LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[jdl]

22 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

I don't follow why the team aspect is an issue.  I watched yesterday and I saw guys who were well out of contention individually gutting it out the last couple of holes because their scores meant something on the team front.

 

Is that a bad thing?  Is the OWGR org telling us it is far better for guys to coast or mail it in when they are out of the top ten individually coming down the stretch?

 

Maybe I am completely missing it, but is there a reason for a player to not play well due to the team aspect?  How is the team part of it somehow undermining the integrity of the individual stroke play competition?

 

 

 

Not sure if "it's a bad thing" or not, but OWGR is ranking players based on their performance as individuals. And there's the aspect that these guys know their score affects the team, whether the team is in contention or out of it. Related to the other part which is the cut...

 

22 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

 

I have said before (either this thread or another) the OWGR would do well to look at the rationale for their criteria.  Some it it makes good sense and should be upheld.  A cut to me serves no purpose.  54 hole events are already accounted for so no issues there.  Mathematically this is not difficult.  The "team aspect" is of no consequence.

 

 

 

I doubt we'll agree on this but I do think the cut serves a few purposes. One is simple logistics, less concern about scheduling over the weekend with fewer golfers. But more importantly, it does add an element of pressure to the event knowing if you don't perform you're not going to reap the benefits.

 

9 hours ago, HomaComa said:

Thing is SOF is determined by the top 50 players in the field.  LIV’s got a grand total of 5 players in the top 50 and they ain’t getting points any time soon for those 54 hole scrambles since they refuse to adhere to the simple requirements. I’d wager a decent amount of money that there’s gonna be 5 or less LIV golfers in the top 100 by the Masters next year. After the Open they aren’t getting any points til the Saudi International which takes place a full 7 months after the Open.

 

 

I think this is outdated, SOF has changed and uses strokes gained performance of the entire field.

[betarhoalphadelta]

22 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I don't follow why the team aspect is an issue.  I watched yesterday and I saw guys who were well out of contention individually gutting it out the last couple of holes because their scores meant something on the team front.

 

Is that a bad thing?  Is the OWGR org telling us it is far better for guys to coast or mail it in when they are out of the top ten individually coming down the stretch?

 

Maybe I am completely missing it, but is there a reason for a player to not play well due to the team aspect?  How is the team part of it somehow undermining the integrity of the individual stroke play competition?

 

 

From SI: https://www.si.com/golf/news/owgr-liv-golf-taking-time-on-a-decision-mike-whan-usga

 

Quote

 

Recently, LIV Golf was questioned about its team format, which seems to be a new concern. It undoubtedly stems from what occurred at the event in Orlando where Sebastian Munoz admitted afterward that his long birdie putt to tie Brooks Koepka on the final green was played with caution to protect his team’s score—which he did not want to jeopardize.

 

Golfers all the time play shots to protect rather than risk damage by going for something more. But doing so on behalf of a teammate was obviously going to cause concern. LIV has player bylaws which require them to give maximum effort. Still, that Munoz admission likely did not help.

 

 

If a team goal (cautiously lagging to avoid a three-putt to protect team score) interferes with an individual goal (aggressively stroking a birdie putt to move up the standings, even if it brings three-putt into play), then there's a problem. 

 

It's not that team golf causes a player to play worse. But it may cause them to do something that would be inconsistent with their own interests in pure individual play. Since OWGR is ranking individuals, that could be an issue. 

 

It's the same reason the Ryder Cup and President's Cup aren't ranked by OWGR. 

[geauxt]

I wonder when OWGR will start awarding points to the Outlaw Tour 

[pingbling23]

4 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

DJ was 41 in the world rankings when he signed with LIV. 11/48 were in the top 50 your numbers are completely wrong

DJ wasn’t ranked 41 when he joined LIV.

[jimecherry]

4 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

DJ was 41 in the world rankings when he signed with LIV. 11/48 were in the top 50 your numbers are completely wrong

ok ill humor you by looking it up

dj was 17 in the world at the end of june last year so i was wrong

also heres a list 

abraham ancer 24 august 22
Paul Casey 26 august 22
bryson dechambeau 37 august 22
talor gooch 38 june 22
dustin johnson 17 june 22
brooks koepka 26 august 22
sebastion munoz 50 june 22
joaquin niemann 19 august 22
mito pereira 49 august 22
thomas pieters 37 febuary 23 
patrik reed 50 august 22
cam smith 3 august 22
harold varner 46 august 22
jason kokrak 38 august 22
marc lieshman 51 june 22
Louis Oosthuizen 21 june 22
 

15 is 10 short of most so i'm wrong there aswell ;}

[subrew]

If you have a chance, hit up the WITB posts from the PGA.  So many cool mixed-brand sets.  Phil's is pretty wild.

[me05501]

In my mind the LIV argument for OWGR points is totally one-sided and illogical. It's basically "we want points, we're very good at golf and we always earned points previously, so come on and be cool mannnnn!"

 

If they really wanted to earn points they'd modify the event format to match the other tours where points are awarded. That would leave the OWGR committee without much of a leg to stand on. They conveniently ignore the huge discrepancies between the way they run events versus other Tours. That's a gaping hole in their case. 

[CDM]

I agree LIV knew it could take over a year to get it figured out so accept it.  That was always known.  

 

I also agree with Paul McGinley comments (and Rahm's) on the OWGR is messed up how it works right now.   

 

Will Zalatoris who I am huge fan of is good example.  He won the FedEX Jude Championship August of '22.  Since that it has been WB, 11, 36, CUT, 4, 53, 73, 59  and his last event played was in March of this year.  So not a great listing per se over the last 10 months and yes he is hurt sadly.   

 

The odd aspect is he moved to 7th in the world with the win at the JUDE yet he has only dropped to 9th now over 10 months which seems like he should of dropped more?  He played great in early 2022 but over the last 10 months he has not had to do anything to keep his top 10 ranking.  That seems odd you can go near a year with barely making cuts and not playing for 5+ months in that time frame and not slide down more then 2 spots?

 

Edit: I should note Will did not play any events from Aug '22 until Jan '23 so missed 4+ months of play and has not played since March of '23 this year.  So  over the last 10 months with one good finish (4th) and not playing events for 5-6 months within the last 10 months he somehow only dropped 2 spots..?? Seems a little off........

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by CDM

[me05501]

2 hours ago, CDM said:

I agree LIV knew it could take over a year to get it figured out so accept it.  That was always known.  

 

I also agree with Paul McGinley comments (and Rahm's) on the OWGR is messed up how it works right now.   

 

Will Zalatoris who I am huge fan of is good example.  He won the FedEX Jude Championship August of '22.  Since that it has been WB, 11, 36, CUT, 4, 53, 73, 59  and his last event played was in March of this year.  So not a great listing per se over the last 10 months and yes he is hurt sadly.   

 

The odd aspect is he moved to 7th in the world with the win at the JUDE yet he has only dropped to 9th now over 10 months which seems like he should of dropped more?  He played great in early 2022 but over the last 10 months he has not had to do anything to keep his top 10 ranking.  That seems odd you can go near a year with barely making cuts and not playing for 5+ months in that time frame and not slide down more then 2 spots?

 

Edit: I should note Will did not play any events from Aug '22 until Jan '23 so missed 4+ months of play and has not played since March of '23 this year.  So  over the last 10 months with one good finish (4th) and not playing events for 5-6 months within the last 10 months he somehow only dropped 2 spots..?? Seems a little off........

 

 

Are the rules of the OWGR points system public? Seems like it would be easy to figure out this puzzle if so. Likely has to do with his status during his break to recover from his injury. One would assume there is some grace built into the system for players who are taking a break due to injury (up to a point at least).

[johnseg]

2 hours ago, CDM said:

I agree LIV knew it could take over a year to get it figured out so accept it.  That was always known.  

 

I also agree with Paul McGinley comments (and Rahm's) on the OWGR is messed up how it works right now.   

 

Will Zalatoris who I am huge fan of is good example.  He won the FedEX Jude Championship August of '22.  Since that it has been WB, 11, 36, CUT, 4, 53, 73, 59  and his last event played was in March of this year.  So not a great listing per se over the last 10 months and yes he is hurt sadly.   

 

The odd aspect is he moved to 7th in the world with the win at the JUDE yet he has only dropped to 9th now over 10 months which seems like he should of dropped more?  He played great in early 2022 but over the last 10 months he has not had to do anything to keep his top 10 ranking.  That seems odd you can go near a year with barely making cuts and not playing for 5+ months in that time frame and not slide down more then 2 spots?

 

Edit: I should note Will did not play any events from Aug '22 until Jan '23 so missed 4+ months of play and has not played since March of '23 this year.  So  over the last 10 months with one good finish (4th) and not playing events for 5-6 months within the last 10 months he somehow only dropped 2 spots..?? Seems a little off........

 

I have always had a problem with OWGR's as it never "seems" to be an accurate portrayal of who is the best. But at the end of the day that really isn't what it is supposed to do. It is a mathematical formula based upon data entered. In January of 2022 Louis Oosthuizen was ranked 11. I don't think anyone has ever thought of him as a top 10 player.

 

There are a ton of examples like WZ and LO. Someone has determined that the players need to be ranked and they have chosen this as the method, so it is what it is.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, CDM said:

I agree LIV knew it could take over a year to get it figured out so accept it.  That was always known.  

 

I also agree with Paul McGinley comments (and Rahm's) on the OWGR is messed up how it works right now.   

 

Will Zalatoris who I am huge fan of is good example.  He won the FedEX Jude Championship August of '22.  Since that it has been WB, 11, 36, CUT, 4, 53, 73, 59  and his last event played was in March of this year.  So not a great listing per se over the last 10 months and yes he is hurt sadly.   

 

The odd aspect is he moved to 7th in the world with the win at the JUDE yet he has only dropped to 9th now over 10 months which seems like he should of dropped more?  He played great in early 2022 but over the last 10 months he has not had to do anything to keep his top 10 ranking.  That seems odd you can go near a year with barely making cuts and not playing for 5+ months in that time frame and not slide down more then 2 spots?

 

Edit: I should note Will did not play any events from Aug '22 until Jan '23 so missed 4+ months of play and has not played since March of '23 this year.  So  over the last 10 months with one good finish (4th) and not playing events for 5-6 months within the last 10 months he somehow only dropped 2 spots..?? Seems a little off........

 

Many of the points he’s earned are still there but with few events played his divisor has gone down.  Only reason I can think of….

[Cincy_Ken]

5 hours ago, me05501 said:

In my mind the LIV argument for OWGR points is totally one-sided and illogical. It's basically "we want points, we're very good at golf and we always earned points previously, so come on and be cool mannnnn!"

 

If they really wanted to earn points they'd modify the event format to match the other tours where points are awarded. That would leave the OWGR committee without much of a leg to stand on. They conveniently ignore the huge discrepancies between the way they run events versus other Tours. That's a gaping hole in their case. 

 

Sure but if they're going to play it that way OWGR needs to be consistent.  No ranking points for limited field no cut PGA events either which they have had forever, Tour championship, Maui, etc.  No ranking points for hero. No ranking points for rain shortened 54 hole events.  If they were that strict with it I'd agree with their position.  Until they do I think it's silly to not give points.  The only reason they're doing it this way is to run out the clock; eventually they'll concede after all these guys have lost their status and they'll be for less points than the Latin America tour.  The goal is to get all of these guys who don't have long term exemptions through major wins out of the major events.

[jdl]

4 hours ago, CDM said:

I agree LIV knew it could take over a year to get it figured out so accept it.  That was always known.  

 

I also agree with Paul McGinley comments (and Rahm's) on the OWGR is messed up how it works right now.   

 

Will Zalatoris who I am huge fan of is good example.  He won the FedEX Jude Championship August of '22.  Since that it has been WB, 11, 36, CUT, 4, 53, 73, 59  and his last event played was in March of this year.  So not a great listing per se over the last 10 months and yes he is hurt sadly.   

 

The odd aspect is he moved to 7th in the world with the win at the JUDE yet he has only dropped to 9th now over 10 months which seems like he should of dropped more?  He played great in early 2022 but over the last 10 months he has not had to do anything to keep his top 10 ranking.  That seems odd you can go near a year with barely making cuts and not playing for 5+ months in that time frame and not slide down more then 2 spots?

 

Edit: I should note Will did not play any events from Aug '22 until Jan '23 so missed 4+ months of play and has not played since March of '23 this year.  So  over the last 10 months with one good finish (4th) and not playing events for 5-6 months within the last 10 months he somehow only dropped 2 spots..?? Seems a little off........

 

I think that's going to be a problem with any ranking system, i.e. how much to weigh recent performance vs past. And thrown in an injury to really complicate it. I'm guessing there would be similar examples under the "old" OWGR methodology as well, no system will be able to perfectly tracking performance of hundreds of golfers.

[Cactus Jack]

Nextstar CEO is pleased with the results. 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/cw-liv-golf-deal-led-194014999.html

 

Thought this was funny and appreciate the candor:

 

"Asked by Nathanson what the company has learned from broadcasting LIV so far, Sook quipped, “What we’ve learned is you probably don’t want to switch to the app with a three-man playoff with Dustin Johnson in it with three holes to go. But usage of the app on Sunday was up 340%, so life wasn’t all bad.”

[CDM]

If you did or did not watch LIV this weekend, the one thing I noticed locally was more advertising.   Interesting article on that today.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/cw-liv-golf-deal-led-194014999.html

 

NOW if they could learn how to not CUT out during a playoff....!!  🤣

[jdl]

 

[subrew]

46 minutes ago, CDM said:

If you did or did not watch LIV this weekend, the one thing I noticed locally was more advertising.   Interesting article on that today.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/cw-liv-golf-deal-led-194014999.html

 

NOW if they could learn how to not CUT out during a playoff....!!  🤣

 

We had no such cuts.  Our CW affiliate also owns the NBC and CBS stations, so apparently they are used to live sports events running long, and didn't switch over to whatever infomercial they had scheduled.  

[Cactus Jack]

44 minutes ago, CDM said:

If you did or did not watch LIV this weekend, the one thing I noticed locally was more advertising.   Interesting article on that today.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/cw-liv-golf-deal-led-194014999.html

 

NOW if they could learn how to not CUT out during a playoff....!!  🤣

 

I've seen billboards and heard radio plugs. Also, the commercials have gotten better. Mostly local businesses like law firms etc.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Many of the points he’s earned are still there but with few events played his divisor has gone down.  Only reason I can think of….

 

Yeah... It's more about average finish. Seems that not playing in any event (and having zero finish) is better for points than playing in an event and finishing badly.

 

Which is sort of different than FedEx cup points which aggregate, so playing in a lot of events with mediocre finishes helps you amass points. So grinding keeps building up your points relative to players who are staying home. 

 

A player like Will is the statistical outlier based upon having some high finishes, but then competing in few events due to injury. So the likely outcomes could have been:

1. He never had injuries, and (based on his trajectory) continued with a bunch of high finishes. In which case his rank would look correct.
2. He never had injuries, but his high finishes were a fluke and he started throwing up tons and tons of clunkers. In which case his rank would have fallen. 

I think #1 is more likely, quite frankly. 

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, jdl said:

 

The Twitter replies are interesting.

[idrive]

I've been asking about TV ratings for the last 2-3 exhibitions.

 

Crickets.

 

I think that speaks louder than any fib Norman comes up with.

[Gregakin]

3 hours ago, Cactus Jack said:

 

I've seen billboards and heard radio plugs. Also, the commercials have gotten better. Mostly local businesses like law firms etc.  

You say what...commercials 😮 

 

Thought commercial free golf was the big allure?

[bekgolf]

2 hours ago, Gregakin said:

You say what...commercials 😮 

 

Thought commercial free golf was the big allure?

No commercials no monies.  More commercials more monies. 

 

No interest, no commercials and no monies.  I complain about the commercials and "playing through" on the pga tour but the reality is the commercials are what makes it all possible for me to see.  I'm not sure how liv could survive without huge cash injections from an outside source.

[2bGood]

23 hours ago, jdl said:

 I'm guessing there would be similar examples under the "old" OWGR methodology as well, no system will be able to perfectly tracking performance of hundreds of golfers.

In this matter perfection is a matter of perspective and thus complexity unattainable. OWGR will continue to evolve and modify itself based on the needs of its founding members and governing board. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by 2bGood

[freeze16172002]

15 hours ago, Cincy_Ken said:

 

Sure but if they're going to play it that way OWGR needs to be consistent.  No ranking points for limited field no cut PGA events either which they have had forever, Tour championship, Maui, etc.  No ranking points for hero. No ranking points for rain shortened 54 hole events.  If they were that strict with it I'd agree with their position.  Until they do I think it's silly to not give points.  The only reason they're doing it this way is to run out the clock; eventually they'll concede after all these guys have lost their status and they'll be for less points than the Latin America tour.  The goal is to get all of these guys who don't have long term exemptions through major wins out of the major events.

How is that consistent? Liv events are closed 54 hole events with the same 48 players. There are no closed PGA tournaments, Tour championship or Maui every player earned their way into the field if you're good enough you play. Liv doesnt meet the requirements to earn ranking points, so the requirements should change for them?

Edited May 18, 2023 by freeze16172002

[smashdn]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:03 AM, Shilgy said:

As previously, repeatedly, mentioned the criteria for a “tour” to be included were created long before LIV existed.  

 

And after the other tours were created/formed.  The OWGR was created in the mold of what already existed.

 

Doesn't make it right or wrong, just need to understand that when we discuss the merits of specific OWGR criteria.  

 

Ham-bone effect in action.  Question why it is so and what purpose the criteria serves.  Don't get hung up on the criteria, understand the why criteria exists in the first place and accomplish that end.  If the end goal or purpose is met with a different method, that should be what is important.

[bscinstnct]

There’s no catalyst for higher ratings…besides signing more realy big names.

 

After viewership dip, LIV Golf has quietly stopped reporting TV ratings

 

In LIV’s most recent ratings reportin late March, the league showed audience numbers slumping by 24 percent week-over-week, from 537,000 average viewers in its season-opening broadcast in Mexico to 409,000 in its second event in Tucson, Ariz. LIV has conducted four events since Tucson, including a pair in Australia and Singapore that were shown on tape delay in the United States. LIV has not released data on any of those four events.

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-quietly-stopped-reporting-tv-ratings/?amp=1

 

[smashdn]

On 5/16/2023 at 8:52 AM, jdl said:

I doubt we'll agree on this but I do think the cut serves a few purposes. One is simple logistics, less concern about scheduling over the weekend with fewer golfers. But more importantly, it does add an element of pressure to the event knowing if you don't perform you're not going to reap the benefits.

 

Logistics I think we can throw out of the discussion correct?  That has no bearing on the merits for rewarding points.

 

If my other post gets approved, see what I say about the purpose of the criteria.  I don't disagree with the reasoning you provide for the cut, ie the added pressure, I don't know that that reasoning is integral to being able to reward OWGR points.  What I would say though, is there another method of getting to that end or creating that aspect without actually removing players from the field.  I think you could within LIV's round and team construct via not having those individual scores below "the cut line" count for individual placement in that final round.  Have them still play so their scores can count for the team part.  OWGR doesn't/shouldn't care about the team part at all.

 

I suspect [one of] the real purposes of the cut being an OWGR criteria, is that they do not want to award points, even fractions of points, just for showing up and "fogging a mirror."  You do and should actually have to show up and earn your points.  I can fully get behind that.  But LIV could, and should if they want the points, find a way to meet the intent.

[Ghost of Snead]

44 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

There’s no catalyst for higher ratings…besides signing more realy big names.

 

After viewership dip, LIV Golf has quietly stopped reporting TV ratings

 

In LIV’s most recent ratings reportin late March, the league showed audience numbers slumping by 24 percent week-over-week, from 537,000 average viewers in its season-opening broadcast in Mexico to 409,000 in its second event in Tucson, Ariz. LIV has conducted four events since Tucson, including a pair in Australia and Singapore that were shown on tape delay in the United States. LIV has not released data on any of those four events.

https://golf.com/news/liv-golf-quietly-stopped-reporting-tv-ratings/?amp=1

 

Since it's all quiet on the defection rumor front including here on WrX, I doubt there are any more "big names" willing to jump to LIV. 

[johnseg]

Do you think really cares about OWGR points? The more I think about it the more I believe that it is just noise to get the Majors to come up with a LIV criteria for entry. LIV keeps yelling we have good players we need a path and eventually the Majors say the Top 5 LIV players at the end of the season automatically qualify for the next four majors or something akin to that.

 

The fits they are throwing just aren't consistent with trying to work together with the OWGR committee.