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pin position in unplayable spot on green

emoemo Members Posts: 865 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited Sep 12, 2019 2:37am in Instruction & Academy #1

was golfing yesterday having best round front nine 37, then get to tenth hole and the pin was placed on a shelf in almost unplayable position where I took a 14 put in league play . just doesn't sit right ended up with a 96, what were my option?

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  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    What do you classify as unplayable? Pictures?

    Was it ON a slope? What was the slope%? Green speed (stimp)?

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  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    What is almost unplayable mean? More details are needed.
    Obvious option is to not make a 14.

  • emoemo Members Posts: 865 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 1:26pm #4

    don't know exact speed, yes on an edge of a slop where the ball couldn't hold which would result a half foot miss would roll back down 20 feet.

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Polite rant to whoever is in charge of setting the pins.

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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,908 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Tough league. You guys don’t use esc ? As in max double bogey ( usually ) for most players ? You can’t put a 14 into a handicap score post by the way.

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  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    And what happened on the other 8 holes?

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  • oikos1oikos1 Members Posts: 2,361 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    What was the average score on the hole? Best score?

  • GoGoErkyGoGoErky Members Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @emo said:
    don't know exact speed, yes on an edge of a slop where the ball couldn't hold which would result a half foot miss would roll back down 20 feet.

    What about if you were above the hole? Was it flat? How much room between hole and slope?

  • scooterhd2scooterhd2 Members Posts: 392 ✭✭✭✭

    Did your playing partners take 14 putts as well?

  • emoemo Members Posts: 865 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The lowest score was a three putt after it was passed down I was in the first group. Most had scores of 8 10 15

  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    The great news is you were in a competition and everyone had the same pin location. if you took 14 and every one else took 20 you would be a great shape!

    As for options you have: there is Sweet Fudge All you can do about it. **** about the placement so you don't see it again but as for any retroactive action for you score - sorry. ESC will take of posting anyway.

    Bad placements happen like this in the Pro events too. Typically the issue is the pin placement is decided on and then the greens speed up for various reasons. An experienced pin setter does not (usually) make this mistake, but it does happen.

  • PepperturboPepperturbo Midwest and SouthwestMembers Posts: 15,924 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 4:29pm #13

    It may have been an unplayable spot to the OP but not to others or me. Everyone on the course faces the same conditions.

    Yesterday, walking off 18 my playing partner said the course was difficult. I listened and said nothing because I finished 2 over par and didn't see it as that difficult. One 205 yard Par 3 the pin was on a slanted portion of the green. To make birdie or par we had to be under the pin. He missed the green short and left, pitched up to the high side and putted downhill 6' past and missed that putt too, took a 5. I hit 3 iron on to the green finished under the pin, putted up to the pin for a tap in par.

    My score at 18 is the number that reflects how well I did handling the challenges. My thoughts then are the same as it is the rest of the time, just do my best, and not blame the course setup for my failure to rise to the challenge.

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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,658 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I've seen pin positions where a straight uphill putt would not come to rest within 2 or 3 feet of the hole, it would just roll back 10 or 15 feet or more. That is unfair, in my opinion. But you have to play it, as does everyone else in the competition. This kind of pin position does raise **** with the pace of play on that hole.

  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,908 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 4:55pm #15

    There are tough pins and then there are chicken shat pins. This sounds like the latter. If an uphill putt won’t stop by the hole it shouldn’t be there.

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  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 6:30pm #16

    Had this happen once, the green was still nearly bare from a long snowy winter. The grass past the hole was actually a bit longer/grown in, so you basically had to putt past the hole and leave yourself a down hill tester. One guy 5-putted from 20ft and tossed the pin into the woods lol.

    After this episode I looked it up, unfortunately there are no hard rules or regulations that dictate pin placement

  • SNIPERBBBSNIPERBBB Hit Ball Hard SE OhioMembers Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    There are only recommendations for pin placements but nothing says you can put it somewhere or even something that prevents you from literally placing windmills on the greens.

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  • YoungJediYoungJedi Members Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Krt22 said:
    Had this happen once, the green was still nearly bare from a long snowy winter. The grass past the hole was actually a bit longer/grown in, so you basically had to putt past the hole and leave yourself a down hill tester. One guy 5-putted from 20ft and tossed the pin into the woods lol.

    After this episode I looked it up, unfortunately there are no hard rules or regulations that dictate pin placement

    Correct, no rules. Just recommendations based on slope% the hole is cut on; and green speed (speed can change what slopes are allowable/not allowable).

    No definitive info from OP so hard to tell

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  • JStangJStang Members Posts: 2,556 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    I've seen this before. The course I grew up close to had their club championship and I happened to play it later that afternoon. I was just short of the green to a front pin and chipped it dead even with the hole and a few feet to the right and it rolled back to my feet. Left the next chip just below the hole and back at my feet it came again. I had to put it just beyond the pin and was terrified of the next putt.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Even at the g=highest level the greens sometimes get away. Just do your best taking comfort in the fact that everyone has to play the same pin setting.

    Steve

  • naval2006naval2006 ArgentinaMembers Posts: 989 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ve never heard of a 14 putt hole before. It seems like something’s missing in the story.

  • GungHoGolfGungHoGolf SkyTrak Afficionado Austin, TXMembers Posts: 900 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Technically, there are no USGA rules regarding pin placement, but they are pretty clear in their recommendations at https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16

    An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.

  • Snowman9000Snowman9000 Members Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Sep 9, 2019 9:07pm #23

    We had this same thing in a club championship. It was a perfect storm of the guy choosing the toughest location on the green, plus they let the green dry out for the CC, plus the wind was strong and straight down hill from that corner of the green. I 6-putted and did well to get out of there with that. The first 4 putts rolled 30 feet up to within a tap-in, then back down to my feet. The fifth one got 18 inches above the hole and miraculously stayed there.

    The sixth putt was terrifying. :o

    It ruined the tournament for many of us. So OP, I feel your pain. Basically this is a learning experience for whoever picked that location.

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  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @YoungJedi said:

    @Krt22 said:
    Had this happen once, the green was still nearly bare from a long snowy winter. The grass past the hole was actually a bit longer/grown in, so you basically had to putt past the hole and leave yourself a down hill tester. One guy 5-putted from 20ft and tossed the pin into the woods lol.

    After this episode I looked it up, unfortunately there are no hard rules or regulations that dictate pin placement

    Correct, no rules. Just recommendations based on slope% the hole is cut on; and green speed (speed can change what slopes are allowable/not allowable).

    No definitive info from OP so hard to tell

    If you followed all the recommendations, many greens wouldn't have any where to put a hole. For instance the recommend an area of 2'-3' around the hole be nearly flat.

    Q. What are the requirements for establishing a hole location on the putting green?

    A. The USGA frequently receives requests for guidelines with respect to selection of hole locations on the putting greens, particularly during competitions. There are no rules regarding hole locations, so there is no such thing as an "illegal" hole location. The USGA believes that many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. Following are specific points:

    Study the design of the hole as the architect intended it to be played. Know the length of the shot to the green and how it may be affected by the probable conditions for the day - that is, wind and other weather elements, conditions of the turf from which the shot will be played, and holding quality of the green.
    1. There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green. If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green.
    2. An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.
    3. Consider the condition of nearby turf, especially taking care to avoid old hole plugs which have not completely healed.
    4. Holes should be cut as nearly on the vertical as possible, not plumb with the contour of the green.
    5. There should be a balanced selection of hole locations for the entire course with respect to left, right, central, front and back positions. For example, avoid too many left positions with resulting premium on drawn or hooked shots.
    6. For a competition played over several days, the course should be kept in balance daily as to degree of difficulty. In a stroke competition, the first hole of the first round is as important as the last hole of the last round, and so the course should not be set up appreciably more difficult for any round - balanced treatment is the aim. An old concept of making the course progressively harder round after round is fallacious. One form of balanced daily treatment is to select six quite difficult, six which are moderately difficult and six which are relatively easy.
    7. During practice days before a competition, locate holes in areas not to be used during the competition and which will not result in areas to be used being impaired by foot traffic.
    8. Anticipate the players' traffic patterns. Locate holes for early rounds so that good hole locations for later rounds will not be spoiled by players leaving the green.
    9. In match play, a hole location may, if necessary, be changed during a round provided the players in each match play with the hole in the same location. In stroke play, Rule 33-2b requires that all competitors in a single round play with each hole cut in the same position, but see Exception to that Rule. When 36 holes are played in one day, it is not customary for hole locations to be changed between rounds, but there is no Rule to prohibit changing them. If they are changed, all players should be informed.
    10. The greenkeeper who cuts the holes should make sure that the Rules of Golf are observed, especially the requirements that the hole not exceed 4 ¼ inches in outer diameter and that the hole-liner be sunk at least one inch below the putting green surface.
    11.

  • emoemo Members Posts: 865 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am a 10 handicap golfer, I consider myself an average Putter of around 32 putts per round. I thought it was very unfair and just didn’t know if there were some unwritten rules that I didn’t know about.

  • ShipwreckShipwreck Members Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    We see posts like this somewhat frequently, and while not exactly a “balanced” hole location as stated by the USGA above, it’s not illegal because technically there is no illegal hole location. Which brings up an interesting point though. Should there be actual rules that rated courses need to follow as far as where holes can and can’t be located?

    Outside of the “Greenskeepers Revenge” style tournaments where the aforementioned hole would barely scratch the surface, should hole locations be regulated in the same way that equipment and the Rules of Golf are?

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  • Hateto3PuttHateto3Putt Smoking Makes You Look Cool! Members Posts: 6,326 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

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  • magnus7319magnus7319 A hungry dog hunts best - Lee Trevino Members Posts: 2,298 ✭✭✭✭✭✭

    A 14 putt?

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  • 2bGood2bGood Members Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @Shipwreck said:
    We see posts like this somewhat frequently, and while not exactly a “balanced” hole location as stated by the USGA above, it’s not illegal because technically there is no illegal hole location. Which brings up an interesting point though. Should there be actual rules that rated courses need to follow as far as where holes can and can’t be located?

    Outside of the “Greenskeepers Revenge” style tournaments where the aforementioned hole would barely scratch the surface, should hole locations be regulated in the same way that equipment and the Rules of Golf are?

    I say no. Every green/hole is so different it would be too challenging to impose a standard hole placement. Golfers do a great job of policing this themselves in this instance. Greenskeepers hear it very fast when they screw up a hole location and as result seldom allow this to happen.

    Like I say, though this happens, it happens on one hole once every few years at most clubs. The odds of it occurring are like 1 in 13000. If it happens more often course put a stop as golfers complain.

  • Krt22Krt22 East BayMembers Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    @2bGood said:

    @Shipwreck said:
    We see posts like this somewhat frequently, and while not exactly a “balanced” hole location as stated by the USGA above, it’s not illegal because technically there is no illegal hole location. Which brings up an interesting point though. Should there be actual rules that rated courses need to follow as far as where holes can and can’t be located?

    Outside of the “Greenskeepers Revenge” style tournaments where the aforementioned hole would barely scratch the surface, should hole locations be regulated in the same way that equipment and the Rules of Golf are?

    I say no. Every green/hole is so different it would be too challenging to impose a standard hole placement. Golfers do a great job of policing this themselves in this instance. Greenskeepers hear it very fast when they screw up a hole location and as result seldom allow this to happen.

    Like I say, though this happens, it happens on one hole once every few years at most clubs. The odds of it occurring are like 1 in 13000. If it happens more often course put a stop as golfers complain.

    I talked about this once with a playing partner after the course had some pretty tough pin locations, he mentioned at some courses now the greens keeper doesn't even pick the pins, it's done via software such that the entire green get's equal foot traffic to minimize overuse of any one part

  • N0rs3manN0rs3man Members Posts: 106 ✭✭✭

    We had a scramble tourney last weekend. Hole 5 is teo tier with a decent slope back to front. Pin was mid tier. We had 20 footer uphill, and all balls stopped next to pin and rolled back to 15ft. The group we were playing with were above the pin about 12 ft, it was sink or it have an 18fter back. They took a mulligan and somehow managed to hit a divot that stopped the ball about 4 feet short.

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