Golf Digest 100 Greatest Public Courses

[Argonne69]

I have to spend a little time comparing the top 100 lists from Golf, Gold Digest, and GolfWeek. 'Curious if there are any courses that are significantly different on the three.

 

[tjl48]

42 minutes ago, mci711 said:

Lawsonia at 23 is hilarious too. I can think of 22 courses in the midwest better than Lawsonia. 

 

Edit: IT IS 20TH NOW! Only 19 public courses in the country better than Lawsonia according to Golfweek... 🤯

 Lawsonia is the most overrated course I have ever played and it's not close. Hidden Gem, great value I could agree with. Rankings like these, and the guys claiming it's on the same tier as EH, SV, and WS are nuts. It's an adder course while going to these other destination courses. 

[tjl48]

45 minutes ago, mci711 said:

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by tjl48
Delete

[mci711]

42 minutes ago, Argonne69 said:

I have to spend a little time comparing the top 100 lists from Golf, Gold Digest, and GolfWeek. 'Curious if there are any courses that are significantly different on the three.

 

 

One standout similarity is that Cog falls in about the same place for Golf Digest and Golfweek. I enjoy Cog Hill, do I think #4 is a top 55 course in the country... I don't. But the rankers seem to. 

[klebs01]

1 hour ago, tjl48 said:

 Lawsonia is the most overrated course I have ever played and it's not close. Hidden Gem, great value I could agree with. Rankings like these, and the guys claiming it's on the same tier as EH, SV, and WS are nuts. It's an adder course while going to these other destination courses. 

it is in the same range as EH or SV. I would much rather play lawsonia than straights regardless of price. 

[StudentGolfer4]

Golf heavily prefers classic courses. 
Golf Digest prefers newer courses and ranks man made courses well. (Yes I know these commonly go hand in hand and there are exceptions). 

GolfWeek is usually in the middle. 
 

Pinehurst #2, Shadow Creek, and Arcadia Bluffs represents this well. 
 

Pinehurst #2 Rankings
Golf. 2

GD. 6

GW. 3 

Shadow Creek

Golf. 16
GD. 5
GW. 7

Arcadia Bluffs 

Golf. 38
GD. 14
GW 26

 

Forest Dunes and The Loop is another great example. FD is a newer (2000ish)  Weiskopf design. The Loop is a reversible Doak design that is designed to play firm and fast utilizing the ground game and slopes around the green. One is designed to play like a modern course and one’s designed to play like an old course.

 

Based on the rankings of the 3 courses above you can probably guess which publications will rank these courses highest and lowest.  The loop has 2 routings. GD ranked them individually which is why you see 2 numbers for the loop. (These are 2021 rankings) 

 

The Loop

Golf. 34

GD 59/78

GW. 39

 

Forest Dunes

Golf. 74

GD. 33

GW. 53

 

I will try to find the thread. Someone on Golf Club Atlas made a table comparing the top 100 US (not top public) between the 3 publications. Golf and GW lined up the majority of the time. A handful of courses were major outliers based on GD rankings. From what I recall, two of the biggest outliers was the Alotian Club in the 30s and Muirfield Villiage in the teens (both laughable according to mutual friends who have played the majority of the top 100) were two of the biggest outliers on any list. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by StudentGolfer4
Added forest dunes and the loop rankings

[me05501]

3 hours ago, tjl48 said:

 Lawsonia is the most overrated course I have ever played and it's not close. Hidden Gem, great value I could agree with. Rankings like these, and the guys claiming it's on the same tier as EH, SV, and WS are nuts. It's an adder course while going to these other destination courses. 

 

Sweeten's is the same IMO. Sure it's a neat little corner of the world. But it's only nine holes, relatively short, and can be brutally difficult in ways that are more infuriating than entertaining. 

 

It's always compared to quirky layouts in the UK where putting up with bad breaks is part of the deal. That's fine! But there needs to be at least one way to get the ball into the hole. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by me05501

[TexasTurf]

The raters usually show up randomly during different times of the year, usually on business trips just passing through. So a guy who just played on Long Island in August, might fly down to Phoenix the next day and be upset that it's not as green and lush as where he just came from. They always seem to come by at the worst times unless they are planning for one of their established favorites.

[Argonne69]

14 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

Sweeten's is the same IMO. Sure it's a neat little corner of the world. But it's only nine holes, relatively short, and can be brutally difficult in ways that are more infuriating than entertaining. 

 

It's always compared to quirky layouts in the UK where putting up with bad breaks is part of the deal. That's fine! But there needs to be at least one way to get the ball into the hole. 

 

Sweetens is fine for what it is. I wouldn't be playing it regularly if I was a local. It does a great job showing that a course built on a generally flat piece of land doesn't have to have greens that put you to sleep. Of course one can swing the pendulum too far the other way. Dialing them back a wee bit would be fine by me, but again, as a course that I'd play once in a while they're probably fine.

 

[Golferpaul]

18 hours ago, mci711 said:

 

One standout similarity is that Cog falls in about the same place for Golf Digest and Golfweek. I enjoy Cog Hill, do I think #4 is a top 55 course in the country... I don't. But the rankers seem to. 

I agree.  It doesn't make my top 100.

[sabram]

Here's a link to the new Golfweek's America;s 100 Greatest Public Courses 2022

 

I've played 48 from Golfweek's list and 44 from Golf Digest's. The 44 on GD's are not all on GW's but there is a lot of overlap between the two lists as would be expected

[Argonne69]

59 minutes ago, sabram said:

Here's a link to the new Golfweek's America;s 100 Greatest Public Courses 2022

 

I've played 48 from Golfweek's list and 44 from Golf Digest's. The 44 on GD's are not all on GW's but there is a lot of overlap between the two lists as would be expected

 

Lawsonia Links ahead of Chambers Bay and Erin Hills? Lol. Someone has enjoyed the Kool Aid. 

 

I've played 64 on the GW list. 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Argonne69

[sabram]

Just now, Argonne69 said:

Lawsonia Links ahead of Chambers Bay? Lol. Someone has enjoyed the Kool Aid. 

I don't get bothered by where a course ranks on a list. I am more focused on which courses are on a list. Material differences in ranking can result from two or three raters. I don't have any objection with both of those courses being on the list. To me, even 50 spots on the list isn't a big deal. There have been instances where I have preferred courses ranked in the 90's to some ranked in the thirties or 40's 

[Argonne69]

1 minute ago, sabram said:

I don't get bothered by where a course ranks on a list. I am more focused on which courses are on a list. Material differences in ranking can result from two or three raters. I don't have any objection with both of those courses being on the list. To me, even 50 spots on the list isn't a big deal. There have been instances where I have preferred courses ranked in the 90's to some ranked in the thirties or 40's 

 

The problem is that Lawsonia is on the list. I can easily think of 100 courses that are better. 

 

[sabram]

4 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

The problem is that Lawsonia is on the list. I can easily think of 100 courses that are better

It's on virtually every US top 100 public list, Golf Mag, GD, GW. It's even on the top 100 website of top 100  that includes privates.

[Phatferd]

Playing Yocha Dehe on Tuesday!  I knew it was a great course but never realized it's in these lists. They punched on 5/31 so I'm hoping they're above average by 6/14. 

[95124hacker]

On 6/9/2022 at 7:48 PM, Phatferd said:

Playing Yocha Dehe on Tuesday!  I knew it was a great course but never realized it's in these lists. They punched on 5/31 so I'm hoping they're above average by 6/14. 

I’ve played it a handful of times but never considered it a Top 75 course. Curious to get your opinion of it.

[ode]

What are the mags using as criteria to rank Lawsonia so high?   and those who say "overrated" are you using non-golf course elements as factors (range, clubhouse, accommodations, location)?

 

Selfishly I wish Lawsonia had not soared up the rankings as there used to be a day where I could go play twilight for $35.  That day is gone!  Mags are ranking it high, people play it and say it's overrated🤔.  

[mci711]

2 hours ago, ode said:

What are the mags using as criteria to rank Lawsonia so high?   and those who say "overrated" are you using non-golf course elements as factors (range, clubhouse, accommodations, location)?

 

Selfishly I wish Lawsonia had not soared up the rankings as there used to be a day where I could go play twilight for $35.  That day is gone!  Mags are ranking it high, people play it and say it's overrated🤔.  

 

I really enjoy it, have no problem with it being top 100 (80-100 IMO). It is ranked as high has it is because it is a solid layout. It isn't 18 great holes though. There are a few holes I don't care for. There is a stretch of awesome holes too. I do factor in other things when ranking a course, and maybe that isn't fair. The range is the worst range I've ever been to that isn't hitting straight into a net, the clubhouse, service etc is all just fine. It isn't in pristine condition. I think there is some goofiness overall with the course. Fun course to add on to a trip. When I lived in Chicago I didn't think it was worse driving up for it alone. I made the trip early morning to sand valley for 36 and back multiple times and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. 

[Argonne69]

Added Yale GC last Friday. 'Probably one of the best, if not the best, college courses I've played, but not sure it's a Top 100 course. Conditioning was spotty. Greens were a blast. Still a must play before the upcoming Gil Hanse renovation.

 

 

Full photo set: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ie2nak1iqhfmpzs/AAB4Rl93438-YDnhetTcEHPQa?dl=0

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Argonne69

[Browns71213]

Played 17 of them. McLemore was a great addition to the list!

[JLo_73]

7 of the top 10 (missing Pinehurst, Kiawah (was there in Feb but didn't play) and Shadow Creek.   Will have played 22 of top 100 by mid July (adding Edgewood and Grizzly Ranch).   Went to the Golf Magazine and have played 24 of their courses.  Like some I believe that Bandon Trails is underrated and leaving We Ko Pa (i would argue both courses) off GD list feels off. 

 

Aiming to get to Pinehurst/MidPines, Northern Michigan, Nebraska and newer Wisco courses in next 2 year with goal to get to having played 50 in the next 5 years

Edited June 13, 2022 by JLo_73

[sabram]

12 hours ago, Argonne69 said:

but not sure it's a Top 100 course.

I have no doubt Yale is a top 100 course. It is a strategic masterpiece with great bunkering, great greens on a great piece of land. I'd rather play there again than most of the 40+ other top 100 courses I've played.

[vallygolf]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:29 AM, ode said:

What are the mags using as criteria to rank Lawsonia so high?   and those who say "overrated" are you using non-golf course elements as factors (range, clubhouse, accommodations, location)?

 

Selfishly I wish Lawsonia had not soared up the rankings as there used to be a day where I could go play twilight for $35.  That day is gone!  Mags are ranking it high, people play it and say it's overrated🤔.  

All have pretty specific criteria, but for most if the course can be classified as: "Golden Age", "firm and fast", "classic design", with no houses, then automatically they are considered higher caliber.  Lawsonia fits all these boxes and will be rated due to its opening date more than merit.  A fine course, but truly overrated.  Desert courses (even architecturally superior ones) dont fit this niche and so are typically passed over.  Not saying right or wrong, it just undeniably IS.

[StudentGolfer4]

1 hour ago, vallygolf said:

All have pretty specific criteria, but for most if the course can be classified as: "Golden Age", "firm and fast", "classic design", with no houses, then automatically they are considered higher caliber.  Lawsonia fits all these boxes and will be rated due to its opening date more than merit.  A fine course, but truly overrated.  Desert courses (even architecturally superior ones) dont fit this niche and so are typically passed over.  Not saying right or wrong, it just undeniably IS.

I get what you’re saying, and Golf tends to gives higher rankings to golden age courses than the other 2-3 publications. I haven’t played Lawsonia so I can’t comment on it specifically.
 

I’m curious what desert courses you consider architecturally superior. The ones that could have an argument to me are Sand Hallow, Desert Forest, Gamble Sands, and Stone Canyon. We-Ko-Pa? To be fair, I’m not sure that superior is the word that describes those listed. Maybe architecturally on par (no pun intended), with other top courses? It’s possible Whisper Rock and Estancia could be lauded for great architecture but I’m not so sure that’s accurate either. They seem to be loved based more on lack of access and club culture than the course(s) themselves. A lot of these courses simply suffer from lack of width and narrow playing corridors. It’s not the architects fault but only so much can be done in a desert. When I think of desert golf it is dramatic but the design quality is usually few and far between. 
 

I hear Cabo very well might have the best desert golf around but I’m much less familiar with it. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by StudentGolfer4
Added we ko pa

[vallygolf]

 "A lot of these courses simply suffer from lack of width and narrow playing corridors. It’s not the architects fault but only so much can be done in a desert. When I think of desert golf it is dramatic but the design quality is usually few and far between." 

 

 

I think this thought process is pervasive and incorrect.  In my opinion Saguaro is superior to Lawsonia Links and Cog hill #4 in most ways architecturally.  I could probably make the case for 20-30 other more highly rated courses that Saguaro is superior to.  From a purely architectural standpoint there are many desert courses "on par" with other highly rated courses that for lack of criteria above get no love.  I didnt always feel this way, but after playing a significant chunk of the best of the best, I think the designs hold up very well.  I find far more width in playing corridor in the desert than at most any non desert destination.  IMO this would be a detraction (the width) of desert golf, not a plus.  Not sure how you quantify desert golf as narrow.

Edited June 14, 2022 by vallygolf

[Argonne69]

Saguaro narrow? Lol. For over 12 years it was the only course I managed to find 14 fairways. 

 

[StudentGolfer4]

2 hours ago, vallygolf said:

 "A lot of these courses simply suffer from lack of width and narrow playing corridors. It’s not the architects fault but only so much can be done in a desert. When I think of desert golf it is dramatic but the design quality is usually few and far between." 

 

 

I think this thought process is pervasive and incorrect.  In my opinion Saguaro is superior to Lawsonia Links and Cog hill #4 in most ways architecturally.  I could probably make the case for 20-30 other more highly rated courses that Saguaro is superior to.  From a purely architectural standpoint there are many desert courses "on par" with other highly rated courses that for lack of criteria above get no love.  I didnt always feel this way, but after playing a significant chunk of the best of the best, I think the designs hold up very well.  I find far more width in playing corridor in the desert than at most any non desert destination.  IMO this would be a detraction (the width) of desert golf, not a plus.  Not sure how you quantify desert golf as narrow.

Fair enough. Obviously there are exceptions to everything and that’s why I included most and didn’t say all desert courses. I also listed Saguaro as a desert course that most consider to be architecturally sound. 
 

I am curious what other desert courses you feel this same way about?   Bonus points if they’re available to the public. Not saying there aren’t some that should be ranked top 100 or that they aren’t sometimes underrated. Just curious which ones you feel are good and distinguish themselves from a design standpoint. 

[The Pearl]

Quick interjection:

 

 

Passed through Gothenburg, NE and finally played WildHorse.

 

Not sure where it is ranked but I suspect if it were not in Gotheburg it would be much higher. 

 

Played with two nice local retiree members.  Population 2400.  Membership is 1K a year.

 

While I am certainly not in Argonne's league, I have been around to a few courses and WildHorse has to be the best conditioned course I have ever stepped foot on. The fact this is a muni in the middle of nowhere in this kind of shape is mind blowing.

[vallygolf]

1 hour ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

Fair enough. Obviously there are exceptions to everything and that’s why I included most and didn’t say all desert courses. I also listed Saguaro as a desert course that most consider to be architecturally sound. 
 

I am curious what other desert courses you feel this same way about?   Bonus points if they’re available to the public. Not saying there aren’t some that should be ranked top 100 or that they aren’t sometimes underrated. Just curious which ones you feel are good and distinguish themselves from a design standpoint. 

OK, against my better judgement Ill bite:)....  It also matters if you are defining desert golf strictly as a golf course that is built in a desert climate.  Other definitions exist that change the list.  Estancia, Whisper Rock Upper, Desert Forest, Desert Highlands, and Desert Mountain Renegade are all superior architectural courses and deserve consideration for a top 100 ranking.  IMO Desert forest is the best of the bunch, and the grandfather of true desert golf.  I played CC of Birmingham a few weeks back, loved everything about it, great course, wonderful property, strong pedigree (Ross, Jones, Dye), and I dont think it is as strong as any of those I have listed from a design and architecture standpoint.  Take any of the other 35 best in state in Arizona and I think they are strong contenders against CC of Birmingham which is ranked #200 on the Golf Digest greatest list  (That is why I use it as an example).  The margin for distinguishing greatness from #75-#300 is so small.  My point isnt to pan CC of Birmingham, to the contrary, it is a magnificent course.  The point is from a strictly architectural standpoint there are 75 desert courses on par or greater than CC of Birmingham IMO.  The difference is "Golden Age", "classic design", firm and fast, and devoid of houses.  There are exactly 3 desert designs in the GD top 100.  It has more to do with golfers dislike of desert golf (miss the grass and you are dead, and bermuda rough is gnarly) than for actual architectural merit.  

Edited June 14, 2022 by vallygolf