New World Handicap System

[davep043]

LOL, you both posted a link to the same website. Of course the information is there, and available for free. I imagine that the USGA and other Handicap Authorities would prefer not to release the entire package, as it is almost certain to be revised on a nearly continual basis as courses get rated, or re-rated. If you need to come to a central website and search individual courses, your information will be as current as it can be.

[Mudguard]

Yeah but this is the extreme minority. My brother is a professional. I have been as low as zero, and play off six now. I have beaten him off the stick perhaps a dozen times in thirty years. If we didn't use (my) handicap there is no contest.

Imagine being on the other end of the stick, playing of say fifteen vs someone who is scratch, how long do you want the education to last? Decades? Handicaps are a fundamental part of golf. As far as I'm concerned, if you have no handicap, or even a GHIN one, you aren't playing the same game as me.

[bladehunter]

Right. I get the flip side of that coin. I’m just saying what I see and think. I’ll give shots. So no. The 15 doesn’t need to lose every time .

 

I guess what what I see is birds of a feather flocking together. And when the flocks mix it’s usually a stableford or blind draw team match. Which evens it out.

handicaps with stroke play doesn’t bother me at all. But I refuse to play a net match play event anymore. You just can’t outrun the shots if it’s over 4. Not unless the other guy is truly awful. And what’s the point of that?

[Mudguard]

Net matchplay should make no difference. If player Alan plays player Bob and their handicaps are eight and twelve. Then Alan goes to zero, Bob to four and he gets one stroke on the four hardest holes. There should be no arbitrary number (like four strokes) that makes any difference. If you play off zero and play an eighteen, the odds are the lower handicap player will win.

Unless you have a fundamentally flawed handicap system where players can not belong to clubs, keep a handicap and can enter scores in unattested...

The first thing I think if I have to give a lot of strokes in a match is, I'm going to intimidate the higher handicap by hitting it long and straight off the first tee.

[Tocgolfer]

If I was playing against someone in a friendly match and they had a handicap I would give or get strokes on the appropriate holes but if it was serious match play then I would use the international match play index even though it may favour the one getting the strokes on some holes.

if you want to intimidate your opponent in match play hit the first few greens in regulation and start with birdie or easy par.

[bladehunter]

Assuming the second paragraph is sarcasm? Because that’s exactly the system we have. Lol

 

my experiences with net match play are very very bad. Once had a 10 handicap drop a net birdie eagle eagle on me , on hole 4-5-6. All I could do was laugh and try to get it over with. I was 4 down after 6.

I wont bore everyone with more anecdotal stories. But will sum them all up with this. In net match play where a guy is getting 5-10 or so shots from me , i find that you have no choice but to play Uber aggressive. Why ? Only way to win a hole is with a birdie or eagle. Par may halve some holes , but a bogey will lose a hole for certain. This aggressive play will usually net a few birdies. But. Also some bogeys and others. I’ve tried it both ways. And pars will only halve some holes. The 4-5 net birdies a round are the issue.

Now. Flip that to a match with two scratchish guys. Par will win some holes. You generally just have to survive until around hole 14 or so , unless you find someone who’s just on a hot putter.

 

I also find that net match play kills the other nuances of match play. When you’re standing in the fairway 10-20 yards from your competition and he has a shot in his pocket you no longer think “ middle of the green to put on some pressure “ you think “ I’ve got to stick this to try to halve the hole.

[b.helts]

vanity ‘caps are hard to play to.

I can’t remember the last time I got shots. I used to give quite a few. When I was playing a lot.

I‘D say, on the whole, I won more than I lost against my 3-12 handicap friends. But if I didn’t give strokes It’d be hard for me to find a game.

[Colin L]

If you can't ever beat someone you're giving 4 strokes to in a match, I suggest there is something wrong with your handicap or his.

[Mudguard]

It wasn't sarcasm, if someone is getting a lot of shots, then it's possible they can feel intimidated by the lower handicapper.

As for playing extra aggressively, I don't bother, not unless it's getting close to the end and it's make or break. You still have to play your own game (short of your opponent popping one OB or something like that). I don't see how net matches remove any nuances either. And if I'm giving someone ten shots they're often forty or fifty metres behind me. I don't think about their shot, they have strokes for a reason, they're inevitably going to show you why. It's not about par or birdies, it's about playing the hole one shot better than your opponent, or two if you're giving them a shot.

[Colin L]

And if I'm giving someone ten shots ......... they have strokes for a reason, they're inevitably going to show you why.

That sums it up very well.

[Newby]

In a net match, If the players caps are correct it should go to extra holes. If they aren't, the bagger should beat the vanity capper.

If you never beat a higher capper you are probably a vanity capper or everyone else is a bagger.

Which suggests your system has faults or no one plays by the system.

I wonder if that why the USGA are trying to encourage attested and pre-declared scores

[Roadking2003]

This is true. High cappers don't make many pars and rarely make a birdie. I'm a high single digit index and average just over 7 pars per round. So a 15 capper probably only makes two or three and those would rarely be on the most difficult holes.

[DaveLeeNC]

Just to be argumentative, honest scoring is WAY too variable to expect a tie among evenly matched (whether in absolute skill or the adjustment via honest HI) in any format. dave

[davep043]

This is my approach too, and I've certainly won my share of matches against both higher and lower handicaps. I've lost my share too. But @bladehunter has talked in other threads about the "Handicap Culture" at his club, and apparently sandbagging is the norm there, rather than the exception. In his case, its not so much a failure of the system as it is a failure of the individual humans who administer the system.
On the other hand, I know a number of low-handicap players who feel as he does, that they have no chance when they're giving up strokes. I think its often due to the attitude "I should never lose to THIS guy, I'm a better player". When the use of handicaps turns a rout into a nearly even match, the better player resents his lost advantage.

[bladehunter]

lol. Nah. I’ll just let you have that .

 

Conversation is still open , whenever you what to have it. Cheap shots really are making you look bad.

[Sawgrass]

If you truly believe you'll lose, you're very likely to lose.

[bladehunter]

appreciate the labels guys. I input scores. It outputs a handicap. If it’s vanity it’s the system. It’s not me. I posted 4 scores in the high 80s this year. So I’m not withholding bad rounds. Still had a scoring average of 74. 1.7 this moment as it’s poppedback up after 3 bad rounds in 60 days ( not playing much ).

 

 

I love how anytime this is brought up it’s supposed to work polar opposite of how I see it work. I’m not the only low single digit at my club. None of us win net match play. Guess it’s just a “ nest of vanity “. Lol. Wow.

[Imp]

I contacted them and got an interesting response. In short, it's not their data to give away; it belongs to the 59 regions/organizations that submit the course/slope data to USGA, that if I wanted it, I'd have to contact them.

Why do I want it? I'm a data geek. I like playing with numbers. What's the 3 hardest courses for bogey golfers? What's the hardest course(s) for scratch golfers? Which tees offer the best opportunity to score for a bogey golfer? I'd like to play those. Also, trivia and discussion amongst friends. I think the display of data on the USGA site can be greatly approved to allow some queries like that, to allow sorting of multiple columns, and not just "1 course at a time". Or, within X miles.

In RI, there are 222 mens tees spanning 54 courses that I could play from. Some of them being 9 hole courses. Would I play Sr tees? Not yet.

As a golfer in RI, I can get on most of the courses here (a few are exclusively private, but not without opportunity there either). I spent about a half hour, cut and pasted all the data for all RI courses in a spreadsheet, and I can now sort all the columns and data. Hardest course in RI is Newport CC (which will be the hole of the SR open this year, watch for me on TV as a marshal ;) ). That's a 75.4/135 (BR 100). Runner up is a public course, one of my favorite, Meadow Brook, 75.4/132 (BR 99.9).

 

:)

 

[bladehunter]

No problem with that criticism... lot of truth in it.

But one doesn’t get to those thoughts on his own. Orbh accident. You have to see negative results to get a negative mindset. No? So chicken or egg? Probably some of both.

[Shilgy]

The main way it can get in your head is to dwell on the extreme losses. The higher cap does generally have a larger spread in scoring.and if you catch them on an extremely good day it is near impossible to keep up. BUT...the perception seems to be that you dwell on those losses rather than those where you just wore the higher capped opponent out with pars.

I have always found the way to defeat higher capped opponents is the opposite of what you posted. Uber aggressive play, as you noted, will likely get you beat. I find that what works best is to par them to death. Knowing that you will not gift them any holes is difficult for them to handle.

[ThinkingPlus]

That is the crux of the matter. The high capper will win when both play well. The scratch player wins when both play poorly. Psychologically it feels less good to win when playing poorly than it does to win when playing well. Over time that becomes a very negative experience for the scratch player. Caveat: just my speculation on the psychology part.

[nsxguy]

My friend, sometimes I think you aren't really paying attention,,,,,,, to what YOU are saying.
You can't win a hole with a par ? LOL C'mon Dude, that guy's a 10. That's are 8 holes where he doesn't get a shot. You're scratch. You've already "won" some of those holes with a par. The way you might want to look at it is, you're already 2 or 3 UP with 18 to play before you hit your first shot.
We have selective memories, especially in this day and age. Do you see headlines ? Sure. And they're almost all negative. That's what we remember. While I can remember almost every shot from my best round ever 7 years ago the rounds that I remember the most are the excruciating losses, not the really good wins.
I daresay that's exactly how your memory works. And probably your other scratch buddies who "never win a net match" too. LMAO I'm betting if you had records of all those matches you'd find out the reality is you (and THEY) won somewhere around 50% of them - probably more. But no, you and your scratch buddies "never win". Sheesh.
But you also mention you're aggressive in these matches. Maybe that's a problem ? Why ?
TP brings up "psychology", a very interesting topic. Perhaps you're thinking "Shoot, I have a to give TEN shots ? How am I going to beat that ?". The again, he's probably thinking "This guy's scratch. How on Earth can I hang with him ?" LOL
When I'm in a match I try to be very patient, especially when I'm giving shots. I inevitably start off very conservatively, even more conscious of hitting "fairways and greens". The higher handicapper not only can't do that as well but they're often higher handicappers because they shoot for pins all the time.
I'll find myself, when I'm giving shots, 2 up after 5 holes FAR more often than 2 down. And once the higher 'capper starts pressing, he's usually done. That said, the status of the match usually determines how I play from about 5 onwards. Later than that if the match is close. If I'm trailing after the turn, perhaps that's the time I start pushing the gas pedal a bit - but until then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,@Mudguard is right "they have strokes for a reason, they're inevitably going to show you why"

[ThinkingPlus]

Another interesting bit of statistical match play information I would love to see is how do the win percentages change when either player has misrepresented their handicap. How many extra strokes does the bagger need to get to 75% or 80% win probability? Or how many strokes of vanity virtually guarantees a poser loss? Knowing this statistical info could give some insight into the handicapping anomalies frequently discussed here on the site.

[Halebopp]

Outside of Blade's club, a 10 handicap probably averages 7 pars or better per round with likely 3 net birdies or better. That's 6-7 GIRs, possibly getting up & down a couple of times but also three-putting at some point. Getting back-to-back net eagles might happen once in a season or twice if you play a lot. On a bad day a 10 makes 3 pars, on a very good day it's 3 birdies and 6 pars.

 

If I were a scratch golfer playing against a 10, I'd try my best to avoid bogeys. The ten is more than likely to implode at some point, especially if he/she feels the need to attack - use too much club off the tee and end up in the woods, go for the sucker hole location, hook the heck out of an approach shot, try to play too cute from a bunker etc. Mistakes that can lead to a double bogey or even worse. Hit the fairway, get the ball on the green and two putt for par, take the birdie if it comes.

 

The best thing for the scratch is that there's a very good chance the 10 won't even get to use all the handicap strokes if the match ends before the 18th.

[bladehunter]

Thanks @Shilgy @nsxguy and @ThinkingPlus All sounds very reasonable

I won’t comment and clutter the thread up anymore.

[Newby]

A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:

Matches won by lower handicap player

61% off 3/4 difference

55% off full difference

[hack2489]

 

Maybe the issue is your opponents handicap isn't correct? Plenty of sandbaggers out there!

[nsxguy]

Oh, noooooo. You didn't. LOL

[Hawkeye77]

I’m just hoping to come out on the other side of the dark period.

[hack2489]

Not sure if this has been discussed or raised anywhere on here ...

Here in Australia, there are 'country wide' competitions. Your official handicap score from whatever course you play is used to determine the daily, weekly and seasonal winners.

If we'll all be on a 'world wide handicap' system ... perhaps there will be 'worldwide competitions' using a similar approach?