Hale Irwin

[Greg_B]

41 minutes ago, shanx said:

I was at that second "high fiving" tournament win in 1990 at the Westchester Country Club, we followed him most of that day. I remember that he had the reputation as a jerk, but he seemed to have lightened up a little after those two unexpected back to back wins. He was very talkative, almost jovial that Sunday...

 

 

OT, but I do wish that Westchester could get an event back. I always used to really enjoy watching the Westchester Classic from there. Such a cool course.

[shanx]

21 minutes ago, Greg_B said:

OT, but I do wish that Westchester could get an event back. I always used to really enjoy watching the Westchester Classic from there. Such a cool course.

 

Yeah, I wonder what happened to that tournament. I know the pros loved playing it, many of the stars would play it every year. I'm guessing its too short of a course for the pros?

[Shilgy]

On 4/22/2022 at 5:08 PM, KizIsTheMan said:

Not sure what the criteria is for away Ryder Cups, but for home Ryder Cups the US team prefers PGA Champions. Stricker was a lock for Whistling Straits, but if you look at every Ryder Cup captain for a competition on US soil from 2004-16 they were PGA Champions. I think Tiger is locked in for 2025 IMO. No way Phil captains anytime soon

Agree on the normal criteria.  Really makes the skipping of two time PGA champ Larry Nelson even more odd.

[chillybilly]

Saw Hale almost win the Memorial in the early 90s - ended up in a playoff against Kenny Perry which Perry won.

 

That, unfortunately, was also what seemed to be the early stages of drunken attendees - I won't even call them fans - screaming like idiots after every shot. One idiot kept screaming Hale's name as he was in the 18th fairway causing him to back off and ultimately hit a poor shot. At Jack's event of all places.

 

 

[wombat_vortex]

I got into golf in the late 90's, right when Hale was winning all those Senior Tour events.  Really liked his swing and tried to copy it when I was a kid.

[BrianMcG]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:14 AM, Big Cat 3 said:

Well yes, not the most personable guy ... golf was a business to him  just a way to make a living 

 

Great story ;

Mark O’Meara was in his rookie year and was paired with Irwin in final group on final day. O’Meara played terrible that day and was walking up the 18th and said to Irwin “ Hey, sorry I played so poorly today, Hale “  Irwin looks at him and says “ The sooner you figure out I don’t give a f*** how you play ... the better off you will be out here “ and kept walking. 

That was when Omera was an amateur playing in the US Open the opening rounds. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by BrianMcG

[woodriff]

A swing very much like Tom Watson. Swing in a barrel and good bye back problems. 

[mjtoal]

On 4/23/2022 at 4:14 AM, dcfas said:

Faldo always reminded me of Irwin. 

 

Good point. I can't stand either of them. 

[Motoboss]

As a member at the time I was standing by the t-box in 1994 at the Brickyard Crossing Championship second round when someone asked Irwin how the liked the new Pete Dye designed course, he responded “it’s a chip and putt and sucks, I’m here for the money”.

 

Disliked him every since

[Yuck]

My memory of watching Hale play was at the 1976 FL Citrus Open, which used to be at Rio Pinar, before it evolved into the Bay Hill event.  I was following Jim Dent around, amazed at how far he hit it back then.  I then moved to the Irwin group and watched his surgical fade, which was miles shorter, get the job done.  It was a clinic on how precision and course management could get the job done.

[Ferguson]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:09 AM, mjtoal said:

 

Good point. I can't stand either of them. 

 

Faldo with that accent and Irwin with those glasses and that's just for starters. 

 

[Forged4ever]

Was already on the Senior Tour when he become a "winning machine???"

 

GTFOH😂😂😂!!!!!

 

He won TWENTY PGA Tour events and many of those were during a period when Jack, Lee, Tom & Gary were dominating(Mr. Palmer was in his twilight and not winning anything), made a DECADE'S worth of Ryder Cups(5-0 team, 13-5-2 individual record), that's FIVE for the newbs, won THREE US Opens, considered THE toughest Major to win, with his final Victory at the age of 45yo, with his last Ryder Cup the following year at 46yo, where he halved with Bernhard Langer when Langer missed the 6'er on 18 at Kiawah in the final match, giving the US one of its greatest Cup victories in my life time. 
 

For you kids for who it's only a by-line in Wikipedia, go back and watch it. It's well worth your time😉

 

He was a 2-Time All-Big 8 defensive back(free safety) and Co-Captain, and hands down one of THE finest, if not THE finest athlete to ever Play the Tour.

 

The original FIGJAM????

 

WTF???

 

If I had to chose a Player that reminded me of Hale, I would say Curtis Strange, though Hale won a few more Tourmeys and one more major, however I would put em both in the same group. Tough, gritty, didn't give an inch in their Play Players, and while you might beat em, they weren't gonna beat themselves.

 

I forgot initially though Hale also made the HoF prior to his Senior career.

 

I get that everyone gets an opinion, but WTF😂😂😂

 

I still Love Ya🥰, it's just that this stuff is all bullsh*t💩😂😂

 

Have a Great Week My Friends👊
RP

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Forged4ever

[Socrates]

42 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Was already on the Senior Tour when he become a "winning machine???"

 

GTFOH😂😂😂!!!!!

 

He won TWENTY PGA Tour events and many of those were during a period when Jack, Lee, Tom & Gary were dominating(Mr. Palmer was in his twilight and not winning anything), made a DECADE'S worth of Ryder Cups(5-0 team, 13-5-2 individual record), that's FIVE for the newbs, won THREE US Opens, considered THE toughest Major to win, with his final Victory at the age of 45yo, with his last Ryder Cup the following year at 46yo, where he halved with Bernhard Langer when Langer missed the 6'er on 18 at Kiawah in the final match, giving the US one of its greatest Cup victories in my life time. 
 

For you kids for who it's only a by-line in Wikipedia, go back and watch it. It's well worth your time😉

 

He was a 2-Time All-Big 8 defensive back(free safety) and Co-Captain, and hands down one of THE finest, if not THE finest athlete to ever Play the Tour.

 

The original FIGJAM????

 

WTF???

 

If I had to chose a Player that reminded me of Hale, I would say Curtis Strange, though Hale won a few more Tourmeys and one more major, however I would put em both in the same group. Tough, gritty, didn't give an inch in their Play Players, and you might beat em, however they weren't gonna beat themselves.

 

I get that everyone gets an opinion, but WTF😂😂😂

 

I still Love Ya🥰, it's just that this stuff is all bullsh*t💩😂😂

 

Have a Great Week My Friends👊
RP

 

 

See, when you parse out someone's comments without the context of the statement, it becomes a bastardization of what they said.  

 

His first 10 years on the Sr. Tour he won 44 times.   Almost 4X as much as he won on the Big Tour.  So my statement is accurate. 

He won a lot, but all the attention was still focused on Jack, Arnie, Gary and Tom W.   "Oh yeah, Irwin won this week, but let's talk about Jack."

 

And yes, he did come across as a figjam, to me.  And apparently to others that commented on this thread.

 

 

And yes, you are entitled to your opinion.  I just don't agree with it.  

[Forged4ever]

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

See, when you parse out someone's comments without the context of the statement, it becomes a bastardization of what they said.  

 

His first 10 years on the Sr. Tour he won 44 times.   Almost 4X as much as he won on the Big Tour.  So my statement is accurate. 

He won a lot, but all the attention was still focused on Jack, Arnie, Gary and Tom W.   "Oh yeah, Irwin won this week, but let's talk about Jack."

 

And yes, he did come across as a figjam, to me.  And apparently to others that commented on this thread.

 

 

And yes, you are entitled to your opinion.  I just don't agree with it.  

Yes, Hale dominated the senior Tour, similar in his early Champions Tour domination to Langer's, who won far faaaaaaar less on the PGA Tour than his geriatric rebirth, though I was not speaking to Irwin's Champion's Tour performance, only on his PGA Tour performance. 
 

If the FIGJAM comparison is a personal comparison, having met, Played with and spoken to Hale Irwin, I couldn't disagree more vehemently, as he is a reserved low keyed Classy Gentleman. I thought amazingly so as an incident that happened with a fan(club member) that I would have blown my top, and Hale just smiled and walked from the green to the next tee. It was on his mind enough that 11 holes later, walking up 18 fairway, he asked me not to say anything to the member as it was a practice round(for the Champions event at the club across the street) and didn't matter to him. Only out of respect for Hale did I STFU cuz I was still steamin about it, as he obviously noticed, lolol.

 

If the comparison is as a Player, as in had FIGster not Played in Tiger's era, he would've dominated even more and probably doubled his Major count, much as if Hale had come up through the next generation, say the mid-late 80's through late 1990's, instead of in Jack & Tom's era, he too would have probably doubled his count, then you're spot on. On the golf course that was an excellent analogy, though I took it to mean personally.

 

Apologies if that is not how you intended it👊

 

Regarding judging legitimacy of one's comments, posts or opinions by the number of 👍's, 🏆's or the herd's🐑🐑 reaction to one's comment/opinion, just as in my real world, where  I don't give two flyin f***s if I'm the only individual in the room with a specific opinion, I care even less about in environment whereby full grown @ss men hide behind a keyboard & screen, using fictitious UN's and fake a avatars to post things that they woikd never ever say belly to belly or sitting around a table with a dozen other guys/gals.

 

I am not directing this paragraph above at you cuz one, I consider you one of the top posting members and I like and respect your opinions, whether I agree with em or not!! You're one of the good guys🤙

 

You obviously believe what you say, all that I'm saying is that Hale Irwin was known as a "closer" who was a decade long Ryder Cupper, and you can count on one hand the number of Tour Boys who Played in 5+, ten years worth of Cups. That's pretty heady company in my book, even if I am the only guy in the room who thinks so😄

 

Just my .03 worth👊

 

Later Ed: Ok, following my earlier posts, Madison informed me that I should disclose that I had somewhat of a personal relationship with Hale, as we would stay in touch, I would Play myriad times in Hale's annual St. Louis Children's Hospital Golf Benefit, staying with Hale, and Hale(and his wife, Sally) would be my guest in three of our big Member/Guest Invitationals. A funny aside is that one year he was #3 in Major winners amongst the guests😂😂. Mr. Palmer and Ernie Els were in the field, lol. I don't see how this shades my opinion cuz his Playing & Ryder Cup numbers were what they were, however it's easier to post this lil caveat than to disagree with Maddie😜🤪 RP II 

 

Stay Well My Friend🍻

RP

Edited May 31, 2022 by Forged4ever

[gvogel]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:10 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

Built like a defensive back...

And who says golfers aren't athletes?

[Socrates]

5 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Yes, Hale dominated the senior Tour, similar in his early Champions Tour domination to Langer's, who won far faaaaaaar less on the PGA Tour than his geriatric rebirth, though I was not speaking to Irwin's Champion's Tour performance, only on his PGA Tour performance. 
 

If the FIGJAM comparison is a personal comparison, having met, Played with and spoken to Hale Irwin, I couldn't disagree more vehemently, as he is a reserved low keyed Classy Gentleman. I thought amazingly so as an incident that happened with a fan(club member) that I would have blown my top, and Hale just smiled and walked from the green to the next tee. It was on his mind enough that 11 holes later, walking up 18 fairway, he asked me not to say anything to the member as it was a practice round(for the Champions event at the club across the street) and didn't matter to him. Only out of respect for Hale did I STFU cuz I was still steamin about it, as he obviously noticed, lolol.

 

If the comparison is as a Player, as in had FIGster not Played in Tiger's era, he would've dominated even more and probably doubled his Major count, much as if Hale had come up through the next generation, say the mid-late 80's through late 1990's, instead of in Jack & Tom's era, he too would have probably doubled his count, then you're spot on. On the golf course that was an excellent analogy, though I took it to mean personally.

 

Apologies if that is not how you intended it👊

 

Regarding judging legitimacy of one's comments, posts or opinions by the number of 👍's, 🏆's or the herd's🐑🐑 reaction to one's comment/opinion, just as in my real world, where  I don't give two flyin f***s if I'm the only individual in the room with a specific opinion, I care even less about in environment whereby full grown @ss men hide behind a keyboard & screen, using fictitious UN's and fake a avatars to post things that they woikd never ever say belly to belly or sitting around a table with a dozen other guys/gals.

 

I am not directing this paragraph above at you cuz one, I consider you one of the top posting members and I like and respect your opinions, whether I agree with em or not!! You're one of the good guys🤙

 

You obviously believe what you say, all that I'm saying is that Hale Irwin was known as a "closer" who was a decade long Ryder Cupper, and you can count on one hand the number of Tour Boys who Played in 5+, ten years worth of Cups. That's pretty heady company in my book, even if I am the only guy in the room who thinks so😄

 

Just my .03 worth👊

 

Later Ed: Ok, following my earlier posts, Madison informed me that I should disclose that I had somewhat of a personal relationship with Hale, as we would stay in touch, I would Play myriad times in Hale's annual St. Louis Children's Hospital Golf Benefit, staying with Hale, and Hale(and his wife, Sally) would be my guest in three of our big Member/Guest Invitationals. A funny aside is that one year he was #3 in Major winners amongst the guests😂😂. Mr. Palmer and Ernie Els were in the field, lol. I don't see how this shades my opinion cuz his Playing & Ryder Cup numbers were what they were, however it's easier to post this lil caveat than to disagree with Maddie😜🤪 RP II 

 

Stay Well My Friend🍻

RP

Appreciate the story of Hale and not being as perceived.  I will defer to your opinion of him since you know him on a personal level and I am obviously mistaken as to him being a figjam.  That is what happens when you only see the one side (TV) of a person.  

 

I was a little curt this morning, so my apologies for that.   Hopefully no harm, no foul.  

 

As with many players, who knows what their ultimate legacy would have been if Jack or Tiger hadn't overshadowed their careers.  

[Forged4ever]

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

Appreciate the story of Hale and not being as perceived.  I will defer to your opinion of him since you know him on a personal level and I am obviously mistaken as to him being a figjam.  That is what happens when you only see the one side (TV) of a person.  

 

I was a little curt this morning, so my apologies for that.   Hopefully no harm, no foul.  

 

As with many players, who knows what their ultimate legacy would have been if Jack or Tiger hadn't overshadowed their careers.  

Well, Madison told me that I got defensive outa the gate, cuz really, and even before I got to know Hale, I'd seen him in our locker room and on the course and he was very polite, Gentlemanly and laid back, versus, say Norman, who was a dbag to the locker room, Mens' Card Room Staff and our PGA Assts, as was Couples.

 

Regarding the Cup, in later discussions, he felt that what really hurt him for the Ryder Cup Captaincy, cuz let's face it, he won the USGA's and the USA's🇺🇸 Most storied Title three times, was a 5-Time Ryder Cupper with a superb Playing record along with his teams bein 5-0, was that one, didn't have a "rabbi(his word)" within either the Press or the PGA hierarchy and secondly, he did not feel that it was appropriate to to "brag" or politic for the position. I mentioned what had been said to me as a teenager, that if it is truthful and accurate, then it is not bragging at all, just stating fact, and through apparently even his wife prodded him to speak up, he said simply that that was not in his personality. 

Madison thought that your comparison to FIGJAM was Playing wise, on the course, as much as if Tiger had not been around, Phil woulda won a few more Majors and Tourneys, cuz without Jack & Tom, Hale probably would have snagged a few more Majors along with regular Tour Victories. So if that was your comparison, then as I said early, it was spot on and accurate🤙
 

I don't rag Phil/FIGJAM cuz while I do not know him at all, never met him, I do know Nathan Smith extremely well, and while I'm not gonna get into the stories here, Phil did some things and offered to do some things for both Nathan and his family leading up to and during Nathan's four trips to Augusta/Masters, that well, they were way above and beyond. Amazingly to me, Phil never ever spoke a word about them outside of he and Nathan when it would have been easy to mention them publicly and really not even look like he was tootin his own horn or more appropriately, bein FIGJAM, so, even with his knucklehead comments over the past 6-8 months, I've gotta lot of respect for him cuz if Nathan Smith, who's far and away the Classiest Am that I've ever met, says that Phil's a good kindhearted person, and his actions with Nathan spoke louder than FIGJAM ever could, well, he's good by me. That's why I've never jumped into the FIGJAM threads/posts.

 

Now Norman or Couples?????

 

I'll come back from the friggin dead to rip those two narcissistic pr*cks😂😂😂

Madison also thinks that the age at which I met Hale, when he was 48yo, was relevant as he may not have been the same individual that he was in his 20's & 30's. She has a point there, and it's possible that's why he was sometimes what I thought was "too nice," if that makes sense. Who knows, that's just my scrambled thinking, lol🤷🏻‍♂️ I will be speaking with him in a few days(we speak on our birthdays) and I'll ask him about it. I'll ask him if he minds if I post his response and if not(he knows of WRX and sometimes reads the articles, though he didn't know about the forum), I'll post his response.

 

Have a Great Summer Season Brotha👊
RP

Edited May 31, 2022 by Forged4ever

[Forged4ever]

On 4/22/2022 at 7:22 PM, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

People in Colorado will understand.

As will anyone from the 1970's-1980's that followed the Tour🤙
 

Cheers🍻

RP

[Forged4ever]

On 4/22/2022 at 4:42 PM, Greg_B said:

Years ago I remember reading either a magazine piece or something in a book where another player contrasted Irwin with the rest of the players on Tour. I wish I could remember who said it. In essence it was that most Tour members did what they do for a variety of reasons - the celebrity, the travel, the connections, whatever - but for Irwin it was only about the money. He certainly seemed to be very determined and businesslike in his approach to the game, but I wonder if he ever enjoyed it much.

He was in it for much more than the money and he enjoyed himself very much, especially when he won, which he stated was the second greatest feeling that he'd ever felt, lol. His wife, Sally, was with us when he made that comment so who know's how the ranking would shake out if she were not present😂😂🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Stay Well👊
RP

[crazygolfnut]

My opinion of Hale is not very good.  I was a marshal at a Senior major event in 2013 and stationed at the green for all four rounds.  Every day when he approached the green and discovered his ball was not in the correct location on the green, he threw his club and yelled the “F Bomb”.  (he did this all four rounds)  Not very sportsman like especially with children standing around watching him. Of course, they interviewed him on the Golf Channel after a round and he was all smiles and came across as a very likable nice guy.  Comparing his interview to his on-course persona was like looking at a person with two completely different personalities.  Really changed my mind on him.  

[Soloman1]

In the end, does it really matter what motivates a person to succeed, as long as it isn’t illegal? Motivation is internal, but the catalyst to it can come from something or someone external.

 

Professional golf is entertainment. Professional golfers enter counties on an entertainment visa. I don’t begrudge him for his motivation, whether it’s money, anger at his performance or whatever. Most of the highly successful people in business are not smiling, calm, even-keeled people. They can be monsters in the atmosphere of their business and different away from it. And not too many people, with the possible exception of professional wrestlers, want to portray themselves on camera as angry hotheads. Entertainers have a brand.

 

I’m not piling on, but there’s a funny story about Hale Irwin playing in a pro-am and he said nothing to his (paying for the experience of playing in a pro-am) amateur partners during the round. They weren’t in contention until somehow things changed and Hale had a chance to make some money near the end of the round.

 

All of a sudden, he was interested in his partners and one needed to make a putt for Hale to make even more. He coached the player on the break of the putt.

 

The amateur stepped up to the ball, turned around and knocked it off the green in the opposite direction.

 

I don’t know if it’s true, but it sure is funny. 🙂

 

 

[TiScape]

On 4/22/2022 at 12:16 PM, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

No one ever talks of him.  Where does he rank historically?  How does his swing rate?  The guy won 20 times on tour with 3 US Open victories and 45 times on the Champions Tour with 7 majors.  

Bleacher report has him as 44th greatest of all time so it must be true. You’re welcome ☺️ 

[tatertot]

22 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Bleacher report has him as 44th greatest of all time so it must be true. You’re welcome ☺️ 

Well ... there's 3 pages we ain't getting back. Thanks for nothing.

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

9 hours ago, TiScape said:

Bleacher report has him as 44th greatest of all time so it must be true. You’re welcome ☺️ 

DAMN!!  I had him at 39!

[DHtruman]

On 4/22/2022 at 3:33 PM, Socrates said:

Was already on the Sr's Tour when he really became a winning machine.  Really bloomed late in life and was always an "also ran" in the years of Palmer, Player, Watson and Jack.  Kind of got the impression that he was the original figjam.  I could be wrong there, but that's how he came off to me from afar.

More in the line of Watson. Arnold was in his decline, Player would soon be in his decline, and Jack would go another 10 years, but not as the top PGA golfer.

[3whacker]

I remember one time they were asking the top players who they wanted putting if a big prize or tournament on the line (pre TW) and of course the usual names Casper,Crenshaw, Jack and even Watson....the got to Irwin and asked him and without blinking he said I want me putting and walked away

[bcjim]

I only recall his senior tour days and he was dominant.  It was a clinic every week. I'd actually watch that stuff. Seemed like it was often on tgc in the evenings. 

[bsuwara]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:19 PM, Forged4ever said:

Well, Madison told me that I got defensive outa the gate, cuz really, and even before I got to know Hale, I'd seen him in our locker room and on the course and he was very polite, Gentlemanly and laid back, versus, say Norman, who was a dbag to the locker room, Mens' Card Room Staff and our PGA Assts, as was Couples.

 

Regarding the Cup, in later discussions, he felt that what really hurt him for the Ryder Cup Captaincy, cuz let's face it, he won the USGA's and the USA's🇺🇸 Most storied Title three times, was a 5-Time Ryder Cupper with a superb Playing record along with his teams bein 5-0, was that one, didn't have a "rabbi(his word)" within either the Press or the PGA hierarchy and secondly, he did not feel that it was appropriate to to "brag" or politic for the position. I mentioned what had been said to me as a teenager, that if it is truthful and accurate, then it is not bragging at all, just stating fact, and through apparently even his wife prodded him to speak up, he said simply that that was not in his personality. 

Madison thought that your comparison to FIGJAM was Playing wise, on the course, as much as if Tiger had not been around, Phil woulda won a few more Majors and Tourneys, cuz without Jack & Tom, Hale probably would have snagged a few more Majors along with regular Tour Victories. So if that was your comparison, then as I said early, it was spot on and accurate🤙
 

I don't rag Phil/FIGJAM cuz while I do not know him at all, never met him, I do know Nathan Smith extremely well, and while I'm not gonna get into the stories here, Phil did some things and offered to do some things for both Nathan and his family leading up to and during Nathan's four trips to Augusta/Masters, that well, they were way above and beyond. Amazingly to me, Phil never ever spoke a word about them outside of he and Nathan when it would have been easy to mention them publicly and really not even look like he was tootin his own horn or more appropriately, bein FIGJAM, so, even with his knucklehead comments over the past 6-8 months, I've gotta lot of respect for him cuz if Nathan Smith, who's far and away the Classiest Am that I've ever met, says that Phil's a good kindhearted person, and his actions with Nathan spoke louder than FIGJAM ever could, well, he's good by me. That's why I've never jumped into the FIGJAM threads/posts.

 

Now Norman or Couples?????

 

I'll come back from the friggin dead to rip those two narcissistic pr*cks😂😂😂

Madison also thinks that the age at which I met Hale, when he was 48yo, was relevant as he may not have been the same individual that he was in his 20's & 30's. She has a point there, and it's possible that's why he was sometimes what I thought was "too nice," if that makes sense. Who knows, that's just my scrambled thinking, lol🤷🏻‍♂️ I will be speaking with him in a few days(we speak on our birthdays) and I'll ask him about it. I'll ask him if he minds if I post his response and if not(he knows of WRX and sometimes reads the articles, though he didn't know about the forum), I'll post his response.

 

Have a Great Summer Season Brotha👊
RP

Maybe it is just me, but I always love to hear Richard's stories and insights!!

[Choclab]

I saw Hale at the first tournament I ever went to, Colonial, in 1990 or so.  Was surprised that although lean like all golfers were then, he was a little taler and had a bigger frame than I expected.  Guess that's where the football player part came in.  And I could see how he could seem like kind of a jerk, because he didn't seem to interact with his fellow competitors very much, and I remember some gesturing and scowling.

 

But part of that is just the generation he came from, plus probably some Kansas toughness.  Those guys were outwardly more competitive and didn't mind showing it compared to today.  That was before guys were trained to create an image (brand-building, etc.) that was more likable and media-friendly.

 

Plus he was the one endorsing the FG-51 in a classic ad back then with Payne Steward and Daly (IIRC), so he gets a little pass.