Any loopholes to the inability to post solo rounds?

[tboh]

This thread is INSANE & makes me realize that i completely hate handicapped golf ... but ... i have a question

 

When I enter my scores via GHIN app it asks for Home Away or Competitive 

 

What is the def of Competitive for posting purposes?

Edited July 4, 2021 by tboh

[tboh]

11 minutes ago, Newby said:

Some questions.

Do you need a WHS/USGA handicap?

Do you want a WHS/ USGA handicap?

If so , would you use it for competition play and/or general play?

If general play, would you have your score attested?

Yes (in some instances)

No (I could care less)

Yes for fun net events or to be flighted correctly

Never (oh well)

Edited July 4, 2021 by tboh

[SC-TX 88]

12 minutes ago, Newby said:

Some questions.

Do you need a WHS/USGA handicap?

Do you want a WHS/ USGA handicap?

If so , would you use it for competition play and/or general play?

If general play, would you have your score attested?

You have to have one to compete, if this wasn’t a requirement and we all just played straight up gross, no I wouldn’t have one. 

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, SC-TX 88 said:

You have to have one to compete, if this wasn’t a requirement and we all just played straight up gross, no I wouldn’t have one. 

[tboh]

1 minute ago, sui generis said:

Stealing this fo'sho ...

[davep043]

1 hour ago, tboh said:

When I enter my scores via GHIN app it asks for Home Away or Competitive 

What is the def of Competitive for posting purposes?

This should ideally be defined by your club's Handicap Committee, its basically for their use.  At my club, we use it for any organized competition, no matter what the format, as long as the format is one that the Handicap Rules tell us is post-able.  There is no longer a specific calculation associated with competition rounds, but a Committee could choose to look at any differences between casual rounds and competition rounds.

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Some questions.

Do you need a WHS/USGA handicap?

Do you want a WHS/ USGA handicap?

If so , would you use it for competition play and/or general play?

If general play, would you have your score attested?

I am certain that the WHS will continue to be revised in the future, in most if not all jurisdictions.  I would support a change to require some type of attestation in the USGA regions, along with pre-registration for posting of non-competitive rounds.  I understand that will bring renewed howls of protests from the "You have to trust me" crowd, but that would be the most productive way to move us towards the practices used by most of the rest of the world.  I also don't know exactly how it would be accomplished, but I'm sure that there's technology available.

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This should ideally be defined by your club's Handicap Committee, its basically for their use.  At my club, we use it for any organized competition, no matter what the format, as long as the format is one that the Handicap Rules tell us is post-able.  There is no longer a specific calculation associated with competition rounds, but a Committee could choose to look at any differences between casual rounds and competition rounds.

I am certain that the WHS will continue to be revised in the future, in most if not all jurisdictions.  I would support a change to require some type of attestation in the USGA regions, along with pre-registration for posting of non-competitive rounds.  I understand that will bring renewed howls of protests from the "You have to trust me" crowd, but that would be the most productive way to move us towards the practices used by most of the rest of the world.  I also don't know exactly how it would be accomplished, but I'm sure that there's technology available.

If the USGA makes posting more restrictive they will also likely need to come up with a minimum number of posted rounds a year to maintain a handicap.  More restrictions will drive down number of posted rounds quite a bit.

[tboh]

38 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This should ideally be defined by your club's Handicap Committee, its basically for their use.  At my club, we use it for any organized competition, no matter what the format, as long as the format is one that the Handicap Rules tell us is post-able.  There is no longer a specific calculation associated with competition rounds, but a Committee could choose to look at any differences between casual rounds and competition rounds.

I am certain that the WHS will continue to be revised in the future, in most if not all jurisdictions.  I would support a change to require some type of attestation in the USGA regions, along with pre-registration for posting of non-competitive rounds.  I understand that will bring renewed howls of protests from the "You have to trust me" crowd, but that would be the most productive way to move us towards the practices used by most of the rest of the world.  I also don't know exactly how it would be accomplished, but I'm sure that there's technology available.

Thanks dave ... i did not know that there were not  differences between home away or competitive ...

 

I would argue some of my "friendly" gambling games are much more competitive than my clubs turkey shoot or weekly pro-am

[Mudguard]

Sigh. I get tired of this handicap golf isn't real golf argument. If your local club only held gross competitions, how long would they stay financially viable? If the average global handicap is 18, (not withstanding the US and posting solo rounds) and each week they were told, oh it's a gross comp this week, who would stay at that club?

Some might desire pure gross only events, but the people who win those are usually the 20 year old range rat who is either unemployed, a student or both. And their annual sub is usually nowhere near that paid by the 50 year old twice a week player who hits it 200 at best and is pleased to break 90. 

[RCGA]

I honestly wonder what is point of a handicap in this day and age?

 

Net events are largely won by sandbaggers. Stat apps are way better at tracking progress. Most of the golfing public doesn't play by the rules. And anyone who's not a sandbagger or able to win gross in tournaments just cares about the skins, long drive and closest to the hole.

 

Preventing what rounds I can and can't enter just make me want to use something else to track progress, which defeats the whole purpose. 

 

 

[North Butte]

23 minutes ago, RCGA said:

I honestly wonder what is point of a handicap in this day and age?

 

Net events are largely won by sandbaggers. Stat apps are way better at tracking progress. Most of the golfing public doesn't play by the rules. And anyone who's not a sandbagger or able to win gross in tournaments just cares about the skins, long drive and closest to the hole.

 

Preventing what rounds I can and can't enter just make me want to use something else to track progress, which defeats the whole purpose. 

 

 

The point of golf handicaps in any day and age is to provide a basis for interesting and challenging competition between golfers of different abilities. Otherwise golf would like tennis where 90% of the other players in the world are either so much better or so much worse than you are, there's no real way to set up an even match with them. 

 

Net "events" in the sense of stroke play tournaments don't represent 1/10th or probably not 1/20th of the rounds for which handicaps are used every day. Millions of golfers regularly play matches against others who frequent the same course. Bob and Jay are a 10 and 14, today they're playing best ball against Tom and Rob who are a 3 and an 9 so they'll get strokes to make it a fair match. That sort of thing.

 

The system works quite well for that sort of thing. Could it be better designed and implemented? Heck yeah. Can you build a sandbagger-proof system? Probably not, at least not a system that anyone would be willing to put up with. So it's less than perfect, that doesn't mean it has no use. 

 

There's more to golf than solo rounds and large-field stroke play comps. You ought to try it some time, see how the rest of us experience the game. It's fun!

[RCGA]

27 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Net "events" in the sense of stroke play tournaments don't represent 1/10th or probably not 1/20th of the rounds for which handicaps are used every day. Millions of golfers regularly play matches against others who frequent the same course. Bob and Jay are a 10 and 14, today they're playing best ball against Tom and Rob who are a 3 and an 9 so they'll get strokes to make it a fair match. 

 

Is the WHS only designed to protect that integrity of the $5 nassau?

 

Because it sounds like a handicapping origination for gambling rather than actually caring about the performance of a player.  

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by RCGA

[Mudguard]

2 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

Is the WHS only designed to protect that integrity of the $5 nassau?

 

Because it sounds like a handicapping origination for gambling rather than actually caring about the performance of a player.  

 

 

Eh?

Every week a hundred or so people turn up on Saturday, put their $10 in for the club stableford. Go to the tee, swap cards with their partner, play, compete, have a beer and go home. 

If you have no handicaps, you'd have no golf courses. I get that the US is different, but in most parts of the rest of the world, golf is only played by club members, a handicap is a source of pride and ensures that you mostly play by the rules. If you're playing on your own, or turning in solo cards, then I'm sorry, you're just practicing, and your handicap is not the 'same' as someone from New Zealand, or the UK, or plenty of other places. 

[North Butte]

5 minutes ago, RCGA said:

 

Is the WHS only designed to protect that integrity of the $5 nassau?

 

Because it sounds like a handicapping origination for gambling rather than actually caring about the performance of a player.  

 

 

At the risk of repeating myself...

 

No the World Handicap System does not care about evaluating the performance of a player. It's not the World Game Improvement System or the World Training System or the World Track Your Progress System.

 

It is to provide a basis for golfers of different abilities to compete with each other. Period. That's all.

 

Go buy one of dozens of "stats" apps if you're not interested in competition.

[sui generis]

There's nothing like a thread on divot holes or GHiN to bring out the "rules am stupid" crowd.

 

I guess it's the price we pay for the normally civil and intelligent discourse we enjoy in this forum. At least they generally go away sooner or later, but then new ones pop up to dig their own holes. 😊

[jimbo123]

Here I think you have a bunch of people who want to play RoG-based golf in some structured and meaningful way, ie about as far as you can get from the “rules am stupid” crowd.  But the overwhelmingly dominant framework for doing so says to them “no place for you here, go and use some silly app that no one cares about instead”.  
 

Apologies that that viewpoint seems uncivil and unintelligent to you. 

[Nels55]

54 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Eh?

Every week a hundred or so people turn up on Saturday, put their $10 in for the club stableford. Go to the tee, swap cards with their partner, play, compete, have a beer and go home. 

If you have no handicaps, you'd have no golf courses. I get that the US is different, but in most parts of the rest of the world, golf is only played by club members, a handicap is a source of pride and ensures that you mostly play by the rules. If you're playing on your own, or turning in solo cards, then I'm sorry, you're just practicing, and your handicap is not the 'same' as someone from New Zealand, or the UK, or plenty of other places. 

For as long as I have had a handicap my goal has been to get it as low as possible.  For a number of years I would play my heart out in an early morning round before work usually by myself trying to shoot a good score and playing strictly by the rules of golf.  I also played in a couple of tournaments every month where I used my handicap to compete.  I was not 'just practicing' during those early morning rounds and my handicap was just as damn good as yours!

[ChaosTheory]

I’ve belonged to 4 smaller town clubs.  One is now a big club with over 600 members (36 holes).  The other three clubs, I’m sure, had no one policing handicaps.  And People entered their own scores.

 

The big club probably has someone on paper who is responsible, but I’ve never seen or heard about anything ever being done.  As at the other three clubs, even under the new rules, people post their own scores in the shop or online.  No one cares if or what you post.
 

Also, as others have said, typically I’m the only one in my group posting, so I might as well have played solo.  I don’t turn in the card so there is nothing to attest.

 

Its the same at the various daily fee courses we play at.  
 

There are two different worlds in the US for handicaps:  clubs that care, certainly a minority, and all the rest.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Snowman9000

[2bGood]

43 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

For as long as I have had a handicap my goal has been to get it as low as possible.  For a number of years I would play my heart out in an early morning round before work usually by myself trying to shoot a good score and playing strictly by the rules of golf.  I also played in a couple of tournaments every month where I used my handicap to compete.  I was not 'just practicing' during those early morning rounds and my handicap was just as damn good as yours!

I am not going to argue the "just as good" but a handicap from solo rounds is very different from a handicap from competitive play. There is the odd guy that plays better under the pressure of playing with and against other players, but for the most part playing solo is a different experience form playing in an actual event and player that got there handicap solo wilts under the pressure of playing with others in a real event.

[Nels55]

28 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am not going to argue the "just as good" but a handicap from solo rounds is very different from a handicap from competitive play. There is the odd guy that plays better under the pressure of playing with and against other players, but for the most part playing solo is a different experience form playing in an actual event and player that got there handicap solo wilts under the pressure of playing with others in a real event.

Ah yes, playing under tournament pressure.  In my case I put enough pressure on myself playing to shoot a low score on my solo rounds and I played enough competition rounds that the scores were pretty even between the two.  I also played weekend skins / dots games that were not far off from playing tournament rounds as far as pressure goes.  The golfers that I know who play solo rounds also play a lot of competitive rounds and I don't think that their solo rounds are any different from the competitive rounds.  

 

Anyway if only competition rounds were allowed for handicapping it would make it a lot harder for me to get up for a non competitive round and it would take a lot of the fun out of golfing in every day rounds.  LOL I have no interest in playing 'practice' rounds!  I can see how allowing only competitive rounds would possibly make for a more level playing field by limiting vanity caps and sand baggers but in my case and that of a lot of golfers that I know it would cause some lag between the handicap and the scoring ability.

[Mudguard]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

 I was not 'just practicing' during those early morning rounds and my handicap was just as damn good as yours!

 

Except one is viewed differently from the other. Hell I played some rounds in the UK and got sNope when asked my handicap, I played with a couple of professionals and was asked what I was playing off.

I replied four. To which my friend replied, a New Zealand four.  The inference being that a UK handicap was superior, which it was, because of the way they used to do it, competition scores only, meant that someone with a low handicap, on average, was better than a player in our system.

Then you have the US, where there is no attestation, peer review, and you can enter them yourself!

How does GHIN etc work when you want to get on a course, say St Andrews and you have to show them your handicap? Just show them the app?

[tboh]

6 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

Except one is viewed differently from the other. Hell I played some rounds in the UK and got sNope when asked my handicap, I played with a couple of professionals and was asked what I was playing off.

I replied four. To which my friend replied, a New Zealand four.  The inference being that a UK handicap was superior, which it was, because of the way they used to do it, competition scores only, meant that someone with a low handicap, on average, was better than a player in our system.

Then you have the US, where there is no attestation, peer review, and you can enter them yourself!

How does GHIN etc work when you want to get on a course, say St Andrews and you have to show them your handicap? Just show them the app?

Yes ... the app has your hdcp card included to present if needed

 

If I play a round away I enter my score stats using my # 

 

It is immediately available for review

[bcski]

1 hour ago, Snowman9000 said:

I’ve belonged to 4 smaller town clubs.  One is now a big club with over 600 members (36 holes).  The other three clubs, I’m sure, had no one policing handicaps.  And People entered their own scores.

 

The big club probably has someone on paper who is responsible, but I’ve never seen or heard about anything ever being done.  As at the other three clubs, even under the new rules, people post their own scores in the shop or online.  No one cares if or what you post.
 

Also, as others have said, typically I’m the only one in my group posting, so I might as well have played solo.  I don’t turn in the card so there is nothing to attest.

 

Its the same at the various daily fee courses we play at.  
 

There are two different worlds in the US for handicaps:  clubs that care, certainly a minority, and all the rest.

Annnndddd, you have stumbled into the one place that houses the minority...  Soon you will have the age old "rules am stupid" line tossed about by the forums favorite multi-accouter... with him using his other accounts to also attack you....  So BUCKLE UP...

[Nels55]

20 minutes ago, Par Be A Joke said:

Annnndddd, you have stumbled into the one place that houses the minority...  Soon you will have the age old "rules am stupid" line tossed about by the forums favorite multi-accouter... with him using his other accounts to also attack you....  So BUCKLE UP...

I don't know this does seem to be an odd corner of the wrx universe.  You can get a lot of good information here but there do seem to be some who hold the rule book as sacred and infallible!

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, Nels55 said:

Ah yes, playing under tournament pressure.  In my case I put enough pressure on myself playing to shoot a low score on my solo rounds and I played enough competition rounds that the scores were pretty even between the two.  I also played weekend skins / dots games that were not far off from playing tournament rounds as far as pressure goes.  The golfers that I know who play solo rounds also play a lot of competitive rounds and I don't think that their solo rounds are any different from the competitive rounds.  

 

 If this is the case you and your friends are unique and mentally superior to most golfers including those at the highest level. 

 

Like I said some golfers are able to perform the same solo as they do in a competitive round, but it is rare.

Edited July 5, 2021 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

2 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I don't know this does seem to be an odd corner of the wrx universe.  You can get a lot of good information here but there do seem to be some who hold the rule book as sacred and infallible!

I am not sure sacred and infallible is the right terms to use, but this is the place that draws in those the accept the rules and choose to play by them (or run events under them).

 

 

 

 

[bcski]

4 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I don't know this does seem to be an odd corner of the wrx universe.  You can get a lot of good information here but there do seem to be some who hold the rule book as sacred and infallible!

Very true.  Today I had our IT director toss out a username and the wrx board as the only info on a few offshore accounts to see what hits came in.  (I don't want my company IT digging around sites)

 

Within 3 hours there were multiple responses.  The user who mostly lives in the rules forum and is very demeaning if anyone doesn't live up to their thoughts, has 4 accounts traced to 4 different emails, using 2 proxy servers.  (VPN's are much better)  I would expect him to read this and pony up a few dollars to go VPN.

 

They also found many other multi accouters not using proxys... 

 

I have been very surprised WRX IT dept, if one exists, hasn't picked up on this just from the posting history and "gang style" attacks on the board.

 

So now that I know I will just ignore those accounts and then the obvious new ones that will be created.

[Sawgrass]

33 minutes ago, Par Be A Joke said:

Annnndddd, you have stumbled into the one place that houses the minority...  Soon you will have the age old "rules am stupid" line tossed about by the forums favorite multi-accouter... with him using his other accounts to also attack you....  So BUCKLE UP...

Don’t confuse consistency among educated rules people with one person posting multiple times. If you can’t tell the personality distinctions between regular learned posters here, you’re not paying enough attention.

[bcski]

1 hour ago, Snowman9000 said:

I’ve belonged to 4 smaller town clubs.  One is now a big club with over 600 members (36 holes).  The other three clubs, I’m sure, had no one policing handicaps.  And People entered their own scores.

 

The big club probably has someone on paper who is responsible, but I’ve never seen or heard about anything ever being done.  As at the other three clubs, even under the new rules, people post their own scores in the shop or online.  No one cares if or what you post.
 

Also, as others have said, typically I’m the only one in my group posting, so I might as well have played solo.  I don’t turn in the card so there is nothing to attest.

 

Its the same at the various daily fee courses we play at.  
 

There are two different worlds in the US for handicaps:  clubs that care, certainly a minority, and all the rest.

Snowman:  you see my point?  Just ignore and let the tantrum run it's course.

Edited July 5, 2021 by bcski

[Nels55]

15 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 If this is the case you and your friends are unique and mentally superior to most golfers including those at the highest level. 

 

Like I said some golfer are able to perform the same solo as they do in a competitive round, but it is rare.

LOL very funny!  I don't see that at all, most golfers seem to be able to get used to tournament conditions and play well in them.  I believe that most pro golfers who succeed at playing for a living play better in tournaments then they do in casual rounds.  The reason that they are touring pros is they are adept at exceling under pressure and the pressure makes them sharper.  Now the pressure situation can vary and often it takes golfers a few tries to learn how to succeed under the gun on Sunday when in contention but they will figure it out in most cases if they have the talent.  

 

So, no I don't see my situation or the golfers that I golf with as being anything mentally exceptional!  LOL I do believe that it helps to be either really dumb or really smart though.  Being in the middle can be problematic.

 

For me I have succumbed to tournament pressure sometimes and I have done well under the pressure at other times.  Sometimes when I get thrown into a new higher pressure situation I will choke big time though.  Maybe the next time in the same situation I will do well as I am not overwhelmed by it...