Contradictory Shaft Flex Information?

[pinestreetgolf]

Hey Everyone,

 

Recently I was fitted and it was a good experience.  For the first time it was a "real" fitting on a grass range over multiple days.

 

The fitter fit me into Mavrik Irons with regular flex shafts.  Given I'm not slow off the tee (not fast, but not slow) I was pretty skeptical, but it worked out really well.

 

I found this article from Tom Wishon which seems both clever and correct -

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-practical-facts-about-spin-and-shaft-design/

 

I am finding that, once in a while, the driver I was fit into absolutely booms it.  However, most shots balloon into the air with way too much spin.  The irons work great, the stiffer woods not so much.

 

Then I spoke with a teaching pro i greatly respect (but not a clubfitter) who told me the most important thing is to have the same flex through the whole bag so all the shafts work the same.  Then I hear that all the companies have different definitions of "regular" and "stiff" and "extra stiff".

 

So, the questions are:

 

1. Is it an advantage / a truism to duplicate flex through the whole bag i.e. regular iron shafts should mean regular driver/3 wood shafts?

2. Is there any way to take a look at spin without a trackman?

3. If you hit a great drive one in ten times but spin it up into the stratosphere the other nine, is that a swing problem?

4. If its true the OEMs have different flex definitions, how are we supposed to tell what is what?

5. Assuming I can find a old Ping Project X 5.5 driver shaft, will it play like a Project X 5.5 iron shaft?

 

Basically, I'm trying to figure out why the move to light graphite and light flex in the irons is something that worked great and my fitter did, but he left me in a stiff driver shaft profile (Kuro Kage Dual Core X).

 

Driver swing speed is 108-111.  Fitter said my transition was "extremely smooth".  I'm not sure what that means, and he did not say it in a Barry White voice, so that was disappointing.

 

Any guidance here is helpful.   Its fine, but it feels weird to have super-stiff shafts everywhere but the irons.

Edited January 22, 2021 by pinestreetgolf

[SmashGolfBall]

Shaft flex has no standard measurement. The "stiff" flex from OEM A could mean "Regular" from OEM B. And the weight of the shaft, bending profile, stiffness on the tip and butts of the shaft all matter to how the shaft will perform for each individual swing and the launching condition that he/she would like to see.

 

Take Jim Furky's WITB for instance: https://jimfuryk.com/whats-in-the-bag   He got R flex for the irons, S for the hybrid, X for 3W and driver. 

 

Take whatever works for your swing and ignore what's printed on the sticker 🙂

[vmann]

1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

Hey Everyone,

 

Recently I was fitted and it was a good experience.  For the first time it was a "real" fitting on a grass range over multiple days.

 

The fitter fit me into Mavrik Irons with regular flex shafts.  Given I'm not slow off the tee (not fast, but not slow) I was pretty skeptical, but it worked out really well.

 

I found this article from Tom Wishon which seems both clever and correct -

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-practical-facts-about-spin-and-shaft-design/

 

I am finding that, once in a while, the driver I was fit into absolutely booms it.  However, most shots balloon into the air with way too much spin.  The irons work great, the stiffer woods not so much.

 

Then I spoke with a teaching pro i greatly respect (but not a clubfitter) who told me the most important thing is to have the same flex through the whole bag so all the shafts work the same.  Then I hear that all the companies have different definitions of "regular" and "stiff" and "extra stiff".

 

So, the questions are:

 

1. Is it an advantage / a truism to duplicate flex through the whole bag i.e. regular iron shafts should mean regular driver/3 wood shafts?

2. Is there any way to take a look at spin without a trackman?

3. If you hit a great drive one in ten times but spin it up into the stratosphere the other nine, is that a swing problem?

4. If its true the OEMs have different flex definitions, how are we supposed to tell what is what?

5. Assuming I can find a old Ping Project X 5.5 driver shaft, will it play like a Project X 5.5 iron shaft?

 

Basically, I'm trying to figure out why the move to light graphite and light flex in the irons is something that worked great and my fitter did, but he left me in a stiff driver shaft profile (Kuro Kage Dual Core X).

 

Driver swing speed is 108-111.  Fitter said my transition was "extremely smooth".  I'm not sure what that means, and he did not say it in a Barry White voice, so that was disappointing.

 

Any guidance here is helpful.   Its fine, but it feels weird to have super-stiff shafts everywhere but the irons.

The answer to question 3 is probably yes.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Lets sort the Driver first..as per above Q3  swing fault? Personally i have just loosened up after dec/early jan lots of golf...so my driver swing is my best for a few years.96ish smooth mph..the Ping Rapture, tfc919d works.Its time too Find your DriverShaft.eg D+ diamana

Tensei Av blue.

Your one shot is compressing the shaft well.

Start looking smoother easier too compress shafts.

[mahonie]

You might find this article helpful:

https://wishongolf.com/clubmakers-old/matching-golf-clubs-by-moi/

 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

So, the questions are:

 

1. Is it an advantage / a truism to duplicate flex through the whole bag i.e. regular iron shafts should mean regular driver/3 wood shafts?

2. Is there any way to take a look at spin without a trackman?

3. If you hit a great drive one in ten times but spin it up into the stratosphere the other nine, is that a swing problem?

4. If its true the OEMs have different flex definitions, how are we supposed to tell what is what?

5. Assuming I can find a old Ping Project X 5.5 driver shaft, will it play like a Project X 5.5 iron shaft?

 

Hmmmmmm,,,,,,, something smells fishy here.

 

You are generally so positive/assertive with your opinions and knowledge of pretty much all things golf.

 

And here you are asking what sounds suspiciously like, if not beginner level questions, questions that would seem to belie your actual knowledge.

 

So I'm not going to "bite" until I hear more from you.

 

I will "nibble" a little though.

 

1. No

 

2. Experienced observation. If the balls climbs higher and higher it's probably spinning too much. If the ball falls to earth it ain't spinning enough. Anywhere in between depends on your preference(s).

 

3. It's a swing problem OR an equipment problem. Impossible to say with limited info.

 

4. This question is really odd to me. I can't believe you don't know the manufacturers label the stiffness between the exact same models and that from 1 manufacturer to another their is no standard.

 

5. Huh ?

[GarretG]

3 hours ago, SmashGolfBall said:

Shaft flex has no standard measurement. The "stiff" flex from OEM A could mean "Regular" from OEM B. And the weight of the shaft, bending profile, stiffness on the tip and butts of the shaft all matter to how the shaft will perform for each individual swing and the launching condition that he/she would like to see.

 

Take Jim Furky's WITB for instance: https://jimfuryk.com/whats-in-the-bag   He got R flex for the irons, S for the hybrid, X for 3W and driver. 

 

Take whatever works for your swing and ignore what's printed on the sticker 🙂

This.

[pinestreetgolf]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Hmmmmmm,,,,,,, something smells fishy here.

 

You are generally so positive/assertive with your opinions and knowledge of pretty much all things golf.

 

And here you are asking what sounds suspiciously like, if not beginner level questions, questions that would seem to belie your actual knowledge.

 

So I'm not going to "bite" until I hear more from you.

 

I will "nibble" a little though.

 

1. No

 

2. Experienced observation. If the balls climbs higher and higher it's probably spinning too much. If the ball falls to earth it ain't spinning enough. Anywhere in between depends on your preference(s).

 

3. It's a swing problem OR an equipment problem. Impossible to say with limited info.

 

4. This question is really odd to me. I can't believe you don't know the manufacturers label the stiffness between the exact same models and that from 1 manufacturer to another their is no standard.

 

5. Huh ?

 

Appreciate the kind words, but confidence fluctuates over time.  I have a lot of wedge knowledge.  I find them interesting and work on them.  I also believe in my approach to playing the game, so a lot of my posts deal with that aspect of things (like the infamous "3 wood off the tee?" thread from before the new retool, featuring my sick MS Paint drawings).

 

So, yeah, I hear you.  That said, this fitting sent my head spinning.  I played j40s with x100s for a very, very long time.  I also played a G30 with the stock shaft.  It was only because of a friend's amazing results that I decided to take a referral to a fitter in the NOLA area (message me if interested in the name, I had a good time and he only charged $175/hour for him and his gear).

 

That fitting has made me question a lot of what I thought I knew.  After hitting a ton of different stuff and looking at numbers, I was fit into a very flexible and light iron shaft with GI heads.  I was extremely skeptical.  Like, *extremely skeptical*.  However, they flat out perform.  I'm really accurate, I love the sound and after a period of adjustment I even aim them well despite the offset.

 

However, I have had limited success with the driver shaft.  Its *much stiffer* and is still a Ping head.  Unlike the irons, I hit it worse than my old gamer, by quite a large margin except once in a while I just bust one *deep*.  Its frustrating and puzzling.

 

The reason I posted is because I was at the range two nights ago and I have a range buddy who is usually there every night when I'm there.  He used to be a touring pro.  Great player, I respect his opinion.  He played for a handful of years on the European Tour.  When I explained my issue to him, he responded that for him what he really likes is to have similar flexes throughout the bag, which is the exact opposite of what I was fit into.  That got me thinking about a more flexible driver shaft.  My old gamer was a TFC-419 X flex, but it wasn't anywhere close to *as* X flex as this one.

 

So, to summarize, my head is spinning a bit (no pun intended).  The fitting did wonders for my iron ball striking into the 5.5 shafts, but the driver I got fitted into seems to suck.  Then I hear the advice from the gentleman on the range to equalize my shafts throughout my bag (And cost isn't really an issue for me, I can just buy and try whatever).  So that got me thinking about how to get a driver shaft that plays like my iron shafts.

 

Obviously different "stiffs" are different.  What I was trying to ask is if they are different across same brand-names but different shaft types.  For example, a Project X 5.5 driver shaft versus a Project X 5.5 iron shaft, or a Stiff Fuji Blue Hybrid Shaft versus a Stiff Fuji Blue Driver Shaft.  Is it a better bet that those would be similar.

 

Then I made a somewhat incoherent and rambling post asking for help, and that brings us current.

 

 

 

[Stuart_G]

19 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

Hey Everyone,

 

Recently I was fitted and it was a good experience.  For the first time it was a "real" fitting on a grass range over multiple days.

 

The fitter fit me into Mavrik Irons with regular flex shafts.  Given I'm not slow off the tee (not fast, but not slow) I was pretty skeptical, but it worked out really well.

 

I found this article from Tom Wishon which seems both clever and correct -

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-practical-facts-about-spin-and-shaft-design/

 

I am finding that, once in a while, the driver I was fit into absolutely booms it.  However, most shots balloon into the air with way too much spin.  The irons work great, the stiffer woods not so much.

 

Then I spoke with a teaching pro i greatly respect (but not a clubfitter) who told me the most important thing is to have the same flex through the whole bag so all the shafts work the same.  Then I hear that all the companies have different definitions of "regular" and "stiff" and "extra stiff".

 

Can't speak to your pro but:

1) Tom is almost the father of modern club fitting methods.  His word easily out weighs almost anyone else.

2) Most pros don't even come close to understanding how little they know about equipment fitting.

 

 

 

Quote

So, the questions are:

 

1. Is it an advantage / a truism to duplicate flex through the whole bag i.e. regular iron shafts should mean regular driver/3 wood shafts?

 

Duplicate 'flex'?  no.  Duplicate the stiffness feel from the shaft? maybe.  Depends on the player.

Some players are very sensitive to the feel of the shaft loading and unloading and that feel being 'off' can result in variations in the swing.  Others can be oblivious to it and flex or stiffness can be very unimportant. And plenty are somewhere in between those two extremes.   Only way to find out where you sit in that spectrum is by trial and error (which is what a fitting really does).

 

In general, flex isn't very high up on the list of important club specs one is fit for.    Again it depends on the individual but typically for a driver it would be:

1. grip size

2. playing length

3. shaft weight

4 swing weight (head weight)

5. face angle

6. flex

7. lie angle

 

 

Quote

2. Is there any way to take a look at spin without a trackman?

 

Without a Trackman?  yes.  Without some form of a launch monitor?  no.   Although the ball flight can sometimes be used to judge extreme spin problems.

 

Quote

3. If you hit a great drive one in ten times but spin it up into the stratosphere the other nine, is that a swing problem?

 

Most likely but that doesn't mean equipment changes might not be able to help.   Inconsistent ball flight with a driver can frequently be a result of inconsistent face impact.  And equipment changes can sometimes help with that impact.

 

Quote

4. If its true the OEMs have different flex definitions, how are we supposed to tell what is what?

 

By testing the different shafts and seeing how it performs and feels when you swing it.

 

Quote

5. Assuming I can find a old Ping Project X 5.5 driver shaft, will it play like a Project X 5.5 iron shaft?

 

Hard to answer.   Trying to match iron and wood shafts is never really a good idea as the swings can vary quite a bit as well as the shaft designs.   Better to fit the shaft for irons and woods separately.

 

 

Quote

Basically, I'm trying to figure out why the move to light graphite and light flex in the irons is something that worked great and my fitter did, but he left me in a stiff driver shaft profile (Kuro Kage Dual Core X).

 

Hopefully because you got better results with that combination than any other alternative.   But just like there is no standard for flex, there is also no standard for the quality and expertise of people who call themselves 'fitters'.

 

Quote

Driver swing speed is 108-111.  Fitter said my transition was "extremely smooth".  I'm not sure what that means, and he did not say it in a Barry White voice, so that was disappointing.

 

In general, the smoother the transition, the loading of the shaft is more gradual and the wider range of shaft specs a player can handle well.   More aggressive transitions tend to need stiffer and/or heavier shafts.  But there are always exceptions to every generalization.  It always will come down to which shaft felt and performed the best for the player.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Stuart_G

[kiwii]

So the shafts the fitter suggested for you is project X 5.5? In my book those aren’t equivalent to the majority of  “Regular” flexes on the market. 5.5 in project x is closer to a “stiff” flex and 6.0 is stiff+. 
 

To answer your question: just use what works. Also what works during the short duration of your fitting might not work day after day. Only way to really know is to take the clubs out to the course and give it some time. 

[Red4282]

With all due respect that pro is full of it, at least in regards to that. You really should only think of flex as a feeling. Nothing more.   Get the feel right for your swing, your timing, and a consistent strike pattern. Static Weight plays probably a bigger or at least as big as flex. As far as you spinning the ball up, a couple of things would help to know. Where are you striking it? This is a must. This is number one factor to know and before we can dive in to the problem this has to be known. 2nd, if you hit on a trackman, it would be nice to see some numbers like spinloft, Or AOA and dynamic loft.

[tannyhoban]

It's likely you adjusted your swing to the lighter irons and that swing doesn't work with the Ping anymore.

 

It may be subtle, but it's there.

 

Matching everything up is as much an art as it is a science.

[ChipNRun]

On 1/22/2021 at 9:13 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

 

1. Is it an advantage / a truism to duplicate flex through the whole bag i.e. regular iron shafts should mean regular driver/3 wood shafts?

 

Disagreement on this going back to 1960s (when golf first captured me).

 

For years one camp said: If you're on the line for shaft flex, go with Stiff in irons (control) and Regular with woods (more distance).

 

Others say if you're an occasional golfer, stick with Regular throughout. 

 

What about driver shaft as a clue for other clubs? Driver flex can be a starting point, but it's not a guarantee to transfer as best for other club shafts.

 

I saw the back half of a fitting last summer. The player picked up his new driver, which had an 80-gram Tour Stiff shaft in it. But the follow-up iron fitting put him in heavier R-flex steel shafts.

 

The reason: He was simply a lot more aggressive swinging his driver than swinging his irons (power vs. tempo emphasis).

 

So, that's why we have Trackman and other launch monitors. You can see how different shafts influence ball flight for various categories of clubs.

 

On 1/22/2021 at 9:13 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

4. If its true the OEMs have different flex definitions, how are we supposed to tell what is what?

...that's why we have Trackman and other launch monitors.

[Bye]

Just to clarify, are you now using steel or graphite shafts in your irons? If they are steel, then I agree with the above post, they are more like stiff (stiffer than an S300).

 

Matching the shaft of your irons to driver is going to be tough with the different jobs that they do. Not to mention the different tip sizes.
 

The issue may be more to do with the bend profile of the shafts, the Ping stock shaft looks to be a mid to low kick point, where as your new shaft is mid to high. You may have had to change your delivery due to the way the shaft is loading. 
 

I have the same shaft in my driver and 3 wood. I tried it in a hybrid and I just went sideways. The crazy thing is the shaft probably should suit me best in the hybrid, but I just get on better with a higher launching version with that club.

 

it’s the cross over where facts meet feel, and for me, feel always wins.

 

If it was not an issue with your old driver, then I doubt that it is a technique problem. The best test for a club is always on the course, unfortunately it sometimes shows a fitting to be unsuccessful.
 

Your driver speed suggests that you are on the cusp of between X and stiff, so it may well mean you will need a different flex for certain clubs. Everyone is different so I wouldn’t worry about what anyone does shaft wise.

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

On 1/22/2021 at 7:13 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

Hey Everyone,

 

Recently I was fitted and it was a good experience.  For the first time it was a "real" fitting on a grass range over multiple days.

 

The fitter fit me into Mavrik Irons with regular flex shafts.  Given I'm not slow off the tee (not fast, but not slow) I was pretty skeptical, but it worked out really well.

 

I found this article from Tom Wishon which seems both clever and correct -

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/62891/the-practical-facts-about-spin-and-shaft-design/

 

I am finding that, once in a while, the driver I was fit into absolutely booms it.  However, most shots balloon into the air with way too much spin.  The irons work great, the stiffer woods not so much.

 

Then I spoke with a teaching pro i greatly respect (but not a clubfitter) who told me the most important thing is to have the same flex through the whole bag so all the shafts work the same.  Then I hear that all the companies have different definitions of "regular" and "stiff" and "extra stiff".

 

So, the questions are:

 

1. Is it an advantage / a truism to duplicate flex through the whole bag i.e. regular iron shafts should mean regular driver/3 wood shafts?

2. Is there any way to take a look at spin without a trackman?

3. If you hit a great drive one in ten times but spin it up into the stratosphere the other nine, is that a swing problem?

4. If its true the OEMs have different flex definitions, how are we supposed to tell what is what?

5. Assuming I can find a old Ping Project X 5.5 driver shaft, will it play like a Project X 5.5 iron shaft?

 

Basically, I'm trying to figure out why the move to light graphite and light flex in the irons is something that worked great and my fitter did, but he left me in a stiff driver shaft profile (Kuro Kage Dual Core X).

 

Driver swing speed is 108-111.  Fitter said my transition was "extremely smooth".  I'm not sure what that means, and he did not say it in a Barry White voice, so that was disappointing.

 

Any guidance here is helpful.   Its fine, but it feels weird to have super-stiff shafts everywhere but the irons.

1 - yes.  Shafts vary in weight, but flex is the same "Stiff" and SW is similar for 13 clubs.  Only one club LW is E0.  However, some people have 3 different flexes in the bag.  Others have X iron shafts and R in Driver.  All depends on how sensitive you are to your equipment.

2 - yes.  Though I have hit balls a LM, I have never paid any attention to the results, nothing like what's talked about on Golfwrx.  - I use my eyes and watch the ball behave on the green and though the air.  Too much or not enough spin can be identified.

3 - yes.  One time your setup was spot-on and you mechanics were on plane other times NOT so much.  I don't hit those strato balls but last weekend my mechanics were spot-on.  Playing a $$ game, on a difficult tee box, I decided to cut the dog-leg, covered some bunkers and ball reached a downhill, so I had 80yds left on a 390yd hole.  NO, I don't hit drives like that all the time, but get one per round.

4- It's just the way it is... If you lack experience, you must find people you trust and listen. 

5- Not likely.  Most likely PX shafts found in OEM club heads are what's called Made For with differing specs. 

 

Sounds like your iron swing is different from your driver swing.  NOT surprising, that's true with lots of people, including me.  Don't know my SS but my iron swing is far more aggressive than my swing when hitting driver or 4wd.  Smooth transition / tempo can mean you can hit a stronger flex, and maybe you do the opposite of me with irons, iron swing is more deliberate.   

 

Sounds like your iron swing is different from your driver swing.  NOT surprising, that's true with lots of people, including me.  Don't know my SS but my iron swing is far more aggressive than my swing when hitting driver or 4wd.  Smooth transition / tempo can mean you can hit a stronger flex, and maybe you do the opposite of me with irons, iron swing is more deliberate.   

Edited January 23, 2021 by Pepperturbo