Let's talk 3 jacks!... who's fault is it?

[TravAz]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:02 PM, MtlJayMan said:

...but one could argue that the far better strategy to make sure you minimize three putt occurence is to boost up your 6 footers make rate... 

I think you are 100% correct here - and I think your time should be weighted towards MAKING 6 foot putts instead of lag speed (MISSING) 30 foot+  putts if for no other reason than confidence. I.e. to your hypothetical 30 mins a day of practice time I would rather spend 25 mins watching\hearing the ball go into the hole and 5 mins practicing lag speed. I think this would have a knock on effect on 8, 12, 15 footers as well. 

 

[Krt22]

49 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

He's comparing the SG of the first putt to the 2nd putt, which is what you're doing as well. 

Think of it this way. If you leave a 33 ft putt 6 feet away, do you think that's a better or worse first putt than if you leave it 1 foot away? That's what he's trying to measure.

That part I get/got, it was the weighting of which was better/worse. Mathematically missing a 6footer represents a bigger "loss" than leaving a 33footer 6 ft short, which begs the question should he work more on making more 6 footers or work more on lagging it closer

[TLUBulldogGolf]

4 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

 

Nerdy guy to the rescue again... and based on my own game (statistically insignificant for sure)

 

These is a clear gap in being able to get it inside 3ft versus get it inside 6ft once the putt is in the 30s footers (and even a tad bigger once it gets to 40+)... 61% vs 87%; thus some work there for sure

 

Also, my make rate from 3ft is 93% and from 6ft it's 49% (not inside of this, but at that marker - since I didn't want to miggle in all tap ins)... so a 44% gap in make rate between these 2 distances...

 

Combine these two and you can really see the importance of becoming a better lag guy... but, all of this is related to 3 putts per round of 30+ ft... is there a lot to gain from this?... I don't know

 

Meanwhile - would it be wiser to try and up my 49% make rate from 6ft... since I get between 4 to 6 putts of these per round?... I don't know

 

... I'm surely better off working on ball striking

Even if you up your make rate I can’t see improving it to the point of even making 1 more a round. I also think there are other positive effects of improving speed control that would be reflected in other areas of your putting.

[PracticeSwinger]

13 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Even if you up your make rate I can’t see improving it to the point of even making 1 more a round. I also think there are other positive effects of improving speed control that would be reflected in other areas of your putting.

Sound advice - seems like all we can do is put a good consistent stroke on the ball (mechanics : face/path, loft, tempo) that minimize mishits and thus help with speed control, master our green reading skills for that desired speed and hope that the hole gets in the way

[MelloYello]

I'm a believer in the idea that speed control is something that comes pretty naturally to those who can stand still and make good contact with a good stroke. Putting is creative in the sense that virtually all distances have to be conjured up from one's imagination through "touch" and "feel." 

 

Personally, I prefer to see people master start line. I think speed control is basically "touch" and it comes as a matter of instinct and spatial awareness. The more one has refined their motion, the more one is able to express their inherent instinct. And the more one is able to "see" where the hole is (in their imagination), the better they'll be able to roll the ball the appropriate distance.  

 

There's nothing wrong with deliberately practicing distance control (to provide your brain some experience with strokes of varying length), but mastering the ability to start the ball on line is key to the physical act of putting and that's best seen in whether or not shorter putts are hitting the hole. 

 

 

In essence what this means is that the same people who struggle to make the clutch 6-footers are the folks who struggle to lag it close in the first place. To me, putting is a singular motion and bad putters are bad everywhere on the green.

 

There's not really any such thing as being good from long range and bad up close or vice versa.

 

Long and short putting kind of go hand in hand. Seeing a decline in any area is a sign there's something wrong with the setup & the motion (assuming one has spent a reasonable amount of time with the putter in hand practicing all facets of the putting game). 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by MelloYello

[Anthony Stevens]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:14 AM, Krt22 said:

There is one crazy poster on here that didn't believe this stance. He dug in HARD and said every missed putt can be attributed to lack of skill lol. 

 

I think I remember that guy. "If you hit the putt on the right line with the right speed it will go in, BY DEFINITION". lol

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, Anthony Stevens said:

 

I think I remember that guy. "If you hit the putt on the right line with the right speed it will go in, BY DEFINITION". lol

And if it doesn't go in, well you simply didn't pick the right line or the right speed, practice more! 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

I'm a believer in the idea that speed control is something that comes pretty naturally to those who can stand still and make good contact with a good stroke. Putting is creative in the sense that virtually all distances have to be conjured up from one's imagination through "touch" and "feel." 

 

Personally, I prefer to see people master start line. I think speed control is basically "touch" and it comes as a matter of instinct and spatial awareness. The more one has refined their motion, the more one is able to express their inherent instinct. And the more one is able to "see" where the hole is (in their imagination), the better they'll be able to roll the ball the appropriate distance.  

 

There's nothing wrong with deliberately practicing distance control (to provide your brain some experience with strokes of varying length), but mastering the ability to start the ball on line is key to the physical act of putting and that's best seen in whether or not shorter putts are hitting the hole. 

 

 

In essence what this means is that the same people who struggle to make the clutch 6-footers are the folks who struggle to lag it close in the first place. To me, putting is a singular motion and bad putters are bad everywhere on the green.

 

There's not really any such thing as being good from long range and bad up close or vice versa.

 

Long and short putting kind of go hand in hand. Seeing a decline in any area is a sign there's something wrong with the setup & the motion (assuming one has spent a reasonable amount of time with the putter in hand practicing all facets of the putting game). 

 

 

Agree with you except -  what about reads.  
 

i hit my mark , line or target a ton. Which can only be misreads. It’s so bad that a playing partner had a 3 hole rant about how he’s never played with anyone who burns more edges than me. This started after my 4th burnt edge of the day looped and came back to me.    
 

the rub  in this is. I’ve tried to take what I read , and move it in an inch at a time.  Guess what.  Then I burn the lower lip.      So is it a speed thing or a read thing ?  Don’t know.  

Edited October 6, 2022 by bladehunter

[MelloYello]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree with you except -  what about reads.  
 

i hit my mark , line or target a ton. Which can only be misreads. It’s so bad that a playing partner had a 3 hole rant about how he’s never played with anyone who burns more edges than me. This started after my 4th burnt edge of the day looped and came back to me.    
 

the rub  in this is. I’ve tried to take what I read , and move it in an inch at a time.  Guess what.  Then I burn the lower lip.      So is it a speed thing or a read thing ?  Don’t know.  

 

Yeah, good point. It's tough to say but you might agree with me here, too. I would say that everyone has a unique speed they prefer (or at least default to) somewhere between dying it and charging it. 

 

It stands to reason that if your brain reads the green assuming a certain type of roll (e.g. firmer, more confident speeds) and you tend to die things in (maybe due to nerves), you'll miss a lot at close range and lip out more often than you should. 

 

I purposefully spend time practicing matching speed & line. If you're 10-ft away in a place of minimal break, it's safe to say the read is fine. It's whether or not you can hit the putt at the speed required to match that line. This is especially true of people who are bad at short putts (3-footers). Rarely are these types making confident strokes and hitting the back of the hole. 

 

That's a distinct skill and something which I bet is mismatched in a lot of players. 

 

Personally, I find I hit most putts inside 10-ft a bit too softly. I almost always putt better when I counter my tendency to baby shorter putts. 

 

Or a better way of saying it is that when my putts start to miss it's almost always to do with not hitting them quite hard enough. Part of that is trusting the line/read, too. It's no easy task to be good all the time. There's a natural ebb and flow. 

 

.

Edited October 6, 2022 by MelloYello

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, MelloYello said:

 

Yeah, good point. It's tough to say but you might agree with me here, too. I would say that everyone has a unique speed they prefer (or at least default to) somewhere between dying it and charging it. 

 

It stands to reason that if your brain reads the green assuming a certain type of roll (i.e. firmer speeds) and you tend to die things in, you'll miss a lot at close range and lip out more often than you should. 

 

I purposefully spend time practicing matching speed & line. If you're 10-ft away in a place of minimal break, it's safe to say the read is fine. It's whether or not you can hit the putt at the speed required to match that line. 

 

That's a distinct skill and something which I bet is mismatched in a lot of players. 

 

Personally, I find I hit most putts inside 10-ft a bit too softly. I almost always putt better when I counter my tendency to baby shorter putts. 

Yep. Good point.  On days whne I make them all. I’m dying them in the hole on the last role.
 

most days I’m hitting it 18 inches by.  And that’s the lip burning days. And they are many.  But even worse is whne I get to the point where I’m not getting 10 footers to the hole.  That’s the “ I hope I can lag this 8 footer “ days.  No fun.  And that happens whne the speed becomes unmanageable.  And with me. That’s usually on slow greens. Not fast. The more hit I have to add. The worse I can feel the speed.  

[MelloYello]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. Good point.  On days whne I make them all. I’m dying them in the hole on the last role.
 

most days I’m hitting it 18 inches by.  And that’s the lip burning days. And they are many.  But even worse is whne I get to the point where I’m not getting 10 footers to the hole.  That’s the “ I hope I can lag this 8 footer “ days.  No fun.  And that happens whne the speed becomes unmanageable.  And with me. That’s usually on slow greens. Not fast. The more hit I have to add. The worse I can feel the speed.  

 

Yeah, I hear that complaint all the time. Those who are used to making soft strokes and dying it in on fast greens are in a living heck when the greens slow down. They just don't have the stroke for it. 

 

I'm the opposite. I tend to putt better when I have something (such as slow greens) that gives me the confidence to ram it in, because I don't naturally do that. I leave way too many good reads short out of caution. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

15 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree with you except -  what about reads.  
 

i hit my mark , line or target a ton. Which can only be misreads. It’s so bad that a playing partner had a 3 hole rant about how he’s never played with anyone who burns more edges than me. This started after my 4th burnt edge of the day looped and came back to me.    
 

the rub  in this is. I’ve tried to take what I read , and move it in an inch at a time.  Guess what.  Then I burn the lower lip.      So is it a speed thing or a read thing ?  Don’t know.  

If you are hitting your line then it’s probably a combination or they are mismatched. 

[RichieHunt]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:10 AM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I never understood the 3 foot circle thing. I don't care if it's a 90 foot putt, I'm trying to hole it. 

 

Absolutely agree.  Try to make everything and if you miss a small target, then your misses are small as well.

The entire Fractional Remaining Length isn't about just trying to get it within that distance, it's more about understanding realistic expectations.  Hitting a 60-foot putt to 6-feet and 3-putting doesn't necessarily mean your putting sucks.  The 60-foot putt to 6-feet is a good putt as the average Tour player only has a 2% make percentage, 74% 2-putt percentage and 24% 3-putt percenage.  And data has shown that getting it to 6-feet (from 60-feet) is performing better than the average Tour pro from that distance.

 

And from 6-feet, the average Tour pro makes those putts only 65% of the time.  

 

In this case, it was the fact that you left yourself a 60-foot putt  that played a bigger role in the 3-putt being more likely to occur, not the actual skill with the putter.

 

And if it was an eagle putt from 60-feet on a driveable par-4 or reachable par-5, then you just ran into a little bit of randomness/bad luck  If it was on a par-4 or par-3, then it was really more of a ballstriking 3-putt.

 

 

 

 

RH

[larrybud]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:44 PM, Trippels said:

Better ballstriking and better lag putting would reduce length of first putts and second putts respectively, both reducing the number of 6 foot putts needed.

 

While that's true, ball striking doesn't make one a better putter.

[RichieHunt]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:14 PM, Krt22 said:

There is one crazy poster on here that didn't believe this stance. He dug in HARD and said every missed putt can be attributed to lack of skill lol. 

 

I guess technically that can be true, but a golfer could perform every skill involved with putting to a perfect degree and still miss a putt.  I'm sure if you had Pelz's 'Perfy' machine along with PuttView...even on an indoor putting green surface, long putts (25+ feet) would still be missed.  Particularly if the putting mat was outside as the wind would cause variances.

 

 

 

RH

[Krt22]

6 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

 

but a golfer could perform every skill involved with putting to a perfect degree and still miss a putt. 

 

 

 

RH

100%. If you want them stimp a green it is very easy to see why that is the case. Not to mention the "perfect" line changes over time, because greens change over time.  Short term change due to the nature of growing grass and long term change due to the contours actually changing due to foot traffic, moisture, sand from bunkers, etc. The greens books are redone every 2 years to account for these long term changes

[PracticeSwinger]

13 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

The entire Fractional Remaining Length isn't about just trying to get it within that distance, it's more about understanding realistic expectations.  Hitting a 60-foot putt to 6-feet and 3-putting doesn't necessarily mean your putting sucks.  The 60-foot putt to 6-feet is a good putt as the average Tour player only has a 2% make percentage, 74% 2-putt percentage and 24% 3-putt percenage.  And data has shown that getting it to 6-feet (from 60-feet) is performing better than the average Tour pro from that distance.

 

And from 6-feet, the average Tour pro makes those putts only 65% of the time.  

 

In this case, it was the fact that you left yourself a 60-foot putt  that played a bigger role in the 3-putt being more likely to occur, not the actual skill with the putter.

100% - if you have a 60-foot putt... for the previous shot to be a good one, SG wise... it has to be either: at least a 230yds Par3 or from 200yds in the fairway, 155yds in the rough, 75yds in a bunker... any shot that was inside that distance (lie dependant) was the one that cost you on the field and not the subsequent 60-footer to 6ft

[wagolfer7]

19 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

If you are hitting your line then it’s probably a combination or they are mismatched. 

 

It's possible there is spin on the ball as well.  You'd still hit your starting line, but it would change how much break occurs.  If it's a consistent issue, that's what I'd be looking at. 

 

I'd say misses 6 feet and in would be more mechanical than reads if you consistently miss.  Hard to misread putts consistently at that length especially if your talking about your home course.    

[PracticeSwinger]

5 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

I'd say misses 6 feet and in would be more mechanical than reads if you consistently miss.  Hard to misread putts consistently at that length especially if your talking about your home course.    

Seeing that there is an approximative 10% gap in make rate from Tour pros to scratch guys for every putt inside 6ft (excluding tap ins)... would you say the major difference comes from the mechanical aspect of the stroke? or else?... I don't know, just curious... (given that Tour players putt on uber fast and slicks greens, that are in perfect shape though)

[Krt22]

7 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Seeing that there is an approximative 10% gap in make rate from Tour pros to scratch guys for every putt inside 6ft (excluding tap ins)... would you say the major difference comes from the mechanical aspect of the stroke? or else?... I don't know, just curious... (given that Tour players putt on uber fast and slicks greens, that are in perfect shape though)

Im sure some of it is stroke, but a scratch golfer typically will roll it well. Broadie says the skill gap between a scratch golfer and a pro is the smallest with the putter. The rest is practice time and surface quality IMHO. I didn't keep stats but I know my make rate went up when I joined my club that has bent greens vs slow poa at the local public tracks

[wagolfer7]

8 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Seeing that there is an approximative 10% gap in make rate from Tour pros to scratch guys for every putt inside 6ft (excluding tap ins)... would you say the major difference comes from the mechanical aspect of the stroke? or else?... I don't know, just curious... (given that Tour players putt on uber fast and slicks greens, that are in perfect shape though)

 

I'm not sure to be honest.  I was referring more to if you are consistently missing inside of 6ft, then I'd say it's more mechanical than reading greens.  

 

I have a hard time comparing scratch to PGA player stats.  PGA players are playing new courses every week that are setup difficult and greens are fast.  Scratch golfer data I'm assuming is from regular scratch amateurs that play the majority of their rounds at their home course.  And that's a huge gap in my opinion.  Compare a scratch golfer to the level of +6 or better.  There's a noticeable gap in all areas of the game there.    

 

I've seen many scratch golfers struggle on my home course during tournaments.  Our greens get to at least a 12 for tourneys and it will absolutely wreck guys that don't have experience with that.  Yes it's easier to putt on true, fast greens.  But it's also easier to leave yourself a longer comeback and it's difficult for golfers to adjust their stroke to accommodate for faster greens. Even though my home course rolled better, it took me a while to adjust to the speed and maintain a true roll.  Inside 6 feet and I think it's way easier to put on slower greens, because speed helps hold your line. 

 

I guess my point is - if you put scratch golfers on PGA tour greens - that gap would be larger.  I would guess that a majority of public courses stimp at much less than 12 and the scratch golfers make % at 6 feet and in would go down noticeably.  Simply because slower greens make it easier to hold line with a faulty stroke because you can make up some of the margin of error with more speed.    

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

It's possible there is spin on the ball as well.  You'd still hit your starting line, but it would change how much break occurs.  If it's a consistent issue, that's what I'd be looking at. 

 

I'd say misses 6 feet and in would be more mechanical than reads if you consistently miss.  Hard to misread putts consistently at that length especially if your talking about your home course.    

That’s a great point.  I tend to miss high more often with a putter such as a lab mezz or DF2.1 tjat puts a perfect roll on the ball , vs a blade where I tend to hook them in.  Which is best ?  Perfect roll or made putts. 😂

[wagolfer7]

40 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

That’s a great point.  I tend to miss high more often with a putter such as a lab mezz or DF2.1 tjat puts a perfect roll on the ball , vs a blade where I tend to hook them in.  Which is best ?  Perfect roll or made putts. 😂

 

Well that's the issue right there.  You don't have enough putters in your arsenal 😛  

 

Curious question.....what's your normal ball flight on full shots?  

[bladehunter]

25 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Well that's the issue right there.  You don't have enough putters in your arsenal 😛  

 

Curious question.....what's your normal ball flight on full shots?  

Draw.  I hit it both ways.and pretty straight  But it favors falling left , unless I intentionally fade it.  

[Nard_S]

On 10/3/2022 at 3:02 PM, MtlJayMan said:

but one could argu that the far better strategy to make sure you minimize three putt occurence is to boost up your 6 footers make rate... not sure it's earth shattering - but the default tip everywhere to 'work on 3putt avoidance' has always been on distance control rather than practising a lot from short range to make sure you close these one out... Am I way off base here?

Sort of because being good at 6 feet is the same skill as being good at 60. Speed is 70%-80% of putting. Line is function of speed and it's mostly how Pro players approach putting.  You can reverse the priority and say it's about seeing the line, but "line" is a literally a spot a few feet in front of ball and without complete speed command that is useless. At 6 feet there might be several lines. Same at 60. Ball striking is not exclusive to GIR shots or tee shots. 3 degrees off on driver, you hit rough, 3 degrees off on putter or off by 3 inches per sec and you missed a 4 foot putt. How does GIR average and proximity fix that? It doesn't.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Nard_S

[PracticeSwinger]

6 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Sort of because being good at 6 feet is the same skill as being good at 60. Speed is 70%-80% of putting.

I lean the same way - but playing devil's advocate just for the sake of discussion... looking at PGA stats from the whole 2022 season; since there are a few more putts from the 4to8 ft range than there are from the 25+ft range (not even talking 30+ or 60+ here)... guys only have 3.3 putts of over 25ft per round... and since the make rate gap from 4-8ft is the widest (from 58 to 78%)... wouldn't you be better off becoming a god from that range, perfecting your speed (1st) and line for that speed to gain an advantage on your peers?... and as an aside, that speed control from 4-8 would trickle down all the way through the distances...

[JayMas]

I'd focus more on the 3 ft circle concept and improved lag putting vs. the make more 6ft concept. Even PGA tour pros, the difference in one-putting from 6ft vs. 3ft is like 30% difference (60 something to 90 something percent). Add to that the pressure of the 6 footer to avoid the 3-putt and the margin for error being smaller (get inside a 3 ft circle vs. make it), I think the strategy is clear here.

Edited October 7, 2022 by JayMas

[PracticeSwinger]

Trying to put this one to rest, since the idea was to figure out if we had been brainwahed from the general instruction of lagging it inside 3ft for 3 putt avoidance - from a purely numbers point of view and plotting the difference in #putts for a combo of: increasing your % of lag putts that gets inside 3 feet (better lagger) versus inscreasing your make rate from the 6ftish range (better saver)... there is a very slight edge to become a better lagger - i'm talking decimals here... so, you're better off increasing by 10% your number of putts that ends up inside 3 feet, rather than increasing by 10% your make rate from 6ft... especially since the former seems to be more attainable

 

(as an aside, was really surprised to see that almost 20% of PGA guys 3putts in 2022 came from a first putt distance of inside 25 feet...) 

[Nard_S]

3 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

wouldn't you be better off becoming a god from that range, perfecting your speed (1st) and line for that speed to gain an advantage on your peers?... and as an aside, that speed control from 4-8 would trickle down all the way through the distances...

Yeah agree. Not sure if focus needs to be specific range though. I think varying the pace from a range like 4-8 is great practice. The ability to die it or bang it at will is under rated. I'm always impressed with how much pace PGA guys drop 6 footers. Don't really see that on Sundays. Might spend 3/4 of putt and chip practice on distance control. It then all comes back to super consistent stroke, which bleeds back to control at any distance. If you can identify how the setup effects visual skew, dialing in target line is pretty easy in comparison. 

[bluedot]

22 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

While that's true, ball striking doesn't make one a better putter.

Well, yes and no...

 

Better ball striking doesn't make your putting stroke any better, or your green reading, or your speed control.

 

But better ball striking DOES change the difficulty to the first putt, whether it's from 6' or 30'.  Most of the posts on this thread have sort of assumed that the 30' putt that a Tour pro faces (or a 6 footer, for that matter) is the same as the 30' putt that an amateur faces, and that is simply 100% wrong.  Tour pros control their misses much better/differently than ams; they don't usually miss above the hole, or on the wrong level, etc.  Their leaves are just better.  A LOT better...

 

So when we see in Broadie's research that the Tour average make rate on 6' putts is 66%, and you know that YOUR average is less than 50%, if you draw the conclusion that you are losing strokes because you don't make enough 6 footers, you may be misusing Broadie's work.  Not all 6' putts are created equally, and this is even more true with 30' putts; there is a VERY good chance that the 30' putt a Tour pro faces is a MUCH easier putt than the 30' putt an am will typically face.

 

And this is what always bothers me in threads about how to use SG data that Broadie and others have compiled.  That data is descriptive, not prescriptive; it's up to YOU to figure out what the data means for YOUR game, and that takes some work.  SG is a macro look at what separates better golfers from lesser golfers at ALL levels of the game, but how it applies to your game is a micro issue that you have to figure out. 

 

If Tour pros miss a third of their 6' putts, despite talent, coaching, perfect greens, constant practice, and often a straighter, flatter putt to begin with, then thinking that constant practice on 6' putts is a way forward FOR YOU is only going to be successful if you are already an excellent putter AND if you manage you ball well enough to have your 6' putts be comparable to a Tour pro in terms of difficulty.

 

To unpack that a bit farther, if your average leave on a GIR is 30', and you three putt several times a round, does that mean that better lag putting from 30' is the best way forward FOR YOU?  Not necessarily, depending on what the 30 footers you face are like.  It may well be that improving your ball striking enough to make the 30' an easier putt is the better answer.

 

Last Saturday on the 18th hole, my drive didn't draw and was just far enough to the right to bring a big tree into play for my approach. I tried to cut a PW into a right middle pin, but double crossed it and hit on the backside of a downslope on the green, ending up 50' away with an extremely difficult putt; uphill, then downhill, with about 5' of break.  I hit an ok first putt, but I left myself a 5' downhill slider, which I missed.  A three jack...

 

But none of that was about putting; I hit a poor tee shot, and an even worse approach.  If I addressed my bogey by working on either lag putting or 5 footers because of Broadie's putting data, then I'd be misusing the data.