"giving the mini tours a try"/the new dead money

[Ironman_32]

5 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

There are so many of these guys. They usually end up trying to be IG influnencers pitching CBD oil and off brand balls/clubs, and range finders. Shows like shot makers and holey moley are made for these 6 handicaps. I have a friend like this and I know his game but if I didn't id assume he was as good as he acts on IG. I've seen another girl who I have seen play that isn't very good but still does the low life move of go funding her followers into Q school entry fee where she goes to shoot in the 80s.

 

 

One guy I follow tried to set up a gofundme....looking for 30K to "help get me to the PGA tour", only donation was from his parents. 

[bcflyguy1]

39 minutes ago, Ironman_32 said:

One guy I follow tried to set up a gofundme....looking for 30K to "help get me to the PGA tour", only donation was from his parents. 

[naval2006]

Just out of curiosity, how much total expenses plus tournament fee for a mini tour event and how much for first prize?  

[Ironman_32]

7 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Just out of curiosity, how much total expenses plus tournament fee for a mini tour event and how much for first prize?  

all depends, lot of different levels of tours. Theres one in Florida called the OGA  (?) tour, its like $120 per tournament, pays a couple hundred for first. 

[Abh159]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:16 AM, MUNIGRIT said:

There are so many of these guys. They usually end up trying to be IG influnencers pitching CBD oil and off brand balls/clubs, and range finders. Shows like shot makers and holey moley are made for these 6 handicaps. I have a friend like this and I know his game but if I didn't id assume he was as good as he acts on IG. I've seen another girl who I have seen play that isn't very good but still does the low life move of go funding her followers into Q school entry fee where she goes to shoot in the 80s.

 

 

 

Haha my wife and I tune into Holey Moley just so we can watch Tessitore and Riggle make fun of the people for an hour. I find it hilarious that every other female contestant is a  "former pro golfer".

 

I hate to break it to them, but missing the cut in one Cactus Tour event 7 years ago doesn't make you a pro golfer....

[Abh159]

17 hours ago, naval2006 said:

Just out of curiosity, how much total expenses plus tournament fee for a mini tour event and how much for first prize?  

 

There are so many "mini tours" out there that it varies wildly from tour to tour. Not counting Korn Ferry, the other mini tours will average anywhere from $7-8k (for the Makenzie Tour) all the way down to >$1000 (Florida Golf Tour and etc.) for a victory. 

 

Basically you better win that week or else you're leaving in the negative after you factor in entry fees, lodging, and travel expenses. 

[Ironman_32]

31 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Haha my wife and I tune into Holey Moley just so we can watch Tessitore and Riggle make fun of the people for an hour. I find it hilarious that every other female contestant is a  "former pro golfer".

 

I hate to break it to them, but missing the cut in one Cactus Tour event 7 years ago doesn't make you a pro golfer....

To be fair, theres no rule that states what you have to label someone's career on a reality show. All depends on what the show wants to portray. So if you're an accountant by day but bartend on weekends, but you're on Big Brother or whatever, you're called a bartender. 

 

But I also agree most of them prob played two events on a low budget Arizona "pro" tour or something 

[tacklingdummy]

On 3/4/2021 at 1:02 PM, golfortennis said:

 

Well there is another thread that has a number of posters saying hard work is all it takes...

 

True, not everyone can be a top-pro by just working hard. You have to be physically gifted, experienced, very smart, have financial backing to play tournaments from a junior to the pro ranks, and work extremely hard. However, a lot of people can be experts at something by working hard, intelligently, and always trying to improve. However, it is very hard to get really good at anything, so you really have to work at it.  

Edited March 10, 2021 by tacklingdummy

[MUNIGRIT]

The one thing I know is if you tell the same stories over and over as an IG influencer you actually start to believe the made up stories. 

 

The guy I know does podcasts and talks like he was traveling around on the Korn Ferry and various larger mini tours when all he did was waste his money and others who he convinced he could make it when he had ZERO chance. 

[Ironman_32]

2 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

The one thing I know is if you tell the same stories over and over as an IG influencer you actually start to believe the made up stories. 

 

The guy I know does podcasts and talks like he was traveling around on the Korn Ferry and various larger mini tours when all he did was waste his money and others who he convinced he could make it when he had ZERO chance. 

One of "9-11 Kevin" guys

[MUNIGRIT]

1 hour ago, Ironman_32 said:

One of "9-11 Kevin" guys

Exactly. I have heard the guy I'm talking about on several podcasts and his story stays the same 90 percent of the time but as the years go on the mini tour stories get amped up by 100x. I know people that don't know him would think he was on the Korn Ferry tour but I'll always know him as the "pro" (who I played many rounds with) using the term loosely, went 5 rounds without a birdie with me. I'd guess that he is starting to believe his fish stories by now. 

[Creedo77]

On 3/8/2021 at 4:15 PM, naval2006 said:

Just out of curiosity, how much total expenses plus tournament fee for a mini tour event and how much for first prize?  

The bigger mini tours are anywhere from $500-$2000 buy ins 

 

SwingThought out of the southeast US is about $1500 and pays around $10k for a win

[golfortennis]

2 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

One of "9-11 Kevin" guys

 

What are you referring to?  First time I hear this reference.

[Ironman_32]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

What are you referring to?  First time I hear this reference.

"9-11 Kevin" is the actor Stephen Rannazzisi, he was in a show called "The League" and played a character named "Kevn". In real life, Stephen said he worked for Merrill Lynch and was in one of the World Trade Center towers, but was able to escape, which made him rethink his life and was the reason he pursued acting. Turns out, ML didn't have offices in the WTC and the guy had never worked for the company. I think thats the basic details, but he also (i think) stood behind this story for years; basically for no reason? (Side note: no basis for this but I listen to the podcast "How did this get made" which has some former guys who were in "The League" with this guy; everyone from that show seems pretty friendly with each other except this guy). 

 

Similar to the story about the non-Korn Ferry guy above telling fishing stories.

[Poor Posture]

FWIW, Club Pro Guy came up through the mini tours to play on the Mexican slate.  Looks like he's doing pretty dang good for himself.

[golfortennis]

14 minutes ago, Poor Posture said:

FWIW, Club Pro Guy came up through the mini tours to play on the Mexican slate.  Looks like he's doing pretty dang good for himself.

 

It's a mistake to underestimate the value making the Tecate Cup brings.  

[Obee]

On 3/3/2021 at 9:11 AM, exgolfpro said:

I used to be one of those guys.  I never played may events (2 Hooters tour events), but always thought, if I played my best golf, I could make some money.  But, I never played my best golf.  Posted a few 75's and knew I didn't have what it took.  The funny thing is, I am now 54 and still cant let go of the dream.  Every spring I consider getting back into tournament golf, but the truth is, i'm 10 shots from where i need to be to be competitive.  

What kind of tournament golf you talking now? High level Senior Am stuff?

[Obee]

I'll post here when I get some time tomorrow. I've spent the last 15 years playing with and surrounded by these guys. Have some stories for sure .... 

[bcflyguy1]

58 minutes ago, Obee said:

I'll post here when I get some time tomorrow. I've spent the last 15 years playing with and surrounded by these guys. Have some stories for sure .... 

[Obee]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:28 PM, bcflyguy1 said:

 

Oops. Totally forgot about this thread! LOLZ

 

[Obee]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:37 PM, phizzy30 said:

I have a friend and client of mine who plays on the Mackenzie tour.  He broke his back last year when he fell out of a chopper and had to have surgery.  He was back to playing after 10 weeks.  He's a +3 handicap atm.  He's not one of those guys that have to play for their lively hood.  He's a trust fund kid who happens to be a really good golfer.  He told me he is seriously considering retirement and moving to New Zealand next year once the pandemic is over.  Got another buddy who currently works for the SCGA who went to Q-School 4 times.  He's a +4 and has played on the mini tours for 3 years.  He actually makes more money doing what he does now and only plays in amateur tournaments.  He's played with Bryson and Xander when they were both amateurs. 

 

Kevin F? 🙂

[Obee]

I'm going to use kind of a strange analogy, bowling. I'm not much of a bowler (I don't really enjoy it), but like most "sportsmen," I have played and been around it enough to know the game. I've seen 300 games rolled and I've bowled with amateurs with 225 averages in league, etc. Weird analogy, I know, but stick with me on this....

 

I was fortunate enough from 2009 to 2018 to play at a course where I got to play many, many rounds with and around quite a few PGA Tour, Champions Tour, Korn Ferry Tour, and mini tour guys. I played with and around Rickie when he was top-5 in the world; Phil when he was top-20 in the world; Tom Pernice, Jr, when he was regularly making cuts on both the PGA Tour and the Champions at the same time. And I've played with several Web.com/KF Tour guys one who broke through, lost his big Tour card and came back and is now in line to get it again, and another two who are battling it out to make it through. And then too many mini tour guys to mention coming and going. 

 

In the winter, the course we play(ed) is very, very difficult. Adjusted rating of 76.5, slope probably 155+. Here's the thing: In those conditions, every one of them can shoot 64, 65, 66. And they all look exactly the same doing it. Just like anyone who rolls a 300 game looks. They look like machines. Like the game is easy. Like they were born to play it.

 

But like in bowling, just because you can roll a "perfect" 300 game -- or even an 850 series -- doesn't mean you are ready to play the game for a living. Just because you can shoot 64 on a Tour-level golf course when playing with/against Rickie, doesn't mean you are ready to play against the best 100 players in the world. Every week. With millions of dollars on the line. While traveling 35 to 40 weeks a year.

 

But ... it must be quite intoxicating to be able to do that. And it must certainly make you think you "have what it takes" if you can "just get a bit better at <fill in the blank for whatever couple/few "issues" the player has>"

 

Now the reality is that there are absolute, measurable differences in key areas in the games of the different "levels" of pros. Rickie, when he was top-5 in the world, simply had no weaknesses. He was ... amazing. All the other guys had parts of their games that were the equal of Rickie's, but they also all had significant weaknesses compared to a player like Rickie, and some even compared just to other decent pros.

 

But, again, they could all go shot-for-shot with Rickie when everything about their games was dialed in just perfectly. And that has to be as intoxicating as any drug known to man, so I'm not at all surprised that golfers chase the dream....

 

 

 

 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

I'm going to use kind of a strange analogy, bowling. I'm not much of a bowler (I don't really enjoy it), but like most "sportsmen," I have played and been around it enough to know the game. I've seen 300 games rolled and I've bowled with amateurs with 225 averages in league, etc. Weird analogy, I know, but stick with me on this....

 

I was fortunate enough from 2009 to 2018 to play at a course where I got to play many, many rounds with and around quite a few PGA Tour, Champions Tour, Korn Ferry Tour, and mini tour guys. I played with and around Rickie when he was top-5 in the world; Phil when he was top-20 in the world; Tom Pernice, Jr, when he was regularly making cuts on both the PGA Tour and the Champions at the same time. And I've played with several Web.com/KF Tour guys one who broke through, lost his big Tour card and came back and is now in line to get it again, and another two who are battling it out to make it through. And then too many mini tour guys to mention coming and going. 

 

In the winter, the course we play(ed) is very, very difficult. Adjusted rating of 76.5, slope probably 155+. Here's the thing: In those conditions, every one of them can shoot 64, 65, 66. And they all look exactly the same doing it. Just like anyone who rolls a 300 game looks. They look like machines. Like the game is easy. Like they were born to play it.

 

But like in bowling, just because you can roll a "perfect" 300 game -- or even an 850 series -- doesn't mean you are ready to play the game for a living. Just because you can shoot 64 on a Tour-level golf course when playing with/against Rickie, doesn't mean you are ready to play against the best 100 players in the world. Every week. With millions of dollars on the line. While traveling 35 to 40 weeks a year.

 

But ... it must be quite intoxicating to be able to do that. And it must certainly make you think you "have what it takes" if you can "just get a bit better at <fill in the blank for whatever couple/few "issues" the player has>"

 

Now the reality is that there are absolute, measurable differences in key areas in the games of the different "levels" of pros. Rickie, when he was top-5 in the world, simply had no weaknesses. He was ... amazing. All the other guys had parts of their games that were the equal of Rickie's, but they also all had significant weaknesses compared to a player like Rickie, and some even compared just to other decent pros.

 

But, again, they could all go shot-for-shot with Rickie when everything about their games was dialed in just perfectly. And that has to be as intoxicating as any drug known to man, so I'm not at all surprised that golfers chase the dream....

 

 

 

 

 

Well put. That makes a lot of sense. 

[Ironman_32]

12 hours ago, Obee said:

I'm going to use kind of a strange analogy, bowling. I'm not much of a bowler (I don't really enjoy it), but like most "sportsmen," I have played and been around it enough to know the game. I've seen 300 games rolled and I've bowled with amateurs with 225 averages in league, etc. Weird analogy, I know, but stick with me on this....

 

I was fortunate enough from 2009 to 2018 to play at a course where I got to play many, many rounds with and around quite a few PGA Tour, Champions Tour, Korn Ferry Tour, and mini tour guys. I played with and around Rickie when he was top-5 in the world; Phil when he was top-20 in the world; Tom Pernice, Jr, when he was regularly making cuts on both the PGA Tour and the Champions at the same time. And I've played with several Web.com/KF Tour guys one who broke through, lost his big Tour card and came back and is now in line to get it again, and another two who are battling it out to make it through. And then too many mini tour guys to mention coming and going. 

 

In the winter, the course we play(ed) is very, very difficult. Adjusted rating of 76.5, slope probably 155+. Here's the thing: In those conditions, every one of them can shoot 64, 65, 66. And they all look exactly the same doing it. Just like anyone who rolls a 300 game looks. They look like machines. Like the game is easy. Like they were born to play it.

 

But like in bowling, just because you can roll a "perfect" 300 game -- or even an 850 series -- doesn't mean you are ready to play the game for a living. Just because you can shoot 64 on a Tour-level golf course when playing with/against Rickie, doesn't mean you are ready to play against the best 100 players in the world. Every week. With millions of dollars on the line. While traveling 35 to 40 weeks a year.

 

But ... it must be quite intoxicating to be able to do that. And it must certainly make you think you "have what it takes" if you can "just get a bit better at <fill in the blank for whatever couple/few "issues" the player has>"

 

Now the reality is that there are absolute, measurable differences in key areas in the games of the different "levels" of pros. Rickie, when he was top-5 in the world, simply had no weaknesses. He was ... amazing. All the other guys had parts of their games that were the equal of Rickie's, but they also all had significant weaknesses compared to a player like Rickie, and some even compared just to other decent pros.

 

But, again, they could all go shot-for-shot with Rickie when everything about their games was dialed in just perfectly. And that has to be as intoxicating as any drug known to man, so I'm not at all surprised that golfers chase the dream....

 

 

 

 

I get what you're saying. To continue with the bowling analogy, I feel mini tours use to have guys who would bowl 400 in a series (no chance at all), but now there are guys who can bowl a 700 series (better, but prob not professional level). 

 

Its one thing to shoot some low to mid 60s on a tough set up, or hang with Rickie in terms of score, yet, its another to make basically no money playing the game for 3 years at the pro level. I'm not saying go play one mini tour round, if you don't shoot 65 quit; but I am saying you have to quesiton your skill after a couple of years/fairly long test where you're hanging up 75+ more than sub 69. But as stated above, it could just be guys trying to avoid real jobs or the real world. 

[MNGolfer03]

I would say the bowling analogy is a good one to use.  I have averaged 230-240+ the past few years in league and was very successful at the junior and local am level in ND and MN.  I get asked all the time why I am not on tour by friends and I tell them much like in pro golf, the pros play a different game then what the local house bowlers experience.  There are many delusional players who think because they have had 2 career 300's on a house shot and average 225 that they should be on the PBA.  

 

I have been fortunate enough to have competed against guys who have won on tour or have won at the elite AM national level and they have another gear that everyday players just dont have.  Like a golf pro who can turn a 75 into a 70, the pro bowlers turn 185 games into 220. My game is good and on a good day I can run with them but over the long run they are going to trounce me.    As was mentioned by other posters, averaging 220 doesnt make you ready for the tour grind.  Any weakness you have in your game becomes evident immediately and your chances of success, however minuscule is was to begin with, becomes next to impossible to overcome if you are expecting to compete. 

 

If you think golf has had an issue with equipment making the game easy, poll some old time bowlers about their thoughts on equipment advances.  The USBC (bowling's USGA) is having the same discussions golf is regarding "rolling back" the ball specs to make it less about what ball you have in your hand v. being able to be a shot maker.  This has contributed to why many think they can compete with the pros because the advances in ball tech as shrunk the gap between the pros and ams immensely. 

 

I am humbled every time I bowl at the USBC nationals and shoot 185-200 because it is just plain old tough.  You see lane conditions there you will NEVER see at a local tourney because they are too challenging and hurts the egos of those who are bowling on them.  Unlike golfers who want to play on the same course conditions as the pros, bowlers seem to be the opposite.  They want it easy so they can feel like a big shot but when everyone is shooting 220 it makes it seem less impressive.  

 

One other thing I think that may contribute to why the mini tours get the delusional crowd is the immense value of the purses that the PGA plays for.  If you think you got a shot to be a pro, and tell yourself hey i just need to win on a mini tour and springboard that success to the KFT and then PGA, i can maybe win 2.7 million at the Players like JT.  Bowling just doesn't play for that kind of money and for the level of effort it takes to be successful is part of the reason I work for a living and didnt try to make it professionally. what I was up against and figured I can make way more working than trying to grind out a living bowl.  Having a regular job also allows me way more time to golf.  If someone told me I had to pick between golf and bowling for the rest of my life, I pick golf 100% of the time.  

[rangersgoalie]

It’s a culture

kids learn the game, get pushed or push themselves to practice and try to qualify for whatever their “next” level is.

try to play junior events, try to gain AJGA points, try by other in bigger AJGA events, get in To a college program, Try to qualify for the team, try to qualify for the regionals/nationals/etc 

play qualifiers for national events 

turn pro

anr continue chasing the carrot.  Competitive golf is always about trying to qualify for the next thing, even on tour

 

so your talking about (some) people who have spent an enormous amount of time playing and competing and have a hard time letting go.

it happens everywhere.  Kids work their asses off through school, work on getting a degree that may not be enough to pay their student loans. 
 

assistant pros go to a “golf academy” and find out that minimum wage and hardly being allowed to teach means you can’t make a living. 
 

dreams die hard

Edited March 15, 2021 by rangersgoalie

[Ironman_32]

1 hour ago, rangersgoalie said:

It’s a culture

kids learn the game, get pushed or push themselves to practice and try to qualify for whatever their “next” level is.

try to play junior events, try to gain AJGA points, try by other in bigger AJGA events, get in To a college program, Try to qualify for the team, try to qualify for the regionals/nationals/etc 

play qualifiers for national events 

turn pro

anr continue chasing the carrot.  Competitive golf is always about trying to qualify for the next thing, even on tour

 

so your talking about (some) people who have spent an enormous amount of time playing and competing and have a hard time letting go.

it happens everywhere.  Kids work their asses off through school, work on getting a degree that may not be enough to pay their student loans. 
 

assistant pros go to a “golf academy” and find out that minimum wage and hardly being allowed to teach means you can’t make a living. 
 

dreams die hard

I get that. 

 

I think of other sports. Maybe the biggest difference between golf and other sports, (sans tennis?) is someone else tells you you're not good enough and thats it. Anyone can turn pro, but not everyone can play pro football. It just seems ironic to me that golfers don't know where they stand in the "pro hierarchy". Ill give you an example, on netflix they put out the show "last chance u", about players in junior college trying to get to D1 programs for football or basketball. Most of those players know where they stand in terms of SEC player, D1 A or double AA. Kind of like I said above, I don't think some WR at a JUCO is running a 4.2 forty at home but running a 4.8 forty at the combine. Basically, I guess I'm just somewhat surprised some of these golfers don't self reflect and say, I'm really good, just not good enough. Maybe that's hard to do, maybe they don't want to do it, or believe it. 

[golfortennis]

2 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

I get that. 

 

I think of other sports. Maybe the biggest difference between golf and other sports, (sans tennis?) is someone else tells you you're not good enough and thats it. Anyone can turn pro, but not everyone can play pro football. It just seems ironic to me that golfers don't know where they stand in the "pro hierarchy". Ill give you an example, on netflix they put out the show "last chance u", about players in junior college trying to get to D1 programs for football or basketball. Most of those players know where they stand in terms of SEC player, D1 A or double AA. Kind of like I said above, I don't think some WR at a JUCO is running a 4.2 forty at home but running a 4.8 forty at the combine. Basically, I guess I'm just somewhat surprised some of these golfers don't self reflect and say, I'm really good, just not good enough. Maybe that's hard to do, maybe they don't want to do it, or believe it. 

 

Even tennis has it in a way.  Laurie Canter, on the European was something of a tennis player growing up.  The story out there is he played against Andy Murray, but he played against his team.  Anyway, he says one of the big problems if you will, with tennis, is if you're not among the best under 12, under 14, you're not getting selected for things, etc.,  and so you get weeded out early on.  So I would agree golf is pretty unique in this regard.

 

 

[Ironman_32]

15 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Even tennis has it in a way.  Laurie Canter, on the European was something of a tennis player growing up.  The story out there is he played against Andy Murray, but he played against his team.  Anyway, he says one of the big problems if you will, with tennis, is if you're not among the best under 12, under 14, you're not getting selected for things, etc.,  and so you get weeded out early on.  So I would agree golf is pretty unique in this regard.

 

 

Interesting, that's like some kind of Malcolm Gladwell outliers stuff.

 

Thinking about it, on one hand I guess there is somewhat a lot of fringe guys for other sports, just trying to hang on for a chance. A Kurt Warner type guy or Taylor Heinicke type guy. On the other, theres so much talent in golf, I guess you just learn as you go. So even if you dont play well in AGJA or get selected for the Walker Cup, theres always a chance? Everybody is looking to be the next Jim Herman?

[MUNIGRIT]

I remember when I was in college and I worked a part time job at Grayhawk just to play golf. About every other week was the Gateway or Pepsi tour where all the mini tour guys would play go and get beat up by a late 40s guy named Jerry Smith(championstour now). My one friend who was delusional about his own skills would play in it. The winning score for 2 days was usually something like 62-64ish. My friend who used the term a pro loosely never shot below 74 when I played with him and would go out and get beat by 30 strokes. 

 

Now he is pitching off brand direct to consumer golf balls, golf gloves, hats, cigar holders and CBD oil on the IG with the rest of the wannabe touring pros even though they all talk like they have the game to make it just not the money/opportunity.

Edited March 16, 2021 by MUNIGRIT