Main reason to play blades?

[Tree Levino]

> @chisag said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

>

>

> ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

 

You are consistently the most sane person in these blade vs CB sh*tshows. There is legitimate science in ballspeed retention on miss hits with a CB. I really don't know how anybody on this forum that knows/cares about golf could deny that. You also lose MOI (purposefully) with blades yet people say you don't lose directional forgiveness. You can't have it both ways. I played in 30mph wind on Sunday and Monday. Had a memorable shot that works well for this debate. I had strong wind into and off the left, super wide green and pin tucked left corner, bunker in the middle and massive knuckle straight in the center of the green - basically, you don't want to miss right. 145 into the flag and the shot was definitely a knocked down low penetrating draw/almost hook into the pin. Everything was perfect with the setup, path, swing, etc, but I caught the ball ever-so-slightly out the toe side and the face opened a touch. Hit the green on the far right side and got my distance perfect but had an awful putt. Was lucky to judge my speed well and walked off with par but flat out that shot with a CB is closer to the flag. Not an issue, I'll keep playing blades in my scoring clubs because of how many shots I DO pull off with them but if you are painting the face good luck.

 

Also, the idea that you're going to have a better golf swing because you have to using blades is a very small-minded argument in my mind. Go look at the GIR stats from 150 and out and tell me how many of those players are using CBs. Don't tell me it's money - they'll play whatever they think it going to help them win. Some play blades, others play CBs. They're ALL working on their swings and believe me, I don't think the CBs are holding them back.

[RobotDoctor]

> @chisag said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

>

>

> ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

 

I don't blame the club. **I** put a huge premium on grooving my swing. As little as I play (like most of us) compared to a touring pro any little bit helps. A CB iron is a game improvement iron and would offer a bigger sweet spot so grooving a swing wouldn't be as critical. With a blade, be slightly off and you lose yardage and accuracy. That's a simple fact. I play blades because I like them both in terms of performance and looks. I hone my swing so it is repeatable because very good to great golf using blades requires it. I know I don't play enough to be great so I'm just working on being good. I don't blame clubs for anything. I just know what it takes for me to play blades.

[BIG STU]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > I love blades. I'm tinkering with starting to build a bit. Just epoxied up a couple Srixon z945 irons to try out.

> > >

> > > Have had three shocker rounds in a row. The first one I was swinging pretty terribly for the whole first half of the round - mostly due to over swinging. I calmed down and started hitting one more club and knocking my shots down. Was hitting darts with my MBs. The best part is the spin control. Yesterday I hit a wild tee shot and was under a tree but had a bit of room to get the ball out. It was 165 with wind slightly down and off the right. Green has a mammoth bunker in front, and forest on the left. Pin is back left. I'm in the right side of the fairway. Pretty much worst case scenario given how shallow the green is. I hit a trap cut up against the wind with my 8i MB - couldn't see the shot take off because of the tree but it felt pure - duck out from behind the tree and see my ball dead stop 5 feet from the pin. No joke that shot would be nearly impossible with a CB. It was exactly what blades are made for. Shot 10 over and that one shot made the round feel good.

> >

> > Trap cut love it---- My standard stock shot-- comes from fighting a rope hook in my early golfing years. Something no one has brought up and you already know. For me at least it is easier to trap the ball with a thin soled butter knife than it is with a thicker rounded soled CB.

>

> Stu, sounds like you and Ben Hogan are twins! :D

>

> I agree with Stu, a thinner sole seems to work better when working the ball. At times a "straight" shot isn't going to work and a blade is easier to get the ball to draw or fade. My experience is that perimeter weighted irons tend to fly strait even when I am trying to draw or fade the flight of the ball.

 

Robot since you know which way is up I am gonna tell you a funny one involving working the ball. Sunday afternoon I was messing around playing a practice round at my home course. Our 8th hole is a par 3 up the hill and my yardage was 175. Now remember it was a practice round and I had my shag bag with me which has all kinds of balls in it. Pin was tucked on the left side behind the trap. That is my most favorite pin position. It was late in the day and a little cool so I pulled the 4 iron. Set up for my baby cut and flushed it started cutting a little bit and straightened up right in the trap pin high. Now I have hit that shot 1000 times over the years and hit it good. No wind and I am going ??????? WTF. When I got to the trap I realized tactical screw up---- It was a Bridgestone E-6 ball. Those balls are designed to go straight and I absolutely can not work one of those. I laughed and said well the Bridgestone engineers did their job. I had it and a older 330 RX in my pocket and had switched balls. I did blast it out to about 6 feet ( I have also hit that shot 1000 times too) and made the putt with the old school Bullseye. Put the old 330 and the E-6 back in the shag bag and pulled out two beat to death Pro Vs and played the rest of the round

[BIG STU]

> @chisag said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

>

>

> ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

 

I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

[RobotDoctor]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @chisag said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> >

> >

> > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

>

> I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

 

 

I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

[pholway]

Ego

[RichieHunt]

Main reason should be to keep the launch low and the trajectory windows down. Tiger for instance, generates a ton of club speed so he doesn't need the distance or help getting the ball to go high in the air. Tiger can simply use his speed and Spin Loft conditions to hit a low launch blade far enough and high enough and he can use the extra spin to help him hold longer approaches and firmer greens.

 

In the past I used blades because cavity backs had grinds/soles combinations that didn't interact with the turf that well for me. But we're seeing more Cavity Backs or Player's Distance irons with soles/grinds that are more similar to blades.

 

I now play a Player's Distance irons (Honma TW737P). I have NEVER gone to cavity backs for more forgiveness and outside of some really old blade from the 70's, I have NEVER felt like forgiveness was a big detriment with blades. Particularly these modern blades which are very forgiving. Going to the Honma's was about adding some extra distance so I didn't have to take a longer shafted club into greens as I don't generate as much speed as I used to and finding a set with a sole/grind combination that interacts with the turf to my liking as well as getting a ball flight that works for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[NRJyzr]

> @RichieHunt said:

> I now play a Player's Distance irons (Honma TW737P). I have NEVER gone to cavity backs for more forgiveness and outside of some really old blade from the 70's, I have NEVER felt like forgiveness was a big detriment with blades. Particularly these modern blades which are very forgiving. Going to the Honma's was about adding some extra distance so I didn't have to take a longer shafted club into greens as I don't generate as much speed as I used to and finding a set with a sole/grind combination that interacts with the turf to my liking as well as getting a ball flight that works for me.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> RH

 

I think a part of the problem with many of the classic sets of yore is the crazy high CG. I seem to remember seeing some data showing some with a vertical CG of roughly 1", if not higher. That's a bit much.

 

The proximity to the hosel is more commonly mentioned, but I'm not so sure which is a greater "issue"...

 

When looking at pure forgiveness, the MacGregor CF4000 has an MOI that's quite close to the Eye2. That CG is only 0.76" from the hosel centerline and is 0.937" vertically, makes that MOI a bit less useful. Ugh.

[chisag]

... Maybe I wasn't clear Stu. I am not saying what you should play or questioning if you play better with MB's. What I am saying is if you concentrate more with MB's because they are less forgiving that is simply being mentally weak. The goal is to make the best swing possible and hit the dead center every time you hit a shot regardless of what iron you are playing. For better players including those on tour, that never changes regardless of what club they are using. There isn't a Pro on the planet that hits a shot with a forgiving mid/long iron and thinks "I went after that more recklessly than if I were playing MB's." I doubt Annika ever got sloppy with her GI's. I am always a little amused at those that use that as an excuse for playing MB's. There are only 2 reasons to play MB's. You enjoy playing them and/or you play better using them. I think both apply to you.

[dmecca2]

Im a +2.5 so I dont need any help getting the ball in the air. When I switched to blades this year from AP2's I immediately noticed a more piercing/lower ballflight. I gained almost 10 yards on into the wind shots.

[RobotDoctor]

> @chisag said:

> ... Maybe I wasn't clear Stu. I am not saying what you should play or questioning if you play better with MB's. What I am saying is if you concentrate more with MB's because they are less forgiving that is simply being mentally weak. The goal is to make the best swing possible and hit the dead center every time you hit a shot regardless of what iron you are playing. For better players including those on tour, that never changes regardless of what club they are using. There isn't a Pro on the planet that hits a shot with a forgiving mid/long iron and thinks "I went after that more recklessly than if I were playing MB's." I doubt Annika ever got sloppy with her GI's. I am always a little amused at those that use that as an excuse for playing MB's. There are only 2 reasons to play MB's. You enjoy playing them and/or you play better using them. I think both apply to you.

 

Are we talking touring professional golfers or just the recreational golfer. These are two completely different golfing types. With regard to what the touring pros play I don't really care. I don't play a golf club because some tour pro got shot plays a particular club. Anyone with any inkling of knowledge of how clubs for the pros works knows that their clubs are custom tuned to their preferences. This included loft, lie, head shape (generally in terms of irons), weight, shaft combinations, etc. Simply put, we don't play the same equipment. Could it be some recreational golfers do indeed play game improvement clubs because it benefits their occasional foray to the golf course? How many recreational golfers practice (with a purpose) on a regular basis. I'm not talking of a Friday night to Top Golf, I mean real practice on grass on the range working on a swing or particular shot. I would venture not many. I agree we are all working on a repeating swing where impact is in the sweet spot of the club. However, mentally weak? To call or refer to someone that way without knowing them or playing them is a bit presumptuous, don't you think? Why can't some accept there is a segment of golfers who simply prefer playing blades. Especially some of us who have played for 4 or 5 decades and this is what we grew up (in golf) with.

[Jack Pearsall]

He plays mostly players clubs because he likes the feedback. Plus he likes bargains and used blades are cheaper.

But he uses forged CB nowadays, they offer a tiny bit of help on toeish hits...but still give JP good feedback...he’s finding as he gets older that the old S300 are becoming a bit much, both in terms of performance but also carry weight. 135g shaft is too much around the 13th hole...

...

[RobotDoctor]

> @"Jack Pearsall" said:

> He plays mostly players clubs because he likes the feedback. Plus he likes bargains and used blades are cheaper.

> But he uses forged CB nowadays, they offer a tiny bit of help on toeish hits...but still give JP good feedback...he’s finding as he gets older that the old S300 are becoming a bit much, both in terms of performance but also carry weight. 135g shaft is too much around the 13th hole...

> ...

 

Getting old sucks. I know your pain! :D

[mahonie]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > >

> > >

> > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> >

> > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

>

>

> I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

 

I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

 

My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

[RobotDoctor]

> @mahonie said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> > >

> > > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

> >

> >

> > I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

>

> I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

>

> My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

 

MP4s? A little Faldo homage here? B)

[chisag]

... Robot Doctor I don't want to beat a dead that has already been beaten too many times, and I am not advocating one iron over another. But you do not seem to be comprehending what I am saying. ALL I am saying, _without any comment on what kind of iron you choose to play_, is this: If you _**can't**_ groove a swing with a GI but you _**can**_ groove a swing with a MB, that would be the very definition of mentally weak. Ball striking and producing your best swing is not iron dependent. I get so tired of reading "I got sloppy when hitting GI's because I knew I could get away with it. I can't get away with a sloppy swings when hitting MB's and it made me a better ball striker." If you put the same amount of practice and concentration hitting GI's as you did MB's you would not be a sloppy ball striker. If you don't understand that is mentally weak, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[RobotDoctor]

At the end of the day does it really matter what the main reason a person plays blades? No, it doesn't. Every golfer should play what they want. All I know is that I have two sets of CBs that are going to be listed in the classified section because the results they produced weren't significantly better than what I am playing now. Maybe these are the wrong CBs for me but nonetheless I prefer blades. If someone wants to buy me a new set of CBs for me to play then ok, I'll try them. If not, I will play what I want. No ego, machismo, holding on to old glory days, etc for me. I just prefer blades and could care less what anyone else thinks or who is looking in my bag. I play blades for me.

[BIG STU]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @RichieHunt said:

> > I now play a Player's Distance irons (Honma TW737P). I have NEVER gone to cavity backs for more forgiveness and outside of some really old blade from the 70's, I have NEVER felt like forgiveness was a big detriment with blades. Particularly these modern blades which are very forgiving. Going to the Honma's was about adding some extra distance so I didn't have to take a longer shafted club into greens as I don't generate as much speed as I used to and finding a set with a sole/grind combination that interacts with the turf to my liking as well as getting a ball flight that works for me.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > RH

>

> I think a part of the problem with many of the classic sets of yore is the crazy high CG. I seem to remember seeing some data showing some with a vertical CG of roughly 1", if not higher. That's a bit much.

>

> The proximity to the hosel is more commonly mentioned, but I'm not so sure which is a greater "issue"...

>

> When looking at pure forgiveness, the MacGregor CF4000 has an MOI that's quite close to the Eye2. That CG is only 0.76" from the hosel centerline and is 0.937" vertically, makes that MOI a bit less useful. Ugh.

 

Yep I have 2 sets of 1962 CF-4000s and I can still hit them--- One of the sets was my old man's he got back in 62 when he was on the Mac Staff---- So basically I still own one set that I learned on--- One drawback is my back can no longer take those old Propel 2 shafts. My other set when I find a set of Apex#2s I will build like my VIPs. Like I told Robot I grew up on Mac and Spalding blades.

 

Richie I know exactly what you are talking about on losing swing speed. For me it does not bother me one iota that now I have to take a 6 iron at 150yards at sea level. Used to be a 8 iron--- LOL I just roll with the flow

[BIG STU]

> @mahonie said:

> > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> > >

> > > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

> >

> >

> > I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

>

> I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

>

> My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

 

You nailed it there bud. That is the exact way I sum up a shot but will admit on some courses I use a range finder. But I never use one when playing strictly vintage golf with my blades and persimmon woods.

 

Man O Man like your kid he must be a chip off the old block liking the old Macs and MP-4s. Yep if he can hit that 2 iron he can hit anything

[vman]

The main reasons are you like the look, feel and ball flight.

[RobotDoctor]

> @chisag said:

> ... Robot Doctor I don't want to beat a dead that has already been beaten too many times, and I am not advocating one iron over another. But you do not seem to be comprehending what I am saying. ALL I am saying, _without any comment on what kind of iron you choose to play_, is this: If you _**can't**_ groove a swing with a GI but you _**can**_ groove a swing with a MB, that would be the very definition of mentally weak. Ball striking and producing your best swing is not iron dependent. I get so tired of reading "I got sloppy when hitting GI's because I knew I could get away with it. I can't get away with a sloppy swings when hitting MB's and it made me a better ball striker." If you put the same amount of practice and concentration hitting GI's as you did MB's you would not be a sloppy ball striker. If you don't understand that is mentally weak, we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

I agree with you. A golfer should groove their swing to what ever they are playing. The type of iron makes absolutely no difference in grooving a swing. Length and lie of a club is a determining factor, not whether a club has a cavity or not. I also agree that we all should groove our swings so that contact is made in the center of the club. That's an on going quest but attainable with good fundamentals and a repeating swing. I also agree 100% that a CB iron isn't going to make anyone a better ball striker. All I am saying is that CBs offer a wee bit larger sweet spot and results will be more consistent when hitting a ball on the sweet spot. Simply look at the 460cc titanium woods today compared to a MacGregor 693 driver. The results of a toeish hit on the titanium driver will be dramatically better than a toeish hit on a 693. Why? Sweet spot of a dime on the 693 compared to a perimeter weighted club with large sweet spot of a modern day driver. My point is, taking the grooved swing element out of the equation, a CB iron will benefit a slight mishit and the feel might be muted. Another question is how many people can tell exactly where they hit the ball on the face just by feel? My blades have a certain feel if I hit the ball slightly off center towards the toe or towards the heel. I simply know where I hit the ball. CB irons I have tried (and I have tried a lot of them over the years) are harder to discern exactly where I hit the ball because the feel is transmitted along the perimeter of the iron.

 

It seems that we actually are in general agreement across the board. Maybe we were talking circles around each other. Hopefully this post shows we are in agreement pretty much on this issue. :)

[mahonie]

> @RobotDoctor said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> > > >

> > > > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

> > >

> > >

> > > I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

> >

> > I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

> >

> > My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

>

> MP4s? A little Faldo homage here? B)

 

Of course. Watching Faldo play every shot with shape together with Seve escaping from everywhere lit my golf fire as it were. A lot of my playing partners still play Mizuno irons because of Faldo’s association.

 

Iirc Mr Hogan said Faldo was the best iron player he’d ever seen ...including himself!

[chippa13]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> > > >

> > > > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

> > >

> > >

> > > I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

> >

> > I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

> >

> > My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

>

> You nailed it there bud. That is the exact way I sum up a shot but will admit on some courses I use a range finder. But I never use one when playing strictly vintage golf with my blades and persimmon woods.

>

> Man O Man like your kid he must be a chip off the old block liking the old Macs and MP-4s. Yep if he can hit that 2 iron he can hit anything

 

Then I must be the outlier who plays a "feel game" with his set of game improvement irons. I just wish something would make me focus more.

[RichieHunt]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @NRJyzr said:

> > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > I now play a Player's Distance irons (Honma TW737P). I have NEVER gone to cavity backs for more forgiveness and outside of some really old blade from the 70's, I have NEVER felt like forgiveness was a big detriment with blades. Particularly these modern blades which are very forgiving. Going to the Honma's was about adding some extra distance so I didn't have to take a longer shafted club into greens as I don't generate as much speed as I used to and finding a set with a sole/grind combination that interacts with the turf to my liking as well as getting a ball flight that works for me.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > RH

> >

> > I think a part of the problem with many of the classic sets of yore is the crazy high CG. I seem to remember seeing some data showing some with a vertical CG of roughly 1", if not higher. That's a bit much.

> >

> > The proximity to the hosel is more commonly mentioned, but I'm not so sure which is a greater "issue"...

> >

> > When looking at pure forgiveness, the MacGregor CF4000 has an MOI that's quite close to the Eye2. That CG is only 0.76" from the hosel centerline and is 0.937" vertically, makes that MOI a bit less useful. Ugh.

>

> Yep I have 2 sets of 1962 CF-4000s and I can still hit them--- One of the sets was my old man's he got back in 62 when he was on the Mac Staff---- So basically I still own one set that I learned on--- One drawback is my back can no longer take those old Propel 2 shafts. My other set when I find a set of Apex#2s I will build like my VIPs. Like I told Robot I grew up on Mac and Spalding blades.

>

> Richie I know exactly what you are talking about on losing swing speed. For me it does not bother me one iota that now I have to take a 6 iron at 150yards at sea level. Used to be a 8 iron--- LOL I just roll with the flow

 

I've played blades since I got into the game at 11 years old. One thing me and my friends used to do that I never seen done anywhere else is that we would swap clubs with each other all of the time and then swap them back at the end of the season to the rightful owner. So if I had a set of MacGregor Muirfield blades they may get swapped with a friend who had some Hogan Apex blades and then I may swap them with a different friend for some Wilson Staff Goosenecks (for the Apex blades). It was like the natural thing to do, so much so that when I started to play college golf I thought that's how everybody did it. I guess it's the broke Upstate NY kid way of being a club-ho. In college, my coach forced me into some Titleist 962's. I flat out hated those things and preferred my Ram FX Tour Grinds instead. Those were butter. Coincidentally, they could be used to spread butter on your toast as they were that small.

 

The only cavity backs or player distance irons I've really felt good with the turf interaction were the Mizuno MP-62's and now these Honma TW737P's. The P790's are good with the 4, 5 and 6 iron, but start to get a little wonky at the 7-iron.

 

But even a few years ago I started to collect a bunch of different blades. In particular, I really liked the old Hogan blades. The 1966 PC5's (2.5 inch hosel) and the Apex PC's from 1983 were my favorites. I will get my set of PC5's re-chromed with new shafts in them sometime in my life. The only problem I have with them is the blade edge is super sharp and they probably have no bounce on them. But the Apex PC is probably as good as any pure blade on the market today in terms of performance.

 

A few years ago I started to experiment with the Single Length concept. The biggest thing I saw from trying a few of the different irons was how easy it was to hit the long irons straight. I also noticed that the short irons curved a bit more than your standard set.

 

My conclusion is that the length of the shaft probably plays a larger role in our ability to hit the ball straight that we think as I had the same iron number (4 and 5-irons), but the only thing that was different was the single length shafts were much shorter and I was able to hit them straighter. Conversely, the shorter clubs in the single length are much longer shafts and the ball curved more.

 

That's why I started to experiment with Players Distance irons...being able to hit them 1-2 clubs longer than blades could mean hitting them much straighter. And any loss of spin due to the Players distance design could be made up by taking 1-2 less clubs on the approach shot.

 

So, it's not that I mind hitting a blade 165-170 yards, but I think there's likely a distinct advantage to hitting an 8-iron players distance iron that far.

 

 

 

 

RH

[mahonie]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> > > >

> > > > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

> > >

> > >

> > > I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

> >

> > I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

> >

> > My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

>

> You nailed it there bud. That is the exact way I sum up a shot but will admit on some courses I use a range finder. But I never use one when playing strictly vintage golf with my blades and persimmon woods.

>

> Man O Man like your kid he must be a chip off the old block liking the old Macs and MP-4s. Yep if he can hit that 2 iron he can hit anything

 

That old 2-iron has certainly helped him find the centre of the face. His word to describe the feel of the Pro Cs is “Mushy!” which I think is a bit harsh.

 

You wouldn’t believe how close his swing his to mine...which is not necessarily a good thing! I’m going to book him some lessons with our local pro...Mizuno blade player...to make sure he gets the basics right and before I mess him up too much!!

[BIG STU]

> @mahonie said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > > @RobotDoctor said:

> > > > > > > Perimeter weighted irons create a larger sweet spot so a swing can be off a bit and the results still produce good results (distance and accuracy). This puts less premium of grooving a swing. There are some of us who believe a well honed swing is a better answer to playing good golf. The problem is that this requires an excellent foundation of good technique and fundamentals, time to work on the swing, and playing time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ... _**YOU**_ put less premium on grooving a swing, the iron has nothing to do with it. People that make their living on Pro Tours playing golf, play forgiving irons and none of them are any less serious about their swing and ball contact. I have MB's I play for fun but my serious golf is with forged CB's and I put no more or less concentration on making the very best swing I can make regardless of what club I am using. Your milage obviously varies, but don't blame the club.

> > > > >

> > > > > I see your point but I will add some food for thought and I think Robot and myself are on the same thought here. There are two types of golfers mechanical and instinct. Me I am of the instinct and feel variety. Now some guys like me grew up playing butter knife thin soled blades. Subconciously we have developed a feel of AOA with the butter knife blades. For me it is all about the AOA and turf interaction. And no I am not going to lie and say my Macgregors have the buttery soft feel of a Mizuno or Miura. I know you are a little older than I am but I have learned over the years that I play better when my eyes tell my body what to do without involving my brain. But that is just me. LOl as much as you and I over the years on both forums we are on have shared the same thoughts this is the one time we may differ. If I am playing seriously which I do not anymore one of my sets of Mac blades will be in the bag. But I will agree that some guys play better with forged players CBs too. Variety makes the world go round and round.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I definitely agree on the instinct and feel type of player. I look at what I’m presented with a shot (lie, slope, wind, obstructions, pin placement, slope of the green, best place to miss, etc.) then envision the shot. I practice to hone my swing, I attempt to play with instinct and feel. Excellent description. Thanks Stu!

> > >

> > > I agree with you both on this. I’m very much a feel player... I’m the only golfer in my group who doesn’t have a range finder or GPS basically because I don’t need one. I see the shot, the club I’m going to use comes immediately to mind, I focus on the target and hit the shot. I’m rarely out distance wise...direction may be a bit patchy though...ha ha!!

> > >

> > > My lad has just started to play and is honing his swing with my Mac VIP Limited 2-iron from the early 1970s...his choice not mine. I took my Mac Pro Cs for him to use but he favours the older Mac and my MP4s. After a couple of range sessions he has made a lot of progress and has really got the bug.

> >

> > You nailed it there bud. That is the exact way I sum up a shot but will admit on some courses I use a range finder. But I never use one when playing strictly vintage golf with my blades and persimmon woods.

> >

> > Man O Man like your kid he must be a chip off the old block liking the old Macs and MP-4s. Yep if he can hit that 2 iron he can hit anything

>

> That old 2-iron has certainly helped him find the centre of the face. His word to describe the feel of the Pro Cs is “Mushy!” which I think is a bit harsh.

>

> You wouldn’t believe how close his swing his to mine...which is not necessarily a good thing! I’m going to book him some lessons with our local pro...Mizuno blade player...to make sure he gets the basics right and before I mess him up too much!!

 

I believe he has already developed a good feel at an early age. LOL the Pro82s feel mushy compared to old Vips. He nailed it from my experience

[BIG STU]

> @RichieHunt said:

> > @"BIG STU" said:

> > > @NRJyzr said:

> > > > @RichieHunt said:

> > > > I now play a Player's Distance irons (Honma TW737P). I have NEVER gone to cavity backs for more forgiveness and outside of some really old blade from the 70's, I have NEVER felt like forgiveness was a big detriment with blades. Particularly these modern blades which are very forgiving. Going to the Honma's was about adding some extra distance so I didn't have to take a longer shafted club into greens as I don't generate as much speed as I used to and finding a set with a sole/grind combination that interacts with the turf to my liking as well as getting a ball flight that works for me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > RH

> > >

> > > I think a part of the problem with many of the classic sets of yore is the crazy high CG. I seem to remember seeing some data showing some with a vertical CG of roughly 1", if not higher. That's a bit much.

> > >

> > > The proximity to the hosel is more commonly mentioned, but I'm not so sure which is a greater "issue"...

> > >

> > > When looking at pure forgiveness, the MacGregor CF4000 has an MOI that's quite close to the Eye2. That CG is only 0.76" from the hosel centerline and is 0.937" vertically, makes that MOI a bit less useful. Ugh.

> >

> > Yep I have 2 sets of 1962 CF-4000s and I can still hit them--- One of the sets was my old man's he got back in 62 when he was on the Mac Staff---- So basically I still own one set that I learned on--- One drawback is my back can no longer take those old Propel 2 shafts. My other set when I find a set of Apex#2s I will build like my VIPs. Like I told Robot I grew up on Mac and Spalding blades.

> >

> > Richie I know exactly what you are talking about on losing swing speed. For me it does not bother me one iota that now I have to take a 6 iron at 150yards at sea level. Used to be a 8 iron--- LOL I just roll with the flow

>

> I've played blades since I got into the game at 11 years old. One thing me and my friends used to do that I never seen done anywhere else is that we would swap clubs with each other all of the time and then swap them back at the end of the season to the rightful owner. So if I had a set of MacGregor Muirfield blades they may get swapped with a friend who had some Hogan Apex blades and then I may swap them with a different friend for some Wilson Staff Goosenecks (for the Apex blades). It was like the natural thing to do, so much so that when I started to play college golf I thought that's how everybody did it. I guess it's the broke Upstate NY kid way of being a club-ho. In college, my coach forced me into some Titleist 962's. I flat out hated those things and preferred my Ram FX Tour Grinds instead. Those were butter. Coincidentally, they could be used to spread butter on your toast as they were that small.

>

> The only cavity backs or player distance irons I've really felt good with the turf interaction were the Mizuno MP-62's and now these Honma TW737P's. The P790's are good with the 4, 5 and 6 iron, but start to get a little wonky at the 7-iron.

>

> But even a few years ago I started to collect a bunch of different blades. In particular, I really liked the old Hogan blades. The 1966 PC5's (2.5 inch hosel) and the Apex PC's from 1983 were my favorites. I will get my set of PC5's re-chromed with new shafts in them sometime in my life. The only problem I have with them is the blade edge is super sharp and they probably have no bounce on them. But the Apex PC is probably as good as any pure blade on the market today in terms of performance.

>

> A few years ago I started to experiment with the Single Length concept. The biggest thing I saw from trying a few of the different irons was how easy it was to hit the long irons straight. I also noticed that the short irons curved a bit more than your standard set.

>

> My conclusion is that the length of the shaft probably plays a larger role in our ability to hit the ball straight that we think as I had the same iron number (4 and 5-irons), but the only thing that was different was the single length shafts were much shorter and I was able to hit them straighter. Conversely, the shorter clubs in the single length are much longer shafts and the ball curved more.

>

> That's why I started to experiment with Players Distance irons...being able to hit them 1-2 clubs longer than blades could mean hitting them much straighter. And any loss of spin due to the Players distance design could be made up by taking 1-2 less clubs on the approach shot.

>

> So, it's not that I mind hitting a blade 165-170 yards, but I think there's likely a distinct advantage to hitting an 8-iron players distance iron that far.

>

>

>

>

> RH

 

The PC Hogans I never could get the feel of for me---- But my 1954 Precisions that is another ball game love those old things stock Green Label TT shafts and all. Also have a set of BH Grinds I am fond of ----- but those #4 Apex shafts are a little rough on my back these days. Now I am not biased in any shape of form and I can see exactly where you are coming from in your case. Remember you are one of the members when you update the bag I gotta tune in to see what you are doing next

[braincramp52]

I don't play blades anymore but when I did I never really saw a big difference between my scores. I'd love to get another set sometime because they look pretty.?

[braincramp52]

Another thing is if you play in a area with firm or hard golf courses I'd play blades all the time.

[aquapig]

> @JDMRN81 said:

> > @tsecor said:

> > "I play blades to p-iss off the people who hate when 10+ HDCP play blades" that's a quote from a buddy of mine

>

> Are there really that many people who care what another person plays? I’ve never once heard anyone on the course say anything negative about the equipment someone is playing.

>

 

The person playing certain equipment are more concerned with what people think than people who actually care what they're playing or even paying attention.