Is this Sandbagging?

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Sandbagging often sounds like a conspiracy theory in the forum. 

 

It's just one of those tedious thread subjects which come up all too often. They're a caravan of anecdotes, often from sore losers or from scratch players who're miffed because they enter net events and don't win everything all the time.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

What do I care what they say?

 

I think it's pretty clear to anybody who plays in any net tournaments for some time that sandbagging is rampant either purposefully, and/or current system doesn't work in practicality.

 

 

You provided a solution to a problem. I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) you'd want to share it with a body that can do something about it.

 

Hyperbole much ?

 

I've played net tournaments for many years and have found nothing suggesting sandbagging is even a problem, never mind "rampant".

 

Frankly, as other have mentioned/alluded to, ridiculous "accusations" of sandbagging is what's actually rampant.

 

Guess we just travel in different circles.

 

[mark m]

1 hour ago, Klubster said:

I was speaking in relation to the original post where he stated they do not try as hard and score a couple strokes worse than if they really tried.  Not truly sandbagging. Personally, I would not enjoy playing rounds well below my ability just to pad my handicap for a tournament.

 

You both define what it is, and say that’s not it. The proof would come after when looking at a scoring record. If the scores from comps are all, or the majority of his best scores, there is obviously a problem. Then you can ask him why that is? The action, as Larrybud suggested, the HC would adjust his handicap to one based strictly on his scores from comps (where he tries hard), and disregard his other scores were he isn’t putting in the same effort. For failure to post scores, you post penalty scores. We’ve done it numerous times. This huge Muni course near us just boots them out. No meeting. No questions. And some come our way. Serve in leadership and you will likely encounter this if you have a competitive golf club.

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, Klubster said:

I was speaking in relation to the original post where he stated they do not try as hard and score a couple strokes worse than if they really tried.  Not truly sandbagging. Personally, I would not enjoy playing rounds well below my ability just to pad my handicap for a tournament.

If you are posting scores from rounds where you did not try to record the best score possible, you are 100% a sandbagger. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I can think of two problems...

 

1. Net tournaments. If a tournament is truly net (and not flighted), it gives a HUGE advantage to high-caps. Not any individual high-cap, because more often than not they'll play just as bad as usual. But the variance is huge. In June 2021 I had (as a 24.3) a 10.3 differential. More recently I had as >20 (I don't remember what i was pre-round, I'm down to 19.3 now afterwards) two rounds two apart of 13.6 and 13 differential. As a golfer I have a decent swing and good potential. But I'm inconsistent. If I string together a miracle 18 holes where that inconsistency doesn't manifest, I can shoot a "net 62". Someone who is a low single digit cap isn't going to shoot a net 62. In a net tournament, it's not a matter of sandbaggers, it's that you put a BUNCH of high-caps together, the chances that one of them goes really low net is much larger than that of a low single or plus cap going that low net.  
2. Flighted tournaments. This is where sandbaggers have the bigger advantage. If they can artificially keep their cap high but then play against players who "should" be equal in skill, then they're going to win or get close more often than not. However this shouldn't bother those people who are in the championship flight, because it's a gross tournament at that point. 

 

I think to an extent that anyone posting scores where they're not trying their hardest and may be trying things they wouldn't try under competition conditions is inherently deceptive because those are basically practice rounds by definition. But I think that's ultimately a small problem, especially if they're in social rounds where there's money on the line. 

[Augster]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You do NOT have to post the score of a round you beforehand declare to be a practice round. That has been the consensus on this forum.

 

BUT if you just play with a half set and try to play well you MUST post your scores.

 

I wonder what is unclear here.

I don’t know where you are getting this for the WHS. There is no provision for declaring a “practice round” in the WHS. 
 

Otherwise every good round would be a “practice round” and only bad rounds would get posted. 
 

If you play a round with other people and play by the ROG, you post it. 
 

A “practice round” is when you play by yourself. You do not post those. 
 

But I can not find any provision saying a player can declare a “practice round” before a round and not post.
 

Please link to it.  I’d like to see it.

[Augster]

48 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

It's just one of those tedious thread subjects which come up all too often. They're a caravan of anecdotes, often from sore losers or from scratch players who're miffed because they enter net events and don't win everything all the time.

This 100%. 
 

When was the last time a scratch shot a net 62? Like once in a very long while I’m sure. Or he may never have shot a net 62. 
 

If you have a group of 20 players, all handicaps, the chances of seeing a net 62 become much more likely. 100 golfers? I’d be shocked if there weren’t a couple. 
 

It’s just how the system is designed. Nothing nefarious about it. 

[rogolf]

This is sandbagging....

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/sport/ohio-fishing-tournament-cheating-scandal-trnd/index.html

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Because it's too easy for someone to say "I was not trying my best" and not post good rounds

 

Would not work here as you need to declare your handicap round BEFORE you commence the round.

 

You guys sure have a problem over there...

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, Isaac_Newton said:

Is that in the rules?  If so, I have never seen it.

 

Then you have not read the WHS manual.

 

This issue has been dealt with on this forum several times.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

I don’t know where you are getting this for the WHS. There is no provision for declaring a “practice round” in the WHS. 

 

In our WHS a handicap round needs to be declared before the round commences. Equally you over there can say that I am not playing a handicap round but practicing (this is what you guys have told me on this particular forum.). You cannot make up your mind AFTER the round.

 

Let us picture this. Say I am playing a practice round and shoot 2-3 balls from most of the locations just to try different shot, or drop a ball here and there to try shots from places I did not shoot my ball. If that "trying my best" ? And how would I calculate the score? NDB for each hole? Would that make any sense?? Now THAT would be REAL sandbagging.

 

3 hours ago, Augster said:

If you play a round with other people and play by the ROG, you post it. 

 

Exactly. Practicing the way I described it is not playing by the ROG.

 

Try to think rationally.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

If you have a group of 20 players, all handicaps, the chances of seeing a net 62 become much more likely. 100 golfers? I’d be shocked if there weren’t a couple. 

 

Last Sunday there were 110 competitors at our club and there was one net 63 and the next one was 65. I guess our WHS works more reliably than yours 🤓

[RCGA]

11 hours ago, Krt22 said:

If you are posting scores from rounds where you did not try to record the best score possible, you are 100% a sandbagger. 

 

For me, this would mean warming up before my round, a strict adherence to my pre-shot routine, looking at putts from multiple angles, no booze, etc. 

 

I guess I'm a sandbagger. 

[larrybud]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Last Sunday there were 110 competitors at our club and there was one net 63 and the next one was 65. I guess our WHS works more reliably than yours 🤓

Yeah, something which theoretically should happen 0.02% of the time happened 2% of the time, a scenario which happens 99% of the time!

 

[larrybud]

12 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You provided a solution to a problem. I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) you'd want to share it with a body that can do something about it.

 

I've played net tournaments for many years and have found nothing suggesting sandbagging is even a problem, never mind "rampant".

 

Pretty sure they know my thoughts.

How many net 63s have you seen over those years? I bet in every single tournament. 

[Mr. Bean]

26 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Yeah, something which theoretically should happen 0.02% of the time happened 2% of the time, a scenario which happens 99% of the time!

 

 

I can assure you that we do not see those net 62's very often, in fact, very seldom.

[larrybud]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I can assure you that we do not see those net 62's very often, in fact, very seldom.

You just saw a net 63 and 65 in one tourney! 

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

For me, this would mean warming up before my round, a strict adherence to my pre-shot routine, looking at putts from multiple angles, no booze, etc. 

 

I guess I'm a sandbagger. 

Would you say you consistently shoot better in tournament rounds vs casual rounds?

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, larrybud said:

You just saw a net 63 and 65 in one tourney! 

 

Oh, sorry, I did not understand that you do not know numbers. Ok, I teach you. Number 62 is smaller than 63 or 65. Got it?

[deadsolid...shank]

On 10/3/2022 at 5:32 PM, nsxguy said:

 

You provided a solution to a problem. I assumed (wrongly as it turns out) you'd want to share it with a body that can do something about it.

 

Hyperbole much ?

 

I've played net tournaments for many years and have found nothing suggesting sandbagging is even a problem, never mind "rampant".

 

Frankly, as other have mentioned/alluded to, ridiculous "accusations" of sandbagging is what's actually rampant.

 

Guess we just travel in different circles.

 

I don’t know NX. If you play in the same area for most of your tournament golf, and the same people are winning or placing high almost every tournament……
 

Mid handicaps just don’t play better than their handicap tournament after tournament, year after year. When you can pick the top finishers before a tournament even starts.  
 

I don’t think it’s hyperbole at all. There is a lot it of out there. 

[rogolf]

10 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I don’t know NX. If you play in the same area for most of your tournament golf, and the same people are winning or placing high almost every tournament……
 

Mid handicaps just don’t play better than their handicap tournament after tournament, year after year. When you can pick the top finishers before a tournament even starts.  
 

I don’t think it’s hyperbole at all. There is a lot it of out there. 

If the same people are winning the tournament time after time, the Committee in charge has some options available:

- refuse to accept their entry

- assign them a handicap that the Committee considers appropriate based on their past play.

If the Committee correctly exercises their options, those players usually disappear into the night and are replaced by more legitimate players.

If the Committee chooses to do nothing, expect the same results next time.

Edited October 5, 2022 by rogolf

[deadsolid...shank]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

If the same people are winning the tournament time after time, the Committee in charge has some options available:

- refuse to accept their entry

- assign them a handicap that the Committee considers appropriate based on their past play.

If the Committee correctly exercises their options, those players usually disappear into the night and are replaced by more legitimate players.

If the Committee chooses to do nothing, expect the same results next time.

The private club has actually done that. They told one team (pro am format) that they were welcome to come back and play.  At a 50% handicap reduction. They stopped coming. They’ve done a nice job there, seems most tournaments are now seeing different winners. 
 

The other course where the situation is more prevalent is a public. No committee and the pro has been so hamstrung by the city council over the years that he is just not going to create drama by taking action. The council has had a habit of having golfers coming to them with complaints and then making policy (mainly stuff about tournament and league entries, not so much something individual like a person’s handicap) based on those few. If he tried cutting caps, people would run to them.  Small town living at its best. Entries are understandably down there. 

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, larrybud said:

Pretty sure they know my thoughts.

How many net 63s have you seen over those years? I bet in every single tournament. 

 

You'd lose your bet.

 

Net 63s ?

 

Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,I lead my flight (as a 7 cap) through 3 rounds in '94 Myrtle World Am with nets of 67, 69 & 67. So no net 63s there.

 

Now that was a flighted tournament so no caps over 8 or so so I guess maybe that doesn't count.

 

But let's see now. A net 63 in Stablefords would be about 44/45 points.

 

More recently, last 7 years or so, I've played roughly 140 Stableford single round events. A net 63, ~ 8 under would be 44 or 45 points.

 

Maybe 3 times. And 1 of them the guy thought he had a Canadian handicap and a Thai handicap and used his Thai handicap which was about 7 shots higher than his Canadian handicap.

 

When he explained how he managed 49 points, they allowed the win,,,,,,,, and promptly took him down from his 14 Thai 'cap to his 7 Canadian 'cap.

 

The other 2 were from the same guy over a period of about 3 or 4 rounds. Had a 25 handicap. I played with him a couple of times and frankly, while he hits some decent to pretty good shots, I believed his 25 cap.

 

But they asked him to find another game anyway.

 

 

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I don’t know NX. If you play in the same area for most of your tournament golf, and the same people are winning or placing high almost every tournament……
 

Mid handicaps just don’t play better than their handicap tournament after tournament, year after year. When you can pick the top finishers before a tournament even starts.  
 

I don’t think it’s hyperbole at all. There is a lot it of out there. 

 

Well my friend, lb used the word "rampant".

 

So I looked it up. rampant - " (especially of something unwelcome or unpleasant) flourishing or spreading unchecked.

 

In my small corner of the golf world I don't see it as anywhere near "rampant". Hence the hyperbole.

 

But my golf world is a but tiny piece of the USA. Your world and larrybud's may be different so I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. 👍

 

But if you're playing in the same area for most of your tournament golf, and the same people are winning or placing high almost every tournament, their handicaps HAVE TO be going down.

 

How do they KEEP winning ? How do they play SO much golf that they win tournaments and enter what, 4 high social scores for every tournament round to keep the cap up ?

 

Doesn't the committees know how to kick in the exceptional tournament protections in the WHS ? Don't they peer review these guys ? Surely THEY see the same guys winning as much as you do, no ?

[Mr. Bean]

19 hours ago, RCGA said:

 

For me, this would mean warming up before my round, a strict adherence to my pre-shot routine, looking at putts from multiple angles, no booze, etc. 

 

I guess I'm a sandbagger. 

 

For this reason only competition scores should be accepted as handicap rounds. After all, you need a handicap index only in competitions so it would only be fair that only those have an index who compete actively.

 

Unfortunately even that would not prevent sandbagging altogether but would reduce it considerably and such baggers would be way easier to spot and throw out from competitions (as has happened last year in my country).

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

How do they KEEP winning ? How do they play SO much golf that they win tournaments and enter what, 4 high social scores for every tournament round to keep the cap up ?

 

 

One popular way is only to take part in competitions that do not affect handicap, such as scramble or greensome. We had a great annual greensome competition called Business Golf many years back with four qualifications, domestic final and then the 5 best teams played a real final in Spain, all inclusive trip paid by the organizer. There was this father and son team who travelled to Spain almost every year because they never changed their handicaps. Everybody knew it but it was not against any rule or regulation. Today the Committee of their home club would take actions and redefine their handicaps OR the organizer would not accept them in. 

 

Besides, it is no problem to take part in a one round competition every weekend and play 4 bad rounds during the week. If you compete only every 2nd weekend you have 2 weeks to play those bad rounds. Piece of cake.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[deadsolid...shank]

7 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well my friend, lb used the word "rampant".

 

So I looked it up. rampant - " (especially of something unwelcome or unpleasant) flourishing or spreading unchecked.

 

In my small corner of the golf world I don't see it as anywhere near "rampant". Hence the hyperbole.

 

But my golf world is a but tiny piece of the USA. Your world and larrybud's may be different so I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. 👍

 

But if you're playing in the same area for most of your tournament golf, and the same people are winning or placing high almost every tournament, their handicaps HAVE TO be going down.

 

How do they KEEP winning ? How do they play SO much golf that they win tournaments and enter what, 4 high social scores for every tournament round to keep the cap up ?

 

Doesn't the committees know how to kick in the exceptional tournament protections in the WHS ? Don't they peer review these guys ? Surely THEY see the same guys winning as much as you do, no ?

Sure, everyone sees the same guys winning. It’s why I said you can predict the high finishers before it starts. Also like I said, there is no handicap committee. Just the pro, and he is not going to randomly start making adjustments. Peer review?  Means squat in this day and age of internet posting. People can have whatever handicap they want. And they don’t care if people know. 
 

As to why the handicaps don’t go down, it’s because almost all of the tournaments here are team events. There might be one or two individual stroke play events left in the area any more. So the handicaps all come from casual play. Interestingly enough, most of the problem people don’t even play when it’s individual. I don’t know if it’s rampant or not, that is a fairly subjective descriptor, but it is certainly very evident. 
 

This is a pure, wilda** guess, but I’m guessing this is pretty common in the smaller, especially rural, public course communities. 

[larrybud]

17 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Oh, sorry, I did not understand that you do not know numbers. Ok, I teach you. Number 62 is smaller than 63 or 65. Got it?

 

I'm sorry you didn't understand the point. How many of your 2 indexes shot a net 63 and 65 recently? 

 

Zero. and in fact, probably in the entire history of your club, it's been zero.

 

Now compare that to 20s doing the same thing.

 

(BTW, my example of specific "2" and "20" is just that, an example, with the point that no low handicapper is going to shoot mid 60s net. ever).

 

[larrybud]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Hmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,I lead my flight (as a 7 cap) through 3 rounds in '94 Myrtle World Am with nets of 67, 69 & 67. So no net 63s there.

 

 

Now it's all making sense... 

 

[cardoustie]

In 21 years at my club ….. I won a Wed major night once as a 3 cap …. 4 majors a year obviously

 

had to shoot 68 for a net 65, I’ve only shot in the 60’s 8 times total in 20+ years (course is 73.8/140)

 

this year the winners were all 61 or 62 … total BS …. All high guys … 17 cap shooting 78 etc.

 

sadly, same thing last 3 or 4 years 

 

IMO, far too many guys play with their pals and bend the rules … fluffing, mulligans, raking putts, give me a 6 etc