If the economy......

[Shipwreck]

This isn’t a political thread so don’t start with that BS.

 

The economy is back on the rise. You can’t deny it. Hopefully it keeps going that way. If it does, what do you think that will mean for the Golf industry? I know a lot of PGAs left the biz because of the crash that happened so should this newly revived economy be good for those that stuck around and those that want to get into it in a few years?

[Ferguson]

Re: what do you think that will mean for the Golf industry?

New investment will not pour into golf.

 

Re: so should this newly revived economy be good for those that stuck around?

Assuming these people chose golf as their life's work and passion, the economy is merely a bump in the road.

 

Re: those that want to get into it in a few years?

There will always be people that want to pursue a career in the golf industry.

[BrianMcG]

The vast majority of former club pros left the biz because it sucks. Not because of the economy.

 

If you want in, find a good course and apply. Don’t wait around thinking there is a “right time” to get in.

[Man_O_War]

the economy has been rising since 2010. After a disastrous previous 4 years. the trending is proof of what happened from 2010. I would assume if was going to have a deep effect on golf, it would have been witnessed from 2012 onwards...my guess is it's more of a mood mental thing...if you are able to feel good about the economy because you like where it's going, then off you go spending...if not, you hold on till you are sure. Age has a part too. Mid 40s-50s guys with good income are now thinking...retirement...and the young aren't firing on all cylinders in this economy..so keep watching

[Llortamaisey]

I for one do not believe that the golf industry is tied to the overall economy. Just because the economy is doing well doesn’t mean the golf industry will. Although I do believe the golf industry is picking up at the current moment due to contraction, less is more.

 

The reverse is true as well. There were some tough economic times in the 1990’s and golf pretty much thrived through the entire decade.

 

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

[azkaevolution]

While the golf industry is highly dependent on household disposable income, it is even more dependent on replenishing it's aging customer base with younger players. I just don't see that happening at the rate needed to replenish those who are dying off. Millennials and youngsters aren't exactly flocking to the game...in fact participation in ALL sports is down at the youth level. Fact of the matter is, the younger generations are finding their entertainment thru digital arenas and other avenues.

[DavePelz4]

KSigs will still be $29.99 per double dozen.

[disco111]

Maybe the economy is on the rise in certain parts of the country, but in my neck of the woods, not really. The state is in total fiscal meltdown with waste and fraud allegations and the politicians can't see past their own noses to get a balanced budget. As for the golf industry, way to many courses have closed or are on the chopping block. The city courses are doing OK, only because of the fallout from the other courses that have closed. Now on an individual level, the price to jump into the new and longer clubs lottery is beyond most incomes and the younger crowd is not that enamoured with the game. As with most things in the economic world, supply and demand will eventually even out, but those that are left wanting to play, will find it more expensive and time consuming.

[BrianMcG]

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now that’s funny. Post of the year.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

While the golf industry is highly dependent on household disposable income, it is even more dependent on replenishing it's aging customer base with younger players. I just don't see that happening at the rate needed to replenish those who are dying off. Millennials and youngsters aren't exactly flocking to the game...in fact participation in ALL sports is down at the youth level. Fact of the matter is, the younger generations are finding their entertainment thru digital arenas and other avenues.

i'm optimistic the rumblings that kids spending an average of 5 hours a day fingering their phones is causing very nasty psychological effects will lead to a future reassessment of just how much responsible parents should expose their kids to those damn things.

[MtlJeff]

Golf is a dying business, short term trends are one thing but the big picture I think is undeniable. It's costly to maintain land, water is a resource we don't have in abundance, and there are less expensive and more efficient alternatives to stay fit for both adults and kids.

 

I think golf becomes a fringe sport for the wealthy before it becomes a booming pass time

 

I love the game and even I've thought of quitting recently

[Ferguson]

While the golf industry is highly dependent on household disposable income, it is even more dependent on replenishing it's aging customer base with younger players. I just don't see that happening at the rate needed to replenish those who are dying off. Millennials and youngsters aren't exactly flocking to the game...in fact participation in ALL sports is down at the youth level. Fact of the matter is, the younger generations are finding their entertainment thru digital arenas and other avenues.

 

For this conversation it's discretionary income, not disposable.

 

 

Re: Millennials and youngsters aren't exactly flocking to the game

Agreed.

[DavePelz4]

Golf is a dying business, short term trends are one thing but the big picture I think is undeniable. It's costly to maintain land, water is a resource we don't have in abundance, and there are less expensive and more efficient alternatives to stay fit for both adults and kids.

 

I think golf becomes a fringe sport for the wealthy before it becomes a booming pass time

 

I love the game and even I've thought of quitting recently

 

Interesting perspective and a bit surprising. The local golf programs here are growing nicely with the advent of the "Little League" type team approach. Some of the high school have as many as 170 trying out for a team of 10. Girls golf is also growing here and you're starting to see more and more of the girls golf scholarships used.

 

Not sure we'll ever seen golf as a boom as there are so many alternative to free time now for kids and adults but it'll always have a place for those who like to play.

[iteachgolf]

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now that’s funny. Post of the year.

 

There’s plenty of money to be had in the golf industry. Comes down to how hard you’ll work and how good you are at what you do

[BrianMcG]

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now that’s funny. Post of the year.

 

There’s plenty of money to be had in the golf industry. Comes down to how hard you’ll work and how good you are at what you do

 

Yes, but there is 10 times the amount in the pharmaceutical industry, and I haven’t worked a weekend or holiday in 10 years and I have 4 weeks of vacation not including holidays. And to be honest, I really don’t work that hard.

[Rapatt95]

I for one do not believe that the golf industry is tied to the overall economy. Just because the economy is doing well.

.

Well the golf industry would definitely be tied to the overall economy. Luxury goods like golf clubs are elastic goods. When people either have less money to spend or prices go up, elastic goods’ demand falls.

 

You’re right though that just because the economy is doing well doesn’t mean golf will. A strong economy would definitely appear to be a necessity for a strong golf market, but then like any business or industry, golf has to take advantage of operating in a currently booming economy

[zebra2955]

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now that's funny. Post of the year.

 

There's plenty of money to be had in the golf industry. Comes down to how hard you'll work and how good you are at what you do

 

Yes, but there is 10 times the amount in the pharmaceutical industry, and I haven't worked a weekend or holiday in 10 years and I have 4 weeks of vacation not including holidays. And to be honest, I really don't work that hard.

 

So you sell drugs ?

[MtlJeff]

Golf is a dying business, short term trends are one thing but the big picture I think is undeniable. It's costly to maintain land, water is a resource we don't have in abundance, and there are less expensive and more efficient alternatives to stay fit for both adults and kids.

 

I think golf becomes a fringe sport for the wealthy before it becomes a booming pass time

 

I love the game and even I've thought of quitting recently

 

Interesting perspective and a bit surprising. The local golf programs here are growing nicely with the advent of the "Little League" type team approach. Some of the high school have as many as 170 trying out for a team of 10. Girls golf is also growing here and you're starting to see more and more of the girls golf scholarships used.

 

Not sure we'll ever seen golf as a boom as there are so many alternative to free time now for kids and adults but it'll always have a place for those who like to play.

 

I've been wrong before it's just how I think it will unfold over the next 20-30yrs. I think a lot of people LIKE golf, and certainly playing in school is a fun thing that doesn't require a lot of imposed cost on the individual.

 

A lot of courses around here are 50-70yr olds and 10-18yr olds. There are almost no golfers between 27-45 by comparison. This age group has a lot of debt, young families and I believe less time now due to both parents working and companies expecting longer hours in some environments. I just have a hard time seeing golf fit into this long term, especially with newer ways to exercise coming up all the time.

 

Maybe my market is an outlier, I only know what I see really

 

I also think it's only a matter of time before the ummm, socially conscious part of society starts singling out golf as a poor use of land and resources that caters primarily to the wealthy, and starts asking for more open parks for joggers or soccer fields instead

[andrue]

I think the biggest problem is that most people don't have four to five hours to spend on a golf course. There's an economic cause in that a poor economy encourages people to work longer hours which further eats into potential 'golf time'. But really I think it's a lifestyle thing. Husbands probably feel a bit more guilty about leaving the rest of the family alone for half a day. Also golf doesn't provide the 'quick rush of excitement' that so many youngsters want these days.

 

I still don't think we're seeing the end of golf though. More of an adjustment. Instead of it being a popular sport for everyone it's going to go back to a minority sport. Golf was around before it was popular and it will probably continue for the foreseeable future. But I think there's going to be a cull of facilities and professionals until we reach equilibrium.

[iteachgolf]

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now that’s funny. Post of the year.

 

There’s plenty of money to be had in the golf industry. Comes down to how hard you’ll work and how good you are at what you do

 

Yes, but there is 10 times the amount in the pharmaceutical industry, and I haven’t worked a weekend or holiday in 10 years and I have 4 weeks of vacation not including holidays. And to be honest, I really don’t work that hard.

 

The median and average income in pharmaceutical sales is very similar to the average and median income of a DOG/GM in the golf business. And like the pharmaceutical industry the top 25% do very well

[SixtySomePing]

I think the people who get into the golf industry will continue to be those that hate time and money.

 

LOLOLOLOLOL. Now that's funny. Post of the year.

 

There's plenty of money to be had in the golf industry. Comes down to how hard you'll work and how good you are at what you do

 

Yes, but there is 10 times the amount in the pharmaceutical industry, and I haven't worked a weekend or holiday in 10 years and I have 4 weeks of vacation not including holidays. And to be honest, I really don't work that hard.

 

And I can't retire at 66 because 2 of the prescription pills I take cost 10 times what they should....

[DavePelz4]

Golf is a dying business, short term trends are one thing but the big picture I think is undeniable. It's costly to maintain land, water is a resource we don't have in abundance, and there are less expensive and more efficient alternatives to stay fit for both adults and kids.

 

I think golf becomes a fringe sport for the wealthy before it becomes a booming pass time

 

I love the game and even I've thought of quitting recently

 

Interesting perspective and a bit surprising. The local golf programs here are growing nicely with the advent of the "Little League" type team approach. Some of the high school have as many as 170 trying out for a team of 10. Girls golf is also growing here and you're starting to see more and more of the girls golf scholarships used.

 

Not sure we'll ever seen golf as a boom as there are so many alternative to free time now for kids and adults but it'll always have a place for those who like to play.

 

I've been wrong before it's just how I think it will unfold over the next 20-30yrs. I think a lot of people LIKE golf, and certainly playing in school is a fun thing that doesn't require a lot of imposed cost on the individual.

 

A lot of courses around here are 50-70yr olds and 10-18yr olds. There are almost no golfers between 27-45 by comparison. This age group has a lot of debt, young families and I believe less time now due to both parents working and companies expecting longer hours in some environments. I just have a hard time seeing golf fit into this long term, especially with newer ways to exercise coming up all the time.

 

Maybe my market is an outlier, I only know what I see really

 

I also think it's only a matter of time before the ummm, socially conscious part of society starts singling out golf as a poor use of land and resources that caters primarily to the wealthy, and starts asking for more open parks for joggers or soccer fields instead

 

Certainly not saying you're wrong, just enjoying the exchange. Maybe we're looking at things from different perspectives. In the Chicago area, we have a number of municipally owned courses and frankly, some of them are very nice and top rated in the state. If your perspective is from the private club standpoint, I'm with you...not sure you're going to see much if any growth in that space of the industry. If anything, we've seen some very nice private clubs go public in recent years as they attempt to increase revenues or even stay afloat. Some of the municipal facilities are turning very nice profits with the inclusion of weddings/events, full service restaurants, etc. and they're running golf programs for kids, women, etc.

 

Regarding the age group, we all went through the kids, career growth, etc. stage. I went almost 7 years without playing while raising my sons on my own. There's a fair number of guys in that age range that I'm privileged to play with here and I'd say that they play less rounds than us old guys on an annual basis. As it sounds like will happen with you, they prioritize time with the kids, spousal happiness, etc. and they cherish their rounds even more. As the kids get older, there's more time to golf. The area I live in is one of the nicer parts of Chicago but there is a great mix of people of all demographics that play the courses here.

 

I'm intrigued that you put golf into the category of exercise. The percentage of people in our area that walk is pretty small overall.

[umassgolfer]

While the golf industry is highly dependent on household disposable income, it is even more dependent on replenishing it's aging customer base with younger players. I just don't see that happening at the rate needed to replenish those who are dying off. Millennials and youngsters aren't exactly flocking to the game...in fact participation in ALL sports is down at the youth level. Fact of the matter is, the younger generations are finding their entertainment thru digital arenas and other avenues.

 

For this conversation it's discretionary income, not disposable.

 

 

Re: Millennials and youngsters aren't exactly flocking to the game

Agreed.

 

Respectfully, outside of the TIger era have young golfers really ever "flocked" to the game? Or is it a regression to the pre-tiger model? In my experience as a 31 yr old who grew up and have pretty much always lived in large east-coast city metro-areas:

 

- Young golfers are usually influenced by if their parents play golf. Otherwise, you're relying on the children of non-golfers (like me) who want to maintain friendships with their golfing buddies, so they pick up the game. Then there are a very few others who see the game on TV, etc. and decide they want to try it. I don't see how this changes moving forward.

 

- I see a good mix of players in my age group (mid 20's-late 30's) every time i go to the public courses near me. Private clubs have completely priced themselves out of the equation for almost everyone in my peer group. But in 15 years...I know a lot of my friends and I all hope we'll be in a position where a club is an affordable luxury.

[Z1ggy16]

Even if the economy gets better, golf will still be expensive, and it boils down to if millennial would rather spend their extra money on golf vs say paying off extra loans or saving up for something like a house. Golf coming to the internet is a fairly new trend. You've got guys like Rick Shields with 500k subs now... You are starting to see 'online lessons' becoming popular because they offer most of what a one on one lessons does, but only at maybe 20-30% of the cost.

 

I can't site a source but I believe I did read an article recently that talked about the spending habits of each generation currently. I think as far as a % goes, millennial actually save the most and are more money conscious than their parents, and their parents parents. As a millenial myself I know for a fact my fiance and I are very money conscious... We worry ( I worry at least) that we may never actually own a house, or that when we could spend that money we will be old enough to the point we may actually risk dying before the house is even paid off. The days of 3 kids, a house, 2 cars, a dog... The original American Dream are long gone in my eyes. We are worried about, "hey, if we move to a 3 bed apartment in 2 years, can we even afford that? What if we have twins by chance... what then?"

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's not just the economy but also who is driving it. If this trend in golf picks up, especially the one where many sales of golf equipment mainly happen online (no longer Golf Galaxy off the rack, online lessons) plus new age golfers really focusing on saving money.... going to become a PGA pro at a course or being a free lance pro at a range may not be a good long term investment. I for one don't place any faith or opinion in Golf Digest or whatever golf magazine used to give you golf reviews from 5+ years ago.. It's all BS now. Youtube is really picking up and places like GolfWRX are where many people are starting to head for real golf advice and information. Things are definitely changing.

[shot-savior]

This isn't a political thread so don't start with that BS.

 

The economy is back on the rise. You can't deny it. Hopefully it keeps going that way. If it does, what do you think that will mean for the Golf industry? I know a lot of PGAs left the biz because of the crash that happened so should this newly revived economy be good for those that stuck around and those that want to get into it in a few years?

 

Not a political response; no emotion, just facts:

 

The economy is growing very slow minus energy. This marginal growth has come at a huge cost, for which we're all going to pay the price.

 

Since '09 the Federal Reserve has forced asset prices higher through near zero bound interest rates, QE1/2/3, Tarp, Harp, bailouts and other bank supports to the tune of $33 trillion. The economy grew $2.64 trillion in the same period as this spending. So, [we] got $1 growth for every $12.50 spent; how's that for a ROI?

 

Most thinking people know how this madness ends. And, it won't be good for any industry.

[Tcann32]

I don't think golf's current state of decline (?) is due to economical reasons as much as demographic reasons. Case and point, clubs have gone up 10-20% in price, and they still sell about as much as they used to. My generation just isn't as interested in the game, sadly.

 

As far as going to work in the business.. I doubt that'll change much either. My industry is booming and it hasn't equated higher pay across the board in all facets. Some, due to lack of availability in the worker/labor pool, but not so much due to the economy. Wages are still based on what you can produce for a company / employer, and we all know that just because there's more money, doesn't mean everyone will make more money.

 

I view employment in golf the same as I do education. You have some higher paying jobs that are harder to get and require a significant amount of training, education, and / or experience (also some niche jobs where some have made a significant some of money), and then you have those that are doing it because it's something they have a passion for, and really want to do, and making decent living doing it is a side bonus to doing what they love. Since the latter part is the majority, I don't think we will see an influx in applicants, or an influx in jobs in the golf industry. Millennials have high aspirations as far as payscale goes, and whether or not it's warranted is another conversation, but from what I've seen, these aspirations are taking away from types of employment that they don't think they'll make six figures (slight exaggeration) upon initial hiring, and if the likely hood of making it there isn't all but a sure thing, I think we'll still see a decline.

[8thehardway]

My older son loves golf but managed four rounds in three years due to career path (IT). A friend in his 40s was almost scratch but traded play and practice for career (Finance)and family years ago. Another friend in his 50s made great striides, getting down to a 4 h/c working part time (Medical) but demand for his services exploded and his game went sideways.

 

 

I'm retired, devoted to golf and play ok despite 200-yard drives. I see a lot of people who love a game they can't develop due to time constraints, which tenuously links their participation/enjoyment to friends who play rather than skills, and others whose skills atrophy as they attempt to secure a reasonable future. I'm sure golf will be fine but I think there's is a real and growing income disparity and if I were 30 I'd concern myself with my future and wouldn't give golf a moment's notice.

 

[dciccoritti]

Economy and wages are 2 separate things.

[Ferguson]

The golf economy runs on a different path then that of GDP.

[umassgolfer]

My older son loves golf but managed four rounds in three years due to career path (IT). A friend in his 40s was almost scratch but traded play and practice for career (Finance)and family years ago. Another friend in his 50s made great striides, getting down to a 4 h/c working part time (Medical) but demand for his services exploded and his game went sideways.

 

 

I'm retired, devoted to golf and play ok despite 200-yard drives. I see a lot of people who love a game they can't develop due to time constraints, which tenuously links their participation/enjoyment to friends who play rather than skills, and others whose skills atrophy as they attempt to secure a reasonable future. I'm sure golf will be fine but I think there's is a real and growing income disparity and if I were 30 I'd concern myself with my future and wouldn't give golf a moment's notice.

 

I know this comment is coming from a good place, but as a 31 year old, I kind of take offense to your last line. That being said, I am always looking for and considering the wisdom of those who have "been there, done that."

 

I am fortunate, but also far from alone, in my situation: a good, stable, modest job. Got married last year, bought a house this year in a nice town. No debt other than the mortgage, no kids yet (which I know will significantly change the equation). Golf is my one hobby with any cost, and is also a passion and how I stay close with some of my best friends.

 

My overall golf budget for any given year is right around $1,000. That's for rounds, equipment, etc. This year, I'll end up around $850 for 19 rounds. If I take a buddies golf trip, that would be additional. That's a pretty comfortable number that doesn't stress me financially. Some friends who make more than me spend a little more on their golf. Good for them.

 

So I would ask, how exactly should my friends and I be concerning myself with our futures instead of playing a $45-$70 round twice (hopefully) a month during the season?