The strange case of Tiger Woods

[dlygrisse]

> @bscinstnct said:

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > The Masters was really cool! Tiger is done. Cooked. Finished. Broken. The fact that he won the Masters after what he has been through is remarkable. But he just can’t put in the work to maintain what he needs to compete any longer. Having a bad back sucks. Just appreciate what he did and move on.

>

> Yeah, but there were thousands of these exact posts like just over a year ago ; )

>

> I’m thinking I agree but this guy is like a Phoenix.

>

>

Anything is possible. But it’s more about the weather and the barometric pressure than Tigers skill at this point. The dude has had multiple back surgeries.

 

[lowheel]

> @ebrasmus21 said:

> > @lowheel said:

> > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @"Titleist 670" said:

> > > > > > @16kid said:

> > > > > > I adored Tiger as a kid. I just feel his win at Torrey Pines on a broken leg was way more remarkable than winning the Masters, not playing at all and then falling of the face of the earth. That’s sad.

> > > > >

> > > > > I love how people refer to it as a broken leg. Never gets old.

> > > >

> > > > You try it, let is know how you cope.

> > > > ...

> > > > Stress fractures are common in foot and ankle bones because we continually place force on them by standing, walking, running and jumping. In a stress fracture, the bone breaks but usually does not shift position (become "displaced").

> > >

> > >

> > > Was combined with a torn acl right?

> > >

> > > We all like to think we have a high threshold of pain. But TWs is off the charts.

> > >

> >

> > and we now know how it was that high.Insane amounts of

>

> Hey hey hey hey hey, hey, hey..... easy now.

 

I didnt think that was a controversial take my good man

[KRAMER1997]

He'll be fine, Tiger won't contend week in/week out and will miss-cuts more frequently but if it clicks once or twice a year there's nothing more we could ask for as fans.

[lowheel]

> @dlygrisse said:

> The Masters was really cool! Tiger is done. Cooked. Finished. Broken. The fact that he won the Masters after what he has been through is remarkable. But he just can’t put in the work to maintain what he needs to compete any longer. Having a bad back sucks. Just appreciate what he did and move on.

 

the real problem is that the delusional fans who think prime Tiger is coming back are fueling this trash. the guy still has elite wedge play and elite iron play and his usual insane golf IQ. Hes played in what 30 events in the last 2 years. Has 2 wins and 11 top 10s. he moved up to 5 in OWGR. What more did people expect is my question? If he can repeat any of his last 2 seasons next year its a fantastic result.

[ibradley]

> @third-times-a-charm said:

> If Molinari didnt get beaten by a pine cone Tiger woulda lost

 

Counter factual are interesting and certainly make for good discussion. We will never know how the rest of the tournament unfolds if not for the pine cone on 15. Maybe the moment becomes too big for Molinari coming in. Maybe Tiger needing better than pars birdies 17 or 18.

 

 

[ebrasmus21]

> @lowheel said:

> > @ebrasmus21 said:

> > > @lowheel said:

> > > > @bscinstnct said:

> > > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > > @"Titleist 670" said:

> > > > > > > @16kid said:

> > > > > > > I adored Tiger as a kid. I just feel his win at Torrey Pines on a broken leg was way more remarkable than winning the Masters, not playing at all and then falling of the face of the earth. That’s sad.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I love how people refer to it as a broken leg. Never gets old.

> > > > >

> > > > > You try it, let is know how you cope.

> > > > > ...

> > > > > Stress fractures are common in foot and ankle bones because we continually place force on them by standing, walking, running and jumping. In a stress fracture, the bone breaks but usually does not shift position (become "displaced").

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Was combined with a torn acl right?

> > > >

> > > > We all like to think we have a high threshold of pain. But TWs is off the charts.

> > > >

> > >

> > > and we now know how it was that high.Insane amounts of

> >

> > Hey hey hey hey hey, hey, hey..... easy now.

>

> I didnt think that was a controversial take my good man

 

I’m just being dramatic. Have to do my part.

[ibradley]

Tiger looked decent at the US Open. Putter kept him from being closer to the mix. I thought he would be ready to play in the warm weather playoffs. Disappointing to see him look so tired, stiff and dare I say old.

[Hankshank]

I aint no surgeon. Have only heard that he has been ”stiff” in the later tournaments. Does he have any actual injuries? Read through the thread, dont know what an acl is.

[MountainGoat]

> @Hankshank said:

> I aint no surgeon. Have only heard that he has been ”stiff” in the later tournaments. Does he have any actual injuries? Read through the thread, dont know what an acl is.

 

Tiger has not admitted to any injuries, and historically never has. For example, he said his back was "fine" the day before he went in for fusion surgery.

 

An ACL injury is a tear or sprain of the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) — one of the major ligaments in your knee.

[kylemd]

I dunno.... Hes won THE tournament that he wanted. Looks mentally and physically worn out. Yes he has distractions with Pres cup, but I wonder just how much, in his heart of hearts, down where ya keep the gut check, if he really wants it anymore. Even the best musicians on the planet just get tired of playing and touring. Happened to me.... just lose interest in it sometimes. His back isnt helping. Speculation but I wonder just how much he desires to play anymore for himself. Hes set for life and has stated his priorities have changed to kids etc.

[jdl]

I've been wondering about his motivation after the Masters win. It seems like he spent the few weeks after that basking in the glow of what he'd done. And who can blame him? But what's next? Catching Jack? Still possible, but unlikely and would take several years of grinding to get ready for each major. And the new compressed schedule doesn't help. I expect he'll give it a go for at least another year or two, but if he doesn't get another one soon, just seems like there's not much left for him to really accomplish.

[North Butte]

> @kylemd said:

> I dunno.... Hes won THE tournament that he wanted. Looks mentally and physically worn out. Yes he has distractions with Pres cup, but I wonder just how much, in his heart of hearts, down where ya keep the gut check, if he really wants it anymore. Even the best musicians on the planet just get tired of playing and touring. Happened to me.... just lose interest in it sometimes. His back isnt helping. Speculation but I wonder just how much he desires to play anymore for himself. Hes set for life and has stated his priorities have changed to kids etc.

 

He wants "it". He just can't roll out of bed every morning and go after "it" like he used to. During the rare periods he can go after it, he's capable of winning.

 

If he's now content to (mostly) be a dad and person rather than a golf machine, that's simply a healthy way of accepting his physical reality. You're getting cause and effect backwards. He didn't decide not to bother trying to win any more because he wants to stay home with the kids. He is staying home more with the kids because 90% of the time he simply can't play and practice.

 

Not every great athlete has been able to make that transition. I hope he's one of the ones who find happiness even after the winning is over.

 

 

[jtitleist12]

I am starting to think that his Masters win pushed him over the edge again physically...maybe his back was in bad shape already while playing this year's Masters and he realized the opportunity in front of him was too great not to push through it ala the '08 US Open. The video that was posted the day after the Masters win where he could barely walk was concerning to say the least. Ever since then, he hasn't played very much and you can tell he isn't practicing in the areas you need to as a touring pro to be successful (short irons, chipping, putting). I also think Tiger knows he has a finite amount of time left for competitive golf.

[North Butte]

I don't know if it was pushing too hard or not. He no doubt pushed through all sorts of pain and dysfunction but it was probably just good fortune to make it through the 72nd hole before everything seized up again. Could have just as easily happened two days earlier or even just a few holes earlier, which would have cost him the tournament. It was a miracle, is what it was.

 

The majority of the time he's in such a condition that no amount of pushing through or willpower can get it done.

[physasst]

I practice in non-operative spine care at a world class medical facility. There are a few things to note. Cold weather will not work for him. Not when you have hardware in the spine. He will not contend or play well in cold, damp weather. Just isn't going to happen. The last 3 majors, Bethpage, Pebble, and Portrush were all colder and wetter. He needs to play in warmer conditions at this point. IE; the schedule change for the PGA really hosed him. Also, one of the primary complications of spinal fusion surgery, and one of the reasons we always try to avoid it is something called adjacent segment disease. The problems with fusions are, that you are essentially taking a multi-segmented device that is designed to have every segment move in small degrees of motion (similar to a chain on a bicycle- I know the mechanics are NOT exactly the same-rotation/lateral flexion) and you immobilize 2 or more segments, and you then put much more additional stress on the segments above and below the fusion. This leads to them failing faster than they would otherwise. IE; the patient that ends up getting more surgery every 2-3 years with more and more hardware put in. NOW, this is in a normal person who isn't swinging a golf club at 120 mph and hitting out of horrible lies and trying to compete as a professional athlete on a world stage. Bottom line is, the more he plays, the quicker his career will end. I believe him when he says he is trying to find balance. We actually have had discussions at work about how soon his fusion will fail.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @physasst said:

> I practice in non-operative spine care at a world class medical facility. There are a few things to note. Cold weather will not work for him. Not when you have hardware in the spine. He will not contend or play well in cold, damp weather. Just isn't going to happen. The last 3 majors, Bethpage, Pebble, and Portrush were all colder and wetter. He needs to play in warmer conditions at this point. IE; the schedule change for the PGA really hosed him. Also, one of the primary complications of spinal fusion surgery, and one of the reasons we always try to avoid it is something called adjacent segment disease. The problems with fusions are, that you are essentially taking a multi-segmented device that is designed to have every segment move in small degrees of motion (similar to a chain on a bicycle- I know the mechanics are NOT exactly the same-rotation/lateral flexion) and you immobilize 2 or more segments, and you then put much more additional stress on the segments above and below the fusion. This leads to them failing faster than they would otherwise. IE; the patient that ends up getting more surgery every 2-3 years with more and more hardware put in. NOW, this is in a normal person who isn't swinging a golf club at 120 mph and hitting out of horrible lies and trying to compete as a professional athlete on a world stage. Bottom line is, the more he plays, the quicker his career will end. I believe him when he says he is trying to find balance. We actually have had discussions at work about how soon his fusion will fail.

Mayo Clinic?

 

If true, I'd say he has a serious decision on whether any more is "worth it" (only he can answer what's right for him). Is there a way to say you have approximately X swings since the fusion (+/- some error) and one could try to get as close to the tipping point as possible? Or, basically eventually something bad will happen; it could be tomorrow or 5 years from now?

[Ferguson]

"Issues" in one's personal life can sometimes "bleed over" to one's professional life. It boils down to how that person “chooses” to address the said issues. These “issues” can, in some cases, manifest as physical ailments resulting in fatigue, sluggishness and arthralgia. The difficulty is pinpointing the “root cause” and then determining a proper course of action. This aforementioned “course of action” should be that of one not only directed to increase physical condition but concurrently helps the “subject” to ease his/her thought processes as they relate to his relationships. The timeframe for a “recovery” could be months and is based on one’s ability to be patient as the “issues” are treated. “Forcing” change can results in setbacks and increase irritability of the subject person. Maintaining patience is paramount.

 

[Titleist_PT23]

Tiger is now "WD" on the leaderboard.

[LICC]

> @agolf1 said:

> Tiger is now "WD" on the leaderboard.

 

Says it is due to an oblique strain

[physasst]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @physasst said:

> > I practice in non-operative spine care at a world class medical facility. There are a few things to note. Cold weather will not work for him. Not when you have hardware in the spine. He will not contend or play well in cold, damp weather. Just isn't going to happen. The last 3 majors, Bethpage, Pebble, and Portrush were all colder and wetter. He needs to play in warmer conditions at this point. IE; the schedule change for the PGA really hosed him. Also, one of the primary complications of spinal fusion surgery, and one of the reasons we always try to avoid it is something called adjacent segment disease. The problems with fusions are, that you are essentially taking a multi-segmented device that is designed to have every segment move in small degrees of motion (similar to a chain on a bicycle- I know the mechanics are NOT exactly the same-rotation/lateral flexion) and you immobilize 2 or more segments, and you then put much more additional stress on the segments above and below the fusion. This leads to them failing faster than they would otherwise. IE; the patient that ends up getting more surgery every 2-3 years with more and more hardware put in. NOW, this is in a normal person who isn't swinging a golf club at 120 mph and hitting out of horrible lies and trying to compete as a professional athlete on a world stage. Bottom line is, the more he plays, the quicker his career will end. I believe him when he says he is trying to find balance. We actually have had discussions at work about how soon his fusion will fail.

> Mayo Clinic?

>

> If true, I'd say he has a serious decision on whether any more is "worth it" (only he can answer what's right for him). Is there a way to say you have approximately X swings since the fusion (+/- some error) and one could try to get as close to the tipping point as possible? Or, basically eventually something bad will happen; it could be tomorrow or 5 years from now?

 

Yes. On how much more he wants to golf and what is "worth it", only he can answer that. As far as predictive technology, we don't really have that besides to give general statistics. The most recent study (Okuda, 2018) showed symptomatic adjacent segment disease (S-ASD) rates of 6%, 14%, 31% at postoperative years 2, 5, and 10 years respectively. Keep in mind, this in older patients (average age 63 at time of initial surgery) who aren't competing in professional sports. Those numbers don't exist, because, as far as I know, Tiger is the first one to ever do this. However, I would hazard a guess that they are higher. Likely double. His surgeon is probably doing serial imaging. If he was my patient, I'd be getting xrays/MR every 3-6 months.

 

[bscinstnct]

> @physasst said:

> I practice in non-operative spine care at a world class medical facility. There are a few things to note. Cold weather will not work for him. Not when you have hardware in the spine. He will not contend or play well in cold, damp weather. Just isn't going to happen. The last 3 majors, Bethpage, Pebble, and Portrush were all colder and wetter. He needs to play in warmer conditions at this point. IE; the schedule change for the PGA really hosed him. Also, one of the primary complications of spinal fusion surgery, and one of the reasons we always try to avoid it is something called adjacent segment disease. The problems with fusions are, that you are essentially taking a multi-segmented device that is designed to have every segment move in small degrees of motion (similar to a chain on a bicycle- I know the mechanics are NOT exactly the same-rotation/lateral flexion) and you immobilize 2 or more segments, and you then put much more additional stress on the segments above and below the fusion. This leads to them failing faster than they would otherwise. IE; the patient that ends up getting more surgery every 2-3 years with more and more hardware put in. NOW, this is in a normal person who isn't swinging a golf club at 120 mph and hitting out of horrible lies and trying to compete as a professional athlete on a world stage. Bottom line is, the more he plays, the quicker his career will end. I believe him when he says he is trying to find balance. We actually have had discussions at work about how soon his fusion will fail.

 

Great insight, thanks. TW got a huge second chance. First, to lead a normal, somewhat healthy life. Second, to get a good crack at playing golf for a few years.

As you point out, the more he plays, the higher the likelihood the fusion fails more quickly.

He ignored the pain to win. Now that he won the Masters, his mind and body seem to be telling him, in unison, it's time to hang it up.

 

 

[Mrgreen36]

He gone.

[BeautifulNice]

I didn't think Tiger would be able to play post fusion. I was wrong, and like so many, ecstatic to see him win at Augusta. But something has changed since the Masters. Despite cutting way back on his schedule, he is still quite stiff. Doesn't carry himself the same way he did when he first returned to the tour. Now the new normal is not good days and bad days but stiff days and very stiff days which makes sense -- as noted above, fusion puts strain on the disc above the fusion site. Not optimistic about his chances to play a limited schedule going forward. I don't expect to see him play any more FedEx events or pick himself to play in the President's Cup. He's just broken down and not getting any better despite lots of time off. Not really sad about this -- he had a miraculous second chance, his kids saw him win a major again, he's a more relatable guy now than ever before, and he appears to be pain free. If he retires, it was a great year to go out on.

[mosesgolf]

He is getting old but old Tiger showed what he still has got 2019 Masters. IMO he still has a couple more majors in him albeit his best chance is at Augusta. In between we are going to see an old man come alive every April.

[wildcatden]

If he's done, 81-15 is an unbelievable career. So many moments. So many memories. I think Tiger is the GOAT over Jack. If he has to be #2 behind Jack, well, that's not the worst place to be either.

[Cincy_Ken]

> @wildcatden said:

> If he's done, 81-15 is an unbelievable career. So many moments. So many memories. I think Tiger is the GOAT over Jack. If he has to be #2 behind Jack, well, that's not the worst place to be either.

 

I think there's a legitimate case for Tiger based around peak greatness. 7/11 majors, 4 consecutive. The 99-08 ten year span is pretty ridiculous. I still probably take Jack because of the consistency and the crazy number of high finishes he had in his prime but if someone said Tiger is the best ever I wouldn't say they're wrong.

[North Butte]

If Tiger is, in fact, done at this point there's no legitimate argument to support him being GOAT. He didn't come close to beating Jack's records in majors and he came up just short of Snead's PGA Tour event win total.

 

Solid second place at this point and it's not even close but he hasn't (and almost certainly won't) catch Jack.

 

I also think (again, if he's truly done) that he will probably be able to sit back the rest of his life without anyone eclipsing his second-best GOAT credentials. Look at someone like Koepka and imagine how well he'd have to play for the next decade to even get within spitting distance of Tiger.

[wildcatden]

> @Cincy_Ken said:

> > @wildcatden said:

> > If he's done, 81-15 is an unbelievable career. So many moments. So many memories. I think Tiger is the GOAT over Jack. If he has to be #2 behind Jack, well, that's not the worst place to be either.

>

> I think there's a legitimate case for Tiger based around peak greatness. 7/11 majors, 4 consecutive. The 99-08 ten year span is pretty ridiculous. I still probably take Jack because of the consistency and the crazy number of high finishes he had in his prime but if someone said Tiger is the best ever I wouldn't say they're wrong.

 

 

Yep, it's actually quite easy to make a case for Tiger over Jack or Jack over Tiger. All the 2nd place finishes by Jack in majors...geez...he could have 25 major wins. The out of this world dominance by Tiger? Just incredible.

 

 

[ray9898]

LOL.....I guess we are back to the 'Tiger is done' threads.

 

That was heard daily on here last year....then he won the Tour Championship. Then it started back up in the winter.....then he won the Masters. I guess I shouldn't be surprised it is back again.

[bscinstnct]

> @"North Butte" said:

> If Tiger is, in fact, done at this point there's no legitimate argument to support him being GOAT. He didn't come close to beating Jack's records in majors and he came up just short of Snead's PGA Tour event win total.

>

> Solid second place at this point and it's not even close but he hasn't (and almost certainly won't) catch Jack.

>

> I also think (again, if he's truly done) that he will probably be able to sit back the rest of his life without anyone eclipsing his second-best GOAT credentials. Look at someone like Koepka and imagine how well he'd have to play for the next decade to even get within spitting distance of Tiger.

 

Yeah but