Backstopping needs to be stopped

[Outlier]

From my understanding, the player has a right to mark his ball before the player next up hits. This would invalidate JTs response and makes him look like an uninformed moron. It does appear there is either some sort of collusion/unwritten rule thing going on, or players are too buddy-buddy to enforce their right to mark (which would result in a DQ of the offending party and some hurt feelings).

 

Seriously? the P.O.Y. an "uniformed moron"?

[North Butte]

Same as asking for a drop into an area where you'll get another drop that entitles you to a third drop on a downslope where it will roll closer to the hole twice so you can place it in a perfect lie in a perfect position 50 yards from where your ball originally was.

 

This drop scenario will be the same for everyone in the field though and thats at the core of this issue with the unmarked ball in close proximity to the hole there is potential advantage for some and not others.

 

Its a controllable variable so if players start to mark their ball again which has been customary for as long as they started using markers then parity returns.

 

Except it isn't like the Tour players are only doing it for certain players. As far as I can see it is the absolute norm to leave balls there most of the time.When everybody does it, it's totally random and favors no one in particular.

 

This is one of the very, very few situations where the Rules actually acknowledge the reality of golf as it is actually played. I find it totally non-surprising that such a reasonable way of dealing with a common situation raises the ire of those who think playing golf ought to require passing the equivalent of the bar exam.

[soap1984]

Anyone who has a problem with this is trying way too hard to be angry in life...it's a non issue. From what distance must you wait until your opponent marks his ball? If I am greenside and he's 40 yards and takes a long time, I'm ready to hit right after he is...do I wait another 3 minutes just to make sure some clown watching on TV doesn't get upset?

 

Once you dig into "intent" etc. It makes the whole idea behind it fall apart. If "everyone" is doing it then, well, it isn't a problem is it? No one has a vested interest in helping anyone, in fact they want the opposite if they are trailing the other player. If it's a big conspiracy/understanding amongst the players to leave their ball unmarked when behind the hole, then as another poster stated, it's relatively random and gives no advantage to anyone in particular.

[Jordan Speeth]

Last weekend, one of my playing partners was in the bunker raking up his mess. His shot out of the sand came to rest 4 feet from the hole.

 

Rather than wait another several minutes, I had the opportunity to chip from the green collar up to the hole while he was raking.

 

His ball was between my ball and the hole, with about 25 feet from me to the hole.

 

I chipped up and hit his ball.

 

My ball shot straight left (hole is on the right) and came to rest about 10 feet from the hole. His ball barely moved.

 

If my ball doesn't hit his, it comes close to going in, or its a tap-in. Instead, I had a 10 footer for Par (which I missed).

 

Or, I could have waited for him to finish up what he was doing in the bunker, cleaning up clubs, cleaning up shoes, then marking the ball. All while I was standing there ready to play.

 

My point = Finau's ball could have gone anywhere with that bounce, and by the looks of things he wanted to get the ball closer, but had too much juice on it coming out of the bunker. He got lucky with the bounce.

 

The announcers said Kokrack was wild left off the tee, and eventually chipped up to where his ball came to rest, but then had quite a walk to get to, and mark his ball.

 

Meanwhile, Finau was just hanging out in the bunker watching all this unfold.

 

To me, it's a non-issue because of the uncertainty of Finau's ball and potential bounce out of the bunker.

 

Nothing in the rules prevents a player from marking someone else's ball if it's in their way. You just also have to be the one to replace it. Then, the player can remark and replace his ball again.

[North Butte]

Anyone who has a problem with this is trying way too hard to be angry in life...it's a non issue. From what distance must you wait until your opponent marks his ball? If I am greenside and he's 40 yards and takes a long time, I'm ready to hit right after he is...do I wait another 3 minutes just to make sure some clown watching on TV doesn't get upset?

 

Once you dig into "intent" etc. It makes the whole idea behind it fall apart. If "everyone" is doing it then, well, it isn't a problem is it? No one has a vested interest in helping anyone, in fact they want the opposite if they are trailing the other player. If it's a big conspiracy/understanding amongst the players to leave their ball unmarked when behind the hole, then as another poster stated, it's relatively random and gives no advantage to anyone in particular.

 

That's the key thing in this whole discussion. If you ask "who benefits" when a player just stands there instead of briskly striding 40 yards up onto the green to remove a ball that has a tiny fraction of a percent chance of influencing an opponent's next shot, the answer is "sure as heck it isn't the guy deciding not to mark his ball".

 

To assert that players are cheating and getting away with cheating is nonsensical given that if they were cheating, it would be themselves getting cheated. They can't possibly be that stupid.

 

P.S. And keep in mind that in today's game, if a player does walk 20, 40, 60 yards or whatever up onto the green to mark his ball THE OTHER PLAYER WILL STAND THERE LIKE A BUMP ON A LOG THE ENTIRE TIME BEFORE EVEN BEGINNING HIS "ROUTINE".

[youraway2]

I've played in a money game with 2 other players in my group. I had one of them that tried to chip on while the other player's ball was about 18" from the hole. I knew what he was doing and he knew what he was doing. I made him stop and had the other player mark his ball. He argued and whined but I wasn't having any of it!

Perfect!

[FairwaysToHeaven]

If you are that good to be able to hit a ball as a backstop, you are good enough to hole your shot. Think about it ... is anyone that good to be able to aim and hit a golf ball on the green? In the old days, you could leave your ball on the green and you would have to chip over your opponents ball to make a putt. Loosen up Francis!

 

 

lol *face palm

 

some people just don't get it

 

imagine you are playing darts against someone with the first person to 500 points wins. Bulls eye worth 50 points. would you be ok playing on a dart board where there is only the bulls eye while your opponent plays on a board where there are lesser points given if they happen to miss the bulls eye.

 

whether you believe this is a non issue, unenforceable, or just a stupid debate, i am dumbfounded by those who continually bring up the above point.

[Man_O_War]

no one is that good...the chance of that happening deliberately is 1 in 100,000. if they are that good..they would be holing 7 out of 10 bunker shots

[FairwaysToHeaven]

if you are chipping to a downhill pin from just off the green would 40 balls behind the pin be an advantage in case you missed the cup? if yes, then 20 balls would be an advantage just at a lesser degree. this would carry forward and 3 balls would be an advantage as would 1.

 

i'll agree that actually enforcing this is nearly impossible and falls under the integrity part of the game. But questioning whether or not a ball behind the cup gives someone an advantage, no matter how little, to me isn't even debatable.

[North Butte]

But "no matter how little" is the entire point. If you want any possible random advantage to be eliminated you'd have to cut and roll the greens after each golfer plays his shot. Why should the guy in Group 14 have to putt on greens that 42 players have already trampled? But we don't do that. The theoretical advantage that early groups have isn't remotely worth the effort of ironing the green after each group.

 

Same with the marking the ball thing. In theory, even on a 260 yard second shot on a Par 5 having a couple balls already on the the JUST MIGHT help the third guy in that three-ball keep a shot on the green that otherwise would have ran through into trouble. Do we think it's worth having someone mark the first two balls in that situation? No, of course not. The minuscule possible advantage can't possibly outweigh the impracticality.

 

So here's what this whole bloody-minded tempest in a teacup comes down to. Typical PGA Tour players are willing to allow that theoretical, possible, conceivable, unlikely advantage to exist almost any time they are not all putting. Their threshold for reasonable effort to avoid infinitesimally small possibilities basically defaults to "I'll allow it". Some bunch of couch golfers watching on TV have a threshold that's lower to the point of silliness. If it bothers you that much, don't watch.

 

P.S. Do you know the joke with the punchline, "We've established what you are, now we're just haggling over price"?

[Shilgy]

Last weekend, one of my playing partners was in the bunker raking up his mess. His shot out of the sand came to rest 4 feet from the hole.

 

Rather than wait another several minutes, I had the opportunity to chip from the green collar up to the hole while he was raking.

 

His ball was between my ball and the hole, with about 25 feet from me to the hole.

 

I chipped up and hit his ball.

 

My ball shot straight left (hole is on the right) and came to rest about 10 feet from the hole. His ball barely moved.

 

If my ball doesn't hit his, it comes close to going in, or its a tap-in. Instead, I had a 10 footer for Par (which I missed).

 

Or, I could have waited for him to finish up what he was doing in the bunker, cleaning up clubs, cleaning up shoes, then marking the ball. All while I was standing there ready to play.

 

My point = Finau's ball could have gone anywhere with that bounce, and by the looks of things he wanted to get the ball closer, but had too much juice on it coming out of the bunker. He got lucky with the bounce.

 

The announcers said Kokrack was wild left off the tee, and eventually chipped up to where his ball came to rest, but then had quite a walk to get to, and mark his ball.

 

Meanwhile, Finau was just hanging out in the bunker watching all this unfold.

 

To me, it's a non-issue because of the uncertainty of Finau's ball and potential bounce out of the bunker.

 

Nothing in the rules prevents a player from marking someone else's ball if it's in their way. You just also have to be the one to replace it. Then, the player can remark and replace his ball again.

I don't think that is the rule any longer. Wasn't that changed? I was just looking in the rules and do not see reference to that.

[drn92]

Zero issue with JTs comments. There is no rule in the book that says what he did was illegal. This is the first time I have ever heard of "backstopping".

 

Say one person is 10 yards short of the green and waiting close to his ball but not in the way of his competition who is getting ready to hit his shot 200 yards away. Should he have to wait the 3-4 minutes for this player to mark his ball assuming it is not in direct line of the hole? Golf is already slow enough.

 

No he shouldn't wait, its an option to mark the ball and replace it.

 

This used to happen, a long hitter is waiting to go for a par 5 in two, the short hitter proceeds to his layup. The long hitter hits it reasonably close then the short hitter wants to play his pitch but the ball is in his line. Short hitter can mark the ball, play his shot and replace it while the long hitter catches up.

 

All I know is I do not want anyone else marking my balls. I like to handle that myself ... :)

 

drn92

[ex0dus]

I can't believe more people don't think this is an issue. Clearly there is an unspoken agreement among players to collude on this, a loophole that allows them to circumvent a rule in place to prevent this from happening. Clearly Finau is not aiming for the ball, but its presence gives him an advantage over someone in a similar position on the course whose playing partner is not near the hole. I don't see how anyone can't see this as an advantage. There should be a level playing field for all, among things that can be controlled. And this is something that can be controlled.

 

 

If all the players are doing it, then how does one player have an advantage?

[Matt J]

I'm pretty sure it's a penalty for anyone but the player him or herself to mark a ball on the putting green.

 

Golf is hard. I can guarantee that coming down the stretch if there are two green side chips, player A hits it tight below the cup, he's going to mark.

 

It's pretty rare that it works out. I agree with North Butte, rub of the green. Until you play golf inside, just consider it good luck. He still didn't win, so karma prevailed.

 

 

[Shilgy]

I'm pretty sure it's a penalty for anyone but the player him or herself to mark a ball on the putting green.

 

Golf is hard. I can guarantee that coming down the stretch if there are two green side chips, player A hits it tight below the cup, he's going to mark.

 

It's pretty rare that it works out. I agree with North Butte, rub of the green. Until you play golf inside, just consider it good luck. He still didn't win, so karma prevailed.

A player can mark another players ball position. Rule 20-1 and replacing 20-3.

[OldTomMorris]

I'm pretty sure it's a penalty for anyone but the player him or herself to mark a ball on the putting green.

 

Unless the rule has changed (I have played much competitive golf recently) and I'm unaware of it, in strokeplay you could always mark the ball and replace it, the only difference being you weren't permitted to clean it. Its happens often on short par 4s that players get waved up, the guys on the green need to put out so sometimes they have to mark a ball.

[cvvorst]

If you are skilled enough to deliberately hit another player's ball from a bunker, why not just hole out? The hole is a bigger target. Also why would players collude on this? If your ball gets knocked you could end up with a much worse putt or even get bumped off the green.

Wow, guess you never read the Rules. First of all if the ball at rest is moved it must be replaced, not knocked away and have a worse putt. Second, the player was of course trying to hole the shot, and as an added benefit he was using another players ball to "assist" him of he missed the hole. Third the player, Kokrat, who intentionally left his ball in a position to assist, did a disservice to himself and the entire field, and if left the ball in place intentionally to "assist" the he should be disqualified. If in any way the two players agreed, even if not verbally, to leave a ball in place to assist, then they are both disqualified.

 

The only reason this ball should have been left, unmarked, was if the player wasn't in a nearby position to mark and not interfere with the play of the ball from the other player. I believe Kokrat was nearby, even standing on the fringe of the green.

 

I believe it was intentional and just anther example of bending or manipulating the Rules on the PGA Tour.

 

You believe it was intentional. That's an opinion that could only be proven if you heard Kokrak say it or could read his mind. Finau was in the bunker and said after the round that he didn't even know that the ball was there.

You're absolutely correct, but I believe it was intentional, but I do not know, so you're correct. As for Finau saying he didn't know the ball even there, give me a break!

 

If that ball had been between him and the hole, you can bet he would have seen it and had it marked.

 

 

 

It's one thing to want an obstacle between you and the target removed, (a much more likely obstacle) and another to take note of anything behind that may or may not be in play.

 

These pros seem to be pretty confident in their game, I'd guess Finau expected to land it short and roll it up close/in. In that case, his intent was fine, no penalty.

[cvvorst]

What proof do you have that this is a recent trend?

 

As I said I've seen it my own eyes, been watching golf since the early/mid 80s (in person and on TV) and while there is infinitely more coverage nowadays as I noted in various posts my recall is in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario, that appears to have changed.

 

https://twitter.com/...665174834061312

 

https://twitter.com/...972755239038976

 

https://twitter.com/...009814291165185

 

https://twitter.com/...783148382281728

 

Another member posted these from Twitter as some recent examples.

 

Are you really trying to say that you can recall from 30 years ago watching players always run up and mark their balls? Certainly you can understand why I might have a hard time believing that.

 

Its not just me, golf writers are writing about it. I've never said players run up and mark their balls. I've noted this several times, in the past every effort was made to avoid this kind of scenario but I don't see that now. Its noticeable for that reason, not claiming I recall every shot I've watched in my life.

 

 

It's the end of the golf season, and there's not much going on. It seems like they found something to get fans riled up over, and ran with it. Just wait for the next big event, rules infraction, or interesting personal story to come along...

[BarronDDS]

How is this worse than hitting a grandstand on purpose?

[QuigleyDU]

Hours and hours spent on here and this is the first time I have ever heard of "backstopping". Am I the only one?

 

My first thought was this was about grandstands being place next to and behind the greens and stopping balls that are hit too long. I was going to agree with that.

[golfgirlrobin]

How is this worse than hitting a grandstand on purpose?

 

It probably isn't, but grandstands are a necessary evil in a professional event with no easy fix, while the marking issue can be solved by someone saying, "Hey, mark your ball."

[Shilgy]

I'm pretty sure it's a penalty for anyone but the player him or herself to mark a ball on the putting green.

 

Unless the rule has changed (I have played much competitive golf recently) and I'm unaware of it, in strokeplay you could always mark the ball and replace it, the only difference being you weren't permitted to clean it. Its happens often on short par 4s that players get waved up, the guys on the green need to put out so sometimes they have to mark a ball.

Not permitted to clean it would only apply to a ball off the green. I suppose a player could say he did not want it cleaned if someone else did so but I have never ever heard or read a rule saying you cannot clean the ball you marked. Yours or anyones. What rule are you citing?

[OldTomMorris]

Not permitted to clean it would only apply to a ball off the green. I suppose a player could say he did not want it cleaned if someone else did so but I have never ever heard or read a rule saying you cannot clean the ball you marked. Yours or anyones. What rule are you citing?

 

You are correct.

[smeech8000]

Full disclosure, I've only read pages 1, 2, and 9 thus far.

 

Here is a link to a video of the shot: https://www.pgatour.com/video/2017/10/08/tony-finau-s-wizardry-from-the-bunker-at-safeway.html

 

It appears that Finau's view of the hole, and Kokrak's ball, are clearly obstructed by the lip of the bunker. Whether he was actually paying attention to Jason play up and the position of his ball is unclear, however his response in the interview seems to indicate he was not... is he lying?

 

How do you prove that? Intent is impossible to prove in the absence of an explicit confession from a player, which will never happen. For the record, JT's input on the matter does not constitute an admission of guilt - the onus is on the "non-marker" to mark without request from the FC, unless everyone here believes the honorable, gentlemanly thing to do is request the ball be marked. It obviously provides an advantage, but don't other factors present inequitable advantages? Bunker rake placement? Wind/weather shifting mid-day granting an advantage to half the field?

 

Do the same people crying foul believe it is acceptable for a player to wait 30s for a headwind to die before hitting a shot? The rest of the field may have had to play without the option of the headwind dying down as it was steadier at the time... how can waiting be considered equitable to the rest of the field?

 

Also, as others have mentioned, if a mandate is put in place at what yardage does it become enforceable?

 

There may very well be an omerta on tour where players' default action is to leave their ball unmarked when positioned behind the hole relative to an FC's shot, but attempting to prove this suspicion is a fool's errand, and attempting to police it without first obtaining proof an equally irrational endeavor.

[rangersgoalie]

How is this worse than hitting a grandstand on purpose?

 

Grandstands are there for every player

[Shilgy]

How is this worse than hitting a grandstand on purpose?

 

Grandstands are there for every player

Well then clearly the only equitable solution is that every green have an attendant standing by so that every chip and pitch have a ball as a backstop in the location of choice. :)

 

Obviously I kid. Your earlier post was the correct solution I would think. Just a quick memo to knock it off. No it is not illegal but when it becomes too commonplace then it becomes an agreed upon move which is counter to the rules.

[Dpavs]

If the holes and flag sticks were twice the size this sort of thing wouldn't happen... and that is my final word on it...lol!

[DavePelz4]

Let's go back to stymie's in match play. It forced a lot more creativity.

 

[Pepperturbo]

There is NO rule, that I am aware of, that says I must tell an opponent to mark his ball, before I hit mine. And NO rule that says an opponent has the right to hold up play, to run up and mark his ball, before the next person hits. If that were not true, we'd see guys running up after hitting Wedges shots into greens to mark their ball.

 

Backstopping sounds like something made up by the same people setting around a big screen waiting for a chance to call the network about a possible infraction, or anal losers.. Honestly, having played in a lot of tournaments over the years, this is the 1st time I have heard it had a name, and I am a decent bunker player. Kinda silly... I agree with Justin Thomas... too infrequent to be bothered.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that writer has other issues.

[jpt1101]

But "no matter how little" is the entire point. If you want any possible random advantage to be eliminated you'd have to cut and roll the greens after each golfer plays his shot. Why should the guy in Group 14 have to putt on greens that 42 players have already trampled? But we don't do that. The theoretical advantage that early groups have isn't remotely worth the effort of ironing the green after each group.

 

Same with the marking the ball thing. In theory, even on a 260 yard second shot on a Par 5 having a couple balls already on the the JUST MIGHT help the third guy in that three-ball keep a shot on the green that otherwise would have ran through into trouble. Do we think it's worth having someone mark the first two balls in that situation? No, of course not. The minuscule possible advantage can't possibly outweigh the impracticality.

 

So here's what this whole bloody-minded tempest in a teacup comes down to. Typical PGA Tour players are willing to allow that theoretical, possible, conceivable, unlikely advantage to exist almost any time they are not all putting. Their threshold for reasonable effort to avoid infinitesimally small possibilities basically defaults to "I'll allow it". Some bunch of couch golfers watching on TV have a threshold that's lower to the point of silliness. If it bothers you that much, don't watch.

 

P.S. Do you know the joke with the punchline, "We've established what you are, now we're just haggling over price"?

 

Common sense needs to prevail, as well as practicality. The examples you cite aren't practical. Having someone mark their ball to eliminate an advantage for someone is practical and easy to do. This isn't really that hard.