It's time, Pro's (and others) should get relief from divots...

[oikos1]

20 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Without the line of sight mlr he wouldn't have had that option.

 

Using the rules is not what I would personally term luck.  I was thinking more like extra 50 yards hitting a path or whacking a sign and it keeping the ball from going ob.  Hitting the stick with a skull. I skulled one off a high tension power line metal support thing the other day and it bounced back onto the green.  Otherwise it was going into the interstate.

 

If the desire is to eliminate bad luck, and we don't want to win by virtue of luck, dont we also need to get rid of good luck too?

That's the very point I'm making.  Good luck/back luck is a completely arbitrary position.  It shouldn't even be considered when a player puts the ball in the fairway.  In golf, that is a good shot. Yet a player who puts a bad shot in the bunker expects it to be raked (wasn't always this way and some courses have no rakes), is able to remove pebbles (didn't use to be that way) and can obtain "free relief" for a bit of standing water in the bunker (now known as a penalty area).  Makes zero sense.

[clinkinfo]

18 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I play ~100 times a year and I can't even remember the last time I was in a divot, even in the winter when our fairways go dormant. 

Out of curiosity, are you playing low, mid, or high end public or private courses?  Obviously, the answer to that will likely have a huge impact on how many divots you face in the fairway.  Which in itself may be another argument for why it should be GUR, since in theory it shouldn't matter what type of course you can afford to play, conditions should be equitable for everyone. But there are definitely more unrepaired divots at the local public course here than the high end private one down the road.

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

Out of curiosity, are you playing low, mid, or high end public or private courses?  Obviously, the answer to that will likely have a huge impact on how many divots you face in the fairway.  Which in itself may be another argument for why it should be GUR, since in theory it shouldn't matter what type of course you can afford to play, conditions should be equitable for everyone. But there are definitely more unrepaired divots at the local public course here than the high end private one down the road.

Private for 95% of my rounds (either my club or friend's clubs). Still plenty of unfilled divots though.  Bermuda divots can't be replaced, so sand is the only option and a lot of the walkers don't carry sand (and some members just don't care)

 

I played plenty at the local munis prior to joining, it was never really an issue for me then either. I would say on average golfer there is hitting from the fairway less often than a private club where you are generally going to have a higher concentration of better golfers. There is only one instance in my mind where I got really stymied by a divot and it was at a high end resort course on a golf trip with a traveling men's club, where I ended up in an inch deep trench

[Krt22]

36 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

That's the very point I'm making.  Good luck/back luck is a completely arbitrary position.  It shouldn't even be considered when a player puts the ball in the fairway.  In golf, that is a good shot. Yet a player who puts a bad shot in the bunker expects it to be raked (wasn't always this way and some courses have no rakes), is able to remove pebbles (didn't use to be that way) and can obtain "free relief" for a bit of standing water in the bunker (now known as a penalty area).  Makes zero sense.

There are plenty of good shots that ultimately fall victim to bad luck. Hitting flag sticks that rebound into the water/bunker, hitting sprinkler heads and having the ball run out of fairway/OB, mud balls, etc. Good and bad luck is just part of the game

[SnowbirdTom]

I can honestly state that my golf career started in 1970 and don’t ever remember being in a divot on the fairway.  That encompasses hundreds of rounds at many different courses from very low end to just shy of members only private clubs.  Play it down unless course and PGA rules state otherwise. /shrug

 

Much ado about nothing.

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, clinkinfo said:

Out of curiosity, are you playing low, mid, or high end public or private courses?  Obviously, the answer to that will likely have a huge impact on how many divots you face in the fairway.  Which in itself may be another argument for why it should be GUR, since in theory it shouldn't matter what type of course you can afford to play, conditions should be equitable for everyone. But there are definitely more unrepaired divots at the local public course here than the high end private one down the road.

 It may sound counter intuitive, but there is a better argument for 'divot rule' on a well maintained course than one that is not.

 

Your low end goat track has plenty of questionable lies in the fairways that aren't divot, so why should a divot matter? You don't have a great lie either way. At nice course that is well taken care being in a divot or not is much more significant difference. 

 

Regardless I am not sure I could ever prescribe to your socialist view that conditions should be the same for everyone at every course no matter what you pay. 

[2bGood]

17 minutes ago, SnowbirdTom said:

I can honestly state that my golf career started in 1970 and don’t ever remember being in a divot on the fairway.  That encompasses hundreds of rounds at many different courses from very low end to just shy of members only private clubs.  Play it down unless course and PGA rules state otherwise. /shrug

 

Much ado about nothing.

Play 150 a year. I am in true unfilled divot once every few years. I am in filled and semi repaired divot once-ish per year. I have a divot have significant effect on my score once per decade. 

 

I figure divots cost me 1-2 stroke per every 1000 rounds. Not a big deal. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by 2bGood

[Titleist84]

21 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Play 150 a year. I am in true unfilled divot once every few years. I am in filled and semi repaired divot once-ish per year. I have a divot have significant effect on my score once per decade. 

 

I figure divots cost me 1-2 stroke per every 1000 rounds. Not a big deal. 

Of course you would be for playing the ball as it lies Judge Smails.

[2bGood]

3 minutes ago, Titleist84 said:

Of course you would be for playing the ball as it lies Judge Smails.

The judge is my spirit animal. 
 

To be honest my view is the very few people that actually adhere to the rules of golf want a divot rule. Frankly the more you understand the rules and appreciate them, the less you want a divot rule to be put in place. 
 

Most of the people wanting a divot rule, don’t play tournament golf and don’t adhere to the rules any way. I have no problem with people enjoying the game the way they want to enjoy it (providing they aren’t competing under a set of rules).  If you are playing for fun, then take relief from divots. No need to change the rules. 

[clinkinfo]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 It may sound counter intuitive, but there is a better argument for 'divot rule' on a well maintained course than one that is not.

 

Your low end goat track has plenty of questionable lies in the fairways that aren't divot, so why should a divot matter? You don't have a great lie either way. At nice course that is well taken care being in a divot or not is much more significant difference. 

 

Regardless I am not sure I could ever prescribe to your socialist view that conditions should be the same for everyone at every course no matter what you pay. 

 

I don't agree.  It affects better players more no matter what type of course you play.  If your spin and launch numbers aren't consistant anyway, you won't likely notice the divot.  Plus, in my experience, the divots tend to me more reasonable at high end courses and far more likely to be repaired in a reasonable way, there aren't as many holes dug to china hitting in the same place 5 times in a row.

 

Im not suggesting course conditions should be the same no matter where you play, course conditions should be the same AT the course you play, no matter when you play.  

 

So I'll flip it back on you, if it happens once every 1000 shots....why not be open to changing it to GUR.  By your data the situation would hardly come up anyway over the course of a season.  No big deal.

 

But like most golf silliness, of course it's a big deal to some....just like spike marks on the green used to be.

Edited July 21, 2022 by clinkinfo

[2bGood]

21 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

I don't agree.  It affects better players more no matter what type of course you play.  If your spin and launch numbers aren't consistant anyway, you won't likely notice the divot.  Plus, in my experience, the divots tend to me more reasonable at high end courses and far more likely to be repaired in a reasonable way, there aren't as many holes dug to china hitting in the same place 5 times in a row.

 

Im not suggesting course conditions should be the same no matter where you play, course conditions should be the same AT the course you play, no matter when you play.  

 

So I'll flip it back on you, if it happens once every 1000 shots....why not be open to changing it to GUR.  By your data the situation would hardly come up anyway over the course of a season.  No big deal.

 

But like most golf silliness, of course it's a big deal to some....just like spike marks on the green used to be.

I said 1000 rounds so every 50,000-60,000 shots. 😁 a car horn goes off in my back swing far more often than a divot effects my score. 
 

By the way no need to change it to GUR. It already can be GUR.  Just need the committee to go out and mark it if they feel it truly is ground under repair. We have done that at our course. We have a par three contests once a year with a tee box 100-150 out on the par 4s and 5s. The resulting divot heavy are leads to an area is marked as GUR until it repairs. 
 

But for the record I am all for GUR as the committee decides what is GUR not the players. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by 2bGood

[clinkinfo]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:25 AM, MtlJeff said:

I'm not passionate either way. I think you should get a good lie in the fairway...

 

However, i agree with others that defining a divot would become very cumbersome and time consuming. I would imagine It would lengthen rounds noticeably when it comes to pros. You would have some guys ending up in like 8 divots a round

 

For the amount of time it happens, i don't care if they keep it as is. Westwood ended up in a divot on 18 sure....How many divots was Bryson in throughout the week? Probably at least one. Whether it happens on the 72nd hole of the 7th....same thing

 

Let's not forget too, we are talking about watching the highest level pros playing generally on a perfect course, with CADDIES who repair everything their players do and they still end up in them week to week.

 

 

 

 

[clinkinfo]

19 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I said 1000 rounds so every 50,000-60,000 shots. 😁 a car horn goes off in my back swing far more often than a divot effects my score. 
 

By the way no need to change it to GUR. It already can be GUR.  Just need the committee to go out and mark it if they feel it truly is ground under repair. We have done that at our course. We have a par three contests once a year with a tee box 100-150 out on the par 4s and 5s. The resulting divot heavy are leads to an area is marked as GUR until it repairs. 
 

But for the record I am all for GUR as the committee decides what is GUR not the players. 

 

Ok, so even more to my point. if it happens so infrequently, be open to a rule change, it won't affect you at all by your own admission.

 

I don't really understand the necessity to have the committee decide when in the fairway. a player is pretty capable of determining divot damage on their own.  Anyone who's going to take advantage of that hypothetical relief  rule in the fairway is going to be taking liberties with all the rules, so....they cheat and it's generally already known anyway. 

 

 the intent seems to be the same, to give equitable fairway lies to all players.  If your saying "when it gets bad enough, the committee will make a rule..." Well, that's kinda the point.  Obviously, that's acknowledging they get bad enough that rule intervention is required at times as GUR. And many local municipal courses don't have availble ongoing competition committees to even make that ruling anyway. 

 

It feels like In the committee rule solution, the higher end courses get relief (albeit in heavy traffic areas) but the better player playing consistently somewhere else doesn't?  That seems fine for some, but not equitable for all players.  And granted, life's not fair.  But the rules should try and be at least.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by clinkinfo

[SnowbirdTom]

16 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

Let's not forget too, we are talking about watching the highest level pros playing generally on a perfect course, with CADDIES who repair everything their players do and they still end up in them week to week.

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure the grounds crew gets out there every night and sands fairway divots from the day’s play too.  

[scotee]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Play 150 a year. I am in true unfilled divot once every few years. I am in filled and semi repaired divot once-ish per year. I have a divot have significant effect on my score once per decade. 

 

I figure divots cost me 1-2 stroke per every 1000 rounds. Not a big deal. 

 

Wow! Some of you have all the luck. I had a round early this season where I was in 3 divots.  Yes a muni, but I am in divots at least 10 times a year.  

[Krt22]

2 hours ago, scotee said:

 

Wow! Some of you have all the luck. I had a round early this season where I was in 3 divots.  Yes a muni, but I am in divots at least 10 times a year.  

Do some speed training and hit past the main landing areas. Easy fix

[bobfoster]

10 hours ago, Titleist84 said:

It should not be their top priority but still should be something considered and changed in the rulebook.

 

My mind has been changed on distance however.  Not that it makes courses obsolete, but it is ruining pace of play.  They definitely need to do something there but that's a topic for another thread.

Actually, just had a call with a USGA friend. They are actually really puzzling about distance right now. They actually know something needs to be done, but are actually trying to figure out what they can do that won't piss off 2/3s of the golfers and OEMs in the US (and the R&A is similarly in a conundrum). 

 

I get that you'd like a divot rule, but just want to say that (in practice) the issue is so back burnered that I don't see any changes even being talked about on the horizon. I not only have USGA friends, but also friends that own courses. One of my favorite local courses, he spend the winter, and a lot of money extending four or five tee boxes. Cost him a lot of money to do, and will cost him a lot of extra money to maintain (e.g., a 380 par 4 became 420 one). And he told me bluntly that this was the last adjustment he could make to his course. He's not going to buy any more land.

 

So I talk my friends that own courses, but also friends on the rules bodies (and a few friends that work at Titleist and Mizuno OEMs) - and they are all trying to figure out how to solve the distance problem right now. And no one has yet figured out how to do it. 

 

I was really wrong to speak in such dismissive tones towards you about a divot rule. But I just try to convey reality here, and the truth is that the people that actually make the rules are not even remotely considering divot rules. They are obsessing on the incredible advancements in clubs and technology and training, and figuring out how to make sure that in 2025, the average PGAT par 5 doesn't have to be 650 yards and take three shots to hit the green (seriously, that was actually a conversation tonight). 

 

So, my friend, truth is? They did (briefly) talk about a divot rule in preparation for the major 2019 rules simplification, but ultimately decided nah, "play it as it lies" is still good enough. They have a much more (to them) major issue they are dealing with right now.

 

Hope all this makes sense.

[oikos1]

6 minutes ago, bobfoster said:

Actually, just had a call with a USGA friend. They are actually really puzzling about distance right now.

Wow.  That's some deep ****. 

 

Enlightenment achieved.

[Chunkitgood]

9 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

Ok, so even more to my point. if it happens so infrequently, be open to a rule change, it won't affect you at all by your own admission.

 

I don't really understand the necessity to have the committee decide when in the fairway. a player is pretty capable of determining divot damage on their own. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some players are very capable of determining they are in a divot…even when they aren’t.

[OrangeGravy]

21 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

A drop and where you went entered a penalty area is not subjective. A divot is subjective. Big difference.

 

 

It is subjective though because not 1 person can has the ability to see exactly where it entered. Everyone is just using a best guess. 

[EagleAteBirdie]

I would rather not see a player call for a ref every time they find themselves with an imperfect lie on a fairway.

 

The game was designed for the ball to be played from where it finishes.  I think players are entitled to too much relief as it is.

[Carson33]

16 hours ago, 2bGood said:

The judge is my spirit animal. 
 

To be honest my view is the very few people that actually adhere to the rules of golf want a divot rule. Frankly the more you understand the rules and appreciate them, the less you want a divot rule to be put in place. 
 

Most of the people wanting a divot rule, don’t play tournament golf and don’t adhere to the rules any way. I have no problem with people enjoying the game the way they want to enjoy it (providing they aren’t competing under a set of rules).  If you are playing for fun, then take relief from divots. No need to change the rules. 

I do not understand your post. The people who play by the rules WANT the rule, but the more you understand the rules you DO NOT want? Also, you say that the people who play tournaments DO NOT want….yet they are the people that play by the rules who you say WANT it. Seems contradictory.

 

I must be weird. I have read most of this thread and the views are so wide spread.  I play by the rules, I understand the rules, I play tournament golf (Am, Mid-Am, etc.). I also play casual games with my buddies (but play it as it lies always so to mimic tournament golf). I play mostly private clubs. I get into a real full divot about 6 times per year in casual or tournament play. Sometimes, I will make par from the divot, but sometimes I will make double or bogey.  The kicker is that it usually comes at pivotal moment in the round. Yes, teaches you perseverance.

 

I want a divot rule. For those advocates against stating that the essence of the game is to “play it as it lies”.  Where were you when they started letting you tap down “imperfections” on the greens, rake the bunkers, ground your club in a hazard, move stones in a bunker, etc, etc, etc. Every new leniency to the rules is to allow the players later int eh day to have the same playing conditions as those in the early wave. However, this is one area that has not been addressed and clearly places more burden on the later players. If you are the 100th player to come through that hole, there will be more divots in the fairway than there were that morning.

 

Lastly, there is nothing more demoralizing than striping a beautiful drive right down the middle with a tournament on the line and finding your ball sitting squarely in a divot. I had the exact scenario happen a couple of years ago in the State Mid-Am. I was playing well, final day, get to the 3rd hole, hit one down the middle, find it in a BAD divot. I have 110 yards in with hazard behind the green. I could chop it out to the front of the green and try to get up and down, or I could try an all or nothing shot. I went with the latter, bladed it over the green into the hazard for double and was never in contention again. Obviously, I made the wrong decision, but why should I have even had to make the decision??? I hit the middle of the fairway and had 110 in.

[2bGood]

9 minutes ago, Carson33 said:

I do not understand your post. The people who play by the rules WANT the rule, but the more you understand the rules you DO NOT want? Also, you say that the people who play tournaments DO NOT want….yet they are the people that play by the rules who you say WANT it. Seems contradictory.

 

I am not sure you read most correctly look at it again:

 

... very few people that actually adhere to the rules of golf want a divot rule. Frankly the more you understand the rules and appreciate them, the less you want a divot rule to be put in place.  (Nothing contradictory there) - if you play by the rules you don't want a divot rule)
 

Then I say:

 

Most of the people wanting a divot rule, don’t play tournament golf and don’t adhere to the rules any way.

 

Again - people who don't play Tournament golf or by the rules are the ones asking for a divot rule. nothing contradictory here either. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

16 hours ago, scotee said:

 

Wow! Some of you have all the luck. I had a round early this season where I was in 3 divots.  Yes a muni, but I am in divots at least 10 times a year.  

I am sure there is some luck to it. I recall being golf trip and one of guys was in 3 or 4 divots during the course of 4 or 5 rounds at nice high end courses. We thought it was pretty funny. He was a good player so not a real issue though. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

13 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am not sure you read most correctly look at it again:

 

... very few people that actually adhere to the rules of golf want a divot rule. Frankly the more you understand the rules and appreciate them, the less you want a divot rule to be put in place.  (Nothing contradictory there) - if you play by the rules you don't want a divot rule)
 

Then I say:

 

Most of the people wanting a divot rule, don’t play tournament golf and don’t adhere to the rules any way.

 

Again - people who don't play Tournament golf or by the rules are the ones asking for a divot rule. nothing contradictory here either. 

I do both and think there should be a rule. If you think it shouldn’t be relief fine but who wants/doesn’t want the rule, frequency of being in a divot, etc. to me aren’t relevant to the discussion.

[2bGood]

27 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

I do both and think there should be a rule. If you think it shouldn’t be relief fine but who wants/doesn’t want the rule, frequency of being in a divot, etc. to me aren’t relevant to the discussion.

I think who wants the rule change is relevant. I am not trying to insult people, but if you don't actually know the rules of golf or play by them, then I am not going to take your view on changes to them seriously. 

 

My point is if you spend time with rules officials or those that study the rules, basically no one thinks there should be free relief form divots as it fundamentally alters the game and it's current rules. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, OrangeGravy said:

It is subjective though because not 1 person can has the ability to see exactly where it entered. Everyone is just using a best guess. 

Wether you are or are not in a penalty area is virtual certain - and not subjective at all. Penalty Areas are very clearly defined and marked. There is very little ambiguity in the situation. And if there is ambiguity and you are unsure if you are in the penalty area in anyway, then under the rules, you are not in the penalty area. The rules are crystal clear in that regard. From there your relief area does require an estimation along with specific measurement. 

 

Tell me how to be virtually certain you are in a divot? How is a divot defined and marked? 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by 2bGood

[clinkinfo]

7 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

 

Some players are very capable of determining they are in a divot…even when they aren’t.

 

And??

 

Some players are good at cheating, yes.  They break all the other rules too!  What’s the point?

[clinkinfo]

29 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Wether you are or are not in penalty area is virtually certainty - and not subjective at all. Penalty area are very clearly defined and marked. There is very little ambiguity in the situation. And if there is ambiguity and you are unsure if you are in the penalty area in anyway, then under the rules, you are not in the penalty area. The rules are crystal clear in that regard. From there your relief area does require and estimation along with specific measurement. 

 

Tell me how to be virtually certain you are in a divot? How is a divot defined and marked? 

 

 

 

 

they would identify a divot the same way your proposed “competition committee” identify divots.  But, You’re focused on the word “divot” when in reality, it doesn’t matter.  

 

Look at the rule change for spike marks:

 

The New Rule: Golfers are now allowed to repair almost any damage on the green, such as spike marks, ball-marks, indentations from a club or flagstick, and animal damage.

 

We don’t try to “identify” spike marks, we just allow repairs.

 

It’s the same thing.  If you’re in the fairway, and you are in some type of hole or dirt patch, regardless of what you want to call it, you can create a rule that allows relief back to the grass portion on the fairway.  Make it a single club length from the spot, heck, make it whatever you want to tighten the location they can drop it.

 

If you are in the fairway, you should have a “fairway” lie.  Whether or not its a divot, someone with a shovel, or someone that dragged their feet or peeled out in the golf cart, does it really matter?  If you’re in the fairway, you should have a “fairway” lie. 

 

 

 

 

[2bGood]

35 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

they would identify a divot the same way your proposed “competition committee” identify divots.  But, You’re focused on the word “divot” when in reality, it doesn’t matter.  

 

Look at the rule change for spike marks:

 

The New Rule: Golfers are now allowed to repair almost any damage on the green, such as spike marks, ball-marks, indentations from a club or flagstick, and animal damage.

 

We don’t try to “identify” spike marks, we just allow repairs.

 

It’s the same thing.  If you’re in the fairway, and you are in some type of hole or dirt patch, regardless of what you want to call it, you can create a rule that allows relief back to the grass portion on the fairway.  Make it a single club length from the spot, heck, make it whatever you want to tighten the location they can drop it.

 

If you are in the fairway, you should have a “fairway” lie.  Whether or not its a divot, someone with a shovel, or someone that dragged their feet or peeled out in the golf cart, does it really matter?  If you’re in the fairway, you should have a “fairway” lie. 

 

 

 

 

The big difference is when a committee does it, is they do it the same for all players. When players do it on their own, you can't have consistency. Players don't get to define GUR on the own, that is a committee function. Players should not be defining divots on their own as you would not have a consistent approach. 

 

And yes I agree with your second point. The only way the rules works is to allow relief in the fairway (closely mown area) from 'anything'. I don't like that idea as you are no longer playing the ball as it lies and are playing lift clean place at all times. but regardless this is the only solution that I see that works (again I don't like it as it fundamentally changes the game). 

 

I always conceded that if you want to have a rule that allows player to never have to hit out of divot (or stand in one) using a version of the current model local rule (below) is the only solution that works. I don't see a workable middle ground that provide relief just from 'divots'. 

 

Again I don't like this as the first and oldest rule of golf is - play the ball as it lies. Adopting this rule would take that away.

 

Model Local Rule E-3

“When a player’s ball lies in a part of the general area cut to fairway height or less [or identify a specific area such as ‘on the fairway of the 6th hole’], the player may take free relief once by placing the original ball or another ball in and playing it from this relief area:

• Reference Point: Spot of the original ball.

• Size of Relief Area Measured from Reference Point: [Specify size of relief area, such as one club-length, one scorecard length or 6 inches] from the reference point, but with these limits:

• Limits on Location of Relief Area:

  • Must not be nearer the hole than the reference point, and

  • Must be in the general area.

In proceeding under this Local Rule, the player must choose a spot to place the ball and use the procedures for replacing a ball under Rules 14.2b(2) and 14.2e.

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by 2bGood