"giving the mini tours a try"/the new dead money

[ezpz]

The most delusional thing I hear from people with no shot is along the lines of "I was next to these real pros at the range and was hitting it just as good". They can also keep this behaviour up for a long time by using their good rounds as fuel for their ambitions, any +4 hcp can shoot 66 anywhere sometimes but it's no use if your bad round is going to be a 79 lol. Same goes for top ams, unless you are some kind of travelling player with notable achievements youre only fooling yourself. This is also why I think college can be so great for amateur golfers because if they have any kind of self-reflection they will figure out by the time they are 21-24 that there's either a shot or none at all.

 

It's a shame because these guys who are never going to make it could have a great time as amateur players with a decent job and enjoy the game for the rest of their lives instead of getting burned out by chasing something that is out of their reach talent-wise and financialy.

[naval2006]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:48 PM, Abh159 said:

I think most people just have a really hard time giving it up. They may play well in one or two events and keep chasing that feeling because they think they can do it again. A lot of them also don't really have a backup plan so it's either keep trying to make it as a golfer or settle for an entry level job when all of your age peers are moving up in successful careers.

 

Several teammates I had in college (DI school) tried to make it as a pro. None of them succeeded and now they are all either working at somewhere like GolfTec or as an Assistant Coach at some DII school. Those of us that didn't try to go pro all now have successful and financially rewarding careers in business, medicine, law, etc. On the rare occasion we all are around each other again I can tell it's tough on those guys seeing the quality of life we have now compared to theirs.

 

I think the ones that truly chase a pro player career couldn't care less about a successful and financially rewarding jobs.  They just want to play GOLF.  For a living, even the cheapest living.  Many realize when they are in the daily grind that this is not for them.  But many others have that drive.  I know a couple that went so far as to go play satellite tours in the Middle East to pursue their dream.  

 

On 3/3/2021 at 2:11 PM, exgolfpro said:

I used to be one of those guys.  I never played may events (2 Hooters tour events), but always thought, if I played my best golf, I could make some money.  But, I never played my best golf.  Posted a few 75's and knew I didn't have what it took.  The funny thing is, I am now 54 and still cant let go of the dream.  Every spring I consider getting back into tournament golf, but the truth is, i'm 10 shots from where i need to be to be competitive.  

 

This is the itching I'm talking about, but in first person it sounds more realistic.

[dmecca2]

5 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Prior to my health issues, I Played regularly with and against a guy who along with Bob Jones is one of two male Ams to EVER Play this game in this country and win the same USGA event FOUR times. Oh, and for sh*ts & giggles, he grabbed a Partner and won his fifth USGA title(The inaugural US Amateur Four Ball). He also won two state Ams, The Sunnehanna Amateur, Played on THREE Walker Cups(2009, 2011 & 2013), was invited to FOUR Masters(2004, 2010, 2011 & 2013) along with qualifying for one US Open(2004), along with 6 exemptions to both the local PGA event, the Pennsylvania/84 Classic and the local Web.com event, the Mylan Classic.

 

He did not make a single cut in all of the Pro Tourneys in which he Played, his closest being the 2004 Masters, when he missed by one stroke after doubling the 36th hole.

 

He is easily one of the top-10 Amateurs EVER and his 5 USGA Titles is tied for the third most USGA Titles EVER, trailing only Bob Jones(9), Tiger(9) & Jack(8), as he's tied with Jerome Travers(5), Jay Sigel(5)  & Hale Irwin(5). 
 

If you count only the USGA Amateur events, then Nathan is tied for second with Sigel & Travers, trailing only Tiger with 6. 
 

I think that I've made my point that forget one of the best Ams in a state, he was over a decade plus, one of the finest Ams in this country. Forget not being able to make a living at this game, he couldn't make a friggin cut!!!

 

Oh, and the guys that tell ya that it was their short game, their putting, yada yada yada😂😂????

They're full of sh*t, lol!!

 

Seriously!!!

 

IF they weren't a legit +5 point something ANYWHERE that they planted the peg(forget a +5 at their "home" course😂😂They'd better be able to carry that cap ANYWHERE that they plant it!!), when they got "hot" and went "low," if their low wasn't 60-63, UNDER THE GUN(Tourney or serious money game) and I mean anywhere in this country, then they didn't stand a Prayer over the long haul. I'm not talkin about throwing a red round or two down. But they've gotta show up for four days, average 70 or better, and that's just so they don't embarrass themselves, that's not even making a living at it, as that ain't even gonna make the cut at either a Tour event, the Korn Ferry or in Canada😂😂

 

No one on this board knows the Canadian PGA Tour like @GolfingBro, Matthew Hansen, who got his card twice through qualifying. If you haven't read it, he basically kept a diary of his time in Canada and the tourneys that he Played out west(He's from Cali) and it's a must read if you're serious about being in a discussion with someone other than some guy who won a State Am Title or some former college AA, lol. Seriously, they're a nickel a dozen, maybe a nickel for 20, lololol

 

The only difference tween them and the guys makin a living is their putting, short game or they couldn't eliminate half the course???

 

GTFOH😂😂😂

 

@b.helts, who posted above, is one of the finest Mid Ams in the state of California and can tell ya what the difference is between those who Play for sh*ts giggles silver & crystal and those who Play for Pay.

 

Or someone who chased the dream and still can still throw a 62-64 down when he's firin on all cylinders, @isaacbm

 

Or someone who DID make a living on Tour, for eight years, and only a shoulder injury that has practically crippled him today  derailed his career, @rangersgoalie

Or @BIG STU, who Played the Florida minis when guys could make more money in the public course money games than they could on the Florida circuit and ANY one of those guys could throw a 61-63 down, and they starved, went nowhere and got on with their lives. 

I've posted a couple of times about getting shellacked by Mike Souchak, when he through a 29 down from the BoBs(Back of Box), which about 3500 and change at my club, which last cohosted the US Amateur with Oakmont in 2003, so from the back of the boxes, it's a b*tch. Me? I had an even par 35, lolol. He was 61 friggin years old and couldn't even make the cut at the time on the Champions Tour!! Yet he just out blinders on, went to work and he had inside of him the mentality of the Player that held the Tour Tourney record of 60 for decades and the Player who Played on Two Ryder Cups.

 

THAT is the difference tween those who HAVE versus those who HAVE NOT!!

 

They've done it under the gun, and while it may get further in the rear view with age, injuries and life gettin in the way, there are gonna be days when it's gonna click, when the mental movie cam is gonna replay those incredible shots, holes and rounds and the body is gonna cooperate, if only for a short period of time. 
 

However They've been there, done it and repeated it. At their level, and I asked Sam, Mike, my Tour Bud and many other guys what the difference was between those who did and those who didn't and almost to a man, they all said the same thing....
 

It's mental

 

M..E..N..T..A..L!!

 

A friggin Pro, and when I say "Pro," I'm talkin about a card carryin Tour Boy, not some guy scrapin it around Playin for his next rent payment, KNOWS that he can!!

 

All these guys that you all are talkin about???

 

They HOPE that they can.

 

Under the gun, that ain't nearly enough🤷🏼‍♂️
 

As always, just my .03 worth

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️
RP

 

I remember in the PA amateur back in 2015 at Scranton (2 minutes away from my house at the time), I played in the morning wave and did pretty well, an even par 71. After I was finished, I was able to walk over to the first tee and watch a power group they had set up with Nathan Smith, Chris Ault, and Brandon Matthews. What fun that was to watch them. Unfortunately, none of them played well that day, but their scores never ballooned. Even though I beat them in round 1, they all finished above me on the leaderboard. It was right around this time that I realized that I didn't have the day to day consistency to make money. 

[Ironman_32]

6 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

IF they weren't a legit +5 point something ANYWHERE that they planted the peg(forget a +5 at their "home" course😂😂They'd better be able to carry that cap ANYWHERE that they plant it!!), when they got "hot" and went "low," if their low wasn't 60-63, UNDER THE GUN(Tourney or serious money game) and I mean anywhere in this country, then they didn't stand a Prayer over the long haul. I'm not talkin about throwing a red round or two down. But they've gotta show up for four days, average 70 or better, and that's just so they don't embarrass themselves, that's not even making a living at it, as that ain't even gonna make the cut at either a Tour event, the Korn Ferry or in Canada😂😂

 

I think that's my take and where I have the problem. Guys I've been watching over the past year or so have through up way more rounds in the 72-78+ range than in the 66-71 range. Some guys only a couple of rounds in the 60s; at that point you would think you'd look around and go I have it, but not enough of it. Additionally, to me, its also not a one year test; you've played junior golf and college golf, if you we're playing highest level then is the idea they will just turn it on now? I guess? There are stories we hear about people persisting at different sports or careers and finally making it through, but there are way more we don't hear about people who just didn't have it. 

[RichieHunt]

I don't think the mini tours were ever about guys that couldn't break 80 just giving it a shot to say they did it.  It's pretty much always been this way...guys shoot 69 and don't even sniff qualifying or making money.   That's one of the things I learned when I started playing college golf and would play with a lot of mini tour players....it wasn't like I couldn't compete with them or even beat them, but the same could be said for countless other players.

 

I do think that aspiring Tour players tend to put too much emphasis on playing the mini-tours and they burn out their cash and their confidence.

 

 

 

 

RH

[golfortennis]

8 hours ago, tacklingdummy said:

 

 

Not quite sure what you are referring to when you say "training for the tour". To me,  the new format for q-school, looks better because it produces better players. The best of the best.  Before, you could have peaked and played well in one q-school tournament (grueling as it is) and make it to the PGA. However, some of the players did not do well once they got to the big show of the PGA. Now, all the players that make it from the Korn Ferry tour are very experience and prepared for the PGA. 

 

Yes, the Korn Ferry tour does have excellent veteran players that are PGA tour and even Major winners, but they still have to rise to the top. In the case of Sang Moon Bae, from my understanding he had a military exemption for a couple years on PGA tour but didn't produce enough to stay on the PGA, so he went down to the Korn Ferry tour. The real problem is there is way too many exceptional players trying to make the PGA with so few spots. 

 

Well, gee, imagine a guy a who for four straight seasons maintains tour status, wins twice, and then serves mandatory military service, and isn't able to keep playing at the same level right away.  

 

Actually this is a perfect example of why it's BS.  He wouldn't be any different had he had "the training"  for the tour. Dude was 26th on the list before Korea forced him back home.   Players aren't better because of that tour.  Lucas Glover was a 2019 "graduate."  What did he "learn" he didn't know from winning a US open before that? Dylan Fritelli cut his teeth on the sunshine and european tours.   He didn't become a good player from the KFT.  

 

I agree with you there are more players than spots.  Which is why it shouldn't be an even more closed shop.  

 

[golfortennis]

16 hours ago, Ironman_32 said:

True, but have to remember/realize, the tour itself needs stars, and people the viewers want to see. More people will tune in to watch Rickie Fowler shoot 4 over than for a no name to shoot 2 under. So in a way, you have create some kind of safety net. That's the hidden parts of winning, you get access to a bunch more tournaments with guaranteed prize money, making it easier for you to hang on. 

 

Kind of makes me thing of what your average PGA Tour pro would shoot if they played the mini's. I don't know if it would be a constant string of 65s,  but you have to think they would be able to handle the pressure and play good in big events, which would lead to the tour. 

 

Golf fans are funny that way, aren't they?  Every other sport they would be all in for an underdog, but golf....  not so much.

 

There is plenty of safety net already if you have a decent resume. At worst a sponsor's exemption gets those guys in.  It isn't so much that though, but that a guy loses opportunities.  For no reason other than what I stated before, a guy who could pull down close to a million for playing well one week, now has to slog through and hope to make $300k to get the opportunity for that million.  I'm not one of those people who say "how many more millions does a person need," but I do object when the deck is stacked in their favor.  

[golfortennis]

11 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

The tour is owned by the players.

 

And for you young people, you should have seen it before Gary McCord came up with the all-exempt tour idea. Except for a few elite, tour players had to Monday qualify all the time, living four to a room, hoping to have a hot day to get one of the coveted spots from players in the Monday hunt. The tour was a bunch of rag tag cowboys on a wagon train from city to city.

 

McCord got his tour card through Q-school in 1973, showed up for a tournament in LA and was told he still had to Monday qualify an hour away at one of the two sites hosting 180 people each. One guy shot 63 before Gary teed off. He was only 1 under after 9 hole, so he got in his car and left thinking that the system was crazy. Only 60 players were exempt back then and the rest of the players were, “...basically a bunch of Bedouins going from oasis to oasis, from Monday to Monday,” McCord said.

 

 

 

Yes, Deane Beman put it well:  Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson need guys to play against in order for them to be the stars they are.  And that is fine.  Nothing wrong with the exempt tour.  It's the constant closing of the door to enter that is the problem.  It was crazy back then, but it's swung a little too far the other way now.  The money alone gives comfort, why also toss in so many status protections?  

[PoolPond]

21 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

This is why I never bought the "training for the tour" BS when they changed the Q school process.  It was number one, to try and increase the value of sponsoring that tour, and two, had the side benefit of closing shop a little more.  Sang Moon Bae made over a million dollars coming out of q school.  He didn't need "training."  It just closes shop so guys can hang on longer.  

 

The goal to get the second tier tour (Nike, Buy.Com, Nationwide, Web.Com etc.) as the ticket to the PGA Tour has been in the works since 2000. There was a time when Nationwide took it over that 5 guys got their cards through the Nationwide Tour and 45 guys got it through Q School. Fairly quickly that went to 25 & 25. The eventual goal was always to have all 50 get it through the second tier tour and for Q school to get you on the second tier tour. The thinking was that Q school allowed the same old guys to continually lose their card after a year, have one good week at Q School only to go back for a year, play bad, go back to Q School for a week and start it all over again. That process didn't necessarily get a lot of new blood into the PGA Tour which it needs. The PGA wanted to do away with these bottom of the barrel guys who simply completed the cycle every year. They decided that if they are going to make it back on the Tour for a year, they'll really have to earn through competing for a year on the 2nd tier tour. All the older seasoned PGA guys moaned about it big time. So I would actually say that the goal of the KF Tour/50 cards/Q school is actually to open up shop a little more rather than close it.  It was already closed with only 5 out 50 cards being presented from it. The bottom of the barrel PGA guys could swoop in for a week and get their card right back leaving little room for new blood. 

[golfortennis]

20 minutes ago, PoolPond said:

The goal to get the second tier tour (Nike, Buy.Com, Nationwide, Web.Com etc.) as the ticket to the PGA Tour has been in the works since 2000. There was a time when Nationwide took it over that 5 guys got their cards through the Nationwide Tour and 45 guys got it through Q School. Fairly quickly that went to 25 & 25. The eventual goal was always to have all 50 get it through the second tier tour and for Q school to get you on the second tier tour. The thinking was that Q school allowed the same old guys to continually lose their card after a year, have one good week at Q School only to go back for a year, play bad, go back to Q School for a week and start it all over again. That process didn't necessarily get a lot of new blood into the PGA Tour which it needs. The PGA wanted to do away with these bottom of the barrel guys who simply completed the cycle every year. They decided that if they are going to make it back on the Tour for a year, they'll really have to earn through competing for a year on the 2nd tier tour. All the older seasoned PGA guys moaned about it big time. So I would actually say that the goal of the KF Tour/50 cards/Q school is actually to open up shop a little more rather than close it.  It was already closed with only 5 out 50 cards being presented from it. The bottom of the barrel PGA guys could swoop in for a week and get their card right back leaving little room for new blood. 

 

So instead of guys who come in from Q school and lose their card, come back and do it again, they come from the KFT, lose their card, do it all again.  

 

Most of these "bottom of the barrel" guys have status that allow them into tournaments anyway.  Look at the Puerto Rico tournament last week.  A huge number of those guys would fall into that category.  Any one of them wins, and your last sentence's "problem" is back in place.  Jhonattan Vegas, Grayson Murray, Ted Potter, Jr., could fit the description, and they all top tenned.  

Edited March 5, 2021 by golfortennis

[tacklingdummy]

4 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Well, gee, imagine a guy a who for four straight seasons maintains tour status, wins twice, and then serves mandatory military service, and isn't able to keep playing at the same level right away.  

 

Actually this is a perfect example of why it's BS.  He wouldn't be any different had he had "the training"  for the tour. Dude was 26th on the list before Korea forced him back home.   Players aren't better because of that tour.  Lucas Glover was a 2019 "graduate."  What did he "learn" he didn't know from winning a US open before that? Dylan Fritelli cut his teeth on the sunshine and european tours.   He didn't become a good player from the KFT.  

 

I agree with you there are more players than spots.  Which is why it shouldn't be an even more closed shop.  

 

 

 

I disagree. Sang Moon Bae had an full exemption on PGA tour after his military service, but wasn't able to keep his card. Anybody who took two years off would have an extremely difficult time getting their game back and competing. It was an very unfortunate situation for him, but not any of the pro tours fault. PGA tour handled it properly by giving him an exemption which is pretty much all they could have done. So, you are saying he should have had a longer exemption?

 

The Korn Ferry tour is not completely about learning, it is producing the best players that can play well for a year and consistently be at the top. Not players that are not consistently good. The learning aspect is just a description for players that haven't played on any tours. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by tacklingdummy

[Creedo77]

7 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

Well, gee, imagine a guy a who for four straight seasons maintains tour status, wins twice, and then serves mandatory military service, and isn't able to keep playing at the same level right away.  

 

Actually this is a perfect example of why it's BS.  He wouldn't be any different had he had "the training"  for the tour. Dude was 26th on the list before Korea forced him back home.   Players aren't better because of that tour.  Lucas Glover was a 2019 "graduate."  What did he "learn" he didn't know from winning a US open before that? Dylan Fritelli cut his teeth on the sunshine and european tours.   He didn't become a good player from the KFT.  

 

I agree with you there are more players than spots.  Which is why it shouldn't be an even more closed shop.  

 

Working on the KFT full time, the tour doesnt necessarily get players ready for PGA Tour golf because we don't play the same type of golf courses those guys do. There are maybe 4/5 weeks where the rough can be similar to what the PGA produces on a regular basis but for the most part its a bomb and gauge type game out there (aka the wedge.com tour). I do think though that it gets players "ready" in terms of understanding tournament golf mostly for those guys who come up from the China/Latin/Canadian tours. 

 

You can't really use Glover as an example because he only played the playoff events in 18 to get his card back. I'd say Max Homa is a guy who is a much better example, he's gone back/forth between both tours. He's lost his card before and had to play an entire season to get it back and has now 2 PGA Tour wins. I'm sure getting to the PGA Tour helped with his learning curve, but I'm sure he had to battle some demons every season he went back down to the KFT to get his card back. 

[Loki]

18 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

The tour is owned by the players.

 

 

Exactly, thanks for making my point. And for better or worse, they act like a union, and any group in that position does exactly that.

[BIG STU]

15 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Prior to my health issues, I Played regularly with and against a guy who along with Bob Jones is one of two male Ams to EVER Play this game in this country and win the same USGA event FOUR times. Oh, and for sh*ts & giggles, he grabbed a Partner and won his fifth USGA title(The inaugural US Amateur Four Ball). He also won two state Ams, The Sunnehanna Amateur, Played on THREE Walker Cups(2009, 2011 & 2013), was invited to FOUR Masters(2004, 2010, 2011 & 2013) along with qualifying for one US Open(2004), along with 6 exemptions to both the local PGA event, the Pennsylvania/84 Classic and the local Web.com event, the Mylan Classic.

 

He did not make a single cut in all of the Pro Tourneys in which he Played, his closest being the 2004 Masters, when he missed by one stroke after doubling the 36th hole.

 

He is easily one of the top-10 Amateurs EVER and his 5 USGA Titles is tied for the third most USGA Titles EVER, trailing only Bob Jones(9), Tiger(9) & Jack(8), as he's tied with Jerome Travers(5), Jay Sigel(5)  & Hale Irwin(5). 
 

If you count only the USGA Amateur events, then Nathan is tied for second with Sigel & Travers, trailing only Tiger with 6. 
 

I think that I've made my point that forget one of the best Ams in a state, he was over a decade plus, one of the finest Ams in this country. Forget not being able to make a living at this game, he couldn't make a friggin cut!!!

 

Oh, and the guys that tell ya that it was their short game, their putting, yada yada yada😂😂????

They're full of sh*t, lol!!

 

Seriously!!!

 

IF they weren't a legit +5 point something ANYWHERE that they planted the peg(forget a +5 at their "home" course😂😂They'd better be able to carry that cap ANYWHERE that they plant it!!), when they got "hot" and went "low," if their low wasn't 60-63, UNDER THE GUN(Tourney or serious money game) and I mean anywhere in this country, then they didn't stand a Prayer over the long haul. I'm not talkin about throwing a red round or two down. But they've gotta show up for four days, average 70 or better, and that's just so they don't embarrass themselves, that's not even making a living at it, as that ain't even gonna make the cut at either a Tour event, the Korn Ferry or in Canada😂😂

 

No one on this board knows the Canadian PGA Tour like @GolfingBro, Matthew Hansen, who got his card twice through qualifying. If you haven't read it, he basically kept a diary of his time in Canada and the tourneys that he Played out west(He's from Cali) and it's a must read if you're serious about being in a discussion with someone other than some guy who won a State Am Title or some former college AA, lol. Seriously, they're a nickel a dozen, maybe a nickel for 20, lololol

 

The only difference tween them and the guys makin a living is their putting, short game or they couldn't eliminate half the course???

 

GTFOH😂😂😂

 

@b.helts, who posted above, is one of the finest Mid Ams in the state of California and can tell ya what the difference is between those who Play for sh*ts giggles silver & crystal and those who Play for Pay.

 

Or someone who chased the dream and still can still throw a 62-64 down when he's firin on all cylinders, @isaacbm

 

Or someone who DID make a living on Tour, for eight years, and only a shoulder injury that has practically crippled him today  derailed his career, @rangersgoalie

Or @BIG STU, who Played the Florida minis when guys could make more money in the public course money games than they could on the Florida circuit and ANY one of those guys could throw a 61-63 down, and they starved, went nowhere and got on with their lives. 

I've posted a couple of times about getting shellacked by Mike Souchak, when he through a 29 down from the BoBs(Back of Box), which about 3500 and change at my club, which last cohosted the US Amateur with Oakmont in 2003, so from the back of the boxes, it's a b*tch. Me? I had an even par 35, lolol. He was 61 friggin years old and couldn't even make the cut at the time on the Champions Tour!! Yet he just out blinders on, went to work and he had inside of him the mentality of the Player that held the Tour Tourney record of 60 for decades and the Player who Played on Two Ryder Cups.

 

THAT is the difference tween those who HAVE versus those who HAVE NOT!!

 

They've done it under the gun, and while it may get further in the rear view with age, injuries and life gettin in the way, there are gonna be days when it's gonna click, when the mental movie cam is gonna replay those incredible shots, holes and rounds and the body is gonna cooperate, if only for a short period of time. 
 

However They've been there, done it and repeated it. At their level, and I asked Sam, Mike, my Tour Bud and many other guys what the difference was between those who did and those who didn't and almost to a man, they all said the same thing....
 

It's mental

 

M..E..N..T..A..L!!

 

A friggin Pro, and when I say "Pro," I'm talkin about a card carryin Tour Boy, not some guy scrapin it around Playin for his next rent payment, KNOWS that he can!!

 

All these guys that you all are talkin about???

 

They HOPE that they can.

 

Under the gun, that ain't nearly enough🤷🏼‍♂️
 

As always, just my .03 worth

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friends⛳️
RP

 

Yep can remember the days when I could make more money off of side bets and the skins pot than the tournament purse. In Florida you had all kinds of Bet sweaters out there. Sometimes they were betting on you and you did not even know it. You would darn near have someone riding around on every hole writing down scores. What was good was after the event some guy may come up that you did not know and shake your hand and leave a 50 or 100 in it. Those guys always "tipped" a player if he won them money. Here I won a big carryover skins pot with a hole out on the 18th which was a Par 6 hole. Holed out with a low cut 3 wood from 210 or so made a 3. Ended up with a 12 hole carry over and won more than the guy who won the event. LOL to be honest I hit that 3 wood skinny and it ran like stink lucky as heck. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Wonder how much of it is, "the courses I play on are crap but tour courses are perfect so Ill be X stokes better there"?

[Creedo77]

7 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Wonder how much of it is, "the courses I play on are crap but tour courses are perfect so Ill be X stokes better there"?

zero....tour courses are far from perfect, and I'm talking about those under the PGA Tour. Most weeks members are still playing on them the Sunday before the tournaments starts. 

[Gsea]

30 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Yep can remember the days when I could make more money off of side bets and the skins pot than the tournament purse. In Florida you had all kinds of Bet sweaters out there. Sometimes they were betting on you and you did not even know it. You would darn near have someone riding around on every hole writing down scores. What was good was after the event some guy may come up that you did not know and shake your hand and leave a 50 or 100 in it. Those guys always "tipped" a player if he won them money. Here I won a big carryover skins pot with a hole out on the 18th which was a Par 6 hole. Holed out with a low cut 3 wood from 210 or so made a 3. Ended up with a 12 hole carry over and won more than the guy who won the event. LOL to be honest I hit that 3 wood skinny and it ran like stink lucky as heck. 

Write a freaking book Stu please

Edited March 5, 2021 by Gsea

[rangersgoalie]

Nice to see you posting Richard!  Hope you are well! 
Shoulder is still wrecked so not much golf 

 

have a few things in the fire right now, so we should catch up!!

[ezpz]

8 hours ago, Creedo77 said:

zero....tour courses are far from perfect, and I'm talking about those under the PGA Tour. Most weeks members are still playing on them the Sunday before the tournaments starts. 

 

Nah this one works differently. On "lower" tours the courses are easier which in the minds of some pros puts less of a premium on course management which means their exceptional skillset comes through less on such a course, once they make it to the big time tour they will be able to outperform their competition based on their course management and precision. 

[Forged4ever]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:22 AM, RichieHunt said:

I don't think the mini tours were ever about guys that couldn't break 80 just giving it a shot to say they did it.  It's pretty much always been this way...guys shoot 69 and don't even sniff qualifying or making money.   That's one of the things I learned when I started playing college golf and would play with a lot of mini tour players....it wasn't like I couldn't compete with them or even beat them, but the same could be said for countless other players.

 

I do think that aspiring Tour players tend to put too much emphasis on playing the mini-tours and they burn out their cash and their confidence.

 

 

 

 

RH

Richie's last sentence, first paragraph, is soooooo true regarding Guys competing against, hangin with and for a round, tournament or a golf trip or two possibly even beating an Uber Elite Am or Tour Pro and in their mind, they think, "If I could just replicate this swing/stroke, shots & these scores, I'm THERE, I can make it" however they HAVE to think that way and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that thinking  because it's those visualizations of swings, strokes and shots that allow those of us that have Played at Plus to do so and to do so under pressure. It's so easy to sit here and look at someone who's been grindin, be it on the minis, Canadian PGA or the Korn Ferry and chirp, "when is he gonna get the picture that it's not in the cards for him," however even though it may not be, that individual has to wrap themselves in that "I'm one shot," one round" and/or "one tournament" from turning the corner mentality.
 

Or, say they are in a tournament and they may have made the cut on the line, 8-10 back  after 36, however after 54 holes, they're 14-15 strokes back and teein off Sunday at sunrise, lol. So, even though it's a professional tourney round, for the Player it's a sh*ts 'n giggles round cuz seriously, WITF are they Playin for?? To move up from a T68 to inside the Top-30? So they're relaxed, their  mind is clutter and noise free and they're actually enjoying themselves for the first time all week. They go out and pop a 62-63, move up the board to inside the Top-20 and they're thinkin "Jesus, why can't I start off with a 62-63, take the pressure off on Friday and position myself for the weekend." They usually do not stop and think of their mindset when they shot that 62-63. It had very little to NOTHING to do with swings, strokes and shots, cuz what, did their swing/stroke change before that much from that 71-72 on Thursday to that 8-10 stroke swing on Sunday????

 

Hardly😑

 

It's their mindset that separates the Champions from the pack and the pack from the "dream chasers," NOT their swings.

 

The next time you're at a Tour Tourney, stop down at the Practice line, walk down to the far left, stand behind the first Player on the line, watch him swing and hit a few, and then just walk to the next Player, do the same and just do that all the way down the line from left to right to the last Player.

 

What did Ya just see?

 

Probably 30-35 of THE most beautiful swings on earth!!

 

That being said, approximately one half of the Guys/Gals that you just watched are gonna be slammin trunks on Friday afternoon/evening!!

 

What happened between the Practice line and the first tee, did they "lose" their swings???

 

Hardly, lol. It's the 4-5" track between their ears that separated them from those that would Play the weekend.

 

Another thing is that it is very easy to be a realist from the gallery, bar stool or recliner, especially if one has never Played at Plus and understands just how critical that the mental game in general and visualization/imaging in particular is to a Player not only surviving in the crucible, but thriving within it. 98%+ cannot understand the mind set that it takes to Play at Plus under the gun, much less having the ability to shoot 30-50%+ below your handicap under the gun on Sunday afternoon. H*ll, lil Rickie had the lowest cap on Tour through June of last year with a +8.5 and he didn't win a single event during that time.

The reason???

 

The average winner Palyed to a +8.9 for the week with their lowest round being at. +9.2, almost double the average Tour Boy handicap. The thing is that every single card carrying member has scored at that level, they all just haven't done it in a PGA event or on a Sunday afternoon🤷🏼‍♂️. 
 

The other thing that I haven't heard anyone mention, though if I missed it, apologies, and that is that along with focus, discipline and balls, it takes some LUCK, to Play one's best at the right time, at the right place and in the right event. As an old ball(🏈) coach told our freshman team, luck is nothing more than the intersection point of preparedness & performance. The mediocre and the dreamers don't get "lucky," at least not at  the right time, the right place under the gun.

 

Bottom line, the very single mindedness and focus that got the individuals that are being spoken of in this thread are the same traits that sometimes prevent them from seeing the writing on the wall. 
 

Every one of those guys thinks that they could be the next Tommy Two Gloves, who, FWIW, recently finished T68 in the Puerto Rico Open🇵🇷at Even par, NINETEEN shots short of the winner, Brandon Grace or on a larger scale, John Daly. A lot of variables have to come together for the vast vast majority who "make it," to have everything fall into place.

 

Every guy that I mentioned in my last post could tell you myriad stories of if the ball had bounced this way instead of that, or they had chosen one more club, or one less club or stepped outa the box when their mental image was hazy, and these guys were at various times in their lives the very best that you would find not carryin a Tour Card, cept for Patrick, @rangersgoalie, who carried a Tour card for almost a decade and can speak of luck, both good and bad, on a whooooole nother level form those who hadn't been there, done that. 
 

When one has dedicated their life to the game with almost every dream that they had from childhood on was strolling up 18 on Sunday afternoon soaking in the roars of the gallery as they capture their first Major, with many more to come, combined with all of the blood sweat and tears, not to mention the emotional roller coaster of the highs and lows of competitive golf, to have to all of a sudden admit to oneself what they may or may not have known deep down, to paraphrase Chuck Noll's great quote, "Golf simply prepared them for their life's work." 
 

It's very very difficult to switch from the focus, discipline and mindset of a Player, right in the middle of everything, where most have been for years, if not decades, to that of a pragmatic objective observer to accept that their journey has ended and this is as far as they're gonna go. 
 

Jesus, me and my novellas😜🤪

 

Stay Well Gals & Genta👊
RP

Edited May 24, 2021 by Forged4ever

[Ironman_32]

2 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Richie's last sentence, first paragraph, is soooooo true regarding Guys competing against, hangin with and for a round, tournament or a golf trip or two possibly even beating an Uber Elite Am or Tour Pro and in their mind, they think, "If I could just replicate this swing/stroke, shots & these scores, I'm THERE, I can make it" however they HAVE to think that way and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that thinking  because it's those visualizations of swings, strokes and shots that allow those of us that have Played at Plus to do so and to do so under pressure. It's so easy to sit here and look at someone who's been grindin, be it on the minis, Canadian PGA or the Korn Ferry and chirp, "when is he gonna get the picture that it's not in the cards for him," however even though it may not be, that individual has to wrap themselves in that "I'm one shot," one round" and/or "one tournament" from turning the corner mentality.
 

Or, say they are in a tournament and they may have made the cut on the line, 8-10 back  after 36, however after 54 holes, they're 14-15 strokes back and teein off Sunday at sunrise, lol. So, even though it's a professional tourney round, for the Player it's a sh*ts 'n giggles round cuz seriously, WITF are they Playin for?? To move up from a T68 to inside the Top-30? So they're relaxed, their  mind is clutter and noise free and they're actually enjoying themselves for the first time all week. They go out and pop a 62-63, move up the board to inside the Top-20 and they're thinkin "Jesus, why can't I start off with a 62-63, take the pressure off on Friday and position myself for the weekend." They usually do not stop and think of their mindset when they shot that 62-63. It had very little to NOTHING to do with swings, strokes and shots, cuz what, did their swing/strike change before that much from that 71-72 on Thursday to that 8-10 stroke swing on Sunday????

 

Hardly😑

 

It's their mindset that separates the Champions from the pack and the pack from the "dream chasers," NOT their swings.

 

The next time you're at a Tour Tourney, stop down at the Practice line, walk down to the far left, stand behind the first Player on the line, watch him swing and hit a few, and then just walk to the next Player, do the same and just do that all the way down the line from left to right to the last Player.

 

What did Ya just see?

 

Probably 30-35 of THE most beautiful swings on earth!!

 

That being said, approximately one half of the Guys/Gals that you just watched are gonna be slammin trunks on Friday afternoon/evening!!

 

What happened between the Practice line and the first tee, did they "lose" their swings???

 

Hardly, lol. It's the 4-5" track between their ears that separated them from those that would Play the weekend.

 

Another thing is that it is very easy to be a realist from the gallery, bar stool or recliner, especially if one has never Played at Plus and understands just how critical that the mental game in general and visualization in particular is to a Player not only surviving in the crucible, but thriving within it. 98%+ cannot understand the mind set that it takes to Play at Plus under the gun, much less having the ability to shoot 30-50%+ below your handicap under the gun on Sunday afternoon. H*ll, lil Rickie had the lowest cap on Tour through June of last year with a +8.5 and he didn't win a single event during that time.

The reason???

 

The average winner Palyed to a +8.9 for the week with their lowest round being at. +9.2, almost double the average Tour Boy handicap. The thing is that every single card carrying member has scored at that level, they all just haven't done it in a PGA event or on a Sunday afternoon🤷🏼‍♂️. 
 

The other thing that I haven't heard anyone mention, though if I missed it, apologies, and that is that along with focus, discipline and balls, it takes some LUCK, to Play one's best at the right time, at the right place and in the right event. As an old football(🏈) coach told our freshman team, luck is nothing more than the intersection point of preparedness & performance. The mediocre and the dreamers don't get "lucky," at least not at  the right time, the right place under the gun.

 

Bottom line, the very single mindedness and focus that got the individuals that are being spoken of in this thread are the same traits that sometimes prevent them from seeing the writing on the wall. 
 

Every one of those guys thinks that they could be the next Tommy Two Gloves, who, FWIW, recently finished T68 in the Puerto Rico Open🇵🇷at Even par, NINETEEN shots short of the winner, Brandon Grace or on a larger scale, John Daly. A lot of variables have to come together for the vast vast majority who "make it," to have everything fall into place.

 

Every guy that I mentioned in my last post could tell you myriad stories of if the ball had bounced this way instead of that, or they had chosen one more club, or one less club or stepped outa the box when their mental image was hazy, and these guys were at various times in their lives the very best that you would find not carryin a Tour Card, cept for Patrick, @rangersgoalie, who carried a Tour card for almost a decade and can speak of luck, both good and bad, on a whooooole nother level form those who hadn't been there, done that. 
 

When one has dedicated their life to the game with almost every dream that they had from childhood on was strolling up 18 on Sunday afternoon soaking in the roars of the gallery as they capture their first Major, with many more to come, combined with all of the blood sweat and tears, not to mention the emotional roller coaster of the highs and lows of competitive golf, to have to all of a sudden admit to oneself what they may or may not have known deep down, to paraphrase Chuck Noll's great quote, "Golf simply prepared them for their life's work." 
 

It's very very difficult to switch from the focus, discipline and mindset of a Player, right in the middle of everything, where most have been for years, if not decades, to that of a pragmatic objective observer to accept that their journey has ended and this is as far as they're gonna go. 
 

Jesus, me and my novellas😜🤪

 

Stay Well Gals & Genta👊
RP

I get what you're saying. It's kind of like in Moneyball how they said Billy Beane had all the skills to be an MLB star and Lenny Dyesktra should have quit in little league, yet Dyesktra (sic) made it to the MLB because he was so confident. 

 

And I get what everyone is saying too, at some point, like if you're 35, do you quit to do what? Or if you have so much confidence you just keep going, even if you haven't "made it" yet. I also get its way different when the "lights go on". I guess I'm just trying to rationale that in my  head. For example, one of the guys I follow, looks to be practicing on IG all the time, playing in tourneys, but isn't really winning or placing high in events. At that point I guess you just keep thinking get better?

[Forged4ever]

Look, I understand that not everyone is gonna be into the history of the game, the various Players, etc., however It's amazing to me how total bullsh*t can get get posted as fact on this board😂😂

 

"I believe Esteban never made it past the Nationwide tour until he turned 50" 

 

WTF😂😂😂???

 

Seriously.....

 

WTF😂😂😂???

 

Maddie knows Esteban and has Played with him numerous times including in two of his Charity events and spent time with him(I have never met the man) however while she posts here and there on the board, due to her club's social media P&P's, of which WRX was specifically named😂😂🤙, one of those restrictions prevents her from commenting on Esteban, so you get the *sshole, moi😜🤪

 

First off, Esteban secured his first first PGA Tour card at the age of THIRTY-TWO friggin years old(1994), almost two decades shy of his 50th, lol. He then went on a six year run where he kept his card from the ages of 36-42yo(1998-2004). He also won his National Open, the 2000 Mexican Open, during this period. Yes, on his "off" years he Played the Korn Ferry Tour(at various times, the Hogan, Nike, Buy.com, Nationwide & Web.com), where he gained his first American Tour Victory, the then Nationwide Tour 2005 Lake Erie Charity Classic.

 

In 2013, Esteban hit the Champions Tour at full speed, claiming  his first Tour Victory, the Insperity Championship in the spring and them winning another Championship in 2013, the Montreal Classic along with subsequent Victories in the Nature Valley First Tee Open at the Iconic Pebble Beach in 2015 and the 2016 Allianz Championship, along with 19 Top-10's to date.

Esteban is a National Hero and has represented Mexico🇲🇽 six times in the World Cup🏆. His 20+ years of splitting time between the Korn Ferry and the Tour earned him just shy of $4 million, plus another $3+ million in his 8+ years on the Champions Tour, and sponsorship dollars are approximately $2.5M+, so as was accurately stated, he's around $10M+ in total career earnings/compensation.  
 

In his 27+ year career, Esteban has Played in over SEVEN HUNDRED & TEN Tour sponsored events!!!

 

Not Minis....

 

Not Open State Tourneys....

 

Not Q's...

 

Over SEVEN HUNDRED & TEN TOUR SPONSORED TOURNAMENTS!!!

 

If you're gonna pick a dream chaser, while ya might call Esteban a "journeyman," I(and Madison😉) think that there are far far more appropriately categorized Players out there chasin the dream than Esteban, lolol🤙
 

As always, just my .03 worth, though in full disclosure, if Maddie didn't blow up my phone with that Esteban Toledo, 50yo PGA rookie(he'd actually won just shy of $4,000,000 by age 50yo), yada yada yada stuff, I would t have responded, lol

 

Have a Great Week Gals & Gents👊
RP

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Forged4ever

[golfortennis]

There was a book written about Toledo's life, no?

[Forged4ever]

42 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

There was a book written about Toledo's life, no?

Yah, and it's a great read. I'm not into the 200+ page sappy feel good stuff or a narcissistic auto/biographies and initially thought that this was that kind of read however Madison read it and thought that I'd enjoy it. She was correct and D'Antonio did a great job and it'd be one of my top-5 golf books, ESPECIALLY if I was someone trying to get to The Show🤙
 

Have a Great Week👊
RP

Edited March 7, 2021 by Forged4ever

[mocokid]

8 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Look, I understand that not everyone is gonna be into the history of the game, the various Players, etc., however It's amazing to me how total bullsh*t can get get posted as fact on this board😂😂

 

"I believe Esteban never made it past the Nationwide tour until he turned 50" 

 

WTF😂😂😂???

 

Seriously.....

 

WTF😂😂😂???

 

Maddie knows Esteban and has Played with him numerous times including in two of his Charity events and spent time with him(I have never met the man) however while she posts here and there on the board, due to her club's social media P&P's, of which WRX was specifically named😂😂🤙, one of those restrictions prevents her from commenting on Esteban, so you get the *sshole, moi😜🤪

 

First off, Esteban secured his first first PGA Tour card at the age of THIRTY-TWO friggin years old(1994), almost two decades shy of his 50th, lol. He then went on a six year run where he kept his card from the ages of 36-42yo(1998-2004). He also won his National Open, the 2000 Mexican Open, during this period. Yes, on his "off" years he Played the Korn Ferry Tour(at various times, the Hogan, Nike, Buy.com, Nationwide & Web.com), where he gained his first American Tour Victory, the then Nationwide Tour 2005 Lake Erie Charity Classic.

 

In 2013, Esteban hit the Champions Tour at full speed, claiming  his first Tour Victory, the Insperity Championship in the spring and them winning another Championship in 2013, the Montreal Classic along with subsequent Victories in the Nature Valley First Tee Open at the Iconic Pebble Beach in 2015 and the 2016 Allianz Championship, along with 19 Top-10's to date.

Esteban is a National Hero and has represented Mexico🇲🇽 six times in the World Cup🏆. His 20+ years of splitting time between the Korn Ferry and the Tour earned him just shy of $4 million, plus another $3+ million in his 8+ years on the Champions Tour, and sponsorship dollars are approximately $2.5M+, so as was accurately stated, he's around $10M+ in total career earnings/compensation.  
 

In his 27+ year career, Esteban has Played in over SEVEN HUNDRED & TEN Tour sponsored events!!!

 

Not Minis....

 

Not Open State Tourneys....

 

Not Q's...

 

Over SEVEN HUNDRED & TEN TOUR SPONSORED TOURNAMENTS!!!

 

If you're gonna pick a dream chaser, while ya might call Esteban a "journeyman," I(and Madison😉) think that there are far far more appropriately categorized Players out there chasin the dream than Esteban, lolol🤙
 

As always, just my .03 worth, though in full disclosure, if Maddie didn't blow up my phone with that Esteban Toledo, 50yo PGA rookie(he'd actually won just shy of $4,000,000 by age 50yo), yada yada yada stuff, I would t have responded, lol

 

Have a Great Week Gals & Gents👊
RP

 

 

 

 

 

Has anyone mentioned Allan doyle yet ?,  also a late starter.  

[mocokid]

6 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Yah, and it's a great read. I'm not into the 200+ page sappy feel good stuff or a narcissistic auto/biographies and initially thought that this was that kind of read however Madison read it and thought that I'd enjoy it. She was correct and D'Antonio did a great job and it'd be one of my top-5 golf books, ESPECIALLY if I was someone trying to get to The Show🤙
 

Have a Great Week👊
RP

Great book, well done. 

[isaacbm]

Allen Doyle was a late starter in professional golf but 

You could certainly make an argument that he’d been around the block a little bit before then... 

Amateur wins (23)Edit

• 1978 Georgia Amateur^[16]
• 1979 Georgia Amateur^[16]
• 1982 Georgia Amateur^[16]
• 1984 Georgia Mid-Amateur^[17]
• 1986 Georgia Mid-Amateur^[17]
• 1987 Georgia Amateur,^[16] Georgia Mid-Amateur^[17]
• 1988 Georgia Amateur,^[16] Georgia Mid-Amateur,^[17] Rice Planters Amateur^[18]
• 1989 Sunnehanna Amateur, Georgia Mid-Amateur^[17]
• 1990 Sunnehanna Amateur, Georgia Amateur,^[16]Rice Planters Amateur^[18]
• 1991 Cardinal Amateur^[19]
• 1992 Sunnehanna Amateur
• 1993 Northeast Amateur
• 1994 Dogwood Invitational, Sunnehanna Amateur, Porter Cup, Cardinal Amateur,^[19] Rice Planters Amateur^[18]

 

^{not exactly like he came out of nowhere. 😉}

[MUNIGRIT]

There are so many of these guys. They usually end up trying to be IG influnencers pitching CBD oil and off brand balls/clubs, and range finders. Shows like shot makers and holey moley are made for these 6 handicaps. I have a friend like this and I know his game but if I didn't id assume he was as good as he acts on IG. I've seen another girl who I have seen play that isn't very good but still does the low life move of go funding her followers into Q school entry fee where she goes to shoot in the 80s.

 

 

[miamistomp]

 Is the guy on No Putts Given still trying a go fund me for Mini Tours ?

 Have not watched it in quite awhile- got too cringy

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by miamistomp

[bcflyguy1]

4 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

There are so many of these guys. They usually end up trying to be IG influnencers pitching CBD oil and off brand balls/clubs, and range finders. Shows like shot makers and holey moley are made for these 6 handicaps. I have a friend like this and I know his game but if I didn't id assume he was as good as he acts on IG. I've seen another girl who I have seen play that isn't very good but still does the low life move of go funding her followers into Q school entry fee where she goes to shoot in the 80s.

 

 

The old yarn that a sucker is born every minute is as true as it ever was. Grifters gonna grift...