Internal out of bounds at my course

[Curmudg3on]

A local private course in Davison, MI has an internal OB between 9 and 10.   Their logic is safety.

[rogolf]

Internal OOB is also often used for clubhouses, parking lots and maintenance areas.  Why would there be any difference?

[jimbo123]

8 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Internal OOB is also often used for clubhouses, parking lots and maintenance areas.  Why would there be any difference?

Wouldn’t they just be OOB, rather than internal OOB?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, jimbo123 said:

Wouldn’t they just be OOB, rather than internal OOB?

I don't understand what you see as a difference?  Often those areas are internal to the external boundaries of the course.

[jimbo123]

5 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I don't understand what you see as a difference?  Often those areas are internal to the external boundaries of the course.

I might be misunderstanding but I thought “internal OOB” was a specific term used for when part of the course, which is not regular OOB, is treated as OOB for players on a particular hole.   Which can seem like ugly/unintended design, unlike a car park which is always OOB for reasons no-one would ever disagree with.  

[Newby]

4 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

I might be misunderstanding but I thought “internal OOB” was a specific term used for when part of the course, which is not regular OOB, is treated as OOB for players on a particular hole.   Which can seem like ugly/unintended design, unlike a car park which is always OOB for reasons no-one would ever disagree with.  

It isn't an 'official' term but is certainly used to describe such situations. eg adjacent fairways when it would be dangerous to take on a dogleg say. Royal Liverpool (Hoylake) has their practice area in the middle of the course and it is described as an 'internal' OOB. 

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

I might be misunderstanding but I thought “internal OOB” was a specific term used for when part of the course, which is not regular OOB, is treated as OOB for players on a particular hole.   Which can seem like ugly/unintended design, unlike a car park which is always OOB for reasons no-one would ever disagree with.  

 

When a golf course is being built within certain pre-defined boundaries with limited space there is a possibility (and most often a real thing) that fairways are pretty close to each other. So wayward strokes may result in a ball ending up onto an adjacent fairway or close to it. However, deliberate hitting onto another fairway just to avoid difficulties on one's own hole to be played is not only dangerous but unethical as well. The course designer NEVER designs a hole to be played via an adjacent fairway and that should be kept in mind, IMHO.

[jimbo123]

39 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

When a golf course is being built within certain pre-defined boundaries with limited space there is a possibility (and most often a real thing) that fairways are pretty close to each other. So wayward strokes may result in a ball ending up onto an adjacent fairway or close to it. However, deliberate hitting onto another fairway just to avoid difficulties on one's own hole to be played is not only dangerous but unethical as well. The course designer NEVER designs a hole to be played via an adjacent fairway and that should be kept in mind, IMHO.

 

Agreed.  I can see why aesthetically, some people would prefer that the course "speak for itself", ie be designed so that hitting a different fairway isn't an attractive option, rather than relying on internal OOB.  Personally I don't care because I can't imagine wanting to target a different fairway and potentially killing someone, I would just find that a very stressful way to play golf, so it doesn't change my behaviour.  

[naval2006]

52 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

When a golf course is being built within certain pre-defined boundaries with limited space there is a possibility (and most often a real thing) that fairways are pretty close to each other. So wayward strokes may result in a ball ending up onto an adjacent fairway or close to it. However, deliberate hitting onto another fairway just to avoid difficulties on one's own hole to be played is not only dangerous but unethical as well. The course designer NEVER designs a hole to be played via an adjacent fairway and that should be kept in mind, IMHO.

I agree with this point of view except the ethical aspect, which can be controversial in planning a strategy.  But as they mentioned above, there's a tree in the middle of the fairway which does discourage playing down the corresponding fairway because it's right in the middle covering almost all the fairway width in the landing area of a 180/190 yard tee shot and if you choose to hit a short iron to the 150 yard mark you'll face a towering shot with a 7/8/9 iron with zero room for error.  and if you pull the ball just a fraction too much, it ends on the road to the left.  Definitely a Hank Jonesque design made a real mess by that decision.  Especially because of the impossibility of hitting a normal ordinary shot to the middle and then be rewarded by a clear shot to the green or whereabouts.

 

By the way I'm glad this has become a hot topic for discussion because I don't know what will happen in a month with this decision.  Anyway Committee is retiring in September so y guess is the new members will likely pull out the stakes the day after the're appointed.  

 

 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

When a golf course is being built within certain pre-defined boundaries with limited space there is a possibility (and most often a real thing) that fairways are pretty close to each other. So wayward strokes may result in a ball ending up onto an adjacent fairway or close to it. However, deliberate hitting onto another fairway just to avoid difficulties on one's own hole to be played is not only dangerous but unethical as well. The course designer NEVER designs a hole to be played via an adjacent fairway and that should be kept in mind, IMHO.

That seems odd to me.  What is unethical about taking the route the player feels will give him his best score?  
Is it also unethical to intentionally hit a shot into a green side bunker to avoid deep rough?  That would not be playing as the architect intended either.

 

If you don’t want the player playing down the wrong fairway don’t make it a better option. 

[antip]

56 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

If you don’t want the player playing down the wrong fairway don’t make it a better option. 

That's precisely what they've done, made sure it is not the better option. It's the Committee's job to determine exactly what the golfing challenge is. 

[Shilgy]

10 minutes ago, antip said:

That's precisely what they've done, made sure it is not the better option. It's the Committee's job to determine exactly what the golfing challenge is. 

Then just put internal OB down the side of every fairway. If it is the committee’s job then the challenge will change every time an election is held.  

Internal OB is a lazy way to enforce a style of play imo.  On this hole particularly having a tree in the middle of the fairway on a short hole AND making the better route OB is ridiculous.

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Then just put internal OB down the side of every fairway. If it is the committee’s job then the challenge will change every time an election is held.  

Internal OB is a lazy way to enforce a style of play imo.  On this hole particularly having a tree in the middle of the fairway on a short hole AND making the better route OB is ridiculous.

It's like that on many courses in Japan - the other fairways are often marked as OOB.

The caddie says, "OB desu" often.

[sekrah]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:08 PM, larrybud said:

So now you have OB on both sides? Tell the committee they better pay for a re-rating of the course while they're at it, and to bump up any insurance for hitting balls on the road!

This might be one of the dumber designs I've ever seen! Where exactly are you supposed to hit the ball?

 

 

"Hey this hole with tight OB on the left and a tree in the middle of the fairway isn't hard enough."

 

What a bunch of knotheads.

 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, sekrah said:

 

"Hey this hole with tight OB on the left and a tree in the middle of the fairway isn't hard enough."

 

What a bunch of knotheads.

 

 

It is measily 290 yards long par4 so no need for any spectacular jumbo drives to reach that tree, simple hybrid or fairway wood is sufficient.

[Mudguard]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It is measily 290 yards long par4 so no need for any spectacular jumbo drives to reach that tree, simple hybrid or fairway wood is sufficient.

My old course had a par five with a large bunker in the middle/left of the fairway for the tee shot. I could rarely carry it with driver, but I could hit my driver, three wood and hybrid into it.😂

[antip]

8 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Internal OB is a lazy way to enforce a style of play imo.  

I'm very sympathetic to this. I think such an internal OOB should never be the 'go to' approach, there are almost always better alternatives - which is why we see them so rarely.

[larrybud]

 

22 hours ago, rogolf said:

Internal OOB is also often used for clubhouses, parking lots and maintenance areas.  Why would there be any difference?

 

The difference is that with an internal OOB, the committee is saying that the same spot on the golf course is in bounds if you teed off on one hole, but out of bounds if you happened to tee off on another hole.

External boundaries don't change based on which hole you teed off on.

[larrybud]

I'm pretty sure that if you ask any resident who lives adjacent to a golf course whether OOB stakes prevent balls from hitting their house, they would say no! lol

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:28 PM, Mr. Bean said:

Here's a hole with oaks. The top one, 399 meters from men's club tee. And those oaks are preserved, just have to live with them.

Out of curiosity, how are the pros doing this week? All I can see is the leader bogeyed it. Unfortunately I can't find any published hole averages for the Ladie's Euro Tour.

[Newby]

6 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

 

The difference is that with an internal OOB, the committee is saying that the same spot on the golf course is in bounds if you teed off on one hole, but out of bounds if you happened to tee off on another hole.
 

Not necessarily. eg the practice area at Royal Liverpool is in the middle of the course. It is OOB whichever hole you are playing.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

16 hours ago, rogolf said:

It's like that on many courses in Japan - the other fairways are often marked as OOB.

The caddie says, "OB desu" often.

]True, but that's usually because the course was carved out of a mountainside, and there is a steep drop or thick forest with poisonous snakes between the holes. Also, I'm pretty sure internal OoB was brought in to improve pace of play, which is why if you hit OoB, you don't re-tee but go forward to a special tee and play your fourth from there. Also, recently, quite a few courses around me are changing some of the OoB to "Wan-pena" (one-penalty) zones, from which you are allowed to take one penalty stroke, drop and play, like a water hazard.

 

Around where I am, the "better" courses don't have a lot of internal OoB.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Not necessarily. eg the practice area at Royal Liverpool is in the middle of the course. It is OOB whichever hole you are playing.

 

Unfortunately, I know it well....😢

[larrybud]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Not necessarily. eg the practice area at Royal Liverpool is in the middle of the course. It is OOB whichever hole you are playing.

 

I don't think anybody is referring to such a situation, but to having adjacent holes OOB to each other.

[antip]

1 hour ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

]True, but that's usually because the course was carved out of a mountainside, and there is a steep drop or thick forest with poisonous snakes between the holes. Also, I'm pretty sure internal OoB was brought in to improve pace of play, which is why if you hit OoB, you don't re-tee but go forward to a special tee and play your fourth from there. Also, recently, quite a few courses around me are changing some of the OoB to "Wan-pena" (one-penalty) zones, from which you are allowed to take one penalty stroke, drop and play, like a water hazard.

 

Around where I am, the "better" courses don't have a lot of internal OoB.

To clarify, is this saying holes previously bordered by rough/OOB are being converted to red penalty areas? 

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, antip said:

To clarify, is this saying holes previously bordered by rough/OOB are being converted to red penalty areas? 

In parts of Spain & Portugal, many dry rocky 'ravines' have always been red 'water hazards' (now PAs).

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

11 minutes ago, antip said:

To clarify, is this saying holes previously bordered by rough/OOB are being converted to red penalty areas? 

 

Not rough, internal OoB. And they are usually yellow stakes, with vague rules about dropping. 

 

Some courses had such areas before, but a couple of courses I play seem to have converted a few internal OoB areas to "Wan-pena" areas.

 

The "Wan-pena" areas are usually untamed areas within the course. I think the object is to stop players risking injury by climbing up/down steep slopes looking for their ball. 

 

I doubt these penalty areas are used in any sort of competition.

[jvincent]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

Not necessarily. eg the practice area at Royal Liverpool is in the middle of the course. It is OOB whichever hole you are playing.

Our driving range is in the middle of our course. Surrounded by holes 10, 11, 12.

 

It has always been in play with a bell of shame that you need to ring if you are going to play your shot from there to signal players to stop hitting. We renovated our practice areas at the end of last season so the range is currently a no play area while it grows in.

 

Personally I'd like them to make it OB even though I have been known to deposit the occasional ball there. 

[Mr. Bean]

13 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

Out of curiosity, how are the pros doing this week? All I can see is the leader bogeyed it. Unfortunately I can't find any published hole averages for the Ladie's Euro Tour.

 

We all have access to the same public data so I cannot help you with this, sorry. I wish I was at the venue but I have other duties as a referee elsewhere.

[antip]

10 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Not rough, internal OoB. And they are usually yellow stakes, with vague rules about dropping. 

 

Some courses had such areas before, but a couple of courses I play seem to have converted a few internal OoB areas to "Wan-pena" areas.

 

The "Wan-pena" areas are usually untamed areas within the course. I think the object is to stop players risking injury by climbing up/down steep slopes looking for their ball. 

 

I doubt these penalty areas are used in any sort of competition.

In conventional golf rule terms, it seems these would be red PA NPZs. But are you suggesting some of these wan pena areas can be other holes (than the player's hole) on some courses?