AT&T Pebble Beach

[Matt J]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

 

Guys were calling Colleran a sandbagger because they were watching him play out of his mind during the coverage.

 

Because other guys in the field sandbag worse, that means Colleran can't be sandbagging?

 

His scores are way more consistent than most guys with a 15.4 index.

 

Only comparing the 10 scores that made it on his card, his best score is an 87 and his worse is a 91, that's a 4 shot difference. That's a telltale sign of the sandbagger. My card, considering I post every single round, as of the last revision of the season, I had differentials ranging from 1.9 to 12.3 as a 7.6 index. So, a 10.4 shot range or 2.5 times the scoring range of a guy that supposed to shoot twice as many strokes over par as me on average.

 

I play quite a bit with a guy who carries a 15.8 and his lowest score is a 85 and his highest on his card is a 95, that's a lot more normal.

This guy had 8 strokes separating his 20 scores and 10 is normal? Two shots is a clear indicator? I'm with Road King... Without knowing his gross scores in this event we have zero.

I would expect a 13-15 to help a pro 3-6 strokes a round in best ball. And still shot a normal score. The handful of pars he is likely to make do not have to happen on non stroke holes.

 

Nope. 10 is normal for 10 scores. Dude had 4 strokes. He has 8 strokes variance in 20 scores, more like 20 is normal. Twice the standard deviation.

 

I think most of us can read through the lines about why some of you are defending what clearly looks like sandbagging. Lots of toaster ovens in the closet ;)

 

I'd say a 13-15 helping a +6 by 3 to 6 strokes would be exceptional. Normal would be not to help at all. Every time you "help" would be defying 1 in 4 odds. Not impossible, but no likely to happen repeatedly.

[Matt J]

I'm confused. So the Pro-Am is no longer sh1t on a stick because no one wants to watch ams slap it all over the place, but because we now seriously give a toss whether some am is sandbagging and thus desecrating this finest of golfing traditions?

 

I think you have two different camps.

 

I for one would not turn down an invite to play the Pro Am.

 

The coverage from PGA TOUR Live was great. Very little of the celebrities. I would argue in years past, watching an Am play, well, like an Am was not all that exciting. Showing them embarrass themselves a little more so. Either way, if there's coverage of PBGL's on TV I'm going to tune in at least a little bit.

 

Sandbagging at one of the most coveted ProAm's in the world is just poor form. Not that surprising these days, but poor form nonetheless. I can't imagine having my integrity impeached at that station in life, but clearly some guys never learn. Like this guy....

 

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Pebble-organizers-wary-of-sandbaggers-3251517.php

[TheMoneyShot]

Damn, gotta say Casey sucks.. Wanted anyone but FIGJAM to win....

 

Gotta love Figjam:)

[Roadking2003]

Nope. 10 is normal for 10 scores. Dude had 4 strokes. He has 8 strokes variance in 20 scores, more like 20 is normal. Twice the standard deviation.

 

Well, then using your standards I must be a sandbagger. It is not unusual at all for my last 20 scores to be within 8 strokes. Especially if all are at my home course. And I doubt that I have ever had a variance of 20 strokes, so no, 20 is NOT normal.

 

I think most of us can read through the lines about why some of you are defending what clearly looks like sandbagging. Lots of toaster ovens in the closet ;)

 

I have no idea what that means. Please help me "read through the lines". And BTW, I have no toaster ovens in the closet, whatever that means.

 

I'd say a 13-15 helping a +6 by 3 to 6 strokes would be exceptional. Normal would be not to help at all. Every time you "help" would be defying 1 in 4 odds. Not impossible, but no likely to happen repeatedly.

 

Do you realize that they are using handicaps? So an 18 capper is just as likely to help a pro as a 5 capper.

 

Do the math. Somebody posted that his index is 15.4. That means his course handicap is probably 18. Which means he gets a stroke on EVERY hole. So every time he makes a par, it's a net birdie.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I have no idea if the poor guy was sandbagging or not, but I do know 13 seemed about right based on what I saw of his move. On the other side of the coin, who here thinks Carlton is a legit 3?

[Roadking2003]

Sandbagging at one of the most coveted ProAm's in the world is just poor form.

 

Actually, sandbagging anywhere is just poor form.

 

And accusing somebody of sandbagging without any evidence is pretty close to the same poor form.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Sandbagging at one of the most coveted ProAm's in the world is just poor form.

 

Actually, sandbagging anywhere is just poor form.

 

And accusing somebody of sandbagging without any evidence is pretty close to the same poor form.

 

I might argue it's worse form.

[Roadking2003]

I have no idea if the poor guy was sandbagging or not, but I do know 13 seemed about right based on what I saw of his move. On the other side of the coin, who here thinks Carlton is a legit 3?

 

Who is Carlton?

[Matt J]

Someone posted earlier that the tournament committee gave him a reduction this year. But, I guess that's probably not from sandbagging?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I have no idea if the poor guy was sandbagging or not, but I do know 13 seemed about right based on what I saw of his move. On the other side of the coin, who here thinks Carlton is a legit 3?

 

Who is Carlton?

 

Alfonso Ribiero (sp?).

[puttingmatt]

Congratulations Phil, great win,

[Mr. Grumpy]

I have no idea if the poor guy was sandbagging or not, but I do know 13 seemed about right based on what I saw of his move. On the other side of the coin, who here thinks Carlton is a legit 3?

 

Who is Carlton?

 

He was the one passing out toaster ovens in the Hamm's hospitality tent...

[Shilgy]

All this arguing from both sides, all are absolutely positive they're right, and we still don't know what the guy shot.

[golfer07840]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

 

Guys were calling Colleran a sandbagger because they were watching him play out of his mind during the coverage.

 

Because other guys in the field sandbag worse, that means Colleran can't be sandbagging?

 

His scores are way more consistent than most guys with a 15.4 index.

 

Only comparing the 10 scores that made it on his card, his best score is an 87 and his worse is a 91, that's a 4 shot difference. That's a telltale sign of the sandbagger. My card, considering I post every single round, as of the last revision of the season, I had differentials ranging from 1.9 to 12.3 as a 7.6 index. So, a 10.4 shot range or 2.5 times the scoring range of a guy that supposed to shoot twice as many strokes over par as me on average.

 

I play quite a bit with a guy who carries a 15.8 and his lowest score is a 85 and his highest on his card is a 95, that's a lot more normal.

 

Agree 100%.

 

I'm a 16.9 and my lowest is an 84 with a high of 100 over my last 20.

[Shilgy]

A guy in out Saturday group is a 15 with a range of 86-94. So y'all are calling him a bagger?

For those with a huge variance... Do you post using ESC? That's what we discussing here. Posted scores not actual. Most mid teens are going to have a few holes affected by ESC.

 

Edit PS the range of scores is ok to discuss but not really the scores themselves. That is too dependent on the course rating. I would expect a higher course rating to cause a wider variance of scores for a mid teen cap. Higher slope will definitely cause a wider range. The gentleman in question plays a lower rated course.

[jdl]

Is it just me or did Phil stop doing that thing where he was picking the club head straight up 6 inches before starting his back swing? It seemed like a totally unnecessary move and may have served him well to remove it.

 

He seems to be driving it better than ever.

 

You try doing that move and chewing gum at the same time. Not possible.

[Shilgy]

Nope. 10 is normal for 10 scores. Dude had 4 strokes. He has 8 strokes variance in 20 scores, more like 20 is normal. Twice the standard deviation.

 

Well, then using your standards I must be a sandbagger. It is not unusual at all for my last 20 scores to be within 8 strokes. Especially if all are at my home course. And I doubt that I have ever had a variance of 20 strokes, so no, 20 is NOT normal.

 

I think most of us can read through the lines about why some of you are defending what clearly looks like sandbagging. Lots of toaster ovens in the closet ;)

 

I have no idea what that means. Please help me "read through the lines". And BTW, I have no toaster ovens in the closet, whatever that means.

 

I'd say a 13-15 helping a +6 by 3 to 6 strokes would be exceptional. Normal would be not to help at all. Every time you "help" would be defying 1 in 4 odds. Not impossible, but no likely to happen repeatedly.

 

Do you realize that they are using handicaps? So an 18 capper is just as likely to help a pro as a 5 capper.

 

Do the math. Somebody posted that his index is 15.4. That means his course handicap is probably 18. Which means he gets a stroke on EVERY hole. So every time he makes a par, it's a net birdie.

I read the read between the lines but as accusing us of being baggers.

[tiderider]

L ... O ... L ... people are SHOCKED that a celebrity or rich person might sandbag? ... at a pro/am? ...

 

[BirdieRoll]

The takeaway for me is when Nantz asked Faldo Sunday afternoon before the Mickelson/Casey pairing teed off if they could complete their round in five hours.

 

Faldo flat out said "no way."

 

Two pros, with caddies, on a 6,800 yard course, the two best golfers at that point in the tournament, and they couldn't finish a round in FIVE hours? And then Phil's upset that Casey didn't want to keep playing in the dark?

 

Maybe move your Word not allowed and pick up the pace next time. All involved should be embarrassed.

 

Don't look now but golf is becoming like baseball and that's not a good thing.

[halliedog]

I had to work this morning so missed it. Who ended up winning both low Pro and Team? :)

[Big Cat 3]

The takeaway for me is when Nantz asked Faldo Sunday afternoon before the Mickelson/Casey pairing teed off if they could complete their round in five hours.

 

Faldo flat out said "no way."

 

Two pros, with caddies, on a 6,800 yard course, the two best golfers at that point in the tournament, and they couldn't finish a round in FIVE hours? And then Phil's upset that Casey didn't want to keep playing in the dark?

 

Maybe move your Word not allowed and pick up the pace next time. All involved should be embarrassed.

 

Don't look now but golf is becoming like baseball and that's not a good thing.

no kidding ... watching them mozy down the 1st fairway you knew they would never finish. Then Casey calling over the lazy rules officials that had the urgency of brick every other hole. Learn to mark your ball you are a professional. Apparently Mark minuteman Russell gets a daily stipend and wanted to just stay another nite to make some good extra money.

Finish the damn round you blokes

[lowheel]

I have no idea if the poor guy was sandbagging or not, but I do know 13 seemed about right based on what I saw of his move. On the other side of the coin, who here thinks Carlton is a legit 3?

 

Who is Carlton?

 

How dare you sir!!!!

 

[Big Cat 3]

L ... O ... L ... people are SHOCKED that a celebrity or rich person might sandbag? ... at a pro/am? ...

 

haha no kidding that tall dork probably has screwed more people than Storm Daniels ... just like the rest of the Wall Street thieves. Remember when Kenny G used to say he was a plus 2, he could hit his pan flute higher than his 210 yd drives. Maury Povich was a plus 12 or something ... hell hack Chris Berman said he was a 21 ! that slob couldn’t break 130 playing by the rules.

[lowheel]

Damn, gotta say Casey sucks.. Wanted anyone but FIGJAM to win....

 

Are you going to be okay?

[carrera]

I spent 7 years running a corporate tent at the AT&T. The weather always sucked.

 

What years?

[Hawkeye77]

Yep that's possible. A friend and I got beat several ago under the same circumstance. We had a ton of birdies, but on the same holes. We got beat by two guys with less holes, but on alternate holes. Sucks, but it happens.

 

The high level point in this is that winning is more than amateur playing good golf. It is doing it at the right time. Have 2 birdies a round when your pro gets a bogie and you are at -16 for the tournament. 2 adjusted birdies for a 13 isn't much of a stretch. Having them happen at the right time though is. That is were luck comes in. A 13 winning the tournament is likely to be playing slightly above his average (i.e. maybe gets 4 adjusted birdies/round instead of the expected 3) and then it is just a matter of if the birdies happen at the right time. It would be interesting to know how many natural birdies/pars this guy has had versus every other 10-15 in the field. Is he playing abnormally good (top 5% of expected results) or is he playing good (top 25% results) and being lucky.

 

But yeah the guys scores look really consistent. Maybe that is his game or the course he plays at.

 

I don't think we will get to see the am's card anywhere unless he puts it on IG...not seeing that happening!

 

But, at quick glance, it looks like the "13" contributed to the "Team" cause not too outrageously. Some of those net birdies could be a net eagle, but I doubt it. It just appeared from the numerous shots on Sunday he was playing out of his mind, as it does on Thursday, so perhaps he loves Pebble.

 

Thursday, PB - 6 net birdies in 14 holes

Friday, MPCC - 2 net birdies in 12 holes

Saturday, SH - 4 net birdies in 12 holes

Sunday, PB - 3 net birdies in 16 holes

He may have made net pars when Casey bogeyed as well. They don't all have to be net birdies to help the team score.

 

And how many holes just like #18 today. Casey makes the birdie (he made plenty) so he picks up without even finishing out. When he had a very reasonable putt for a net birdie.

 

Pretty salty fairway bunker shot at 18 this morning, sorry but don’t see too many guys shooting mid to high 90s consistently with that kind of action, lol.

[tokeyb]

Damn, gotta say Casey sucks.. Wanted anyone but FIGJAM to win....

 

Gotta love Figjam:)

 

Okay, I cry Uncle. Somebody help me out on FIGJAM.

 

I mean, I still do the Jumble in the paper every day, and it only took me a couple posts to figure out Not So Young Anymore JS. But I am lost.

 

Fifty Is Good, Just Ask Mickelson?

For Insider Goods, Just Ask M?

Fill is Generous just ask Mackaye?

Fat isn't gonna josh a Mick?

 

As I said, hopeless.

[Hawkeye77]

L ... O ... L ... people are SHOCKED that a celebrity or rich person might sandbag? ... at a pro/am? ...

 

haha no kidding that tall dork probably has screwed more people than Storm Daniels ... just like the rest of the Wall Street thieves. Remember when Kenny G used to say he was a plus 2, he could hit his pan flute higher than his 210 yd drives. Maury Povich was a plus 12 or something ... hell hack Chris Berman said he was a 21 ! that slob couldn’t break 130 playing by the rules.

 

You don’t seem to grasp sandbagging.

[Obee]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

So it must be that Romano has us all faked out with his ineptitude? :) The player that makes all net pars will never be called a bagger in best ball. The erratic player that makes a couple gross birds, a handful of net birds, and a bunch of bogeys and worse will always be under scrutiny. A friend of mine one shot 77 while making 7 gross birdies as an 8 handicap. Does that make him a sandbagger?

 

I play with a guy who is a 13. He makes way more birds than me, I am a 8. He hits it 300 yards, I am much shorter. I might play several rounds without a birdie or a double bogey, he usually makes 2-3 birdies and doubles and "others" a round.

 

This guy was NOT that guy.

[castellar]

Damn, gotta say Casey sucks.. Wanted anyone but FIGJAM to win....

 

Gotta love Figjam:)

 

Okay, I cry Uncle. Somebody help me out on FIGJAM.

 

I mean, I still do the Jumble in the paper every day, and it only took me a couple posts to figure out Not So Young Anymore JS. But I am lost.

 

Fifty Is Good, Just Ask Mickelson?

For Insider Goods, Just Ask M?

Fill is Generous just ask Mackaye?

Fat isn't gonna josh a Mick?

 

As I said, hopeless.

 

 

F**k I’m good, just ask me

 

Phil was quite the arrogant one in his early years. Some would say he still is.