Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[flog2]

Scratch golfers dont miss many fairways...

 

Scratch golfers get up and down a lot from around the green....

 

Scratch golfers are excellent putters...........

 

 

 

with all that why wouldnt the majority shoot under 85?

[Man_O_War]

i broke 80 first time i played congressional.. and i am not scratch these days..so why can't a scratch player break 85 at Augusta...of course it can be done.

 

I have played Amen Corner..in 1 under... Renditions Golf Course

 

respectfully thats a horrible analogy. Have you attended a masters? if you did you wouldnt be comparing those 2 places...

 

 

i have not.. based on TV and over the years..Augusta is an easier driving course than Congressional which is a US Open ready track..remember if a scratch player's objective is to break 85... he lays up on all par 5s for par objective. Takes bogey on the watery holes, 11 for example, get's lucky on 12...16.. you are a little overwhelmed by your obsession with Augusta..it's a golf course...a scratch player can break 85. Relax...maybe you can't break 90 there...

 

Easy there..Congressional is a fine course and i have played there several times.Its not in augustas stratosphere. im a+4 mini tour pro and am not obsessed with augusta.I respect the historic difficulty of that course, thers no other place like it on earth.ive been there and know the actual reality of the demands that the op sets forth. When you see #2 & 8 & 13 & 15 in person and you see how difficult it is to layup on those par 5s when the fairway slopes 30-35 degrees downhill and the tightest lie possible those arent bogey holes, theyre doubles waiting to happen. you wouldnt break 95 there simply because of your arrogant attitude.youd be brought back to earth real fast after doubling or tripling #1. ive seen wednesday practice rounds where top tour guys were 4 putting, incapable of stopping certain chips and bunker shots, tiger included fyi. You know not what you speak of. if augusta ever added a us open style rough yikes almost impossible to hold those greens. Read the OPs scenario again before chiming in. shooting 80 at a US open course not in us open conditions from members tees has severally clouded your judgment

 

i am guessing you've psyched yourself out for Augusta. I predict a 110 score for you when you tee up without an attitude adjustment...hey..you can say you played the most difficult course on the planet..which won't be true or the scoring record wouldn't be -18.

[Man_O_War]

Lucky enough to have played it in 2007.

I was plus 1 (U.K. Hcp) the time and played with 2 scratch players and a member.

Yes to a caddie, but I think they double bagged it so of limited help.

Played off the Masters tees which were 7450.

In November so the ball wasn't running but the greens were only about 11.

Hit irons into about 3 of the par 4s the rest was 3 wood or rescue, unbelievably long. 11th just goes on for ever and ever!

I played out of my socks for 79, other two were 81 each.

Stick the greens up to tournament speed and sub 85 on your first round there would be a seriously impressive task for a scratch golfer.

 

 

i am guessing your 79 doesn't count somehow to the purists...they will find some reason to discredit ....maybe you missed the super masters tees

[SurfDuffer]

Yesterday I was lucky enough to play one of the courses on this list of America's 50 most difficult courses. (Augusta didn't even make the list) https://www.golfdigest.com/story/gd50toughestcourses 6900+ yards with lots of water, deep bunkers, island greens and peninsula greens and fairways with water down one side or the other. A punishing test of golf. I admit that it was my second time playing something other than a charity scramble....the first time being a decade ago. I had a terrible day with the driver but my iron play, short game and putting were ok but not great. I played a solid front 9 and then the wheels fell off. Struggled to an 87 (par 72) with 3 lost balls and a total of 4 doubles and 7 bogeys on the card. Only made 7 pars. My current index is 6.5 I could have played much better yesterday. Tell me again how a scratch couldn't break 85 at Augusta........

 

Sorry folks. 85 is not a hard number for a scratch player to shoot on any course. I'm nowhere near scratch and pretty sure I'd have a reasonable shot.

 

Couple of shots to give you a feel for this course.

 

The 7th 182 yard island green par 3 with the island fairway of the 435 yard 6th hole in the background.

 

 

The 6th you have a island fairway and then a long approach into a green protected by water on two sides or if you bomb it left with a high risk tee shot you are left with a 100 yard wedge.

 

 

The 15th

 

 

 

The 2nd. The pin was on the right yesterday and after a poor tee shot that thankfully stayed dry I hit a very risky 6 iron to about 10 feet and made par from there. Probably my best shot of the day other than a sand save on 4 in the deepest bunker on the course with the green way above my head.

 

 

I don't recall there being any tee shots or holes like this at Augusta

 

 

 

 

The very difficult par 3 4th hole. The green is at the top of the picture. I ended up pin high in the right side bunker and made a great par save here. Guessing the green was almost 10 feet above my head standing in the bunker. The green in the foreground is that of one of the easier holes on the course.....the par 5 3rd hole.

 

 

• 72
  PAR
  
• 6922
  YARDS
  
• 73.9
  RATING
  
• 139
  SLOPE
  

[Man_O_War]

Yesterday I was lucky enough to play one of the courses on this list of America's 50 most difficult courses. (Augusta didn't even make the list) https://www.golfdigest.com/story/gd50toughestcourses 6900+ yards with lots of water, deep bunkers, island greens and peninsula greens and fairways with water down one side or the other. A punishing test of golf. I admit that it was my second time playing something other than a charity scramble....the first time being a decade ago. I had a terrible day with the driver but my iron play, short game and putting were ok but not great. Struggled to an 87 (par 72) with 3 lost balls and a total of 4 doubles and 7 bogeys on the card. Only made 7 pars. My current index is 6.5 I could have played much better yesterday. Tell me again how a scratch couldn't break 85 at Augusta........

 

Sorry folks. 85 is not a hard number for a scratch player to shoot on any course. I'm nowhere near scratch and pretty sure I'd have a reasonable shot.

 

Couple of shots to give you a feel for this course.

 

The 7th 182 yard island green par 3 with the island fairway of the 435 yard 6th hole in the background.

 

 

The 6th you have a island fairway and then a long approach into a green protected by water on two sides or if you bomb it left with a high risk tee shot you are left with a 100 yard wedge.

 

 

The 15th

 

 

 

The 2nd. The pin was on the right yesterday and after a poor tee shot that thankfully stayed dry I hit a very risky 6 iron to about 10 feet and made par from there. Probably my best shot of the day other than a sand save on 4 in the deepest bunker on the course with the green way above my head.

 

 

I don't recall there being any tee shots or holes like this at Augusta

 

 

 

 

The very difficult par 3 4th hole. The green is at the top of the picture. I ended up pin high in the right side bunker and made a great par save here. Guessing the green was almost 10 feet above my head standing in the bunker. The green in the foreground is that of one of the easier holes on the course.....the par 5 3rd hole.

 

 

• 72
  PAR
  
• 6922
  YARDS
  
• 73.9
  RATING
  
• 139
  SLOPE
  

 

 

the 6th hole looks like the kind that will cause me to wake up in a cold sweat a month before i play it. What course is this sir?

[SurfDuffer]

Stone Harbor. The 18th would make you lose sleep too.....I just couldn't find pictures of it on the web. Just look at the score card diagram. Its a short hole but its a beast of a finishing hole. Iron off the tee and a 110 wedge in. I hit what I thought was a perfect tee shot here and when I got to my ball I was less than 10 feet from where my ball would have rolled down the slope into the water........got lucky. Made an easy par from there.

 

2 and 7 are the most intimidating holes on the course. 2 has water down the entire right side and the pin was on the right surrounded by water. 7 is a long par 3 to an island green strait into the prevailing sea breeze. The wind was light when we played but I'm sure there are days where factoring wind it would play like it was 200+.

 

Here is a shot of the 18th green I took on my phone.....this course has a heli-pad and two helicopters flew in while we were there.

 

 

 

The story goes that this course was originally built with the intention of being the most difficult course in the country. They did a redesign to make it easier and even after the redesign it remains as one of the most difficult. The picture below is of the original 7th. If you look above in my post you will see the redesigned 7th island green complex. Imagine hitting into this over water.

 

[Short Pete]

It looks kind of cool, but sorry having to say this: This is by far one of the most stupid course designs I've ever seen. Difficult for the sake of being difficult. How is a mid- or high handicapper supposed to have fun on this?

 

Still has nothing to do with the task we talk about here.

[Mcgeeno]

I like lowheel as a poster and we went around on this a month or two ago.

 

He made good points and I get his thinking, but we are talking about 9-10 bogeys, 2-3 doubles and a few pars. I bet a solid travelling scratch will even chop his way into a birdie or two.

 

Not a 79 or a 75 which would not be happening. An 85 though maybe even a couple birdies is totally reasonable.

 

I’m sure there will be a ton of 3 putts no doubt but there is also minimal trouble off the tee. It’s renowned as a relatively easy course off the tee.

[SurfDuffer]

It looks kind of cool, but sorry having to say this: This is by far one of the most stupid course designs I've ever seen. Difficult for the sake of being difficult. How is a mid- or high handicapper supposed to have fun on this?

 

Still has nothing to do with the task we talk about here.

 

Some courses are made for players. A high handicapper would need a shag bag full of balls on this course. It is relevant though because Augusta regardless of the mythology is not going to beat up a visiting golfer as badly as this place will. A scratch golfer is not going to lose 3 balls and have 4 doubles and a bunch of bogeys at Augusta. 85 is not a hard number for a legit scratch on any course.

[Doc420]

Easily especially when playing blades.

[Guia]

I agree. A scratch golfer that handicap has been established at a difficult course should/would break 85 at any course. Scratch golfers a solid ball strikers and put well, adjustments to greens should be quick.

 

I believe that it is oakmont or the olympic club that the lowest handicaps are a 1 HC. At normal course they would probably be a + 1 or 2. They would not choke at Augusta and easily shoot under 85.

 

Whether you play blades or Cavity, makes no difference to your scores. Many on the Tour play cavity backs.

[widow-maker]

If you took 100 scratch amateurs from the tougher private clubs around the country and had them play Augusta the day after the Tournament ended, some of them would break 85, which makes the answer to the question... yes. It wouldn't be easy because of the OP's parameters of no caddy, no cart, but there's no doubt that some would break 85. You'd probably have some break 80 and a couple might break 75. To say nobody could do it is ridiculous.

[golf1010]

Yes yes and yes

Scratch players are good for a reason.

Easily break 85

[golfer929]

Stone Harbor. The 18th would make you lose sleep too.....I just couldn't find pictures of it on the web. Just look at the score card diagram. Its a short hole but its a beast of a finishing hole. Iron off the tee and a 110 wedge in. I hit what I thought was a perfect tee shot here and when I got to my ball I was less than 10 feet from where my ball would have rolled down the slope into the water........got lucky. Made an easy par from there.

 

2 and 7 are the most intimidating holes on the course. 2 has water down the entire right side and the pin was on the right surrounded by water. 7 is a long par 3 to an island green strait into the prevailing sea breeze. The wind was light when we played but I'm sure there are days where factoring wind it would play like it was 200+.

 

Here is a shot of the 18th green I took on my phone.....this course has a heli-pad and two helicopters flew in while we were there.

 

 

 

The story goes that this course was originally built with the intention of being the most difficult course in the country. They did a redesign to make it easier and even after the redesign it remains as one of the most difficult. The picture below is of the original 7th. If you look above in my post you will see the redesigned 7th island green complex. Imagine hitting into this over water.

 

So which is it? An easy par or a beast of a hole?

 

Stone Harbor. The 18th would make you lose sleep too.....I just couldn't find pictures of it on the web. Just look at the score card diagram. Its a short hole but its a beast of a finishing hole. Iron off the tee and a 110 wedge in. I hit what I thought was a perfect tee shot here and when I got to my ball I was less than 10 feet from where my ball would have rolled down the slope into the water........got lucky. Made an easy par from there.

 

2 and 7 are the most intimidating holes on the course. 2 has water down the entire right side and the pin was on the right surrounded by water. 7 is a long par 3 to an island green strait into the prevailing sea breeze. The wind was light when we played but I'm sure there are days where factoring wind it would play like it was 200+.

 

Here is a shot of the 18th green I took on my phone.....this course has a heli-pad and two helicopters flew in while we were there.

 

 

 

The story goes that this course was originally built with the intention of being the most difficult course in the country. They did a redesign to make it easier and even after the redesign it remains as one of the most difficult. The picture below is of the original 7th. If you look above in my post you will see the redesigned 7th island green complex. Imagine hitting into this over water.

 

So which is it? An easy par or a beast of a hole?

[jmvargas]

If you took 100 scratch amateurs from the tougher private clubs around the country and had them play Augusta the day after the Tournament ended, some of them would break 85, which makes the answer to the question... yes. It wouldn't be easy because of the OP's parameters of no caddy, no cart, but there's no doubt that some would break 85. You'd probably have some break 80 and a couple might break 75. To say nobody could do it is ridiculous.

 

this is the most reasonable and plausible reply so far..

[SurfDuffer]

 

So which is it? An easy par or a beast of a hole?

 

A beast of a finishing hole for sure. How many finishing holes do you play where there is peninsula fairway surrounded by water then you hit to a narrow tongue shaped green surrounded by water. I made an easy par because I got a little lucky that my tee shot was down the middle and luckily didn't go in the drink when I ran out of fairway leaving me a 110 yard wedge that I hit right over top of the flag stick. There is little margin for error on this tee shot or approach.

[SurfDuffer]

I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to yours. Just don't be a jerk about it. That's life. Honestly think a lot of this is based on mythology of the course. I don't see a scratch losing a bunch of balls and making big numbers there.

[BMC]

At 7,445 yards a long hitting scratch should have no trouble. A short hitter, hitting long clubs into the fast greens would be challenged.

[Man_O_War]

Yesterday I was lucky enough to play one of the courses on this list of America's 50 most difficult courses. (Augusta didn't even make the list) https://www.golfdigest.com/story/gd50toughestcourses 6900+ yards with lots of water, deep bunkers, island greens and peninsula greens and fairways with water down one side or the other. A punishing test of golf. I admit that it was my second time playing something other than a charity scramble....the first time being a decade ago. I had a terrible day with the driver but my iron play, short game and putting were ok but not great. I played a solid front 9 and then the wheels fell off. Struggled to an 87 (par 72) with 3 lost balls and a total of 4 doubles and 7 bogeys on the card. Only made 7 pars. My current index is 6.5 I could have played much better yesterday. Tell me again how a scratch couldn't break 85 at Augusta........

 

Sorry folks. 85 is not a hard number for a scratch player to shoot on any course. I'm nowhere near scratch and pretty sure I'd have a reasonable shot.

 

Couple of shots to give you a feel for this course.

 

The 7th 182 yard island green par 3 with the island fairway of the 435 yard 6th hole in the background.

 

 

 

The 6th you have a island fairway and then a long approach into a green protected by water on two sides or if you bomb it left with a high risk tee shot you are left with a 100 yard wedge.

 

 

 

The 15th

 

 

 

 

 

The 2nd. The pin was on the right yesterday and after a poor tee shot that thankfully stayed dry I hit a very risky 6 iron to about 10 feet and made par from there. Probably my best shot of the day other than a sand save on 4 in the deepest bunker on the course with the green way above my head.

 

 

 

I don't recall there being any tee shots or holes like this at Augusta

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The very difficult par 3 4th hole. The green is at the top of the picture. I ended up pin high in the right side bunker and made a great par save here. Guessing the green was almost 10 feet above my head standing in the bunker. The green in the foreground is that of one of the easier holes on the course.....the par 5 3rd hole.

 

 

 

• 72
  PAR
  
• 6922
  YARDS
  
• 73.9
  RATING
  
• 139
  SLOPE
  

 

 

How high were you when you typed the bolded part?

laughable post by you thanks for cheering me up on this sunday night. the delusion it takes for someone to write this... Did you even read the OPs exact scenario?

 

 

 

totally uncalled for.

[SurfDuffer]

The only way I see a scratch not shooting better than 85 more often than not is if you stipulated that they couldn't use a laser or GPS......but that was not part of the original post.

[Mcgeeno]

Drop 100 scratch golfers from around the states there and definitely some get this done and break 85.

 

That answers the question right there. Can it be done?

 

Yes. Make it 1000 scratch golfers, some will be posers some will be ex +3 cappers who have no trouble. Some will be bombers who can putt and they will have no trouble.

 

Of course it can be done. It’s 85 not 72 or 77.

 

 

[Bye]

This years average stats from the Masters field over the 4 rounds.

 

The best players in the world, with a caddy and several practice rounds before the tournament.

 

66% fairways hit

274 yards driving average

58% greens in regulation

2 birdies per round

1 three putt per round

 

Remember these are the average stats, if they had one, the average handicap would be plus 4-5.

 

A scratch player is going to have a weakness in their game which will be horribly exposed there.

 

85 sounds easy, but playing it blind, with no help, 13+ on the stimp, dream on.

 

 

 

[lowheel]

I'm entitled to my opinion and you're entitled to yours. Just don't be a jerk about it. That's life. Honestly think a lot of this is based on mythology of the course. I don't see a scratch losing a bunch of balls and making big numbers there.

 

Your post was arrogant and lacking in any semblance of reality, sorry but its the harsh truth.You're welcome to your opinion however dont be shocked when you get called out for the pure fallacies you posted. You're a "nowhere near scratch player" and stated based on the OPs detailed scenario even you would/could break 85 more often than not. Your lack of knowledge of the real #s at augusta shows me you have no clue how tough it is.Youve never been there in person to see elite future hall of fame players 3 putt from 8 feet consistently because theyre on the wrong side of the hole.Tiger still has nightmares about hole #1 . Its not course mythology, its reality. TV doesnt do it justice. But hey you played a 6900 yard course thats in the top 50 so augusta would be no problem right? See how your thesis is warped? Its cool though, i get your 19th hole bar talk vibe in your post. I added some levity to the proceedings nothing personal...

[North Texas]

This years average stats from the Masters field over the 4 rounds.

 

The best players in the world, with a caddy and several practice rounds before the tournament.

 

66% fairways hit

274 yards driving average

58% greens in regulation

2 birdies per round

1 three putt per round

 

Remember these are the average stats, if they had one, the average handicap would be plus 4-5.

 

A scratch player is going to have a weakness in their game which will be horribly exposed there.

 

85 sounds easy, but playing it blind, with no help, 13+ on the stimp, dream on.

 

It would be interesting to see what the average score was over 4 rounds.

[North Texas]

I would expect the odds to be low to extremely low, but I do think it's possible that a scratch golfer could break 85 at Augusta under the conditions the OP put forth.

[bmurph]

This years average stats from the Masters field over the 4 rounds.

 

The best players in the world, with a caddy and several practice rounds before the tournament.

 

66% fairways hit

274 yards driving average

58% greens in regulation

2 birdies per round

1 three putt per round

 

Remember these are the average stats, if they had one, the average handicap would be plus 4-5.

 

A scratch player is going to have a weakness in their game which will be horribly exposed there.

 

85 sounds easy, but playing it blind, with no help, 13+ on the stimp, dream on.

 

I don't think its as easy as some here would make it sound but this post makes it sound harder than it is. Guys playing the masters are taking some chances to hit GIR and make birdies where a scratch guy trying break 85 wouldn't have to make those tough decisions as he only needs pars and bogies.

[Bye]

This years average stats from the Masters field over the 4 rounds.

 

The best players in the world, with a caddy and several practice rounds before the tournament.

 

66% fairways hit

274 yards driving average

58% greens in regulation

2 birdies per round

1 three putt per round

 

Remember these are the average stats, if they had one, the average handicap would be plus 4-5.

 

A scratch player is going to have a weakness in their game which will be horribly exposed there.

 

85 sounds easy, but playing it blind, with no help, 13+ on the stimp, dream on.

 

It would be interesting to see what the average score was over 4 rounds.

 

73.89 over the 4 rounds

[deadsolid...shank]

This years average stats from the Masters field over the 4 rounds.

 

The best players in the world, with a caddy and several practice rounds before the tournament.

 

66% fairways hit

274 yards driving average

58% greens in regulation

2 birdies per round

1 three putt per round

 

Remember these are the average stats, if they had one, the average handicap would be plus 4-5.

 

A scratch player is going to have a weakness in their game which will be horribly exposed there.

 

85 sounds easy, but playing it blind, with no help, 13+ on the stimp, dream on.

 

It would be interesting to see what the average score was over 4 rounds.

 

73.89 over the 4 rounds

 

So, average pro playing here is approximately a +6 or so? Averaging 74 for the round. So the scratch (who theoretically is 6-8 shots worse than the +6) is going to have to play within 10 shots of of the average? By my reasoning (which could very well be way off base) the scratch should have a reasonable chance.

[Argonne69]

At the 2013 Masters, 14 year old Guan Tianlang, the 490th ranked amateur player in the world, shot 73-75-77-75 to finish in 58th place. At the time he was averaging 250 yards off the tee. I don't have his exact index from that year, but as the 490th ranked amateur in the world he was likely in the low single digits.

 

Yes, he did have a caddie, and he did play two practice rounds. However, with four rounds in the 70's, I have no doubt he would have been able to pull of one round below 85 without them.

[Bye]

This years average stats from the Masters field over the 4 rounds.

 

The best players in the world, with a caddy and several practice rounds before the tournament.

 

66% fairways hit

274 yards driving average

58% greens in regulation

2 birdies per round

1 three putt per round

 

Remember these are the average stats, if they had one, the average handicap would be plus 4-5.

 

A scratch player is going to have a weakness in their game which will be horribly exposed there.

 

85 sounds easy, but playing it blind, with no help, 13+ on the stimp, dream on.

 

It would be interesting to see what the average score was over 4 rounds.

 

73.89 over the 4 rounds

 

So, average pro playing here is approximately a +6 or so? Averaging 74 for the round. So the scratch (who theoretically is 6-8 shots worse than the +6) is going to have to play within 10 shots of of the average? By my reasoning (which could very well be way off base) the scratch should have a reasonable chance.

 

It was nearly 75 for the first 2 rounds. Remember they will have played the course before and have a caddy, our scratch player is not allowed either.

 

i just don't think it's doable. As I said a scratch golfer is going to have a weakness in their game which will get magnified in these extreme conditions. The difference between a scratch golfer and someone off +6 huge.