Leaving the pin in?

Anyone else noticing that the new rule allowing the pin to remain in is causing added time to rounds? I have found that, in serious rounds in particular, that different people are wanting the pin in and out so we are having to take the time to do this.

In a casual round, like when playing by myself, I leave the pin in. In league or tourneys, I want the pin out. I am finding that others want it put back in when they putt and it is taking more time to finish the hole.

Yes, it was a concern of mine in the off-season when the rule was announced and after playing a few events I have found that fellow competitors have different preferences. Some prefer the stick in only on downhill putts, some don't want the flag in at all, and some change their minds with each putt. It is quite annoying.

In general, leaving the pin in the cup will enhance the visual of the location of the cup.

I prefer to have the pin out when putting down Slope, simply because that will leave more margin for error instead of a good putt bouncing off the pin.

I start to see more and more tournament players leaving the pin in the cup when putting.

Yes, it is definitely adding time. No question.

I haven't seen any real time losses. Most players seem ok leaving it in, or leaving it wherever the preceding player has decided. And the rest, who have a real preference, have made their preference known in a timely manner, so there's no real lost time. Communication is the key, really.

In my old guy league, nearly everyone is leaving the pin in all the time, and play is much faster. The OB and lost ball rules have helped a lot, too.

Shortens rounds at my place, maybe 5 or 10 minutes each.

> @davep043 said:

> I haven't seen any real time losses. Most players seem ok leaving it in, or leaving it wherever the preceding player has decided. And the rest, who have a real preference, have made their preference known in a timely manner, so there's no real lost time. Communication is the key, really.

Too much waffling has been trumping communication in many instances and many just won't make their preferences known. Figure it's early days and trying to be polite and asking but occasionally if I pull it and someone isn't speaking up, the flag hits the ground and I'm just not going to keep checking in, especially when it's in for a 20 footer, out for a six footer, back in for an 8 footer, out/in for a three footer, etc. Mostly just an issue with folks I don't play with regularly and maybe once a year in league and again, it's early days, IMO.

No but has helped on a couple of down hill putts

The good thing is you don't have to have conversations like this anymore:

"Do you guys know who much a flagstick weighs?"

"Uh, no..."

"I didn't think you would."

"Why is that?"

"You haven't touched one all day."

Unintended consequence is that cups edges are being rounded and pulled up by people sticking their hands in there with the pin in. Pushing down and then pulling up.

It does help with alignment but don’t really like it

After reading the article that used science and statistics (which I do for a living) saying that leaving the pin in actually reduces the chances of a putt going in, I have opted to have it out for almost every putt. I really haven't noticed much time added though as most people that I have played with don't care either way. I could see if it was in and out based on everybody's preference for 18 holes, how that would drag out the times on the greens.

My guess is that in 10 years, we won't even remember that taking the pin out used to be a thing. Just like dropping over your shoulder.

I have not noticed a change in the pace of play due to the pin option. However, living in a windy area I have had 2 short putts not fit in the hole because the pin was leaning from a strong wind. On long lag putts I keep the pin in but anything within 10 feet I want the pin out. Most golfers I have played with in this area are adopting similar guidelines.

> @raynorfan1 said:

> My guess is that in 10 years, we won't even remember that taking the pin out used to be a thing. Just like dropping over your shoulder.

I wish they would bring that back. I saw a video clip during the USOpen of Jack doing the drop exactly like that.

> @Hellstorm said:

> After reading the article that used science and statistics (which I do for a living) saying that **leaving the pin in actually reduces the chances of a putt going in**, I have opted to have it out for almost every putt. I really haven't noticed much time added though as most people that I have played with don't care either way. I could see if it was in and out based on everybody's preference for 18 holes, how that would drag out the times on the greens.

Not trying to be condescending, but can you provide a source? Besides the article in golf? golf digest? golf weekly? (I honestly cannot remember), almost every report I have seen has shown a significant benefit for leaving the pin in.

> @macedan said:

> > @Hellstorm said:

> > After reading the article that used science and statistics (which I do for a living) saying that **leaving the pin in actually reduces the chances of a putt going in**, I have opted to have it out for almost every putt. I really haven't noticed much time added though as most people that I have played with don't care either way. I could see if it was in and out based on everybody's preference for 18 holes, how that would drag out the times on the greens.

>

> Not trying to be condescending, but can you provide a source? Besides the article in golf? golf digest? golf weekly? (I honestly cannot remember), almost every report I have seen has shown a significant benefit for leaving the pin in.

>

>

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

The link at the bottom gives all the data, if you are doing the analysis. The short story is that it helps with 3 putts, but does not significantly aid the ball going in if it has a chance.

Actually, here is the raw data: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

> @Hellstorm said:

> > @macedan said:

> > > @Hellstorm said:

> > > After reading the article that used science and statistics (which I do for a living) saying that **leaving the pin in actually reduces the chances of a putt going in**, I have opted to have it out for almost every putt. I really haven't noticed much time added though as most people that I have played with don't care either way. I could see if it was in and out based on everybody's preference for 18 holes, how that would drag out the times on the greens.

> >

> > Not trying to be condescending, but can you provide a source? Besides the article in golf? golf digest? golf weekly? (I honestly cannot remember), almost every report I have seen has shown a significant benefit for leaving the pin in.

> >

> >

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

> The link at the bottom gives all the data, if you are doing the analysis. The short story is that it helps with 3 putts, but does not significantly aid the ball going in if it has a chance.

>

> Actually, here is the raw data: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

Almost entirely contradictory to https://Not allowed because of spam.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/ (the final infographic is can be slightly misleading as it shows massive percentage differences with a tiny reference to putts that would've ended 9' past the cup). I can't recall the exact issue the m.g.s guys had with the golf digest test, but I know they were (mildly) heated about the g.digest methodology and maybe researcher if I remember correctly. At the least though, for an theory to really be plausible it needs to be valid and repeatable. Given a quick search showing results of both sides of the argument, it is up in the air for me right now.

No, I find it generally makes either no difference or saves time. Most people seem to be opting for leaving it in unless someone asks for it to be taken out (that's my attitude). But I did see one group in the distance pulling it out for one player then putting it back in for another. That's pretty dumb, in my opinion.

I much prefer it - especially on long putts. I can actually see where the hole is. I also feel less pressured about time constraints in the green - I can slightly take more time reading my putt as I don’t need to take the pin out. It’s ridiculous that you had to take the pin out anyway in my opinion. You should have the choice.

> @macedan said:

> > @Hellstorm said:

> > > @macedan said:

> > > > @Hellstorm said:

> > > > After reading the article that used science and statistics (which I do for a living) saying that **leaving the pin in actually reduces the chances of a putt going in**, I have opted to have it out for almost every putt. I really haven't noticed much time added though as most people that I have played with don't care either way. I could see if it was in and out based on everybody's preference for 18 holes, how that would drag out the times on the greens.

> > >

> > > Not trying to be condescending, but can you provide a source? Besides the article in golf? golf digest? golf weekly? (I honestly cannot remember), almost every report I have seen has shown a significant benefit for leaving the pin in.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

> > The link at the bottom gives all the data, if you are doing the analysis. The short story is that it helps with 3 putts, but does not significantly aid the ball going in if it has a chance.

> >

> > Actually, here is the raw data: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

>

> Almost entirely contradictory to https://****.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/ (the final infographic is can be slightly misleading as it shows massive percentage differences with a tiny reference to putts that would've ended 9' past the cup). I can't recall the exact issue the m.g.s guys had with the golf digest test, but I know they were (mildly) heated about the g.digest methodology and maybe researcher if I remember correctly. At the least though, for an theory to really be plausible it needs to be valid and repeatable. Given a quick search showing results of both sides of the argument, it is up in the air for me right now.

The problem with the one that I posted was it was putts moving at a constant speed towards the hole; which is a valid argument to make when you are talking about something that isn't automatic. Personally, I trust the math on the article I posted. I also agree that on a real golf course with a real golfer, there are other factors at play that the test doesn't account for. I am not here to make a case for or against leaving it in. Personally, I like it out but I have putted with it in as well.

Around here, once it's out stays out. Also, I generally don't play with indecisive players as a everything is either league play, money game or qualifiers/club championship. No different than the days of, "pull it, tend it or leave it in".

Only seen one or two "tend it"s this year so far.

do ya want it in or out, he replied, "take it out". putt ran 10 feet bye. "put the flag back in" he said . putt misses with five feet left, "take it out please" ..... poor guy standing in the fairway tryin' too shot the yardage was yelling "make your damn mind up!" I've holed more 12 plus footers with the pin in. one putts, that gotta speed up play , right ?

I leave it in by myself but take it out with others. Kind of annoying when some guys want to leave it in, but I figure that will change when they miss a couple short putts due to the pin.

> @ScottJN said:

> I leave it in by myself but take it out with others. Kind of annoying when some guys want to leave it in, but I figure that will change when they miss a couple short putts due to the pin.

I don't think I've come across anyone that actually _wants_ it left in yet. Everyone here seems to be either 'I want it out' or (possibly the majority) 'I don't care either way'.

Weird but I leave more putts short now with the flag in. I hardly ever run one by long now. Might be a visual or optics thing.

In my weekend group we've been leaving the pin in most of the time and have noticed a reduction in time on each hole (at least perceived). There's no more waiting around taking the flag out and putting it back in and together with ready-golf it seems to make some difference. I have noticed that you need to take the flag out if it's windy and that sometimes you can hit the flagstick and have the ball bounce away though. Overall I'm enjoying the new rule.

With the people I'm playing with in league and more casual rounds, about 20 different guys, everyone starts with pin in. Only a few like it out when they get within 10 feet or so and must request it as default is to keep it in. If and when it comes out no one is asking for it to be put back in. We often hole out without ever taking it out. It's definitely been a time saver. I think people have to be a little difficult with the in, out, in, out thing.

> @"sui generis" said:

> Shortens rounds at my place, maybe 5 or 10 minutes each.

Ditto, our club competition rounds - fields of around 200 - are 8-10 minutes less. Consistently. Excellent change.

> @andrue said:

> > @ScottJN said:

> > I leave it in by myself but take it out with others. Kind of annoying when some guys want to leave it in, but I figure that will change when they miss a couple short putts due to the pin.

> I don't think I've come across anyone that actually _wants_ it left in yet. Everyone here seems to be either 'I want it out' or (possibly the majority) 'I don't care either way'.

Different here. Most want it in, most of the time. But most are also indifferent once closer to he hole. I've also played a few rounds where the pin has not been removed at all during the round by anyone.