from the average, it both brought the average down and isn’t like the other shots. If the high is really high, it’s usually a draw with lower spin that’s also an outlier. If the sample is small, then all of the data has to be given a grain of salt, because outliers will skew.

    I’m doing my best to answer your points. I don’t mind iron testing, mainly because I find it fun and have access to the sim. For instance, based on my testing yesterday, I actually happened to have examples of what happens to my ball flight with high vs lower launch.

    To the extent that I’m not seeing a big variation from various shafts, it might be because I have an early/mid release, rather than a late release.

    Source:
    http://www.golfwrx.com/55733/wishon-facts-about-what-shafts-what-shafts-do-and-who-they-do-it-for/

    On the dispersion point—honestly, I’m not worried about it. If I do my job and get a good strike, I tend to be accurate. I do have mishits, but it’s not related to the club. You can’t fault the club for a skulled shot, and I don’t. But I also don’t factor a skull into my shots when I play golf—I just focus on my ideal shot number, and a hypothetical miss that’s 10 yards shorter. I have yet to hit an iron that truly prevents bad shots—any iron can be thinned or duffed. I ignore those results and just focus on the shots where I make good contact when I’m looking at iron results.

    You guys have been very helpful. I can’t help my iron distances, but I’m not far from make averages, and play from the appropriate tees.

    Moreover—in testing many iron sets, I’ve found a few that work for me. And honestly, I haven’t heard a good argument for spending more money on my irons. It seems like my irons—be it the 716s or the MP-4s—are around the appropriate shot window for my swing speed. And despite a shift in head type and shaft, the two irons seem pretty close in performance.

    In that case, I’m fine with my numbers, and if I want to gain distance, I think the best approach is to gain it through improved technique rather than tech. In other words—no reason to toss money at a shaft change, or really worry about my irons.

    @MelloYello Has given you the most upfront advice, practice and lessons. Hes right.
    I am with Mellow on this one BUT indulging the experiment to try to "help" you hit your MBs and or CB's better than you currently are.
    With that. A miss is a miss you CANNOT take a miss out of a round, on the golf course you cant erase it. When it happens you have to deal with it. You have some pretty bad and inconsistent misses period. Who knows what negative affect it will apply on the course. Facts remains you are a 24 handicap making more than double bogey on each hole. You are losing strokes period. I can likely see part of it is due to your loss shots. But hey thats just an interpretation you know your game right.

    Next.... Here is an ugly truth. I thought I was good till I saw this dude hit about 20 shots @ the 100 yard marker withing a 3 ft circle, It was ridiculous. After that I realized no matter if I hit a 7 iron or a PW or a LW 100 yards I would rather have that type of consistency and accuracy.

    Let me say it again for 140-150 that is a generic scoring distance as most par 3's are about that distance. With a Green diameter of 30 Yards, In my mind I want to be 100% hitting that green 10/10 shots. When that one loose shot pops up and it will. But fact remains if I have a 150 yard par 3 flag right in the middle I am 100% confident I will hit the green. why? Because I know my carry distance with my 8 iron is about 155 I can take just a touch off it add a good amount of spin and even if I miss I am not going to be 15 yards offline from center @ 150 yards. I wont skull it 140 and hop it rolls up, its basically my money club in my mind if it actually happens who knows but that point is I am super confident with the approach shot. This goes WITH pretty much 7iron down to LW with the specified distance gap in my mind I am 100% hitting the green from 7 iron down in regards to flag in the middle and a 30 yard diameter.

    Your shot patter has ZERO confidence of that, your 9 iron which seems to be a 100 yard club... has a dispersion of 33 yards.

    https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.074.html
    Just look at this, from 100 yards, The worst guy on tour is 30'4" from 100 yards out , Adam Scott 13'2"

    I am confident that many of the better players on golf WRX lets say single digits are likely NO worse than 20ft from 100 yards out..... You are 99ft diameter.... Thats not "good enough"

    Funny lets do a passive brag, Im not a single now, but was, not a tour player and Im pretty darn confident to be about 20ft diameter at about 100ft out......

    Anyways I have given you all my opinions on what to try what to look at. You take it for what its worth. Im done as you have a goal in mind and it does not seem to align with what I previously thought. And more details or data or advice like others mentioned would be detrimental rather than helpful

    Good Luck!

    Honestly, I appreciate both of your input. And I am 100% agreed—money on golf for me is best spent on lessons.

    I went back through the thread. We are definitely looking at the same data and reaching different conclusions. I think I figured out why.

    The “dispersion” category isn’t a metric that my sim measures clearly. I don’t fully understand it, to be honest. What it seems to do is take the difference between my two biggest misses. It does so based on the “total” distance travelled—I.e. not carry, but roll. Essentially, it’s measuring the gap between my outliers/worst shots. If I hit five shots within 3 feet of the pin at 100 yards, and then hit a 10 yard chip, the dispersion number will read about 90 yards. But it’s not exact and my explanation might be wrong—I’m trying to reverse engineer the calculation. In the above photo, though, the long pull/draw is heavily skewing the lateral distance. You can see it on the map in the top right—it’s a top down view of my shots.

    Generally, I’m focusing more on the section right above—the “Deviation - Distance” category. That tells me how far from the center my shot was. But it only really works for the current shot and the low shot (reflecting the most pushed/right shot)—the average metric is a bit useless. If I hit a shot 10 feet left and then 10 feet right of target, the average comes out to zero on the sim. : )

    In this case, I actually happen to have before and after pics, so you can see how the simulator works. I deleted no shots—this was just my first time hitting the 9 iron and trying to figure out what my number was when I made good contact.

    Before:

    The current shot is 18 inches from center (deviation distance), and if you look at the “average” and “high” columns, you can see that this shot is above average, and is in fact the longes shot I hit in this set of 4 (you can see shot count in top left—“shot 4”). Because I have a push miss, you can also see my widest horizontal miss—17 feet. Based on that shot grouping, assuming the flag is along the center line and at my average distance, my longest lateral putt is 12 feet (current shot), and my longest horizontal putt is 17 feet (“low” number for deviance). However, “dispersion” is 27 feet / 9 yards—and honestly—I’m not sure how that number was calculated. It’s not quite the difference between the high and low shots, though it’s close. But it’s also not an accurate reflection of my distance from center, or the length of the putts I would have to make—both of those values are significantly better.

    Here is after:

    Now, based on dispersion of 28 yards, it looks like I’m generally missing the average-sized green. But really, I just had one outlier—4 out of 5 shots are safely on the green, and no farther than 105 carry / 112 total yards. On the course, I pull my 9 iron if middle of the green is about 110 yards away. Mentally, I discount my long pull as an outlier, make a small correction if needed to my setup or swing path or grip, etc., and continue with my practice. But if someone looks just at the dispersion to understand my iron play, they get a very different story.

    To;dr—I didn’t give you a data set that lends itself to analyzing based on the “dispersion,”—these are just photos in from random range sessions, where I’m trying different things on shot path, setup, etc. I’ve been choosing samples that reflect the shot window we discussed earlier in the current shot, by and large. There’s a lot of noise in the data that skews the dispersion number. I’m happy to put a data set together that would be more helpful for judging dispersion, with whatever parameters you want. We’d probably want to take the best four or five shots from a sample of x swings, but would be happy to do whatever. But I don’t know how the dispersion number is calculated, exactly, and the sim doesn’t give me a list of my total shots and only lets me remove my most recent shot from a sample—I can’t choose my 5 best out of 10, unless they happen to be consecutive.

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  • revanantrevanant Members Posts: 166 ✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019 12:38am #384

    For what it’s worth, I’m also not trying to hijack this thread.

    I’d be happy to move this discussion/put iron testing in a separate thread, if that’s preferred.

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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,582 ✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019 1:25am #385

    @Exactice808 said:

    @nsxguy said:

    While I can't speak for the "anti blades brigade", I don't believe they care what you, or anyone else, plays. Why ? Because most(?) of them have said exactly that.

    What they do (appear to mostly) care about is how the "anti CB brigade" keeps defending their choice of blades with "There's so little difference it doesn't MAKE any difference" or even "There IS no difference",,,,,,,,,,, when CB guys, who have tried both, know there IS a difference, at least to them. And their anecdotal evidence is at least as valid as the anti-CB guys.

    And I asked once before and got "crickets" but why do you suppose that virtually NO Tour Pro, or amateur for that matter, does NOT use a blade (NON-heel toe weighted) putter or anything but one of the most forgiving drivers.

    Hello NSX ! If I may...... I must have missed the discussion about the putter... But maybe some prospective.

    1) Irons are point Target tools. Meaning our intent is to hit a 4.25" circle. I think EVERYONE in my mind is trying to hole out from the fairway right? I mean we are aiming at the flag right? Irons with their spin decent and lofts have the intent to go to a certain distance.

    2) Drivers are point "area" tools, we are trying to hit the ball as far as possible period. I dont recall me ever trying to hit a specified targeted distance of 250yards or 200 yards. So forgiving drivers are intended to get as MUCH possible distance right? Same with Cavity backs. first if I recall lots of marketing hype its called"Distance" irons. Second CB are known for the perimeter weight to aid in retained ball speed on less then optimal shots. Nothing about pin point accuracy.

    3) SLDR Drivers were a bust for the main stream, the low and forward CG while reducing a bunch of spin and then the loft up was TOO much demand for most players. It aimed at the greatest faults of most higher handicappers, over spinning driver and lack of launch. BUT the huge reduction of spin was at the loss of MOI or forgiveness. WHICH EVERYONE TW included needs the most amount of help to get the ball down the fairway as efficiently as as far as possible.

    4) Working the ball..... Shots into greens require again the "POINT target Accuracy" more often than a driver requires to be worked. Most course are limited to a max of 14 drivers (4 being par 3 without regards to those that have to hit driver on those par3s) Where as how many iron shots required being worked due to pin placement and point target accuracy? While I gave up on the working the ball metric as honestly I could never do it with any type of accuracy or consistency, I can get a ball to draw or fade generally...But how much to a specified pin. So yeah.... this one I agree. is a little much I want the ball to just go straight toward my intended target line.

    5) Putting. Yikes.. this one all feels I dont recall or have ever seen a cavity putter.....nor have I heard or seen any metric, marketing for a forgiving or workable putter? So I cannot comment on this.

    TL : DR ..

    1) Drivers are point area tools for max distance to hit a general 50 yard fairway that is 150ft
    2) Irons are generally point target tools to hit a specified flag with a cup of 4.25" in diameter.

    So yes I want max forgiveness with my driver for the most amount of distance
    So yes I want max accuracy not distance for my irons.

    Brother. I make a comment about putters and you're all over the place,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,, with everything else. You really should be in politics.

    But yes, you're aiming at the 4+" hole on every iron shot and, IN GENERAL, the higher your handicap the more often you will end up CLOSER, with the CB ("MAX accuracy" in your words). I get you and others don't believe it. I don't care.

    And I'm not rehashing the whole driver/iron/whatever as that's been done to death.

    I specifically said that (virtually) "Nobody" is using a "NON-heel toe weighted" putter, i.e. a BLADE putter, and you turn it into you not recalling any "cavity back" putters. You don't see any difference in forgiveness in putters ? And you were a "7" ? Talk about "Yikes"

    Yup, I see politics in your future. LMAO

    Now go discuss shafts with the 25 handicapper who shows us his results of irons and drivers that any "9" would kill for. I suspect you are MFEO. LMAO


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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019 1:32am #386

    @nsxguy said:
    Brother. I make a comment about putters and you're all over the place,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,, with everything else. You really should be in politics.

    But yes, you're aiming at the 4+" hole on every iron shot and, IN GENERAL,** the higher your handicap the more often you will end up CLOSER, with the CB** ("MAX accuracy" in your words). I get you and others don't believe it. I don't care.

    And I'm not rehashing the whole driver/iron/whatever as that's been done to death.

    I specifically said that (virtually) "Nobody" is using a "NON-heel toe weighted) putter, i.e. a BLADE putter, and you turn it into you not recalling any cavity back putters. You don't see any difference in forgiveness in putters ? And you were a "7" ? Talk about "Yikes"

    Yup, I see politics in your future. LMAO

    Now go discuss shafts with the 25 handicapper who shows us his results of irons and drivers that any "9" would kill for. I suspect you are MFEO. LMAO

    LOL Hey you called me brother twice!!! Thanks I assume much wilder terms of endearment LOL!

    First off sorry I misdirected and admit I am still confused about the putter. So Im just going to leave a big ?????? what about a blade putter? Forgiveness. Wait you need forgiveness in a putter? Virtually nobody is using a blade putter? I found that hard to believe? (let me do some googling on that one). Dont get personal.... I thought we are debating dont get all you are a 7 yikes... jeebus....

    This is the debate and discussion that high handicappers will be closer to the hole with CB's. "You get that others don't believe it" you dont care..... well odd... its not just me, its not just 2 its "others" that dont believe that a higher handicapper WILL be closer to the hole with CBs. Thats a pretty serious statement. That I doubt you can actually prove. Let me SAY THIS UPFRONT if your statement was true for me THEN I WOULD FOR SURE BE PLAYING CB's.... That fact... if my shot shows that I would be FACTUALLY closer to the whole in which the scoring opportunity increase I would be playing CB's. But again from my experience. IT has NOT.

    HAHAAHA You would kill for his results? REALLY? Wow... okie dokie..... well praise on I HOPE you get his results!!! Ill be honest I hope I never get those results.

    As for shafts.... Well yes.... I would rather discuss that then the Dread CB vs MB at this point....because even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB in his own debate..... LOL

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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,582 ✭✭

    @Exactice808 said:

    @nsxguy said:
    Brother. I make a comment about putters and you're all over the place,,,,,,, yet again,,,,,, with everything else. You really should be in politics.

    But yes, you're aiming at the 4+" hole on every iron shot and, IN GENERAL,** the higher your handicap the more often you will end up CLOSER, with the CB** ("MAX accuracy" in your words). I get you and others don't believe it. I don't care.

    And I'm not rehashing the whole driver/iron/whatever as that's been done to death.

    I specifically said that (virtually) "Nobody" is using a "NON-heel toe weighted) putter, i.e. a BLADE putter, and you turn it into you not recalling any cavity back putters. You don't see any difference in forgiveness in putters ? And you were a "7" ? Talk about "Yikes"

    Yup, I see politics in your future. LMAO

    Now go discuss shafts with the 25 handicapper who shows us his results of irons and drivers that any "9" would kill for. I suspect you are MFEO. LMAO

    LOL Hey you called me brother twice!!! Thanks I assume much wilder terms of endearment LOL!

    First off sorry I misdirected and admit I am still confused about the putter. So Im just going to leave a big ?????? what about a blade putter? Forgiveness. Wait you need forgiveness in a putter? Virtually nobody is using a blade putter? I found that hard to believe? (let me do some googling on that one). Dont get personal.... I thought we are debating dont get all you are a 7 yikes... jeebus....

    This is the debate and discussion that high handicappers will be closer to the hole with CB's. "You get that others don't believe it" you dont care..... well odd... its not just me, its not just 2 its "others" that dont believe that a higher handicapper WILL be closer to the hole with CBs. Thats a pretty serious statement. That I doubt you can actually prove. Let me SAY THIS UPFRONT if your statement was true for me THEN I WOULD FOR SURE BE PLAYING CB's.... That fact... if my shot shows that I would be FACTUALLY closer to the whole in which the scoring opportunity increase I would be playing CB's. But again from my experience. IT has NOT.

    HAHAAHA You would kill for his results? REALLY? Wow... okie dokie..... well praise on I HOPE you get his results!!! Ill be honest I hope I never get those results.

    As for shafts.... Well yes.... I would rather discuss that then the Dread CB vs MB at this point....because even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB in his own debate..... LOL

    Whatever amount of coffee you have during the day I suggest you cut it by 75%.

    I specifically mentioned blade putters, as in the Bullseye and 8802. Google their pics. Virtually ALL putters I see on Tour and in play when I play have some sort of heel-to weighting/forgiveness.

    I didn't say I would kill for his results. I said a "9" would. And his results, disregarding his lack of length, seem pretty darn good to me. Certainly doesn't look like any 25 I've ever seen.

    And OK, I get you don't believe the CB is more forgiving and will get your misses closer to the hole. Yes, that IS what this thread is mostly about.

    "even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB" ??? Really ? LOL HE finds no difference ? A 25 ? Riiiiight !!! Now I'm convinced so no need for you and I to discuss this subject further.


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  • Exactice808Exactice808 Just want to hit ball far and go find it... Members Posts: 4,439 ✭✭

    @nsxguy said:

    Whatever amount of coffee you have during the day I suggest you cut it by 75%.

    I specifically mentioned blade putters, as in the Bullseye and 8802. Google their pics. Virtually ALL putters I see on Tour and in play when I play have some sort of heel-to weighting/forgiveness.

    I didn't say I would kill for his results. I said a "9" would. And his results, disregarding his lack of length, seem pretty darn good to me. Certainly doesn't look like any 25 I've ever seen.

    And OK, I get you don't believe the CB is more forgiving and will get your misses closer to the hole. Yes, that IS what this thread is mostly about.

    "even per his test HE FINDS no difference between the MB and CB" ??? Really ? LOL HE finds no difference ? _A 25 ? Riiiiight !!! Now I'm convinced _so no need for you and I to discuss this subject further.

    You used that line already...the coffee one....... yeah... not really funny sorry "brother"

    A "9" would like those numbers... really?? they are pretty darn good?? Really and then the NEXT sentence "right a 25" So wait you like his numbers you think a 9 would like those numbers then the next sentence you say "Right a 25" sarcastically now, not taking his comments that he see no difference in his numbers so the CB & MB are similar... WHAT???
    Um, make up your mind... is he a quality 25hdcp with data and flight info thats worthy of a 9hdcp yet he does NOT have credibility to say that he sees no difference between an CB and MB....

    Lastly... probably the most import.... WHAT? You are telling me because ALL putters now have heel-toe weighting/forgiveness. PLEASE tell me you are not implying that the weights have anything to do with INCREASING forgiveness in a putter?

    You do realize that the Weights on a putter are for swing weight, putter total weight, face balance and for toe closure manipulation right? Has nothing to do with Increasing forgiveness.
    https://www.scottycameron.com/store/product.aspx?zpid=725
    Scotty cameron one of the leaders has NOTHING about the weights in relation to face forgiveness.....

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members Posts: 3,198 ✭✭

    @MelloYello said:

    Last year was the first time I really began looking at my swing. It was eye-opening. But the results are obvious. Not only do I look better cosmetically but I'm statistically better. I’m more consistent. I’m shocked at how often I don’t feel “in the zone” now but still produce essentially the same quality of shots. And it barely took any work! It doesn't take 1,000 swings to make an adjustment. It takes 10 if you are looking at videos of each one.

    Then you can go hit the range and have fun beating 100 balls on the range as you ingrain that feel.

    Yeah that does not happen. If it did, handicaps would be half as to what they are, Tiger would not take 2 years to cement a change and Faldo would not have taken three.
    I'm pro"Pro" and video and learning true proper mechanics, mirror work etc but the human body is stupid, no speak English stupid or more precisely body does not do cognitive thought. Rare one adjustment aligns the stars, often there's 3 more to adjust that compensated. 4 wrongs make a half right, that sort of thing. Changes take 1000'sof reps to overwrite neurological maps and ingrain new ones , that's biological fact. It's why golfers who started in youth have way more potential to reach high level play or why if you did not take up an instrument by 12 at the latest you'll never be much of anything musically.

  • cliffhangercliffhanger spruce grove albertaClubWRX Posts: 1,749 ClubWRX

    @Nard_S said:

    @MelloYello said:

    Last year was the first time I really began looking at my swing. It was eye-opening. But the results are obvious. Not only do I look better cosmetically but I'm statistically better. I’m more consistent. I’m shocked at how often I don’t feel “in the zone” now but still produce essentially the same quality of shots. And it barely took any work! It doesn't take 1,000 swings to make an adjustment. It takes 10 if you are looking at videos of each one.

    Then you can go hit the range and have fun beating 100 balls on the range as you ingrain that feel.

    Yeah that does not happen. If it did, handicaps would be half as to what they are, Tiger would not take 2 years to cement a change and Faldo would not have taken three.
    I'm pro"Pro" and video and learning true proper mechanics, mirror work etc but the human body is stupid, no speak English stupid or more precisely body does not do cognitive thought. Rare one adjustment aligns the stars, often there's 3 more to adjust that compensated. 4 wrongs make a half right, that sort of thing. Changes take 1000'sof reps to overwrite neurological maps and ingrain new ones , that's biological fact. It's why golfers who started in youth have way more potential to reach high level play or why if you did not take up an instrument by 12 at the latest you'll never be much of anything musically.

    there are exceptions to every rule... EVH started playing piano, then drums at 12 and then the electric guitar well after the age of 12.


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  • IamMarkMacIamMarkMac SF Bay AreaMembers Posts: 664 ✭✭

    @Nard_S said:

    @MelloYello said:

    Last year was the first time I really began looking at my swing. It was eye-opening. But the results are obvious. Not only do I look better cosmetically but I'm statistically better. I’m more consistent. I’m shocked at how often I don’t feel “in the zone” now but still produce essentially the same quality of shots. And it barely took any work! It doesn't take 1,000 swings to make an adjustment. It takes 10 if you are looking at videos of each one.

    Then you can go hit the range and have fun beating 100 balls on the range as you ingrain that feel.

    Yeah that does not happen. If it did, handicaps would be half as to what they are, Tiger would not take 2 years to cement a change and Faldo would not have taken three.
    I'm pro"Pro" and video and learning true proper mechanics, mirror work etc but the human body is stupid, no speak English stupid or more precisely body does not do cognitive thought. Rare one adjustment aligns the stars, often there's 3 more to adjust that compensated. 4 wrongs make a half right, that sort of thing. Changes take 1000'sof reps to overwrite neurological maps and ingrain new ones , that's biological fact. It's why golfers who started in youth have way more potential to reach high level play or why if you did not take up an instrument by 12 at the latest you'll never be much of anything musically.

    I hear you. I'm a big fan of video too. I have a problem with overswing and saw it instantly once I recorded myself. Maybe a dozen or so swings later, I had it limited to parallel.
    Went out on the course and promptly started overswinging again. In game, I couldn't shorten my backswing at all. The body just wouldn't listen.

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