AT&T Pebble Beach

[TheMoneyShot]

Phil is seriously dangerous in all the majors this season. Would be awesome to see him do the double and get the U.S Open at Pebble Beach

 

I agree! I would love to see him complete his career grand slam at pebble this year. What a great story that would be..

[dlygrisse]

He seems to be driving it better than ever.

He was at 312ypd through 3 rounds and good for 6th(Can you friggin believe that five guys averaged more than that, lol???) and dialed it back yesterday to finish at 304.4 for 24th spot, so he can still send it deep when necessary.

 

Have a nice day Bro

RP

 

All carry too, every one of his drives plugged yesterday. That's long at sea level with cold wet air. Very impressive. With the old ball they used to say PB was the land of the 150 yard 7 iron. Now it's 190..LOL.

[golfer07840]

I bet everyone with a Monday tee time were pissed.

 

I was thinking this exact thing while watching.

[deadsolid...shank]

Someone in this thread has asked about the winning AM and his 13 handicap. A lot of people saying he's sandbagging and even found him on GHIN with a 15 hdcp; but also was asking how his scores compared to the Pope Of Slope numbers.

 

Well, I crunched said numbers and while I don't have the AM scorecard (it's not on the PGA site) I can't tell what his gross score was. BUT, I did use the rating/slope for all 3 courses from the white tees and than figured out his course handicap.

 

According to the numbers, our mysterious 13 handicap, if he played to his handicap (which, according to the Pope of Slope, is only done once every 5 rounds or so), he would have shot at Pebble, 87, Spyglass 86 and MPCC - Shore Course 82 (the exact numbers worked out to .6 after, but we don't round up).

 

So you guys be the judge. Was he out there at Pebble shooting 87? My eyes tell me no way.

How does anyone know what he shot each day. I cannot find the information. We only saw him play on the holes his net score bettered Casey. Also noticed a lot of greens he was not even putting.

 

I don't think we do. But based on the amount of quality shots he was hitting, under pressure with the final group, I sincerely doubt he's a 13 HDCP.

 

Which I think is everyone's point.

 

However, I am genuinely curious as to what he did shoot.

 

This is obviously a very smart man. If he a sandbagger (all conjecture at this point I admit) then there is no way he’s going to finish holes if he doesn’t need to. #18 was a prime example, four footer for par, Casey rolls in his birdie, balll goes in pocket. Likely par, but no score recorded.

 

But I willl agree with Shilgy, the 3 handicap who helped the most, wow.

[Roadking2003]

AT&T Pro AM, what a crock. I understand that someone has to win, but, when does a 13 HCP shoot 15 under on a course set up for a professional tournament. HCP are a potential of your capabilities. How does an AM shoot that far below their HCP. SANDBAGGER mean anything?

 

What were his scores?

 

Aren't they at -30 or something as a team ?

 

But to comment on sandbagging, we need to know his gross scores.

 

You really don’t though. Everyone who has been around the game for a while knows that guys who really manipulate their handicap are especially talented at working it in any type of best ball scenario. Really easy to have a four in the bag and “suddenly” card a six when your partner holes a long one out of the blue.

 

When questioning this particular handicap I think the eye test, combined with the current handicap card is more telling than any gross score.

 

RK, did you see the handicap card posted earlier, and note the range of scores?

 

No, I haven't seen any amateur scores or handicap cards. Just team scores and the first place team won by two strokes. Two strokes over four days is not an indication of sandbagging.

[golfer07840]

Paul Casey has had three 54 hole leads on the PGA Tour in his career.

 

He failed to win all of them.

 

His record now stands at 2 wins and 9 seconds.

 

Paul seems like it's more important to him to be a nice guy and goofy acting than to have any killer instinct whatsoever. He kind of gets this dazed look on his face whenever he gets in contention and you can see he knows it's not going to happen.

 

Come on. Give Casey a break (on this one). Phil shot 65 on Sunday/Monday.

 

Agreed. Wasn't like he pulled a Rory, circa 2011 at The Masters and shot 80.

[deadsolid...shank]

 

AT&T Pro AM, what a crock. I understand that someone has to win, but, when does a 13 HCP shoot 15 under on a course set up for a professional tournament. HCP are a potential of your capabilities. How does an AM shoot that far below their HCP. SANDBAGGER mean anything?

 

 

What were his scores?

 

Aren't they at -30 or something as a team ?

 

But to comment on sandbagging, we need to know his gross scores.

 

You really don’t though. Everyone who has been around the game for a while knows that guys who really manipulate their handicap are especially talented at working it in any type of best ball scenario. Really easy to have a four in the bag and “suddenly” card a six when your partner holes a long one out of the blue.

 

When questioning this particular handicap I think the eye test, combined with the current handicap card is more telling than any gross score.

 

RK, did you see the handicap card posted earlier, and note the range of scores?

 

No, I haven't seen any amateur scores or handicap cards. Just team scores and the first place team won by two strokes. Two strokes over four days is not an indication of sandbagging.

 

Who said anything about two strokes meaning anything?

[Roadking2003]

Here’s the FedEx mission statement. Note that it says nothing about honesty or integrity, so the sandbagging thing is pretty much consistent with the culture... Kind of sounds like it’s all about money.

 

 

“FedEx Corporation will produce superior financial returns for its shareowners by providing high value-added logistics, transportation and related business services through focused operating companies. Customer requirements will be met in the highest quality manner appropriate to each market segment served.

 

So you don't think customers are important in a mission statement? Strange.

[Roadking2003]

 

Who said anything about two strokes meaning anything?

 

OK, I'm confused. Why do you think he is a sandbagger? What facts do you have?

[golfer07840]

Someone in this thread has asked about the winning AM and his 13 handicap. A lot of people saying he's sandbagging and even found him on GHIN with a 15 hdcp; but also was asking how his scores compared to the Pope Of Slope numbers.

 

Well, I crunched said numbers and while I don't have the AM scorecard (it's not on the PGA site) I can't tell what his gross score was. BUT, I did use the rating/slope for all 3 courses from the white tees and than figured out his course handicap.

 

According to the numbers, our mysterious 13 handicap, if he played to his handicap (which, according to the Pope of Slope, is only done once every 5 rounds or so), he would have shot at Pebble, 87, Spyglass 86 and MPCC - Shore Course 82 (the exact numbers worked out to .6 after, but we don't round up).

 

So you guys be the judge. Was he out there at Pebble shooting 87? My eyes tell me no way.

How does anyone know what he shot each day. I cannot find the information. We only saw him play on the holes his net score bettered Casey. Also noticed a lot of greens he was not even putting.

 

I don't think we do. But based on the amount of quality shots he was hitting, under pressure with the final group, I sincerely doubt he's a 13 HDCP.

 

Which I think is everyone's point.

 

However, I am genuinely curious as to what he did shoot.

 

This is obviously a very smart man. If he a sandbagger (all conjecture at this point I admit) then there is no way he’s going to finish holes if he doesn’t need to. #18 was a prime example, four footer for par, Casey rolls in his birdie, balll goes in pocket. Likely par, but no score recorded.

 

But I willl agree with Shilgy, the 3 handicap who helped the most, wow.

 

I believe that if he was keeping a gross score that it would have gone down as a 4 anyway, because the USGA says to put down your most likely score. Unless he usually 3 putts from 4 feet, I'd say a par would be the most likely score.

 

Either way, I saw no evidence that he was shooting an 87 or worse.

[deadsolid...shank]

 

Who said anything about two strokes meaning anything?

 

OK, I'm confused. Why do you think he is a sandbagger? What facts do you have?

 

Just read back through the thread. I’m not going to list the reasons why I believe again. I’ve spouted them enough. But the reasons are all in there.

[Dave230]

Mickelson's longevity might be his greatest legacy. PGA Tour winning span of 28 years is mightily impressive. 25 years in the top 50 of the world equally so. Any time he seems to drift out towards 40, he'll go on a run for a month to get comfortably back within it.

[Roadking2003]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

[Roadking2003]

This is obviously a very smart man. If he a sandbagger (all conjecture at this point I admit) then there is no way he’s going to finish holes if he doesn’t need to. #18 was a prime example, four footer for par, Casey rolls in his birdie, balll goes in pocket. Likely par, but no score recorded.

 

I'm pretty sure the amateurs were told to pick up when their score didn't matter. It happened dozens of times on TV.

[chickwebb]

Since the tournament website said that admission to the course and 17-mile drive were free, and you could park in the normal visitor parking, I decided to go watch before I went into work this morning. Nice, quiet 45 minute drive down the coast, got there at 7:15, and parked right across from the main entrance. Walked down to 17 and sat in the VIP suite stands for about 1/2 hour chatting with some nice fellow golf fans before they started. In the end there were maybe 300 people there. A very nice way to start the week.

[Titleist_PT23]

I disagree with the comments that this year is the last chance Phil has at a US Open and that he'll never make it to 50 wins. The guy is gonna be relevant on the tour and in majors for many years to come. He can still move the ball and he's putting better now than at any point in his career, particularly the short ones that used to leave him snake-bitten.

 

100% this. Would not surprise me if he wins a major at 53 or 54. Or even later, if he decides to keep playing.

 

And you are right on about the putting. The claw completely changed him and Justin Rose both.

Phil is my favorite player but I'd still take the under on 50 wins. 1 win per year for 6 more years or winning 2x for 3 years just seems like a lot (he won twice in 2013 and then you have to go back to 2009 to get a multiple win season). Yes, he could have 2 wins in the last month, but he also went nearly 5 years between wins. Kenny Perry had a flurry in his late 40s but to keep it going for several years is something different (even considering Mickelson is clearly better).

 

I also thought this US Open was his last chance (see the thread about the Champions Tour) given the next couple of courses after Pebble Beach (I don't know how to assess Brookline or LACC).

 

I hope he keeps it going but I wouldn't bet on it. I know recent results matter, but I really wonder how many people would have believed this 2nd half of last year.

[Shilgy]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

So it must be that Romano has us all faked out with his ineptitude? :) The player that makes all net pars will never be called a bagger in best ball. The erratic player that makes a couple gross birds, a handful of net birds, and a bunch of bogeys and worse will always be under scrutiny. A friend of mine one shot 77 while making 7 gross birdies as an 8 handicap. Does that make him a sandbagger?

[Forged4ever]

This is obviously a very smart man. If he a sandbagger (all conjecture at this point I admit) then there is no way he’s going to finish holes if he doesn’t need to. #18 was a prime example, four footer for par, Casey rolls in his birdie, balll goes in pocket. Likely par, but no score recorded.

I'm pretty sure the amateurs were told to pick up when their score didn't matter. It happened dozens of times on TV.

Yeppers, absolutely, as this has happened in every Pro/Am that I’ve ever Played in regardless of the Tour.

 

Most of the time this was understood though I always made it a point to quietly announce it to the group on one tee, and I never had a Pro say anything cept “thank you,” lol

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friend⛳️

RP

[dlygrisse]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

So it must be that Romano has us all faked out with his ineptitude? :) The player that makes all net pars will never be called a bagger in best ball. The erratic player that makes a couple gross birds, a handful of net birds, and a bunch of bogeys and worse will always be under scrutiny. A friend of mine one shot 77 while making 7 gross birdies as an 8 handicap. Does that make him a sandbagger?

 

I play with a guy who is a 13. He makes way more birds than me, I am a 8. He hits it 300 yards, I am much shorter. I might play several rounds without a birdie or a double bogey, he usually makes 2-3 birdies and doubles and "others" a round.

[dwboston]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

 

Now put each of their handicaps next to how much they helped.

[jmvargas]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

So it must be that Romano has us all faked out with his ineptitude? :) The player that makes all net pars will never be called a bagger in best ball. The erratic player that makes a couple gross birds, a handful of net birds, and a bunch of bogeys and worse will always be under scrutiny. A friend of mine one shot 77 while making 7 gross birdies as an 8 handicap. Does that make him a sandbagger?

 

I play with a guy who is a 13. He makes way more birds than me, I am a 8. He hits it 300 yards, I am much shorter. I might play several rounds without a birdie or a double bogey, he usually makes 2-3 birdies and doubles and "others" a round.

 

 

THAT is a guy I would enjoy playing with!!

[Darth Putter]

Crosby/ US Open winners in the same year

 

1972: Jack Nicklaus/ Jack Nicklaus

1982: Jim Simons/ Tom Watson

1992: Mark O'Meara/ Tom Kite

2000: Tiger Woods/ Tiger Woods

2010: Dustin Johnson/ Graeme McDowell

2019: Phil Mickelson/ ????????

[Matt J]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

 

Guys were calling Colleran a sandbagger because they were watching him play out of his mind during the coverage.

 

Because other guys in the field sandbag worse, that means Colleran can't be sandbagging?

 

His scores are way more consistent than most guys with a 15.4 index.

 

Only comparing the 10 scores that made it on his card, his best score is an 87 and his worse is a 91, that's a 4 shot difference. That's a telltale sign of the sandbagger. My card, considering I post every single round, as of the last revision of the season, I had differentials ranging from 1.9 to 12.3 as a 7.6 index. So, a 10.4 shot range or 2.5 times the scoring range of a guy that supposed to shoot twice as many strokes over par as me on average.

 

I play quite a bit with a guy who carries a 15.8 and his lowest score is a 85 and his highest on his card is a 95, that's a lot more normal.

[doglegs]

I agree its rare to have such a small range of scores, especially for a 15 capper. My last 20 have a high of 96 and a low of 79 for a 7.9 index. Am I bagging? No. I just had one of those rounds on one of those days with one of those hangovers.

[toddnt]

Damn, gotta say Casey sucks.. Wanted anyone but FIGJAM to win....

[Roadking2003]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

 

Now put each of their handicaps next to how much they helped.

 

Why does handicap matter? Aren't they playing with full handicaps? So a 15 capper shooting net 72 is the same as a 2 capper shooting 72.

[Roadking2003]

 

Guys were calling Colleran a sandbagger because they were watching him play out of his mind during the coverage.

 

He probably made close to 350 strokes over four days. How many did you see? 5%? 10%?

 

You are aware that the TV guys CHOOSE which shots to show, right? And if you are choosing which of his shots to show, wouldn't you choose his BEST shots?

[Shilgy]

It's really strange to see so many posters jumping to the sandbagger conclusion with very little info. Do you not understand how team golf works?

 

First place: Casey was -16, the team was -34. So Colleran helped 18 strokes

 

Second place: Clark was -2, his team was -32. So Rooney helped 30 strokes

 

Third place: Teater was -4, his team was -30. So Smith helped 26 strokes

 

Fourth place: Schenk was -4, his team was -27. So Romano helped 24 strokes

 

 

So tell me again why you think Colleran is a sandbagger. Or is my math wrong?

 

Guys were calling Colleran a sandbagger because they were watching him play out of his mind during the coverage.

 

Because other guys in the field sandbag worse, that means Colleran can't be sandbagging?

 

His scores are way more consistent than most guys with a 15.4 index.

 

Only comparing the 10 scores that made it on his card, his best score is an 87 and his worse is a 91, that's a 4 shot difference. That's a telltale sign of the sandbagger. My card, considering I post every single round, as of the last revision of the season, I had differentials ranging from 1.9 to 12.3 as a 7.6 index. So, a 10.4 shot range or 2.5 times the scoring range of a guy that supposed to shoot twice as many strokes over par as me on average.

 

I play quite a bit with a guy who carries a 15.8 and his lowest score is a 85 and his highest on his card is a 95, that's a lot more normal.

This guy had 8 strokes separating his 20 scores and 10 is normal? Two shots is a clear indicator? I'm with Road King... Without knowing his gross scores in this event we have zero.

I would expect a 13-15 to help a pro 3-6 strokes a round in best ball. And still shot a normal score. The handful of pars he is likely to make do not have to happen on non stroke holes.

[duffer987]

I'm confused. So the Pro-Am is no longer sh1t on a stick because no one wants to watch ams slap it all over the place, but because we now seriously give a toss whether some am is sandbagging and thus desecrating this finest of golfing traditions?

[tgreenwood11]

I spent 7 years running a corporate tent at the AT&T. The weather always sucked.